Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Official: Airbus Announce A320 Factory In Alabama  
User currently offlinegothamspotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 30367 times:

Reports today that Airbus may announce on Monday plans to build an A320 assembly plant in Mobile, Alabama.

The biggest reason cited has been to convince US carriers to buy Airbus planes. But do you think Delta and United really care where their planes are made? Maybe Airbus just wants to reduce their labor costs, which are undoubtedly lower in right-to-work Alabama than they are in France.

http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/06/airbus-build-a320-factory-alabama

185 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16859 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 30388 times:

This is the link to the NY Times article referenced:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/28/bu...t-us-plant.html?_r=2&smid=tw-share



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 30109 times:

UA is about to buy the MAX, DL has signed up for 100 737-900s, AA has already bought a ton of NEOs OEOs, NGs and MAXs so that leaves US which is already in the Airbus bag anyways. I don't think they are doing this for more American (US airline) orders. Alabama has VERY friendly labor laws to corporations so I am betting its Airbus hedging themselves against an expensive Euro and taking advantage of low labor prices.

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4722 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 30002 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
Alabama has VERY friendly labor laws to corporations so I am betting its Airbus hedging themselves against an expensive Euro and taking advantage of low labor prices.

Those are strong arguments in favor of Airbus doing so. A move which was not unexpected I guess.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29983 times:

The majority of those in Alabama, along with a lot of Southern states, sure seem to be railing a lot against the European policies, cultures and attitudes. But when it comes to business, oh well, the more the better, eh?

Money sure talks......



 


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29972 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 3):
Those are strong arguments in favor of Airbus doing so. A move which was not unexpected I guess.

Airbus is a very well run company , and well run companies often hedge themselves against over/under valued currencies so I am guessing it is a matter of when not if.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29914 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
UA is about to buy the MAX,

Really? Care to supply a source?


User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29716 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 6):

Its been talked about and there was even a thread regarding it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...s-ual-boeing-idUSBRE84304D20120504  


User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29709 times:

This is great. I had the feeling that they would do this. Will there be any Lockheed involvement?

I guess they will push up the NEO production rates which is just what is needed.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29659 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
The majority of those in Alabama, along with a lot of Southern states, sure seem to be railing a lot against the European policies, cultures and attitudes.

I seriously doubt that Southern States will be railing against massive job creation  


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29612 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 6):

Yeah!! I'd like to know about that m'self Especially since I Work for United and I haven't heard any such thing. It Could Happen since We're down over 106 airplanes from where we should be.


User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29567 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 9):
I seriously doubt that Southern States will be railing against massive job creation

They already have quite a few European car factories.


User currently offlineATLgaUSA From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29573 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 9):
Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
The majority of those in Alabama, along with a lot of Southern states, sure seem to be railing a lot against the European policies, cultures and attitudes.

The majority of those in Southern states are railing against governments spending more money than they take in. I'm sure Airbus, as a business, understands the concept of fiscal responsibility. Therefore, there shouldn't be much of a conflict.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29350 times:

Quoting gothamspotter (Thread starter):
But do you think Delta and United really care where their planes are made?

No. This is all about reducing costs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 29307 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):

The majority of those in Alabama, along with a lot of Southern states, sure seem to be railing a lot against the European policies, cultures and attitudes. But when it comes to business, oh well, the more the better, eh?

I'll certainly enjoy the irony. Been waiting quite a while for this to finally come out. Everybody wins, IMO.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9029 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29203 times:

I wonder what sort of A320 factory it will be ....

A320 only, or to include the A319 & A321, NEO or no NEO.

The plant in China seems to be working well.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29175 times:

Quoting gothamspotter (Thread starter):
The biggest reason cited has been to convince US carriers to buy Airbus planes.

Let's see, the USA already has the carrier with the largest Airbus fleet - US Airways - and when you count UA, DL, B6, NK fleets you get additional numbers which are quite impressive in Boeings backyard, and all this was done with a/c being built / asembled in Europe and flown across the pond, so I question that reason.

Now if folks want to revisit the idea of currency hedging between the US Dollar and the Euro I would give that more credibility. In any event, unless it is a obsolete A320 classic line being packaged and shipped across the pond to create space for the NEO lines, I would expect the Europe unions to raise merry hell since there is no military offset which was going to compensate for the tanker deal.


User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29169 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 10):
Yeah!! I'd like to know about that m'self Especially since I Work for United and I haven't heard any such thing. It Could Happen since We're down over 106 airplanes from where we should be.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...s-ual-boeing-idUSBRE84304D20120504

http://airnation.net/2012/04/24/united-737-order-boeing/

http://www.sharewellnewswire.com/ord...eing-finalized-by-united-airlines/

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerq...t-united-airlines-to-make-10b.html


The likelihood of this order not happening is just as likely as WN ordering a fleet of 777's,   


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29080 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 9):
I seriously doubt that Southern States will be railing against massive job creation

hmmmmmmm?

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 12):
The majority of those in Southern states are railing against governments spending more money than they take in. I'm sure Airbus, as a business, understands the concept of fiscal responsibility. Therefore, there shouldn't be much of a conflict.

AIrbus has never, ever taken any monies from any governments?

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):
I'll certainly enjoy the irony. Been waiting quite a while for this to finally come out. Everybody wins, IMO.

  

All the best.......

 


User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29013 times:

Reports from Mobile were saying that this would be occupying the land that Airbus wanted to use for their Tanker deal that Boeing ended up getting. Airbus already has an MRO in BFM (I beleive) that is pretty proficient in Airbus technology.

Good to finally see something good come to this state... For those of you interested, here is a list of International Companies here in Alabama include:

Mercedes Benz
Hyandai
Toyota
Boeing
ThyssenKrupp Steel
LG
JVC
Sony
Michelin


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 28849 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
The majority of those in Alabama, along with a lot of Southern states, sure seem to be railing a lot against the European policies, cultures and attitudes. But when it comes to business, oh well, the more the better, eh?

Let's see BMW in Spartansburg is the largest volume auto plant in the US and produces for domestic and export markets. Mercedes is in Alabama so is Hyundai. Nissan is in Tennessee and so is VW in Chattanooga specifically. Freightliner is in North Carolina and owned by Daimler. Michelin is in South Carolina. Honda is in Alabama, Ohio, Indiana, . Toyota is in Mississippi, West Virginia, Kentucky, Texas, and Indiana. Volvo Trucks has 1.6 million square feet in Virginia.

Maybe this is about business and not about stereotypes.

Or if we must stick to a stereotype let's reverse your statement: The majority of those in France, along with the rest of Europe, sure seem to be railing a lot against the policis of the southern states, cultures, and attitudes. But it when it comes to business, oh well, the more the better, eh?

[Edited 2012-06-27 15:58:36]

[Edited 2012-06-27 16:07:22]

[Edited 2012-06-27 16:07:53]

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 28789 times:

Would you regard a Boeing factory in China as a good thing as well.

User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29088 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 23):
Would you regard a Boeing factory in China as a good thing as well.

If the technology and methods stayed with Boeing and weren't appropriated and if the profits flowed to back to the company, yes.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29072 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 23):
Would you regard a Boeing factory in China as a good thing as well.

Embraer has a factory in China. Apparently they have decided it's a good thing.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 29336 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think people greatly overstate Alabama's low wages. First of all, using the current exchange rates, French full time equivalent wage in 2010 was about $43,000. In Alabama, using the same definition, it was $42,000. Now of course this is for the whole economy and not the manufacturing sector, but it puts to rest the myth that Alabama is low wage. Perhaps there is still an adv in AL vs FR because of the more flexible labor laws and flexibility. It's not just about compensation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ountries_by_average_wage#section_2


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30216 times:

Airbus is getting smart. Gotta spread the risk a bit. When the french strike, Alabama can keep on humming along...
Americans have a great work ethic.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30169 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 27):
French full time equivalent wage in 2010 was about $43,000. In Alabama, using the same definition, it was $42,000.

Its not just about wages. It is about Holidays, benefits, taxes, worker productivity , overtime rules etc ...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30416 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not a surprising move by Airbus and certainly a prudent one - especially if the Eurozone weakens or even collapses (as a currency - NOT as an economy).

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I wonder what sort of A320 factory it will be ....

A320 only, or to include the A319 & A321, NEO or no NEO.

I could see them starting with the A320-200 (as it is the most popular variant) and then adding others if conditions warrant.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 30295 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 27):

You gotta look up Unit Labor Costs. Compensation can be the same or even higher in one country, but it can have an overall lower ULC.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 30302 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
You gotta look up Unit Labor Costs. Compensation can be the same or even higher in one country, but it can have an overall lower ULC.

  
Much of Europe practically take an entire month off in the middle of the summer, that alone probably costs Airbus millions.


User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 674 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 30143 times:

How much is the subsidy package worth? This probably has a lot to do with where the factory is located.

I'm surprised that Texas and Georgia, 2 states with aviation manufacturing histories (not to mention fewer hurricanes in Fort Worth and Marietta) can't seem to compete for the new plants, but perhaps these states are unwilling to subsidize A/B to the same extent as Alabama and South Carolina.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 30159 times:

Money isn't just talking, it's screaming in our ear.

Good news for the alabama economy though~


I think this may be for AA and US being burgeoning A customers



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29689 times:

Business will go where they can utilize a good labor pool and cost advantages. Most southern US states are "Right to Work" states with less unionized labor that offers a better economic environment to do business in. BMW moved production to the southern US to take advantage of this.

If you run a company and had to chose a place to manufacture in where would you chose? EU (some countires with 35 hour work weeks and retirement at 60 or 55), rust belt USA, similar to EU, but retirement kicks in a few years later, or the southern US (Right to Work, lower cost of living, etc.).

People bash the southern US "rednecks" as non-cosmopolitan, but they do a great job and many companies do business there. I applaud Airbus for opening a line in the US. While it may not generate significant orders for 320s, it will be beneficial to Airbus shareholders as the company is doing what any well run business would do, go where you can afford to do business! Washington state and policies drove Boeing to SC, and EU policies are drving Airbus to the southern US. If policies towards business in Alabama change, Airbus will just move elsewhere (Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, India, etc.), Boeing and others will do the same.

Welcome to the global world!


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29529 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

How would the pieces come together? From my understanding the pieces for the planes are made all across Europe. Would they ship the pieces from Europe and assemble them in Alabama or would they build up an American supply chain? This is a pretty interesting move and if it does come to happen good luck to Airbus!
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29541 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 38):
How would the pieces come together? From my understanding the pieces for the planes are made all across Europe. Would they ship the pieces from Europe and assemble them in Alabama or would they build up an American supply chain?

A fair bit of the content comes from America, but I would imagine that the current European subs would be used for major structural sections and they would be shipped over as I am not sure the A300-600ST has the legs. Then again, maybe Airbus will finally build the A340-600ST.  
Airbus A340-600ST Super Transporter Concept


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29393 times:

Having production in every region reduces risk. Currency risks and similar.
Airbus is also debating whether to stop using the Dollar for sales/purchasing and use more local currencies. (Quite a few major EU companies have already started this, using both Euro and/or Yuan as their main trading currencies - H&M is the most recent example)
US dollar for North America and North American aircrafts produced locally makes a huge difference in risk reduction when lead times are a decade.

I guess with the world changing its a good thing. Being able to have a few production units also makes the company less vulnerable to industrial action.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2107 posts, RR: 22
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29375 times:

This is great news, should have been a tanker plant to begin with, but that is history now. The China plant is doing well, even though the Chinese are developing their own, but they would have done this anyway. Even though they open this plant it may not produce all the narrow bodies for that market. China still gets supplied narrow bodies from Europe, so I do not see this changing for USA.



Exciting times for USA and Airbus.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I wonder what sort of A320 factory it will be ....

A320 only, or to include the A319 & A321, NEO or no NEO.

I could see them starting with the A320-200 (as it is the most popular variant) and then adding others if conditions warrant.

My money would be on 320/321, then over to NEO.


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 29295 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 39):
A fair bit of the content comes from America, but I would imagine that the current European subs would be used for major structural sections and they would be shipped over as I am not sure the A300-600ST has the legs.

The A300-600ST can make a stop or two on the way across the pond. That's not the issue. I don't think Airbus has enough of them to meet demand. I'm sure they could build several more if they need to. Does Airbus still have the Guppies?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 39):
maybe Airbus will finally build the A340-600ST.

I think that might be a bit of overkill. I can see an A330ST though.  


User currently offlinerduddji From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1472 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 28996 times:

More good news for AL's manufacturing industry. I have to give Airbus credit, this is a smart move. Cheaper production costs in the World's top narrow body market...

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 21):
Let's see BMW in Spartansburg is the largest volume auto plant in the US and produces for domestic and export markets.

Not true. BMW's tact times (and those of most German manufacturers) are 50-100% longer than those of US manfs. Asian plants are even faster than US plants. BMW produces about 1,000 cars a day between the *two* plants in GSP. GM produces far more than that at many of their plants, some of which run 24/6. BMW only has two shifts (currently). BMW's output will increase over the next few years when they get the X4 and a 5 series line, but they are still quite slow compared to non-German manufacturers.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineflybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 28473 times:

Airbus opening up a factory in Alabama is a good thing. I think growth in the technology sector will allow that region to attract highly educated people and to be introduced to new ideas, new nationalities and international culture. Maybe through this kind of change, southern states may employ greater moderation on social and political issues.


"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlinethomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3940 posts, RR: 22
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 28082 times:

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 44):
Airbus opening up a factory in Alabama is a good thing. I think growth in the technology sector will allow that region to attract highly educated people and to be introduced to new ideas, new nationalities and international culture. Maybe through this kind of change, southern states may employ greater moderation on social and political issues.

WOW.. just...WOW!



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 27949 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
Not a surprising move by Airbus and certainly a prudent one - especially if the Eurozone weakens or even collapses (as a currency - NOT as an economy).

What's the difference.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
You gotta look up Unit Labor Costs. Compensation can be the same or even higher in one country, but it can have an overall lower ULC.

Labor compensation per hour WORKED for latest year available, in manufacturing sector, using current exchange rates, puts both countries at roughly the same level. AL, being a lower wage state, is therefore no doubt lower than that of FR, however it's not this huge difference that everybody expects. AL afterall is still part of the US.

http://stats.oecd.org/


User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 27826 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 44):
Airbus opening up a factory in Alabama is a good thing. I think growth in the technology sector will allow that region to attract highly educated people and to be introduced to new ideas, new nationalities and international culture. Maybe through this kind of change, southern states may employ greater moderation on social and political issues.

More blue collar workers will do no such thing. AL has excellent, large universities, which already attract a large amount of talented people and "culture," more than any manufacturing plant could ever do. Get your facts s8.

[Edited 2012-06-27 20:15:12]

User currently offlineDeltaB717 From Australia, joined Jun 2012, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 27583 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
numbers which are quite impressive in Boeings backyard, and all this was done with a/c being built / asembled in Europe and flown across the pond, so I question that reason.

I also doubt this decision is an attempt to attract more orders, but you have to admit having the same, or a subset of the same, product built with cheaper labour AND not having to be ferried across the Atlantic does make that product a little more attractive.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 27384 times:

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 45):
WOW.. just...WOW!

I think it says more about his intolerance and lack of depth than it says about the great people of Alabama...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinejuantrippe82 From Bahamas, joined Sep 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 27021 times:

Quoting gothamspotter (Thread starter):
The biggest reason cited has been to convince US carriers to buy Airbus planes. But do you think Delta and United really care where their planes are made? Maybe Airbus just wants to reduce their labor costs, which are undoubtedly lower in right-to-work Alabama than they are in France.


You mean the right to work for less, but I digress. But this is probably better for Airbus, it reduces the risk and increases production.



Don't worry, I'm never wrong.
User currently offlinejuantrippe82 From Bahamas, joined Sep 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 26718 times:

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/06/airbus_set_to_announce_a320_pr.html

Wow, providing tax breaks and subsidies. Kinda flies in the face of the free market doesn't it?



Don't worry, I'm never wrong.
User currently offlinejuantrippe82 From Bahamas, joined Sep 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 26608 times:

Sorry I meant the word "incentives"


Don't worry, I'm never wrong.
User currently offlineBCEaglesCO757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 242 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 26601 times:

My mom is from and lives in Mobile with a number of other relatives. Myself I was born and raised in Boston,but lived in Mobile for about a year and a half and visit often.

On one hand..I'm happy to see the area get some jobs ( I will say I hope some people are in the loop or know.Seemed to me jobs considered good there where hard to break into: Papermill,Chevron, etc )

On the other hand, I'm guessing the workers will be third party......not Airbus employees. Benefits so-so, and pay comparable to Boeing but perhaps lower.

I'm all for people having a job and working. I'm also all for a company paying people what they are worth to produce their goods. Which is IMO I feel unions come in by trying to make companies honest in doing so. But there will always be a segment of our population that thinks they are bad altogether.

Knowing the demographics of Mobile, how do they feel about working for such a 'socialistic' French company heavily sudsidized by the government ?

If there is anything about this story and knowing Mobile....I find that part funny and ironic.

All said, good luck to those in Mobile looking for work and getting a job at the new plant. Best wishes.


User currently offlinemadog From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 26437 times:

for low labour costs, i'd imagine the Tianjin factory in China would be ideal for Airbus?

User currently offlineBCEaglesCO757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 242 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 26427 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 47):
More blue collar workers will do no such thing. AL has excellent, large universities, which already attract a large amount of talented people and "culture," more than any manufacturing plant could ever do. Get your facts s8.

Are you talking about football ? If so, I will say yes. Auburn is a good university I will say. After that......I think football when I think of schools in Alabama. I have family members who have played at both Bama and AU.

USA, UA-Birmingham, Auburn, Alabama. After that ????


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 26338 times:

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 44):
Airbus opening up a factory in Alabama is a good thing. I think growth in the technology sector will allow that region to attract highly educated people and to be introduced to new ideas, new nationalities and international culture. Maybe through this kind of change, southern states may employ greater moderation on social and political issues.

What a ridiculous statement. You paint with a broad brush...

Great news for Alabama! The South seems to be one of the strongest regions in the country for manufacturing these days. I would guess that well over half of the foreign automakers' US plants are in the South. Perhaps some Northern and Western states could learn a thing or two from their economic prosperity...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25954 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
I would expect the Europe unions to raise merry hell since there is no military offset which was going to compensate for the tanker deal.

This chestnut was brought up when the chinese FAL was opened. Never really happened.
I wouldn't expect it this time either and for the same reason - this facility isn't intended to replace a European one - it's additional capacity, and as such is still likely to add jobs in Europe overall

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
When the french strike, Alabama can keep on humming along...Americans have a great work ethic.

You might want to check which of the two OEM's has the better labour rerlations record in the last 5 years or so, by the way....   

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 53):
I'm guessing the workers will be third party......not Airbus employees. Benefits so-so, and pay comparable to Boeing but perhaps lower.

Why?

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 53):
how do they feel about working for such a 'socialistic' French company heavily sudsidized by the government ?

Same as they feel about working for a socialist American company heavily subsidized by its government, I guess   

Rgds


User currently offlineBCEaglesCO757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 242 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25804 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 57):
Same as they feel about working for a socialist American company heavily subsidized by its government, I guess

Rgds

That comment wasn't meant as a shot at the Fench or Airbus. But in how some here view Europe, their companies, especially the French and how they operate/work.

I have nothing against the French,but they are generally bad-mouthed here regarding anything and everything. Not by all,but some.

Or the fear that we are 'turning' into Europe everyday. Anyhow I see ironies in BMW, Airbus in Alabama.

[Edited 2012-06-27 21:42:23]

User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25590 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 48):
I also doubt this decision is an attempt to attract more orders, but you have to admit having the same, or a subset of the same, product built with cheaper labour AND not having to be ferried across the Atlantic does make that product a little more attractive.

So why not build in Mexico, if the sole reason is costs?


User currently offlinejuantrippe82 From Bahamas, joined Sep 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25553 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
Great news for Alabama! The South seems to be one of the strongest regions in the country for manufacturing these days. I would guess that well over half of the foreign automakers' US plants are in the South. Perhaps some Northern and Western states could learn a thing or two from their economic prosperity...

Economic prosperity for whom? Not the employees.



Don't worry, I'm never wrong.
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25395 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 58):
I have nothing against the French,but they are generally bad-mouthed here regarding anything and everything. Not by all,but some.

I can buy that.
I wonder how many other French companies have established presences in the USA........

It wouldn't surprise me if it was more than US citizens might think...

Rgds


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 57, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25369 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 6):
Really? Care to supply a source?

Its happening.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 10):
It Could Happen since We're down over 106 airplanes from where we should be.

No you;re not.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
But when it comes to business, oh well, the more the better, eh?

That's what Republicans do. Anything for money, nothing for anyone else.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 23):
Would you regard a Boeing factory in China as a good thing as well.

Yes.

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 53):
I'm guessing the workers will be third party......not Airbus employees.

I guarantee you're wrong.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
What a ridiculous statement. You paint with a broad brush...

About what? He's right. Having such a factory may help drag the 48th worst state in everything - poverty, education, literacy, and social values - ahead a hundred years or so.

NS


User currently offlineRentonView From United States of America, joined May 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25327 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
The majority of those in Southern states are railing against governments spending more money than they take in. I'm sure Airbus, as a business, understands the concept of fiscal responsibility. Therefore, there shouldn't be much of a conflict.

Hah, that's funny, considering this...



User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 59, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25120 times:

Quoting RentonView (Reply 63):
Hah, that's funny, considering this...

OK I can see AZ's position there easily, but Cali, NY, AND Ill in the "green?" Yeah this thing is messed up. Last I heard all 3 of those states were eye-deep in debt.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinesouthsky From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24849 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 62):
About what? He's right. Having such a factory may help drag the 48th worst state in everything - poverty, education, literacy, and social values - ahead a hundred years or so.

...and California is our shining beacon. Thank you so much for existing.

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/estimates/StateEstimates.aspx


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24559 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 64):
OK I can see AZ's position there easily, but Cali, NY, AND Ill in the "green?" Yeah this thing is messed up. Last I heard all 3 of those states were eye-deep in debt.

This chart is showing federal spending. The state deficit has no relevance whatsoever.

Since California is green, it means that Californians pay more in federal taxes than the federal government spends on California.

Southern "fiscally responsible" states tend to be in the red because the federal government has to compensate for their underspending.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineThijs1984 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 23427 times:

Good thing for the people in Alabama.
I have a lot of business related connections there, i think they are gad to see airbus comming.


User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 63, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 22944 times:

Interesting indeed to see Airbus moving part of its manufacturing to US. I hope mainstream Alabamians are more tolerant than ones I saw in Top Gear episode where they drove through the state.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 11
Reply 64, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 22864 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 19):
here is a list of International Companies here in Alabama

What makes Alabama such a popular state for foreign companies to manufacture there?
Labor laws?

Whatever it is, it seems to be working, and kudos to them! Nothing like a state and a group of people willing to pull their sleeves up and get to work.

I wish we thought alike here in France, but I'm pretty sure that, on the contrary, the new populist government is what precipitated Airbus to start manufacturing somewhere else.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 22834 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Then again, maybe Airbus will finally build the A340-600ST.

How they have closed the line. The will ship the parts to Alabama. That was from beginning the plan in the Tanker competition.

Quoting bohica (Reply 37):
I don't think Airbus has enough of them to meet demand

Exactly, the fleet is already extremly busy and at it's limit's AFAIK. The Belugas are quickly accumulating a lot of cycles.

Quoting bohica (Reply 37):
I'm sure they could build several more if they need to

Don't thinks so. The A300 line was closed in 2007. Airbus would have to buy some second hand craft with low cycles. Besides the Beluga Door were a limited production.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1559 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22467 times:

Things have changed a fair bit in Europe since Airbus decided to manufacture in China!

First off the politicians in Spain, Italy and France are going to wonder if they can get such a plant in their European State.

Then I would expect some Union trouble as well.

The European State/industrial/military complex is very tight..

They may really need another production line, in order to guarentee future sales generally, but I can't see what the compelling reason for putting it in the USA is.

Ruscoe


User currently onliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2611 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22412 times:

This was a matter of when not if, Airbus have long been wanting to open up a FAL in the US, the original idea was for tankers, but that's history now and A320's will do just fine too. It makes sense for Airbus to establish a FAL presence in the US, to reduce currency risk but also to establish a global business footprint. Contrary to the link cited, this will not make US airlines buy more Airbus, as they do not make decisions based on politics, but it may help for future military orders.

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I wonder what sort of A320 factory it will be ....

A320 only, or to include the A319 & A321, NEO or no NEO.

The plant in China seems to be working well.

I expect it to be a copy-paste of the China FAL, laid out for low-rate production (say up to 4 per month) with possibility to expand it in the future. They would definitely build NEO's as it would make sense to open up a FAL for 2-3 years of production.

Quoting bohica (Reply 37):
The A300-600ST can make a stop or two on the way across the pond. That's not the issue. I don't think Airbus has enough of them to meet demand. I'm sure they could build several more if they need to.

The Beluga fleet is busy enough as it is already. In fact Airbus is increasingly moving to shipping. The fact that BFM is next to a seaport is not a coincidence. As an aviation fan I would love to see an A330ST, but I don't see that happening.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 52):
this facility isn't intended to replace a European one - it's additional capacity

Indeed, if Airbus ever does ramp up to 60ish per month, I believe current FALs could not cope with it. So it's either expand current FALs, or take the opportunity to build an all-new one.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22303 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Not a surprising move by Airbus and certainly a prudent one - especially if the Eurozone weakens or even collapses (as a currency - NOT as an economy).

If the value of the euro slided against the US dollar, wouldn't that be good for Airbus?

Quoting FSDan (Reply 51):
Perhaps some Northern and Western states could learn a thing or two from their economic prosperity...

Prosperity?
Example of northern state: MA. GDP per capita (2010): $58,108
Example of western state: CA. GDP per capita (2010): $51,914
Alabama. GDP per capita (2010): $36,333

There's not a single northern or western state with a GDP/person lower than that of AL. And this is before we discuss education, health, etc.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineThijs1984 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22056 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 67):
What makes Alabama such a popular state for foreign companies to manufacture there?
Labor laws?

That's correct   

That is why many car manufactorers have moved to the south.
Resulting in (for expample ) Steel Maker ThyssenKrupp to follow.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 70, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21384 times:

Will this be the first time an aircraft family has been produced in four countries on three continents?

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 71, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 21109 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 52):
This chestnut was brought up when the chinese FAL was opened. Never really happened.

Which chestnut we talking about, the one where the line in China was opened a number of years after the A320 went into service with a restriction on the number of frames that they can make or my quote which stated that unless it was the obsolete A320 line being moved from France to make way for the A320NEO production?

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
In any event, unless it is a obsolete A320 classic line being packaged and shipped across the pond to create space for the NEO lines, I would expect the Europe unions to raise merry hell since there is no military offset which was going to compensate for the tanker deal.

If my memory is correct the China line is limited to 40 frames per year, I will see if I can google how many they have already produced and are now producing annually, we know that it has taken years to get off the ground, in the meantime, the workers in Europe have continued on their merry way turning out A320's so what exactly have they lost to complain about? It is also an A320 line so as Europe moves to the NEO it will remain at the classic which is what I think would happen in the USA.

The A350 and A32XNEO are the latest a/c to be produced by Europe, there are no joint partners outside of Europe financing the production, but if European workers and their governments who are investors in Airbus are alturistic to move jobs outside of Europe for their latest and greatest products in a time of high unemployment in Spain and Italy and huge public debt across the zone then I say hats off to them.


User currently offlinehsvflier From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 20953 times:

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 50):
Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 50):

UAH comes to mind

And for the rest of the haters out there, the cost of living in Alabama is not that high so higher wages aren't really needed. In addition my hometown of Huntsville is a tech giant and has been since the space race. There is a reason the right to work states have been benefactors of foreign investors and it is largely due to lower tax rates and less expensive labor. If union lovers wanted to really protect their interests they would learn to not hold the companies paying their bills hostage every time they dont like something. The unions themselves have become the problem along with government regulations, so why put a factory somewhere that would cost a significant more to operate when you can get the same product at a lower cost?



Flown DL, UA, CO, WN, LH, TZ, WO, AA, US, LO, HA, PX, NW, KE, AB, QR, LX, EE, 5Y
User currently offlinehsvflier From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 20868 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 54):

Government contracts, also im pretty sure EADS builds the new light utility helicopter for the US Army and Alabama is home to Army aviation. Not to mention Home to Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville which also does a lot of R&D for the Aerospace industry. This also gives EADS two very powerful Senators in their pocket for future business.



Flown DL, UA, CO, WN, LH, TZ, WO, AA, US, LO, HA, PX, NW, KE, AB, QR, LX, EE, 5Y
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 20883 times:

I'm sure large parts will be shipped by boat, not Beluga. The Beluga is needed to ship parts to Toulouse which has no water connection, but Mobile is at the sea.

I think it is a very good decision. The political side of "Buy American" is welcome, but not the main motivation. While the Euro currently is in a very favourable exchange rate for them, near to its longer term average, every European company has to be prepared for the day that the "Euro crisis" is over and seen as a pure invention of a handful of people who happen to own the US news media, the US rating agencies and the leading US investment groups to transfer European and American tax money into their ultra deep pockets.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 20859 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 73):
huge public debt across the zone

Let me repeat this once again:

Spain's debt as of 01/01/2012: 68% of its GDP.
USA's debt as of 01/01/2012: 103% of its GDP.

Source: IMF.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 76, posted (2 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 20266 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting par13del (Reply 73):
I will see if I can google how many they have already produced and are now producing annually, we know that it has taken years to get off the ground

The 100th shipset of parts arrived at Tanjin this month. 89 completed A320s have been delivered so far. All production thus far has been for Chinese airlines, but they will start to deliver to non-Chinese airlines this year. Production rate is currently three per month, rising to four (the initial target) by year end.

In what way has it "taken years to get off the ground"?   

Quoting par13del (Reply 73):
It is also an A320 line so as Europe moves to the NEO it will remain at the classic

It was also reported this week that Airbus are in discussions with the Chinese to assemble A320neos in Tanjin. There's no difference between assembling A320 classics and neos - they will all come off the same production line.

Why on earth would Airbus build a new A320 production line in the US and NOT build neos there?


Pedantic footnote - Airbus uses "neo" and not "NEO" when referring to the updated A320.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8307 posts, RR: 10
Reply 77, posted (2 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 20060 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 77):
Spain's debt as of 01/01/2012: 68% of its GDP.
USA's debt as of 01/01/2012: 103% of its GDP.

Why believe in hard facts when listening to the misinformed media is so much more fun?  
Unfortunately Spain's debt to GDP ratio will go thru the roof once it accepts a "bailout".
Portugal was in the exact same boat before "it needed rescue". Portugal's debt to GDP ration was below that of Germany and France. Today it's something like 120%. Makes you wonder what is really behind this European "economic crisis", when the countries with greatest debt are the ones forcing bailouts on those with less debt.


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 78, posted (2 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 19680 times:

Terrific!...Airbus doing more for US jobs than our President..."Viva La France!"

User currently offlinepliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (2 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 19360 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):

The majority of those in Alabama, along with a lot of Southern states, sure seem to be railing a lot against the European policies, cultures and attitudes. But when it comes to business, oh well, the more the better, eh?
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):
I'll certainly enjoy the irony. Been waiting quite a while for this to finally come out. Everybody wins, IMO.
Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 19):
Good to finally see something good come to this state... For those of you interested, here is a list of International Companies here in Alabama include:

Mercedes Benz
Hyandai
Toyota
Boeing
ThyssenKrupp Steel
LG
JVC
Sony
Michelin

And of course, Honda. Somebody here made fun of me for having a "foreign" car when they say the Honda. I said you're right, Alabama is like another country.

In all seriousness it is good to see manufacturing making another jump here.


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 80, posted (2 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 19286 times:

I suspect this is due to two factors; one, they want more production capacity, and two, they want to hedge against currency fluctuations, particularly with the problems with the Euro. Pandering to US carriers by building them here is absolutely not a factor; all major US airlines except WN have Airbus planes either in their fleet or on order; this issue is long dead. Airlines buy planes based on how well they perceive that they will perform in their fleets and on price and delivery; not on where they are built.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (2 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 18959 times:

Could this have something to do with the tanker, based on the A330, that lost to the 767 tanker? If Airbus has already invested in real estate, it might be easier to build a factory build aircraft for its North American and South American customers.

I seem to recall seeing a building with the Airbus name and logo on it, at MOB. I assume that the factory will be in the vicinity.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 82, posted (2 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 18406 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 70):

Prosperity?
Example of northern state: MA. GDP per capita (2010): $58,108
Example of western state: CA. GDP per capita (2010): $51,914
Alabama. GDP per capita (2010): $36,333

That's very true, although both coasts have a MUCH higher cost of living than the South. I bet the quality of life for someone making $51,914 in California is very comparable to that of someone making $36,333 in Alabama. Just look at home prices. $400,000 gets you much more in Alabama than in California.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 57):
Having such a factory may help drag the 48th worst state in everything - poverty, education, literacy, and social values - ahead a hundred years or so.

According to data from the National Center for Education Statistics (see post #60 from southsky for the link), the percent of the population lacking basic literary skills is much lower in Alabama than many other states, including New York and California. It looks like the most recent data available is ~10 years old, but I doubt these percentages have changed drastically.

Unemployment in Alabama is also lower than New York and California (Alabama is approximately in the middle of the pack).

Also, I'd love to see where you got the data for ranking states based on social values. I didn't know that was a quantifiable metric...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 83, posted (2 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 18361 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 83):
Could this have something to do with the tanker, based on the A330, that lost to the 767 tanker? If Airbus has already invested in real estate, it might be easier to build a factory build aircraft for its North American and South American customers.

This could well have a lot to do with it, not only the real estate but having invested time and money investigating the business climate, making connections, and doing a lot of the preliminaries to building a factory. Why let them go to waste, especially if they like what they found and other considerations (i.e. currency uncertainties) dictate going ahead?



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (2 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 18298 times:

If the Airbus had worries about the Euro, they would NOT do this, because a faible Euro favours production in Europe. Such a decision makes sense if Airbus expects a phase of a strong Euro versus a weak Dollar within the next 10 years, and this I think is a reasonable assumption.

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (2 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 18284 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 82):
all major US airlines except WN have Airbus planes either in their fleet or on order; this issue is long dead.

WN and AS...



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 86, posted (2 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 18018 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 87):
Such a decision makes sense if Airbus expects a phase of a strong Euro versus a weak Dollar within the next 10 years, and this I think is a reasonable assumption.

That is only looking at the problems with the Euro; but the dollar is perhaps even more vulnerable long term. The Euro may disappear, and some degree of chaos result, but Germany is strong and will recover, and I expect France, after doing some very foolish things, to come to their senses and recover as well. The US, however, unless it gets its deficits under control, is set for some serious financial difficulty, and long term the dollar will likely plunge against the German and French currencies. Of course, it might all blow up and then it won't matter what Airbus (or Boeing, for that matter) does because nobody will be buying airliners because nobody will have the money to fly.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 88):
AS...

True, I forgot them. But I don't really consider them to be a major carrier, although many on this forum disagree.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9029 posts, RR: 75
Reply 87, posted (2 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 17847 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 67):
How they have closed the line. The will ship the parts to Alabama. That was from beginning the plan in the Tanker competition.

Airbus didn't have an A340 line, it is a shared A330/A340 line, they could build a new A340 today if someone really wanted them. I suspect if they were to build an A340 based transporter, it would be taken from the existing fleet of aircraft in service lie Boeing did for the 747LCF.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 69):
This was a matter of when not if, Airbus have long been wanting to open up a FAL in the US, the original idea was for tankers, but that's history now and A320's will do just fine too

There will be additional tanker contracts, and other additional platforms will pop up from time to time. EADS as a group also do a lot more than just build aircraft and helicopters.

People often forget the other large customers the Airbus has in the US, that is the various lease companies who I believe actually own more Airbus aircraft than the airlines do in the USA.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 69):
I expect it to be a copy-paste of the China FAL, laid out for low-rate production (say up to 4 per month) with possibility to expand it in the future. They would definitely build NEO's as it would make sense to open up a FAL for 2-3 years of production.

I have been thinking they could also build freighters, supplement the demand of XFW, or even the proposed A320 based freighter.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 69):
The fact that BFM is next to a seaport is not a coincidence. As an aviation fan I would love to see an A330ST, but I don't see that happening.

I would tend to agree. What many people forget is that EADS is the largest export customer of the US aerospace industry. A lot of those parts are already shipped from the US, if EADS expand on their sea lift capacity, the could take all the A320/A330/A350/A380 parts they export one way, and import A320 sections the other.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 70):
If the value of the euro slided against the US dollar, wouldn't that be good for Airbus?

Yes it will be. Everything is also pointing to the EURUSD going down to around 0.77, the market had highs in 2008 and 2011, the trend is suggesting a large drop in 2013/2014.

Also need to look at tax and EXIM bank influences (subject to congress approving an extension) . Aircraft made in the US by Airbus would be eligible for EXIM bank guarantees just like Boeing enjoys, that surely will make some heads spin in Chicago as they lobby for the EXIM bank support.

Quoting hsvflier (Reply 75):

Government contracts, also im pretty sure EADS builds the new light utility helicopter for the US Army and Alabama is home to Army aviation. Not to mention Home to Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville which also does a lot of R&D for the Aerospace industry. This also gives EADS two very powerful Senators in their pocket for future business

American Eurcopter builds the Lakota and a number of other civil helicopters in Columbus, Mississippi. EADS Military has facility in Alabama, their primary roles are US Coast Guard support for the C212 and CN235. EADS/Airbus also do design and manufacturing work for the A330, A350, and A380 in Mobile.

It is ironic that Boeing has for years been exporting more and more work packages overseas reducing the amount of US content in their aircraft, and EADS has been increasing its presence, and increasing its US content.

Some news on what else they might be doing was in a interview with the EADS North America boss http://in.reuters.com/video/2012/03/...ll-spend-its-pil?videoId=232383459



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22911 posts, RR: 20
Reply 88, posted (2 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 17649 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 88):
It is ironic that Boeing has for years been exporting more and more work packages overseas reducing the amount of US content in their aircraft, and EADS has been increasing its presence, and increasing its US content.

I don't know that it's ironic so much as it's emblematic of what is happening in other industries. I don't have terribly current numbers handy, but in the somewhat dated numbers I do have, Toyota was building nearly as many vehicles in the United States as Chrysler, and Nissan and Honda aren't far behind Toyota (further, both Toyota and Nissan have recently added or are currently adding a lot of manufacturing capacity in the States). It's just globalization.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 89, posted (2 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 17318 times:

Well done to Alabama if this is true. I'm sure, considering the amount of unemployment that exists in many places, this will be a God send to them.

It would be nice of Airbus if they let them build some of the bigger planes and not just the A320.


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (2 years 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 16294 times:

Quoting rduddji (Reply 38):
Not true. BMW's tact times (and those of most German manufacturers) are 50-100% longer than those of US manfs. Asian plants are even faster than US plants. BMW produces about 1,000 cars a day between the *two* plants in GSP. GM produces far more than that at many of their plants, some of which run 24/6. BMW only has two shifts (currently). BMW's output will increase over the next few years when they get the X4 and a 5 series line, but they are still quite slow compared to non-German manufacturers.

I went back and looked up the data. I can confirm it's the largest exporting auto plant in the US.
http://www.plantengineering.com/indu...d87523539ce6fc8ee5becbd0d6740.html
"BMW’s export of passenger vehicles through the Port of Charleston in 2011 totaled $7.4 billion, making it the leading U.S. automotive exporter. According to data from the U.S. Department of Commerce, this represents a 68% increase over BMW's 2010 value. In 2011, over 192,000 vehicles were exported from its Spartanburg, South Carolina, plant."

I may have been wrong that it is largest volume producer, but that was my recollection and I couldn't find list of plants by volume.

The point is the same: Many European companies already produce great products in the South so why shouldn't Airbus if they think it will be beneficial?

The level of bigotory against the South in some posts is shocking and revealing. I have done business in the South for years. Maybe people should actually go there.


User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (2 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 15828 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 88):
Yes it will be. Everything is also pointing to the EURUSD going down to around 0.77, the market had highs in 2008 and 2011, the trend is suggesting a large drop in 2013/2014.

The other side of the coin is it will slide so far as to be unrecoverable. Very likely IMO.

Can you imagine if Boeing tried to open a 737-MAX line in France? There would be riots in the streets.

Airbus is fortunate to have a one-way street in the US. Hope it is sustainable come 2014.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently onlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (2 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 15707 times:

G´day

Quoting babybus (Reply 90):
It would be nice of Airbus if they let them build some of the bigger planes and not just the A320.

With the present backlog of the A 380 a second assembly line for this type in Alabama can likely not be justified right now. Things may be different after the Farnborough airshow though   

Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (2 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 14542 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 24):
Quoting zhiao (Reply 24):
I think people greatly overstate Alabama's low wages. First of all, using the current exchange rates, French full time equivalent wage in 2010 was about $43,000. In Alabama, using the same definition, it was $42,000. Now of course this is for the whole economy and not the manufacturing sector, but it puts to rest the myth that Alabama is low wage. Perhaps there is still an adv in AL vs FR because of the more flexible labor laws and flexibility. It's not just about compensation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ction

I think it has more to do with the lower taxes on corporate earnings; in the US you add about 18-22% to the hourly cost of labor for FICA, SUTA, etc. Now add the corporate tax rate on earnings and compare all of that to the cost of doing business in France. It would make an interesting study that may provide the answer.


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (2 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 14501 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 90):
The level of bigotory against the South in some posts is shocking and revealing. I have done business in the South for years. Maybe people should actually go there.

We're kind of used to it.

I'm always amused by comments such as Alabama being 48th in XXX category. As long as the USA has 50 states, some state is always going to be 50th, 49th, 48th, etc. no matter how well off we are.  

Anyway, good news for Alabama and most likely a good move for Airbus.

David


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 95, posted (2 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 14409 times:

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 93):
I think it has more to do with the lower taxes on corporate earnings;

Except that the US now has the highest corporate tax rate in the developed world.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (2 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 14406 times:

Congrats to Airbus and Alabama. I hope they will eventually offer tours of the facility.

User currently offlinehsvflier From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 14360 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 95):

of which most large corporations pay little to none of it



Flown DL, UA, CO, WN, LH, TZ, WO, AA, US, LO, HA, PX, NW, KE, AB, QR, LX, EE, 5Y
User currently onlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 14128 times:

Flightglobal isn't so sure...

Airbus insists that there are conditions which would need to be met before it could consider a possible production line in the USA.

It says that "no final decision" has been taken regarding a potential final assembly line in Alabama - a proposal which has loosely been termed 'FALabama' and which would probably cater for the A320 and A320neo.


User currently offlinesouthsky From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 13918 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 98):

Flightglobal isn't so sure...

Airbus insists that there are conditions which would need to be met before it could consider a possible production line in the USA.

It says that "no final decision" has been taken regarding a potential final assembly line in Alabama - a proposal which has loosely been termed 'FALabama' and which would probably cater for the A320 and A320neo.

I have cited the Mobile Press-Register below:

"Multiple company, state and local officials confirmed that an agreement was in place to bring Airbus to Mobile, and that company president Fabrice Bregier was scheduled to announce the project at a 10 a.m. news conference at the Mobile Convention Center... The Press-Register obtained copies of invitations to a private dinner with Bregier and local elected officials on Sunday at the Battle House Hotel. Other VIPs were invited to a private breakfast Monday with Bregier at the downtown hotel. Invitations also were extended to executives from the major U.S. airlines and from top suppliers including Pratt & Whitney, GE Aviation and CFM International, among others. Airbus, a subsidiary of the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., already does business in Mobile, employing about 200 at an aerospace engineering center at Brookley. The company also employs about 30 at an Airbus Military hangar at Mobile Regional Airport. Several employees leaving the Airbus engineering center at Brookley on Wednesday said that they had been told not to comment about the project because no official announcement had been made."

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/06/airbus_set_to_announce_a320_pr.html

[Edited 2012-06-28 11:04:41]

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9029 posts, RR: 75
Reply 100, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 13875 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 98):
'FALabama'

I love that term !!!



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 101, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 13779 times:

Quoting hsvflier (Reply 97):

of which most large corporations pay little to none of it

True (as in GE).   



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 102, posted (2 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 13147 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 75):
Let me repeat this once again:

Spain's debt as of 01/01/2012: 68% of its GDP.
USA's debt as of 01/01/2012: 103% of its GDP.

I'm lost with this one, are you saying that all the fuss taking place in Europe regarding the Euro, Greece having multiple elections in a year, France choosing a new president opposed to the austerity programs his pre-decessor supported, Spanish banks applying for bail outs is just fluff, or are you being technical because I used the word debt?
I do not want to re-post but would financial difficulties resulting in high unemployment in some countires in the zone be more acceptable?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
Pedantic footnote - Airbus uses "neo" and not "NEO"

I stand corrected, I tend not to be too formal on internet discussions web site but I also try not to offend, so will ensure that the next time I mention the A32xneo I am correct, thanks  
Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
In what way has it "taken years to get off the ground"?

It is coming online years after Airbus started A320 production, it is also coming online while Airbus is increasing production to 40+ per month - correct me if I'm wrong but the numbers of increased production touted for Europe does not include the China line - so I don't believe the unions have any complaints since they are still gaing jobs through increased production, my basic point was that it is not costing Europe unions any current jobs.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
Why on earth would Airbus build a new A320 production line in the US and NOT build neos there?

Labour peace??????????
AA for example will probably get both classics and neo's, do you anticipate by EIS of the neo Airbus is shooting to have them built in China or on a line in the USA as well as in Europe?
The neo is replacing the classic, my opinion is that any production outsourcing to other countries will first be to eliminate the classic backlog, that is if Airbus sticks to a no-conversion policy.

As Zeke mentioned, if the USA is exporting aviations products to Europe much more than Europe does, it may well be chaper to commence neo production in the USA as it would still be close to their suppliers,


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 103, posted (2 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 13072 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
it may well be chaper to commence neo production in the USA as it would still be close to their suppliers,

I believe parts transportation costs are among the smallest, close to trivial, in the overall cost of an airliner.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 104, posted (2 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 12777 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 103):
I believe parts transportation costs are among the smallest,

I meant aviation parts / products already being built in the USA. Zeke and others have always mentioned the number of aviation products that the USA exports (not Boeing). I would need to go back to the tanker threads where they had graphs showing the USA content in the Airbus A330 and A380, I do not know if such has been done for the A32XX or the neo.
Certainely, it will be for small items as wings and fuselages are all done in Europe.


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (2 years 2 months 15 hours ago) and read 12169 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Ibelieve that Airbus would likw

User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (2 years 2 months 15 hours ago) and read 12093 times:

Quoting hsvflier (Reply 97):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 95):

of which most large corporations pay little to none of it

I have noticed my current and previous employers both stating during quarterly investor conferences that their overall tax rate is in the high 30% range.


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (2 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 12026 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think that Airbus would like to become eligible to become a defense contractor, By building a plant in the USA they very well might be able to support a defense susidiary and really make some noise, Or sponsor some NASA research of their OWN like the Boeing/Nasa 4130 airfoil that they couldn't use because the patent was jointly held by Nasa and Boeing..
Or Maybe even sell the airforce that DOG Airbus A400M Since airbus is owned by EADS..
The French have Long chafed that the US defense complex should be open the Foreign bidding as the USA sells planes and munitions to the EU.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 108, posted (2 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 11429 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting glideslope (Reply 91):
Can you imagine if Boeing tried to open a 737-MAX line in France? There would be riots in the streets.

Why would Americans riot in the streets if Boeing opened a 737 FAL in France?   

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
correct me if I'm wrong but the numbers of increased production touted for Europe does not include the China line

A320 production rates are counted across all FALs.

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
my opinion is that any production outsourcing to other countries will first be to eliminate the classic backlog

That's entirely possible, but it's also clear that Airbus intends to build neos on all FALs.

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
that is if Airbus sticks to a no-conversion policy

Nothing thus far suggests anything will change in that respect.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7882 posts, RR: 52
Reply 109, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 11326 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 108):
Quoting glideslope (Reply 91):
Can you imagine if Boeing tried to open a 737-MAX line in France? There would be riots in the streets.

Why would Americans riot in the streets if Boeing opened a 737 FAL in France?  

I don't foresee full blow riots but a lot of people would be pissed. And it would take a lot for France of all places to look more attractive to Boeing than America (France is a lot more expensive to do business in)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 110, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 11273 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 109):
I don't foresee full blow riots but a lot of people would be pissed.

And what was the reaction to Boeing outsourcing significant parts of 787 production to Japan and Italy?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 111, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 11251 times:

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 48):
French company
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 78):
"Viva La France!"

Just to mention a few...

Could you do me a favour and check the shareholders of Airbus / EADS? I am starting to get offended 

"Sweet home FALAbama
Where the skies are so blue …And the governor's true
… boo boo boo!"


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 112, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 11234 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
Spanish banks applying for bail outs

Yes, Spanish banks will need about €60b in public money. You may want to compare that to the $700b the US banks needed in 2008, not counting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac or the additional money the banks needed in 2010 and 2011.

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
are you being technical because I used the word debt?

Yes, you mentioned the "huge public debt." I just pointed out that public debt in the US is vastly superior (in percentage of GDP) that in Spain. The difference is that the Fed can print dollars at will, while the Bank of Spain can't print euros...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 11223 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 110):
And what was the reaction to Boeing outsourcing significant parts of 787 production to Japan and Italy?

I hope they are talking about FAL's as Airbus is, certainely the production out-sourced by Boeing merely mimicks what Airbus has been doing for years with facilities throughtout the EU.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 114, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 11250 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 113):
the production out-sourced by Boeing merely mimicks what Airbus has been doing for years with facilities throughtout the EU.

It does not. EADS is a French-German-Italian-Spanish company. Boeing is not American-Japanese-Italian.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 10991 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 114):
It does not. EADS is a French-German-Italian-Spanish company. Boeing is not American-Japanese-Italian.

It's a French-German-Spanish company (22,35% FR and DE, and 5,45% ES). Italy doesn't belong to the contractual partnership of EADS.


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (2 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 10928 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting realsim (Reply 115):

Is there a POINT to this?? EADS is a European Defense conglomerate. And???


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 117, posted (2 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 10900 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 110):
And what was the reaction to Boeing outsourcing significant parts of 787 production to Japan and Italy?

A strike by their workforce.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 118, posted (2 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 10867 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 117):
A strike by their workforce.

That was also due to labor contracts that went bad.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 119, posted (2 years 2 months 10 hours ago) and read 10850 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 112):
You may want to compare that to the $700b the US banks needed in 2008, not counting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac or the additional money the banks needed in 2010 and 2011.

I don't see where this had anything to do with the topic at hand, I was mentioning the economic situation in Europe and how it might affect a decision to outsource jobs.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 114):
It does not. EADS is a French-German-Italian-Spanish company. Boeing is not American-Japanese-Italian.

The production method is the point, parts for the a/c are built in a number of countries and final assembly takes place somewhere elses, is that not what Boeing is doing with the 787, something that Airbus has always done?

I have been told on a number of occasions by Europeans on this site that the EU is not a country so.............


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 120, posted (2 years 2 months 10 hours ago) and read 10801 times:

Quoting juantrippe82 (Reply 46):
Wow, providing tax breaks and subsidies. Kinda flies in the face of the free market doesn't it?

At least we have one good criticism in this thread of what happened. Indeed, flies in the face of the free market - and common sense:

http://www.ajc.com/business/in-rare-move-latest-1460845.html

These things are simply not needed. Of course, in most circumstances, who is going to decline free money?

Quoting juantrippe82 (Reply 55):
Economic prosperity for whom? Not the employees.

Why not? Evidence posted in this thread suggests similar pay as in France. Of course, with rock-bottom Alabama living costs to boot.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 121, posted (2 years 2 months 10 hours ago) and read 10764 times:

If it happens I'll be sure to send them a resume.  

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6601 posts, RR: 9
Reply 122, posted (2 years 2 months 8 hours ago) and read 10588 times:

This isn't going to play well here. And I'm not talking about Airbus employees, as it seems nowadays it's everybody bracing for their own job, so as long as they're good they won't bulge. But politically, it's another story. After all, we're told by everyone, left or right, economists and bureaucrats, that we should forget about making shirts and shoes and cars, and make high-tech stuff like planes instead. And now, a company backed up by the state from its start with countless billions, still state owned for 15%, opens yet another factory outside Europe ?

Quoting francoflier (Reply 64):
the new populist government

You mean the one that blamed everything on the immigrants and unions and wanted to close the national borders ? Oh no, that was the rhetoric of the ousted president...



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 123, posted (2 years 2 months 6 hours ago) and read 10484 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 120):
At least we have one good criticism in this thread of what happened. Indeed, flies in the face of the free market - and common sense:

I'm sorry. But local governments competing to offer the best terms to lure valuable industries/businesses into their area IS a perfect example of free market economics....   

And it happens EVERYWHERE. And will continue to do so.

Rgds


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 124, posted (2 years 2 months 5 hours ago) and read 10282 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 87):
Airbus didn't have an A340 line, it is a shared A330/A340 l

I know that.

Quoting zeke (Reply 87):
, they could build a new A340 today if someone really wanted them

Are you really sure, some part's differ and they will have sure shutdown in the meantime the production of this parts.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 125, posted (2 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 10153 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 87):
Also need to look at tax and EXIM bank influences (subject to congress approving an extension) . Aircraft made in the US by Airbus would be eligible for EXIM bank guarantees just like Boeing enjoys, that surely will make some heads spin in Chicago as they lobby for the EXIM bank support.



Does this mean than EXIM could finance Airbus sales in Europe? That would be a coup!

Quoting babybus (Reply 89):
It would be nice of Airbus if they let them build some of the bigger planes and not just the A320.



The A320 is where the work and the money is. For neither the A350 nor the A380 I see the need of a a second FAL. So while I understand the dream this is too unlikely to happen in the next 10 years.

Quoting glideslope (Reply 91):
Can you imagine if Boeing tried to open a 737-MAX line in France? There would be riots in the streets.



At Seattle maybe, not in France.

Quoting par13del (Reply 102):
I'm lost with this one, are you saying that all the fuss taking place in Europe regarding the Euro, Greece having multiple elections in a year, France choosing a new president opposed to the austerity programs his pre-decessor supported, Spanish banks applying for bail outs is just fluff,



It is not a fluff, it is a criminal action by those who have profited from the 2008 crisis and need to construct more crises to increase their profit. The 2008 crisis is the reason of the missing liquidity of the private banking sector still, and the high debts of most states, the US and Europe and Japan (with its 200++% debts), are in part the giant bailouts they paid to the banking system.
If something was done wrong after 2008, it was thank banks who got massive state bailout have not been nationalized before payment of the first tax Dollar or Euro, cleaned up and sold back to the market.


User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2349 posts, RR: 9
Reply 126, posted (2 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 39):
Airbus opening up a factory in Alabama is a good thing. I think growth in the technology sector will allow that region to attract highly educated people and to be introduced to new ideas, new nationalities and international culture. Maybe through this kind of change, southern states may employ greater moderation on social and political issues.

Wow... stereotype much?



"Drunks run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9029 posts, RR: 75
Reply 127, posted (2 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 10231 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 124):
Are you really sure, some part's differ and they will have sure shutdown in the meantime the production of this parts.

Parts continue to be manufactured both for the engines and airframes. It is often forgotten that the OEMs generate a lot of cash flow from ongoing support of existing fleets.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineshankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1541 posts, RR: 1
Reply 128, posted (2 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 10167 times:

Quoting flybyguy (Reply 39):
Maybe through this kind of change, southern states may employ greater moderation on social and political issues

....queue opening chords to Sweet Home Alabama

Quoting glideslope (Reply 91):
Can you imagine if Boeing tried to open a 737-MAX line in France? There would be riots in the streets

...but boy would they be welcomed if they opened a plant here in Blighty



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (2 years 2 months ago) and read 9810 times:

Maybe Boeing and Airbus could coordinate parts collections if they both pick up parts on both sides of the pond? And save some money while at it. They would have a fleet of combined belugas and LCFs..

User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2236 posts, RR: 5
Reply 130, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9504 times:

This is great news. I'm not sure I can see a single negative aspect or consequence of Airbus building a plant in Alabama. Investment+jobs+high-tech..and it's manufacturing. I love it. Plus it's a great product that 320.

Welcome to the USA!


User currently offlineegnr From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8862 times:

Courtesy of Leeham News & Comment: Mobile TV obtains Airbus A320 plant blueprint


7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8697 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 84):
If the Airbus had worries about the Euro, they would NOT do this, because a faible Euro favours production in Europe. Such a decision makes sense if Airbus expects a phase of a strong Euro versus a weak Dollar within the next 10 years, and this I think is a reasonable assumption.

You're missing the point. Airbus wins regardless of whether the EUR/USD exchange rate goes up or down. The idea is to eliminate foreign exchange rate related risk, not making money of the exchange rates. Opening a plant in the US makes sense as Airbus receives its revenue is USD and thus must ensure that its costs are also in USD. Any exchange rate risk is undesirable as they have to hedge against this risk (which isn't cheap in the current market) or run the risk that their profits fluctuate (which investors, stock market analysts and management don't like). Moreover, Airbus is in the business of making planes, not speculating on FX rates.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 133, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8567 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 132):
Opening a plant in the US makes sense as Airbus receives its revenue is USD and thus must ensure that its costs are also in USD.

In wish case they should have done so decades ago, one wonders why they did not if it makes so much financial sense, methinks something else was more important.
Times may have no changed??????????


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8520 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 133):
In wish case they should have done so decades ago, one wonders why they did not if it makes so much financial sense, methinks something else was more important.

It would have indeed made a lot of sense to do this earlier. It may be that it wasn't feasible to do this due to politics or other internal reasons. Moreover, it can be that Airbus tried to use other methods to reduce their exposure, but those didn't work or became too expensive. Who knows (other than Airbus itself).


User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

I hope the leadership of Airbus learns how to say y'all properly. Seriously this would have a huge economic impact on the state and I hope for the sakes of these good folks it happens.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 136, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8310 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LJ (Reply 132):
Opening a plant in the US makes sense as Airbus receives its revenue is USD and thus must ensure that its costs are also in USD.
Quoting par13del (Reply 133):
In wish case they should have done so decades ago...

Decades ago, the A320 was not the market monster it is today...



While outsourcing to China and the United States bring benefits (orders for the former and economics for the latter), how much expansion room is there at XFW and TLS in terms of adding another A320 family FAL?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 137, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 136):
how much expansion room is there at XFW and TLS in terms of adding another A320 family FAL?

I might phrase a response like how much expansion room is their within the Airbus group of countires to accomodate expansion, if compared to opening a FAL in the USA a whole new transportation sub system must be put in place, so its just as long as its wide expanding elsewhere within the EU.

A similar question I would ask is if having too much capacity in one place creates an unintended bottleneck, does increasing their output to 40+ already involve expansion or is it simply speeding up the production process, assumption being the devil that it is I'm assuming a combination of both.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 138, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8110 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting par13del (Reply 137):
does increasing their output to 40+ already involve expansion or is it simply speeding up the production process, assumption being the devil that it is I'm assuming a combination of both.

Any announced production rates were always for the three existing production lines.

If and when the new line is confirmed, we'll have to wait to see what Airbus says that does to production rates.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6601 posts, RR: 9
Reply 139, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8045 times:

There is plenty of space at TLS, and lots of fields around, too.

BTW, I'm looking to maybe move to Toulouse myself, find a (computer) job in the aerospace industry, and houses and condos there are far cheaper than here around Paris, so no need to compare Alabama to Silicon Valley or NYC prices either. And of course we have our "communist" health care and pension systems wherever in the country.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 140, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7942 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 138):
If and when the new line is confirmed, we'll have to wait to see what Airbus says that does to production rates.

Looks like it could do up to 20 planes a month: http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...sible-airbus-mobile.html?ana=yfcpc


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 141, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

Caption says it's for their recruitment program, seems more like a bit of wordplay to me  


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © T.Laurent



User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 142, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6752 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 140):
Looks like it could do up to 20 planes a month

From the link below, initial target is four per month, just like the Tanjin line. To get up to 20 would take quite a while.

"Offical" confirmation, ahead of the real announcement in just two or three hours.
http://www.avionews.com/index.php?co...1142829&pagina_chiamante=index.php

Quote:
Fabrice Brégier, chief executive officer of Airbus, the European giant of the aeronautical sector arrived on Sunday in the US, and today 02/07/2012 will announce the opening of the new factory of the company in Mobile, Alabama, which will be utilized to assembly the A-320 aircraft. The information leaked out in the last days (AVIONEWS), but now Brégier provided an official confirmation.
...
construction will begin in 2013, will finish in 2015 and, once its maximum production rate will be reached in 2017, will be able to manufacture between 40 and 50 A-320 aircraft per year
...



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently onliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2611 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 88):
A lot of those parts are already shipped from the US, if EADS expand on their sea lift capacity, the could take all the A320/A330/A350/A380 parts they export one way, and import A320 sections the other.

   Indeed, over time as the supply chain is reorganized, Airbus could be running ships full of airplane parts both ways across the Atlantic.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 136):
how much expansion room is there at XFW and TLS in terms of adding another A320 family FAL?

With existing FALs, XFW does 22-23 per month, 24-25 should still be possible, TLS is capped at 14 but could do 17, and TSN currently does 3 but was designed for up to 4. So you should be able to get around 46 per month with the current setup (assuming the supply chain can take it!).

As far as physical expansion space, there is plenty at TLS (but the policy was to concentrate single aisle production at XFW, so that might not go too well with existing work agreements). XFW is pretty tight, but it should be possible to just barely squeeze in another line. TSN should have plenty of expansion room, whether it's politically acceptable is another thing.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 144, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6571 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 140):
Looks like it could do up to 20 planes a month:

This is the same size as Toulouse and almost Hamburg size, so not a small local thing like China....


User currently offlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6359 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 64):
What makes Alabama such a popular state for foreign companies to manufacture there?
Labor laws?
Quoting Thijs1984 (Reply 69):
That's correct
That is why many car manufactorers have moved to the south.
Resulting in (for expample ) Steel Maker ThyssenKrupp to follow.

You guys are missing a huge piece of the equation: tax incentives. There are plenty of right to work states across the US. The key piece of this puzzle is that southern states are willing to give foreign companies HUGE tax breaks to set up shop there. I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad strategy, because it helps people in the state find jobs and brings new people to the state. States like Alabama have been hurting for decades, since the textile industry moved overseas, so these states are trying to move forward. This strategy works. Cost of living and being a right to work state does not hurt, but I'm saying you will find states just like that across the country (particularly in the inter-mountain west). But those states may not have the cash flow, or the guts, to offer huge incentives.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1180 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6279 times:

From Airbus's US facebook page:


If Airbus does build a FAL in Mobile I hope the local spotters can put together a blog similar to ToulouseWatch and Hamberg Finkenwerder News:
http://digitalairliners.com/toulouse/
http://xfw-spotter.blogspot.co.nz/

Quoting moo (Reply 70):
Will this be the first time an aircraft family has been produced in four countries on three continents?

During WWII a lot of military aircraft were shipped as parts from the UK/USA and assembled in other parts of the world. Not sure about civil aircraft.

Quoting zeke (Reply 87):
I suspect if they were to build an A340 based transporter, it would be taken from the existing fleet of aircraft in service lie Boeing did for the 747LCF.

Airbus still has a couple of Airbus A340-500s that were destined for Kingfisher Airlines. If Airbus needs parts flown to Mobile maybe a beluga like conversion could be designed for them.

[Edited 2012-07-02 08:07:05]


Air New Zealand; first to commercially fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6162 times:

Live announcement to begin in a few minutes:
http://www.airbus.com/company/americas/us/alabama/


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 148, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6156 times:

Any hint of a new order to be announced at the same time to kick this new FAL off?

User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1609 posts, RR: 7
Reply 149, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6094 times:

Congrats to Mobile, Alabama and Airbus!!!! Really good news this  
Quoting flood (Reply 147):
Live announcement to begin in a few minutes:
http://www.airbus.com/company/americ...bama/

Love the accent of the gentleman currently speaking, ya'll! 



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 150, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

http://www.airbus.com/company/americ...sh-assembly-line-in-united-states/

First plane to be delivered 2016. 40-50 planes a year by 2018.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 151, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5682 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ADent (Reply 150):
First plane to be delivered 2016. 40-50 planes a year by 2018.

That's a fair bit of capital investment for not much output, so I imagine if Airbus does plan significant production boosts down the road, those extra planes will be assembled at MOB and not TLS or XFW.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 152, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 150):
40-50 planes a year by 2018

Ohhhh, what a cute little FAL. This is about 10% of todays A 32X-production.  

Anyway, congratulations to Alabama and Airbus!


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 153, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5472 times:

Prior to this official announcement, Airbus officials were being quoted as saying that all conditions were not in place for a FAL, so here is the 100poung gorilla question, is this FAL and the incentives provided WTO compliant, or does anyone really care?

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 154, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

Fox Business News interviewed a French official this morning; referring to him as Ambassador. This of course may have been a courtesy greeting. The discussion was more geared toward union vs. non-union and the 1000 or so jobs the production facility it planned to create. The French official appeared to shun off Airbus decision to build a plant in the U.S. as a non-issue and a product of the global market


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 155, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5299 times:

What is the breakdown by final assy line?

China ( TSN ) is 4/month for the single line.
Hamburg ( XFW ) opened a 3rd FAL and is expected to go to 25/month.
That leaves 13/month* at Toulouse ( TLS ). Historically it runs at 14/month and has run up to 17.

And of course BFM is planned for 4 - 4.5/month.



* The article ( http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...-assembly-line-in-hamburg-germany/ ) talking about HAMs 3rd FAL was tied to an increase of production to 42/month overall.


User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 587 posts, RR: 3
Reply 156, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5270 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 151):
That's a fair bit of capital investment for not much output,

This is exactly what I'm trying to get my arms around. The upfront capital allocation per frame at FALabama could range between $600,000 and $800,000 assuming 50 frames a year for 15-20 years. Plus, Airbus must contend with managing 4 FALs; adding to the complexity of its supply chain. Tax incentives, savings via some lower expenses and $ denominated costs could help lower the number, but not substantially enough to eliminate the capital outlay.

Seemingly, Boeing takes the more capital efficient approach by increasing the in-line rate on the existing FAL(s) which sits in one location.

The only way to significantly lower the costs is for FALabama to have a.....

Quoting Stitch (Reply 151):
significant production boosts down the road

, those extra planes will be assembled at MOB and not TLS or XFW.

I'd be more than a little pissed if I were working on the FALs in TLS or XFW.



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlinehawkercamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Would just like to thank the op for deleting the other thread but I'd suggest he should have locked this since the confirmation deserved a new one.

User currently offlinehawkercamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 156):
I'd be more than a little pissed if I were working on the FALs in TLS or XFW.

I think they will be!!!


I personally believe there is an element of mitigating the European Euro crisis in this decision.
There are many outcomes to this crisis consider possible. One of this is a Northern Eurozone with Germany, Holland, Austria, Finland, Lux, Belgium and "may be" France remaining. This outcome would be utterly terrible for Airbus. It would see the Euro-Dollar exchange move from $1.25 to £1.6 or more and it would see high inflation/high interest rates in the new eurozone with bigger wage demands. At $1.6 Airbus can not make planes in that currency zone.
I would suggest that the US and Chinese FALs (with rapid expansion possibilities) provides risk mitigation to bad Eurozone outcomes.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Cue Ricky Bobby Vs. Jean Girard  

User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 160, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5141 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 156):
Seemingly, Boeing takes the more capital efficient approach by increasing the in-line rate on the existing FAL(s) which sits in one location.

????
Toulouse ran at 4 - 5 per month once, as did Finkenwerder.
It would be surpassingly naive to imply that Airbus don't sweat their assets IMO

There's no question that Alabama line is an equally long-term investment.
It will be 2018 - 6 years from now, before this line gets to 4 per month.
There's no question in my mind that A320 output will have easily passed 50 per month by then.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 156):
I'd be more than a little pissed if I were working on the FALs in TLS or XFW.

If they are already working flat out,which they are, why would they get "pissed"?
It's no harm to them whatsoever locally, and to the good of the parent organisation globally......

God forbid that we accept that Airbus can actually make good industrial decisions........

Rgds


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 161, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5030 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting par13del (Reply 153):
Prior to this official announcement, Airbus officials were being quoted as saying that all conditions were not in place for a FAL

Simple obfuscation to calm down speculation ahead of the official announcement.

Quoting ADent (Reply 155):
China ( TSN ) is 4/month for the single line.

It's currently at three/month but will be up to four by December.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 162, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4973 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 161):
It's currently at three/month but will be up to four by December.

Correct.  http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ctory-to-assemble-a320neos-373643/

Quote:
At present, Tianjin produces three aircraft per month, Toulouse 15 and Hamburg 22. In the fourth quarter, when total production rises to 42 per month, Tianjin and Hamburg will each build an additional aircraft per month.

For me, the timing makes perfect sense.
Airbus seem reluctant to go beyond 42 per month until the A320neo comes on line in 2015.
The Alabama line comes online in 2015.
Just nicely timed for the "neo" ramp up which is as inevitable as night following day IMO.

If that's the case, 2013 will see more output than 2012, but 2014 and 2015 will be flat. The rates will then be planned to rise substantially beyond 2015.
50 by 2018? Don't see why not.

Rgds


User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 163, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

I am a little surprised that the output levels are so small initially. But maybe it takes time to build up to a bigger capacity, and that is probably their goal. Building up capacity of the parts suppliers is btw probably the biggest bottleneck.

By the way, I think all this discussion about how workers feel at any of these places is pretty irrelevant. For most companies the workers see growth and additional factories is as a good thing. (Cutting production is another thing...) For Airbus, it obviously allows them to hedge costs on three different continents. And to set countries to compete on the tax breaks that they get.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 164, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4880 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

As astuteman noted, there is no real reason for Airbus employees at TLS or XFW to be any more annoyed with a FAL in MOB anymore than for, say, Boeing employees at PAE to be annoyed about the FAL in CHS because the new plants are not replacing existing workers, but adding new ones. Yes, from a local employment standpoint that new jobs are being created elsewhere is not something to crow about, but overall, employment is rising and existing workers are not under threat of being downsized.

User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 165, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4641 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 164):
Yes, from a local employment standpoint that new jobs are being created elsewhere is not something to crow about, but overall, employment is rising and existing workers are not under threat of being downsized.

This is true for the FAL workers, but of course for all the workers that make everything that ends up at the FAL, any overall increase in production directly benefits them.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinehawkercamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 166, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 164):

For now! But when the big decisions come in the future - who knows


User currently offlinetomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 167, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 164):
Yes, from a local employment standpoint that new jobs are being created elsewhere is not something to crow about, but overall, employment is rising and existing workers are not under threat of being downsized.

On top of this, there is even the prospect for the workers of the European FALs to experience a more stable employment. For the companies based in continental Europe, one of the hurdle is the lack of flexibility of the employment contracts, laying of is more difficult (it takes more time) than in the US or China. So the US and Chinese FALs might also be seen as flexible tools to adjust Airbus'output to the market demand, while keeping the European FALs output stable near their optimum output rate.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 168, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4477 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting hawkercamm (Reply 166):
For now! But when the big decisions come in the future - who knows...

Well XFW is certainly going nowhere, since it can make any model of the A320 family.

And when Airbus management floated the idea of closing down the A320 FAL in TLS to add a fourth FAL in XFW in exchange for having all A350XWB production work done in TLS, both the French and German unions protested. So TLS still has their A320 line and fuselage panels for the A350 are manufactured at XFW.

As such, I do not see Airbus management being able to shift existing A320 production from the XFW and TLS FALs to the MOB and TJN ones. In my opinion, MOB (and to a lesser extent, TJN) will be used to support future production rate increases.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4722 posts, RR: 39
Reply 169, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4437 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 168):
As such, I do not see Airbus management being able to shift existing A320 production from the XFW and TLS FALs to the MOB and TJN ones. In my opinion, MOB (and to a lesser extent, TJN) will be used to support future production rate increases.

That is exactly how I see it as well. It will give Airbus the flexibility where and when they need it. A well thought-out move imho.  .


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 170, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 169):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 168):
As such, I do not see Airbus management being able to shift existing A320 production from the XFW and TLS FALs to the MOB and TJN ones. In my opinion, MOB (and to a lesser extent, TJN) will be us