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Fleet Renewal SAA And LX  
User currently offlineSA744 From South Africa, joined Nov 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8962 times:

Hi Everyone
I know this was discussed recently but was just wondering if there have been any decisions made yet, I know that the station manager for LX in JNB said that they might be sending 777 to JNB, dont think that says what the decision is final, maybe just a heads up for a possibility?
Thanks

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8920 times:

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):

Hi Everyone
I know this was discussed recently but was just wondering if there have been any decisions made yet, I know that the station manager for LX in JNB said that they might be sending 777 to JNB, dont think that says what the decision is final, maybe just a heads up for a possibility?
Thanks

Sorry, but for LX this is wrong information. They won't fly any 777 for sure because with its all Airbus fleet it would not make sense. There is a rumor that they would like to have some bigger aircraft than the 343 (up to 5?). But this would most probably be a few 346. This would be an ad interim solution until new aircrafts are ordered and delivered, for example the 350-900 and -1000. Till then the LX long-haul fleet will consist of 15 A 343 and 15 A 333 (and 346???).


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8451 times:
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Quoting ZRH (Reply 1):
Sorry, but for LX this is wrong information. They won't fly any 777 for sure because with its all Airbus fleet it would not make sense. There is a rumor that they would like to have some bigger aircraft than the 343 (up to 5?). But this would most probably be a few 346. This would be an ad interim solution until new aircrafts are ordered and delivered, for example the 350-900 and -1000. Till then the LX long-haul fleet will consist of 15 A 343 and 15 A 333 (and 346???).

Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ? AN A340-600 is hardly "advanced". What is almost a certainty is that whatever replaces LX A340 will be twin engined. a 787-9 or 777-8 would both be great additions to the LX fleet and the greater LH fleet.


User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8438 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ?

I guess one reason is that they do not, nor does their parent LH, have the pax 777 in their fleet. Would they order it? Probably not since the A 350 ect will be avaiable for fleet renewal in a couple of years.



John@SFO
User currently offline330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8328 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ? AN A340-600 is hardly "advanced". What is almost a certainty is that whatever replaces LX A340 will be twin engined. a 787-9 or 777-8 would both be great additions to the LX fleet and the greater LH fleet.

And there we go again...


Discussed over and over again, but I don't find the topic right now, must have looked over it. Someone please post the link so we don't have to go through all this again.



Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
User currently offlineqm001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8110 times:

perhaps an OS 777???


I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8069 times:
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Quoting legacyins (Reply 3):
I guess one reason is that they do not, nor does their parent LH, have the pax 777 in their fleet. Would they order it? Probably not since the A 350 ect will be avaiable for fleet renewal in a couple of years.

LH had NOT ordered A350's and the fact they have a massive A340 fleet doesn't peclude Boeing from getting a 787 order.


User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8015 times:

Quoting qm001 (Reply 5):
perhaps an OS 777???

Exactly my thoughts. Maybe restructuring at OS will make them focus on some 767 routes and cut everything else, and AUA moves their 777s to LX. They should be able to carry a little more weight than the 343s.



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7990 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ? AN A340-600 is hardly "advanced". What is almost a certainty is that whatever replaces LX A340 will be twin engined. a 787-9 or 777-8 would both be great additions to the LX fleet and the greater LH fleet.

I would think that the A340-600 is just as advanced as the 777-300ER, it just uses a bit more fuel.

Besides LX would have to set up from scratch a new operation if they choose the 777. Maintenance and crew training, more spares. And if LH can make the A340-600 wok, so can LX.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7907 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
LH had NOT ordered A350's

Hence why I put the "ect"

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
and the fact they have a massive A340 fleet

They currently have 24 A346 ranging in age from 3 yrs to 8 yrs. Not really massive, IMO. This is more of an argument that they will pass these onto LX as LX wants a larger aircraft not a smaller aircraft as the 787.



John@SFO
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7733 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ?

Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly. Why should they have only a few pilots for probably 5 777. This is total uneconomically. Furthermore when not even the parent company LH has 777 (passenger).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
LH had NOT ordered A350's and the fact they have a massive A340 fleet doesn't peclude Boeing from getting a 787 order.

Yes, but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too. So they would have to wait for the -10 if this ever comes. LX replaced the 332 with the 333 because the 332 was too small. With their three class layout they need bigger aircrafts.

[Edited 2012-06-26 09:04:55]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7641 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly.

No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too.

UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.

When LH took over LX, they changed all their ERJs to Avros and Saabs. LH Tech can eaisly train the LX maintenance folks trained on just about every airliner airplane flying today. So, ordering the B-777 and/or B-787 is not really a significant problem.


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7566 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.

A 787-8 with LX would have around 170 to 180 seats maximum simliar to what ANA offers on their HND-FRA route. The 787 is just too small for LH and LX. First and Business class take up a lot of space.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
When LH took over LX, they changed all their ERJs to Avros and Saabs.

Not quite correct. When LH took over LX the Avros and Saabs had already been in the fleet for years, first with Crossair then with Swiss. The maintenance of these aircraft in BSL had been established for many years. AFAIK SR Technics at ZRH does not conduct heavy maintenance on 777s. They are specialized on A340 and A330.

At this point I think it would be more than very surprising to see LX operate 777 in the near future.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7519 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.

This is far from an apples-to-apples comparison. UA will have C, Y+ and Y (at 9 abreast), while LX has F, C and Y. A 788 configured with F, C and Y (at 8 abreast) would only seat about 150 people. This is a configuration comparable to LX's configuration in their 343/333s. [For comparison, ANA's 788s seat 158 without F.]



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7473 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly.

No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

But the differences training to an Airbus WB is relatively minimal. Training a small group of pilots to fly an entirely different, unrelated fleet type is another matter. I'm not saying they would pool the two pilot groups between NB and WB, but it is still going to be much easier and cheaper to have an all-Airbus fleet than introducing a unique fleet type for niche routes. As has been discussed previously, a larger LX plane in the short-term will likely be the A346, and not a 777 for obvious reasons.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7416 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

That's nitpicking. It is almost the same. The pilots only need a few hours to accustom. As I know there are three groups only narrow-body, 330/340 and some 330 and n/b. But to have only 5 777 is absolute nonsense.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7406 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.
LX's First and Business need much more room than UA's premier classes. You can't compare. LX has real beds in First and lie flat seats in Business. LX would only have max 180 people in a 788. This is fare too less to fly economically.

[Edited 2012-06-26 10:27:56]

User currently onlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7315 times:

G´day

Though this has been mentioned numerous times on this forum before, the A 340-600 has a far superior take off performance than the B 777-300ER out of hot and high airports such as JNB, so why should LX or SA even consider the type. Commonality with the existing fleet simply precludes this, if the larger type truly is required there are sufficient good airframes available.

Sorry B - fanboys  

Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7311 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Yes, but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too. So they would have to wait for the -10 if this ever comes. LX replaced the 332 with the 333 because the 332 was too small. With their three class layout they need bigger aircrafts.

  

I think the only way will be for LX and LH to implement the A346. Lower training costs of Pilots and Cabin Staff and in the end more available seats in any configuration they will have. The first destination will be for sure GIG / GRU / EZE as mentioned in a previous thread!!


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7195 times:
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Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 17):
G´day

Though this has been mentioned numerous times on this forum before, the A 340-600 has a far superior take off performance than the B 777-300ER out of hot and high airports such as JNB, so why should LX or SA even consider the type. Commonality with the existing fleet simply precludes this, if the larger type truly is required there are sufficient good airframes available.

Sorry B - fanboys  

Cheers

Peter

You name it!  

Also, don't forget the cost efficiency of having another Airbus type instead of a brand new type that required training and another maintenance schedule -> is money!!!


User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7109 times:

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 18):
The first destination will be for sure GIG / GRU / EZE as mentioned in a previous thread!!

Currently LX don't even serve GIG and EZE and don't have plans to inaugurate non stop services to these cities. Were LX to get the A346 they would most likely be placed on routes to GRU, HKG, JNB and NRT.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6850 times:
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Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
They currently have 24 A346 ranging in age from 3 yrs to 8 yrs. Not really massive,

Considering how small the world fleet of A346 aircraft is 24 is a LOT, probably 30% of all A346 planes. IB, SAA and Virgin Atlantic are the only other BIG users of the type.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 8):
I would think that the A340-600 is just as advanced as the 777-300ER, it just uses a bit more fuel.

The A346 is as advanced as the 77W but the A346 is dead, out of production . Boeing is still making 777 and developing the 777-9X as the next generation 777.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6772 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
Considering how small the world fleet of A346 aircraft is 24 is a LOT, probably 30% of all A346 planes.

Close: 24 / 97 = 25%.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4432 times:
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Quoting UALWN (Reply 22):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):Considering how small the world fleet of A346 aircraft is 24 is a LOT, probably 30% of all A346 planes.
Close: 24 / 97 = 25%.

97 is small, even for a sub-type. The 748 has about the same number of orders and the press in NOT calling it a "success". The only saving grace for the program is the A330.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4323 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
97 is small, even for a sub-type.

It is, but it's more than these subtypes managed to sell: 753 (55), 764 (37), 777-200 (88), 777-300 (60), 777-200LR(57).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
The 748 has about the same number of orders and the press in NOT calling it a "success".

Actually, the sub-type 747-8i has sold 37 units, and the cargo model 747-8F has sold 70, both less than the A340-600.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
The only saving grace for the program is the A330.

That "saving grace" has sold 1199 units until now. Not too shabby. Added to the 377 units the ugly-duckling A340 has sold, it means the program has sold 1576 planes. Again, not too bad. By comparison, the 757, 767, 777 and 747 have sold so far 1049, 1090, 1367, and 1524 units, respectively. Speaking of the 777, since the 777-200, 777-300, and 777-200LR have all sold less units than the A346, I guess one can say that the only saving graces of the program have been the ER models (777-200ER and 777-300ER), which, combined, have sold 1035 units...

[Edited 2012-06-27 06:14:12]


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
25 na : Still more than the 777-300 or 777-200LR subtypes Boeing sold. But I agree, The A346 has not been a success, Airbus surely must have hoped for 200+ w
26 B738FlyUIA : Sorry, then missed seeing the destinations online!!!! But there was a thread that GRU would like to add some more capacity on the route!!!
27 LONGisland89 : Methinks one of the JFK flights would be a contender as well. Anyway, when are we going to see an announcement about the new type?
28 Viscount724 : I clearly recall an article in the LX inflight magazine a few years ago on their pilot training procedures etc. It stated that some LX pilots did fly
29 KC135TopBoom : If it was "as advanced" as the B-77W, it would still be in demand by the airlines, thus still in production. There is a two year difference between t
30 Viscount724 : Not correct. The Avro RJs were acquired by LX predecessor Crossair years before LH had any involvement in LX. And the Saabs, along with the Embraer 1
31 DALCE : why again start again about the 77W being better than the 346, and which maunfacturer sold more aircraft....This is not the topic.
32 UALWN : Launched at the same time, having enormous commonality, and built on the same final assembly line... Thank you, Somebody said that 97 for a sub-type
33 jfk777 : "Advanced and Efficient" are two different things. The Concorde was the most advanced plane of its day but wa a GAS HOG. Airbus made the decision to
34 KC135TopBoom : The A-340-600HGW has a MTOW of 840,000 lbs and a max thrust of 240,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-560 engines of 60,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a
35 Post contains images columba : Doubtful as LH just stated they need larger aircraft as well because they are limited on German airports (e.g. no third runway in MUC) LH has stated
36 chieft : That's correct. The difference will be shown if you lose one engine during take-off. If I repeat it correctly, has that happened during the presentat
37 jfk777 : Iberia selected the A340 because of Madrid 2000 feet elevation. Since the A340 allows IB nonstops all the way to Santiago and Lima 4 engines does mak
38 Post contains links zeke : Could that be a 77F with Aerologic to replace the LH MD-11 on a LX code share ? Some logic in this if they can leverage off the LH fleet. Is it possi
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