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EK From Korea To Brazil/Argentina  
User currently onlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 52
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 14331 times:
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Just came across an interesting picture of an Emirates ad in Seoul that advertises their flights to GRU, GIG and EZE. Does EK actually carry a lot of traffic between East Asia and South America? Where does most of the feed come from on DXB-GRU?

Would you consider EK as a viable option to get from East Asia to South America?

Here's the pic:

http://postfiles2.naver.net/20111206...460bhiK8_JPEG/P1050217.JPG?type=w1


The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebeowulf From Singapore, joined Jul 2003, 734 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14297 times:

Your link doesn't work properly.

Back to your question. Going via DXB might be a quicker way than going first to Europe and then to those destinations. Also, the Pacific route is not that favorable I believe.


User currently offlineEightball From Saudi Arabia, joined Oct 2007, 281 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14176 times:

Quoting beowulf (Reply 1):
Also, the Pacific route is not that favorable I believe.

For travel from South Korea to Brazil, going via DXB is quicker than going via a transpacific route. For example, ICN-DXB-GRU is quicker than ICN-LAX-GRU.



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User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17481 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14155 times:

The market is small but growing. EK gets a decent stab at it, but it's fairly fragmented between connections over Europe, North America, and the Middle East. There are currently plenty of connections over Europe that are shorter elapsed time than DXB, so EK doesn't have any particularly strong advantage.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13739 times:

Oh yes. Transferring via the middle east is better for most of East Asia due to the location + I believe a portion of passengers transferring via the US would require a transit visa (passport holders from a selection of east asia and south american countries?).

EK is definitely a player for say ex-SIN and ex-HKG. I have done a search on the flights before from these cities.

However, despite this and all of the feed from South Asia, it is a very long sector and all three (EK, QR, EY) are committed to it, so there will be some competition. I'd also note that for North East Asia it is actually better to transfer in Europe location wise. This is the reason behind PEK-MAD-GRU by CA. Transferring via the ME is actually the further away option.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1720 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13366 times:

Japan-Brazil route and Korea-Brazil routes were usually very profitable routes, Air France used to make a lot of money out os this routes so i´m sure EK is doing good.

KE flies or used to fly (i´m not sure if they still do) ICN-LAX-GRU, and soon they are starting ICN-NBO and KQ is starting also NBO-GRU.... so i think they are looking to offer also this option to travellers via a big Skyteam hub.

Actually all the options are almost the same distance but maybe connecting via Dubai is the easiest one and more comfortable, better than LAX, CDG and FRA.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13237 times:

According to data available, the top markets for EK on the GRU route for the past year are as follows:

DXB
PVG
PEK
HKG
BOM
MNL
CAN
BKK
DEL
CGK
SIN
BLR
KUL

[Edited 2012-06-26 00:45:36]

User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11951 times:

Quoting Eightball (Reply 2):
For travel from South Korea to Brazil, going via DXB is quicker than going via a transpacific route. For example, ICN-DXB-GRU is quicker than ICN-LAX-GRU.

No it is not.

On EK the ICN departure is 11:55 pm and the GRU arrival is 4:30 pm the next day. Add in 12 hours of time zones one gets 28:35 h.

On KE the ICN departure is 9:35 pm and the GRU arrival is 10:45 am the next day. Total 25:10 h.

The timings and the elapsed time difference are significant. Flying in on KE in a premium cabin it is possible to arrive at GRU and have a meeting scheduled for 1 pm. Flying in on EK means work only starts the next day.



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User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5454 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

Flying from East Asia to South America, because those areas are roughly halfway around the world from each other, you can fly west or east sensibly. It's a good market for EK to muscle into.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
The timings and the elapsed time difference are significant. Flying in on KE in a premium cabin it is possible to arrive at GRU and have a meeting scheduled for 1 pm. Flying in on EK means work only starts the next day.

People always say things like this, but does anyone really do it when the trip is this long? I'd be committing malpractice if I tried to represent clients in a meeting immediately following 27 hours of travel.

[Edited 2012-06-26 07:50:36]

User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10740 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
On EK the ICN departure is 11:55 pm and the GRU arrival is 4:30 pm the next day. Add in 12 hours of time zones one gets 28:35 h.

On KE the ICN departure is 9:35 pm and the GRU arrival is 10:45 am the next day. Total 25:10 h.

The timings and the elapsed time difference are significant. Flying in on KE in a premium cabin it is possible to arrive at GRU and have a meeting scheduled for 1 pm. Flying in on EK means work only starts the next day.

KE only offers 3x weekly services which limits the flexibility it can offer to pax. And they only serve GRU in the continent. EK serve not only GRU but GIG and EZE which spare pax heading to these destinations of another connection (at GRU).

ICN-GRU:
KE - KE061 - ICN 2135 1045 GRU - 25h10 - MoWeFr (Stops at LAX)

EK - EK323 - ICN 2355 0425 DXB // DXB 0835 1630 GRU - 28h35 - DAILY

Delta via DTW takes 26h, LH via FRA 27h and QR via DOH 27h35. So EK isn't even the second fastest option and all of the offerings (except KE's) are daily flights.

ICN-GIG
EK takes 26h35, AF 28h and that's it. The other options involve a combination of airlines.

ICN-EZE
LH takes 28h50, EK 31h40 and QR 31h55.

So I guess that as far as GIG is concerned EK provides great advantage from ICN specially due to the lack of competition. At GRU the competition is stiff (and will get worse with EY entering the market). At EZE EK already faces its nemesis: QR.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlinedynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1865 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10576 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 7):
No it is not.

On EK the ICN departure is 11:55 pm and the GRU arrival is 4:30 pm the next day. Add in 12 hours of time zones one gets 28:35 h.

On KE the ICN departure is 9:35 pm and the GRU arrival is 10:45 am the next day. Total 25:10 h.

The timings and the elapsed time difference are significant. Flying in on KE in a premium cabin it is possible to arrive at GRU and have a meeting scheduled for 1 pm. Flying in on EK means work only starts the next day.

Partially true. But you're comparing KE's eastbound flight (with tailwinds) against EK's westbound flight (against winds). On the returning journey, the total elapsed time is about the same. EK has long layovers at DXB both ways. For some people this is not always a minus.

More importantly, KE's flight is only three times a week while EK's is daily. For a businessman, not being restricted to which day one can travel is probably much more important than being able to make an afternoon meeting or not.

It is also a hassle that some people might need a transit visa at LAX to take the KE flight between ICN and GRU.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10442 times:

Quoting dynkrisolo (Reply 10):
Partially true. But you're comparing KE's eastbound flight (with tailwinds) against EK's westbound flight (against winds). On the returning journey, the total elapsed time is about the same

I just provided evidence that am inacurate statement was made. Nothing had been said about the return trip or travel hassles or frequency.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
People always say things like this, but does anyone really do it when the trip is this long? I'd be committing malpractice if I tried to represent clients in a meeting immediately following 27 hours of travel.

People have different jobs, priorities, flexibility and tolerance for air travel and swapping time zones. I just had a friend travel JFK-GRU overnight coach (J was booked up) and travel back in J without spending a single night in SP. She worked all day in SP. She's got two kids and didn't have the flexibility to travel a day earlier. She landed in NY and took the day off. If she could not do this she would have already quit her job.



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User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5454 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10224 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 11):
People have different jobs, priorities, flexibility and tolerance for air travel and swapping time zones. I just had a friend travel JFK-GRU overnight coach (J was booked up) and travel back in J without spending a single night in SP. She worked all day in SP.

Coming off a 10-hour flight and immediately working is very different than coming off two flights lasting a total of 26-28 hours -- also after leaving in the evening -- and working. I could see doing the first in a pinch, especially if flying in J. I could absolutely not do the second, and my feeling is that anyone who thinks he or she can is creating a liability for the employer.

[Edited 2012-06-26 09:28:44]

[Edited 2012-06-26 09:30:28]

User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10135 times:
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For a South American going to Asia avoiding the hassles of getting a transit visa to connect via LAX or DTW is probably worth it. Besides about $120.00 in fees to the US consulate, you have to personally go to the US consulate for an interview, and the consulate only has interview sessions between 8 am and 11 am. And whether travelling through Dubai is 1 to 3 hours longer than taking Korean through LAX or Delta through DTW, you also get a nice block of time to stretch ones legs at DXB--certainly more pleasant than LAX, and probably better than DTW.


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10065 times:
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The fact the US mandates a transit visa should take KE and DL out of the running for those business people who need to travel between S.American and Korea.

The added hassle of going to a U.S. Consulate for a "personal interview" and also paying $120 in fees for the "privilege" of changing planes seems silly.


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9945 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 13):
For a South American going to Asia avoiding the hassles of getting a transit visa to connect via LAX or DTW is probably worth it. Besides about $120.00 in fees to the US consulate, you have to personally go to the US consulate for an interview, and the consulate only has interview sessions between 8 am and 11 am.

Precisely and that undermines KE's services to GRU. That and the 3x weekly schedule. Pax needing more flexibility, flying to places other than GRU (GIG, EZE, SCL for instance) and those without US visas will take their money to other airlines such as EK, QR, AF, KL, LH, BA and even JJ and LA who offer asian connections though alliance partners in Europe.

The need for a US visa even for transit pax is said to be one of the factores that killed JL's GRU services as well since it stopped at JFK.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9925 times:

There's also Turkish Airlines ICN-IST-GRU for those who want to accrue Star Alliance miles but avoid LH

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13107 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9613 times:
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Quoting behramjee (Reply 6):
DXB
PVG
PEK
HKG
BOM
MNL
CAN
BKK
DEL
CGK
SIN
BLR
KUL
Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 14):
The added hassle of going to a U.S. Consulate for a "personal interview" and also paying $120 in fees for the "privilege" of changing planes seems silly.

Why do we do that to people? I realize 9/11, but it is killing international hubbing in the USA.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 13):
And whether travelling through Dubai is 1 to 3 hours longer than taking Korean through LAX or Delta through DTW, you also get a nice block of time to stretch ones legs at DXB--certainly more pleasant than LAX, and probably better than DTW.

Not to mention, as you alluded, the time to do that interview. 1 to 3 hours is nothing for that long of a trip. However, if the person doesn't have lounge access, the experience at DTW should be a little less crowded than DXB. Until Concourse 3 opens.   The comfort of DXB cycles. Its great when new space opens and then as traffic increases it goes towards crowded. I've been reading the trip reports and the concourses are getting quite crowded (but the lounges seem nice). With the opening of concourse 3 and its two transit hotels, the experience will be roomy again at DXB.

Then the cycle repeats, until the opening of the next concourse...
Then we wait for EK to transfer to DWC. Due to the costs, I expect that to be delayed.
So the question becomes, how is TK doing competing?   
I only see San Paulo on TK's South American route map. Did I miss others? Or is this somewhere TK should grow?   


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9276 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
I only see San Paulo on TK's South American route map. Did I miss others? Or is this somewhere TK should grow?

No you don't. They only serve GRU so far. EZE is rumoured to be next as a tagon from GRU. If you ask me TK should consider GIG as well specially due to the strong economical expansion the city faces.



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13107 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8486 times:
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Whenever I hear of EK to Brazil, I wonder when GRU will see the A380. IMHO, GRU will see the A380 before my home airport of LAX.   But then again, so should IAH and those A380s will not be delivered until sometime next year...

Quoting AF086 (Reply 18):
EZE is rumoured to be next as a tagon from GRU. If you ask me TK should consider GIG as well specially due to the strong economical expansion the city faces.

I 100% agree. I was surprised not to see either EZE or GIG from IST on TK's route map. I'll let those at TK who have more information than I do make that decision. But further South American expansion is in order.

The EK vs TK vs QR vs EY is going to be interesting over the next decade. If the new 5-runway Istanbul airport is built, I see TK having the advantage in growth.

Right now IST has the advantage of 185 connected cities to 175 at DXB (see updated post #29)
Airports With Greatest Number Of Connected Cities (by lightsaber May 14 2012 in Aviation Polls)

Since this is an EK thread, it seems like they would have expansion opportunities to South America. MIA, MEX, or PTY would be my guesses for further expansion. Yes, MIA would only be for the hubbing, so it would be a question if IB/AA would want the business. I'm not sure who EK would partner with at MEX today... but PTY could also be an opportunity.

With both IST and DXB, I see numerous cities in China that I believe are past due for connections. Is it a bilateral issue? Any links are appreciated.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Since this is an EK thread, it seems like they would have expansion opportunities to South America.

I see SCL, BOG and LIM as natural new destinations for EK in South America. SCL probably cannot be made nonstop (it's 700nm longer than DXB-LAX) but it could be served as a tagon from BOG diluting the risks of opening the new destination all by itself.

LIM also seems to be very far from DXB as well, perhaps it could be served as a tagon from CCS or PTY.

BOG has the runway/altitude problem. I don't know how that would work out for EK.

[Edited 2012-06-26 13:40:11]


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User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7239 times:
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Quoting AF086 (Reply 15):
JJ and LA who offer asian connections though alliance partners in Europe.

LA does not link up with any alliance partners in Europe for Asian connections. For connections between SCL and Asia via Europe, the only choice from SCL is to fly on AF and connect via CDG. LA routes passengers onto CX via AKL and QF/BA/CX/JL via SYD.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17481 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6998 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
For connections between SCL and Asia via Europe, the only choice from SCL is to fly on AF and connect via CDG. LA routes passengers onto CX via AKL and QF/BA/CX/JL via SYD.

I thought that was the whole point of SFO?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6863 times:
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LAN goes to SFO via LIM so I'm not sure there would be a point to a SFO routing; they could also connect via LAX though I think a routing via AKL or even SYD might be just as efficient if not more so.

User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8815 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6794 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
I thought that was the whole point of SFO?

LIM-SFO is a code-share with only CX. LA has interline agreements with CA, UA, JL, etc. at SFO. At JFK, LA code-shares with CX and JL. At LAX, LA code-shares with CX, JL and KE. CX, JL and KE also place their respective codes on the SCL-LIM-LAX route. Interestingly, LA recently hired several Japanese speaking cabin attendants at LIM.


25 sonomaflyer : It would be interesting to see if the numbers indicate enough traffic for either a SCL or LIM to NRT routing on a LAN 787 a few times per week.
26 AF022 : I'm curious about the source for this.
27 SCL767 : There is size-able traffic between LIM and NRT. LAN routes pax traveling between LIM and NRT via LAX and JFK on code-share flights operated by JAL. L
28 luckyone : South Korea is now part of the Visa Waiver Program. Japan has been part of the VWP since 1988. The length and an ever-increasing cost structure are t
29 AF086 : Yes but Brazil isn't and this route had high percentage of brazilian pax. The US demand for visa even for transit pax was one of the things that made
30 incitatus : Sorry but this is really not accurate. A lot of Brazilians who travel internationally have US visas. Just the Sao Paulo office processes more than 10
31 Eightball : That's interesting. I was only comparing the total distances of these two routes: ICN-DXB-GRU: 11780 miles ICN-LAX-GRU: 12150 miles
32 Post contains images Coronado : For the sake of saving 1-3 hours would it be more pleasant to spend some quality time with US Immigration and US airport transit facilties compared t
33 DTWLAX : If it is not accurate do you have data to backup your statement's accuracy? How do you know millions of Brazilians have a US visa? And to your point,
34 AF086 : Much of these visas are not new ones but reissuing expired ones. Before the transit visa demand american airlines had large number of brazilian pax c
35 Post contains links incitatus : You need to ask yourself if you have data to back up your point as well. Most US visas are valid for 5 or 10 years. The surge in applications precedi
36 AF086 : Yes but back in the day the US didn't require visas for transit pax. If you read my posts you'll see that I didn't blame solely the visa. I said that
37 Post contains links dynkrisolo : Check this 2004 news article explaining why IB closed their MIA hub. http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-07-05-iberia-mia_x.htm Nitpicking: RG d
38 incitatus : Yes the KE schedule in the other direction is not good. I do not find GRU departures after 11 pm particularly attractive. For GRU-DXB a meal gets ser
39 sydaircargo : why not ? Air China flys BJS via MAD to GRU
40 dynkrisolo : But it's recommended that one should adjust to the local time of one's destination while on board. Then 3 am in Brazil would be early morning in UAE
41 Viscount724 : For most of the years Varig served Japan they were much less than daily. As late as 1996 they were only 3 per week. When did it become daily?
42 HOONS90 : Thanks for the informative replies guys! Right before RG dropped their NGO route circa 2003, it was 4x weekly GRU-LAX-NRT and 3x weekly GRU-LAX-NGO, a
43 Post contains links FlyboyOz : Varig did fly from Brazil to Hong Kong via Johnnesburg. Why Varig Stopped To Fly To Hk?!?! (by Rbirtel Dec 10 2001 in Civil Aviation)
44 Fly2yyz : Hmmm, I would like to chime in and ask maybe KE is happy with their loads from Asia-ICN-LAX, and is mainly aiming for LAX-GRU-Brazil traffic instead?
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