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CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA  
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1099 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14242 times:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...e/20120625/SUB1/306259974/0/SEARCH Just take a walk through the terminal its packed!


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
132 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14126 times:

Well, I have to say - hooray for CLE.

Living here in Denver, it's quite worrisome in its own way that UA will downsize or abandon DEN. Since there are our own worries, usually little thought is given to CLE. However, when and if thought is given, it is for the positive, in hopes that pmUA will recognize that CLE has value to the system, and the CLE will remain a hub.

So far, CLE has managed to do a good convincing job to the new UA. I think that Cleveland does have what's needed to be a successful hub (hey, it even supports 2 commercial airports in the region) but in the new UA, geography is what is working against it remaining a hub here. But it seems to be strong enough in all of the other factors to make it work as a hub, and it seems the city/community is making an all-out effort that UA see this. Plus, with all of the FFs that they have there, it would be silly to dehub CLE - even if the had 6 flights per day that somehow had connections (heaven help us if so, anyway) it would still be a hub, and UA would be quite foolish in my opinion to alienate the populace there, and leave a big chunk of change there on the table for other carriers. So somehow, CLE will remain a hub in some way, unless of course, the management of UA completely looses its marbles, and although possible, highly improbably.

With that, back to geography, CLE may loose a few flights here and there due to its proximity with ORD, but I don't think that it will be too significant. All things being equal, I think that loosing 15-20% would be on the high range, if CLE looses anything at all. And while geography is working against CLE right now, what Clevelandites (Clevelanders?) need to remember right now is that UA is really pi**ed off at IAH - so take advantage guys..... look at what DEN got! Funny how suddenly UA management is playing nicey now with its other hubs, eh?

At any rate, I think that an LHR, or an LH FRA flight would be quite possible and successful from CLE today, if UA of LH would consider it. The city/community has shown that it can give the new UA what it wants most - $$$$$.

And personally, all the best to CLE. I transferred though there a couple of times years ago - nice airport, basically good location - everything that can make a successful hub work. Keep at it.



 

[Edited 2012-06-28 06:43:34]

User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3242 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14112 times:

Quoting cle757 (Thread starter):
Just take a walk through the terminal its packed!

The boarding areas are likely very dated, small and ineffficient, which helps give this sort of impression.



.......
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14087 times:

CLE is perfectly suited as a Q400 / E-jet / 737 hub. Throw those ERJs away, prune excessive connectivity that's better handled by ORD/IAD, and CLE might just become a self-sustaining focus city instead of suffering the MEM/CVG fate.

At least the CEOs were honest during the merger process that CLE is high priority for trimming.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14076 times:

I think everyone was pretty shocked when UA started flying 757s into CLE. Glad to see at there is still an OK amount of mainline presence.

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Living here in Denver, it's quite worrisome in its own way that UA will downsize or abandon DEN.

DEN will be fine. The recent issues with WN and HOU just proved that.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1099 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13989 times:

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 2):
The boarding areas are likely very dated, small and ineffficient, which helps give this sort of impression.

Not any worse then some other airports..like IAD,parts of IAH,LAX etc etc



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineprimetimeDC9 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13940 times:

I hope that CLE survives. It is an easy airport to get in and out of, it's easy to navigate, and it is in a good geographic location. For people who have to connect it is nice to be able to avoid mega-hubs which have more delays on both the inbound and outbound side of things. With the demise of Pittsburgh and Cincinnati you would think that UA would be smart to hold on to Cleveland as these airports definately have there appeal to travelers (certainly better than connecting through Philly or New York for example). For the record Cleveland has just as much terminal space as 90% of the other airports out there.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5213 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13841 times:

Quoting primetimeDC9 (Reply 6):
With the demise of Pittsburgh and Cincinnati you would think that UA would be smart to hold on to Cleveland

I think an excellent case can be made that CLE (with its Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, New York state, Pennsylvania, and other feeds) diverts more traffic from DTW, 83nm away, than it does from ORD. As a corollary, if UA closed CLE, DL would be a bigger winner than UA.

If it loses a ton of money, it's obviously not worth keeping. If it loses just a little, or is actually profitable as the article indicates, why close it and eat the write-offs? Plus, UA would still be on the hook for paying off the Concourse D debt.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8090 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13613 times:

No no, you don't understand. CLE will close. Probably tomorrow, in fact. There's zero reason for a hub to be there, even if it makes money, because EWR and ORD are bigger and more aviation dorks like them better.

This is obviously just propaganda.

[Edited 2012-06-28 08:53:11]


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User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13523 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
No no, you don't understand. CLE will close. Probably tomorrow, in fact. There's zero reason for a hub to be there, even if it makes money, because EWR and ORD are bigger and more aviation dorks like them better.

This is obviously just propaganda.

I think that there's a lot of really good snark here...... I think?


 


User currently offlinejetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13484 times:

The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February. CLE may be making money, but SFO is far and away the most profitable hub for UA and they are wanting to redistribute their 737 fleet west.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8090 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13447 times:

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):

The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February. CLE may be making money, but SFO is far and away the most profitable hub for UA and they are wanting to redistribute their 737 fleet west.

Having grown up with nothing but CO 737's around, that would be weird! However, A319's and 320's can do nearly the same job, and those have been multiplying like rabbits at CLE lately.



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User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1099 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13443 times:

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):
The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February

Maybe, but how many Airbuses and 757's will there be?



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13425 times:

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):
The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February.

737 departures, not all mainline. 737s are replacing a lot of Airbus/757 frequencies at the s-UA hubs and the converse is happening at s-CO hubs. I suspect CLE will follow IAH in a trend toward more s-UA metal as 737s migrate to DEN/SFO/ORD.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13386 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 13):

I feel there was more sUa metal at CLE about a month ago. CLE-LAX/SEA are back to 738 and 739 now for instance.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13333 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
So far, CLE has managed to do a good convincing job to the new UA. I think that Cleveland does have what's needed to be a successful hub (hey, it even supports 2 commercial airports in the region) but in the new UA, geography is what is working against it remaining a hub here. But it seems to be strong enough in all of the other factors to make it work as a hub, and it seems the city/community is making an all-out effort that UA see this. Plus, with all of the FFs that they have there, it would be silly to dehub CLE - even if the had 6 flights per day that somehow had connections (heaven help us if so, anyway) it would still be a hub, and UA would be quite foolish in my opinion to alienate the populace there, and leave a big chunk of change there on the table for other carriers. So somehow, CLE will remain a hub in some way, unless of course, the management of UA completely looses its marbles, and although possible, highly improbably.

Nothing written above makes any sense. You write like CLE is a human being with the ability to control it's own destiny. Either it's profitable to operate a hub there, or it's not, and many factors control the fate of Cleveland which are not always in it's direct control. You can only whittle a hub down so much before it collapses. If you don't have enough inflows to push downstream flights in the absence of a decent local demand, the hub will die. That's what's happened at MEM, CVG, and PIT. It is highly likely to happen at CLE at some point. This is not because Chicago lost their marbles, it's because the economics don't make sense anymore.

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
With that, back to geography, CLE may loose a few flights here and there due to its proximity with ORD, but I don't think that it will be too significant. All things being equal, I think that loosing 15-20% would be on the high range, if CLE looses anything at all. And while geography is working against CLE right now, what Clevelandites (Clevelanders?) need to remember right now is that UA is really pi**ed off at IAH - so take advantage guys..... look at what DEN got! Funny how suddenly UA management is playing nicey now with its other hubs, eh?

Here's the difference with DEN, any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR. Much of the upper midwest and and smaller western markets can only be served through DEN in the United network. De-hubbing DEN would be a huge hole in the portfolio and would cede the entire market to DL (SLC, MSP). Denver is not going anywhere.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13330 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
I feel there was more sUa metal at CLE about a month ago. CLE-LAX/SEA are back to 738 and 739 now for instance.

The schedules are pretty fluid. Metal is moving all around the system right now.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13234 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Nothing written above makes any sense.

Why?

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR.

Really?


 


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8090 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13194 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
it's because the economics don't make sense anymore.

What about "the hub is profitable" doesn't make sense to you? Hub makes money, hub stays. Regardless of whether ORD or EWR could theoretically take the traffic (EWR can't even handle it's own traffic without massive delays), if CLE is profitable it'll stay. Why do you think it can't be profitable?

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
De-hubbing DEN would be a huge hole in the portfolio and would cede the entire market to DL (SLC, MSP). Denver is not going anywhere.

WHAT market? If UAL doesn't care about CLE, why would they care about Casper, Cedar Rapids, or Bozeman?!

[Edited 2012-06-28 10:36:24]


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User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13187 times:

From the actual article:

...said Greg Hart, United's senior vice president/network. He added, “Year over year, (Cleveland Hopkins International Airport's) performance is better than some other hubs in terms of profitability."...

Don't know if that means "some other" UA or some other airline hub ops, don't care. Either way, its positive news, period, and something for the vulchers eagerly waiting for the demise that would satisfy their crystal ball predictions to chew on.

That said, anything can happen, including UA squeezing CLE with slow incrementally higher fares and fewer flights especially now that cheerleading movement exists along with the residual publicity.

I sincerely hope it lasts, continues, grows...but it wouldn't surprise me if UA were to rake CLE over the barrel further like I described above and continue to garner support for a "hub" consisting of even 50 or fewer dailies, just so they remain #1 in terms of flight numbers. Take the already high O&D% of seats filled now and squeeze more airfare, thereby killing off the demand which the hugely limited competition can't fill.

Doom & gloom, but anything is possible in this ridiculous industry and NOTHING is forever, NOTHING...


User currently onlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13160 times:
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The demise of the CLE is always the talk of the town here at a.net. But it seems to hang on.

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):
The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February. CLE may be making money, but SFO is far and away the most profitable hub for UA and they are wanting to redistribute their 737 fleet west.

What is described here is a near total drawdown. I think if this situation were the case in February, I think we would know this with more certainty by now.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13090 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 16):
The schedules are pretty fluid. Metal is moving all around the system right now.

I'm just praying they move fewer A319/320s to my hometown airport, since those are terrible for F upgrade chances, even when using miles or instruments


User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12966 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 17):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Nothing written above makes any sense.

Why?

What is CLE doing to show UA that it should keep the hub? Are the suddenly showing up in droves at the airport buying tickets to LAS.

Let's get serious here. The City has only a few options available. They can reduce rent, invest in infrastructure (mostly through bonds), or other tax incentives. All these have negative implications to the City in the short term. And the benefit to United might still be outweighed by more profitable flying.

Quoting point2point (Reply 17):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR.

Really?

Yes. Can you name one that can't?

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
it's because the economics don't make sense anymore.

What about "the hub is profitable" doesn't make sense to you? Hub makes money, hub stays. Regardless of whether ORD or EWR could theoretically take the traffic (EWR can't even handle it's own traffic without massive delays), if CLE is profitable it'll stay. Why do you think it can't be profitable?

I didn't say CLE is, I implied "if." If there's more money to be had shifting flying from somewhere else and the markets can be supported from another hub, yes CLE is a goner.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
De-hubbing DEN would be a huge hole in the portfolio and would cede the entire market to DL (SLC, MSP). Denver is not going anywhere.

WHAT market? If UAL doesn't care about CLE, why would they care about Casper, Cedar Rapids, or Bozeman?!

Your two statements are incongruous.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8090 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12830 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 22):
I didn't say CLE is, I implied "if." If there's more money to be had shifting flying from somewhere else and the markets can be supported from another hub, yes CLE is a goner.

I don't think the second part of that statement is true. How can you support CLE-Anywhere if you don't fly through CLE? The market to be supported is Cleveland, and it requires service to X number of cities. You can't de-hub Cleveland, move everything to Chicago or Newark, and say "the market is now supported here" because it isn't. Cleveland is the market.



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User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12828 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):

EWR cannot handle the traffic. Slots are maxed out. CLE isn't even in the northeast!

The argument is CLE vs. ORD. And if O&D is strong in CLE (which it is) I don't forsee it going away.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
25 flyguy89 : I’d like to see CLE stay but the numbers just aren’t bearing it out. They’ve slowly been decreasing service levels over the years and are now o
26 Post contains images point2point : They're showing up in droves at the airport and buying tickets on UA to anywhere and everywhere, including LAS. I want to fly from BOS to CLE. How ar
27 mogandoCI : Playing devil's advocate here - you can also do BOS-IAD-CLE
28 N766UA : IAD can be horribly delay-prone too, especially when thunderstorms fire up. CLE is absolutely the best westward-connecting hub in the system for thos
29 strfyr51 : A Long as CLE doesn't make the mistake of Taxing UAL like they were doing to CAL?? Then we ehould stay there as long as we can. But if they forget tha
30 airzim : What argument are you making or refuting? I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Not true in the slightest. EWR can handle lots more tr
31 chicawgo : Hahaha yeah that's exactly what UA needs... a major hub in Florida. I'm sure that's at the top of their list! Anyway, they kind of have a mini-hub in
32 N766UA : No, that's absolutely true. Newark is saturated; it can't even reliably handle the traffic it has now.
33 Post contains images point2point : Lordy, lordy, lordy..... after all of that, somehow I think that we're in agreement?? And personally, I would like to see CLE do well with UA, and ho
34 DCA-ROCguy : What I wonder is, what percentage of UA CLE traffic is connecting nowadays? The hub has been whittled down so much, and has so many RJ's, that it may
35 STT757 : Exactly, replacing a 50 seat ERJ with a 180 seat 737 more than triples the capacity just on that one specific flight.
36 AADC10 : Profitability of a hub is difficult to evaluate. A hub is a connection point and airlines hope to have as much O&D as they can get. CO used CLE b
37 Post contains images point2point : The article states that the performance at CLE is better than other hubs in terms of profitability. So 1) there's profit there and 2) then whatever h
38 southwest737500 : I feel if the hub is making money why downsize.
39 flyguy89 : Businesses are about maximizing profit as well, so if assets from a profitable operation can be making even more money elsewhere, then that business
40 drerx7 : I really don't want to hi-jack this thread...but you DEN fans have some facts misconstrued... DEN didn't get anything that came at the expense of IAH
41 BNE : I think a small history lesson would be needed. One of the main reasons that Continental ended up in Cleveland was that United scaled down there prese
42 FlyPNS1 : The big question is what happens to CLE when UA's costs jump (as they will when UA signs new labor deals) and as UA dumps most of it's 50 seater fleet
43 kgaiflyer : That's funny because I do IAD-CLE-BOS occasionally when non-stop WAS-BOS fares go through the roof. I pay a lower fare and almost always get upgraded
44 flylku : I just don't see that happening for the reason stated below:
45 ncflyer : As a clevelander I must say fares are though the roof here compared to what they used to be just a few years ago and compared to nearby PIT. I know it
46 Post contains images skycub : Really? I seriously thought that the demise of TOLEDO was the talk of the town here at a.net.
47 jetpixx : First off, I am originally from CLE...and I hope the day never comes where UA screws my hometown for a second time. However, UA reminds me of LeBron J
48 Post contains images point2point : Oh for heaven's sakes.... Yes, this is true, but it is also curious as to the timing of all of this IIRC..... CO announces IAH-AKL, the merger betwee
49 STT757 : The difference is very small, UA has their Q400s and ERJs using what are traditionally mainline gates that handled anything from a 737 to 777. The Q4
50 izbtmnhd : I'm a little lost on what you are trying to argue in your multiple posts. It's not like an a.nutter is calling CLE a more profitable hub than others.
51 tommy767 : But this is exactly what the PMCO fans were arguing against a while back. They were saying you can't upgauge to 737s from EWR to these smaller desina
52 Post contains links thenoflyzone : Airport stats tell a different story ! Decrease in passenger numbers for the last 4 years. http://www.clevelandairport.com/Airp...Guide/About-CLE/Air
53 lightsaber : I'm glad CLE seems to be doing well. But it struck me as too much of a regional jet hub back in 2000 and that hasn't improved. The issue for CLE is th
54 laca773 : I think we'll continue to see UA changing, up and downgauging every flight with the exception of a few very specific markets. I think something very
55 joeman : Might as well drive which is exactly what the industry is doing to certain markets especially in the northeast by devoting full attention to their pe
56 joeman : You mean like having them chip in for the cost of a new runway and other infrastructure only built after CO bellyaching about not being able to expan
57 Post contains images point2point : You can do that only if Jeff Smisek tells you that you can do that. If he doesn't tell you to do that, then obviously no...... you can't do that.....
58 izbtmnhd : Uhhh....pull down of ops (including WN with UA) has a tendency to pull down pax numbers. Not quite sure what your point is. Smisek never said anythin
59 fun2fly : Overall, good comments by Smisek and much better than in years past. Also, interesting to note that CLE is doing better than other hubs. What (at leas
60 Post contains images point2point : This statement is somewhat vague (at least for me) in that what measurement is JS using? If it's yield per passenger, then I would believe that LAX,
61 MasseyBrown : For the 4th quarter of 2011, UA hub yields were: IAH - 23.36 CLE - 22.48 ** IAD - 20.43 ** CHI - 20.32 ** NYC - 18.64 ** DEN - 17.93 SFO - 16.82 ** L
62 thenoflyzone : My point is, CLE doing good for UA doesnt mean CLE is doing good. Quite the contrary, in fact. It's like camouflaging the reality. "Hey...look at us.
63 Post contains images point2point : Hey, pretty close for guessing just off the top of my head, eh?. At any rate, I guess with WN's fares increasing at MDW of late, it seems that ORD is
64 Post contains images drerx7 : LOL, what you need to look at point2point is the IAH yields compared to the DEN yields...
65 Post contains images joeman :
66 BHMNONREV : Something to keep in mind here. This is almost verbatim what was being said in STL maybe 6-8 years ago by AA, that STL was the most profitable hub in
67 peanuts : Probably the single most important reason CLE is in danger. Even with great O&D traffic. Anything else is just noise.
68 Post contains images point2point : Okay, I can see that IAH is $5.43 higher...... But if we can, let's take this one step further, and see how much yield each hub contributes into the
69 genybustrvlr : CLE's main problem is that it is less than 500 miles from EWR, IAD, and ORD. No connecting revenue will be lost if CLE disappears because one or more
70 skycub : I really have to wonder how many are going to WN. Southwest is, I believe, at an all time low for Cleveland service. The number of flights to Chicago
71 Post contains links and images CompensateMe : This thread needs a little music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ3plaSowWc It would be cool if somebody were to make a UA/CO @ CLE tribute video .
72 genybustrvlr : If this data is accurate, makes my wonder why were talking about CLE dropping rather than LAX... CLE is highly O&D w/ nice yield. LAX is almost h
73 drerx7 : Even though there will probably be a perpetual IAH vs. DEN debate between us - the work put into that table definitely earns you a spot on my respecte
74 MasseyBrown : The yield data I posted was from the DOT Consumer Air Fare report for the 1000 largest markets in Q4, 2011. It's not comprehensive, but it's probably
75 usflyer msp : I find this to be interesting. I am supposed to be flying MSP-CLE-BUF-CLE-MSP next month but I got rerouted via ORD in both directions due to CLE sche
76 YYZAMS : I am looking at flights for xmas already and most flights have a conx through CLE. I am wondering if I book that I might get an email closer to the da
77 Post contains images point2point : Well thank you kindly..... I do believe that the data is representative. I don't think that anything will vary more than about a couple of points or
78 fun2fly : WN has decided to stay in CAK and be the main carrier there. They have added CAK to MDW and DEN. WN has always had a hard time competing against the
79 Post contains links Highflier92660 : There has been exhaustive discussion over the viability of a continued United hub in CLE and whether or not there is a sinister and secret plan hatche
80 drerx7 : Well, I think the CLE as a reliever hub to free up seats for ORD O&D traffic is the accepted premise...however, I believe CLE's strength is O&
81 AADC10 : The article states that CLE is more profitable than some hubs. Tough hubs with heavy competition like DEN and LAX are probably marginal ones but they
82 united319 : I think that is a big reason why the A319/A320 aircraft are moving to CLE is that ORD, SFO, & LAX have huuuuuuuge #'s of Premiers. I think they a
83 Post contains images point2point : Unfortunately, this does have a way of scaling down CLE, in spite of the fact that I would personally want them to remain a busy hub. If UA does have
84 CompensateMe : CLE peaked for WN in the late 1990s/early 2000s when service included 4xBNA, 4xSTL, 6xBWI and 8xMDW for a total of 22 weekday departures. Although we
85 joeman : and limited connection opportunities, see reply 75 although this has been going on for for a long long time...... Shortly after the first year of CLE
86 CODC10 : I don't understand. Scheduling of the CLE-LGW flight was entirely within CO's control. If anything I could understand complaints arising from the loc
87 fun2fly : Many good comments on the economics of the RJ that hurt RJ heavy CLE. However, UA has done some things to improve profitability at CLE w/a few more ma
88 tommy767 : Call me crazy but despite the mere 42% of market share, DEN makes a pretty good profit? Even CLE and LAX make a respectable amount of dough. DL is mor
89 STT757 : DL has an ambitious plan for replacing their 50 seaters with 70 seaters, no doubt, however it requires their pilots approving a major expansion to th
90 FlyPNS1 : The TA with the pilots passed, so DL can get more 70+ seaters and the 717's. So now the pressure is on UA to come up with a strategy to replace all t
91 tommy767 : CLE sees 757s on and off to LAX, SFO, MCO, SEA, TPA etc. They should have thought about how foolish it was going to be to buy several hundred ERJs ba
92 STT757 : Which airline didn't buy hundreds of 50 seaters in the late '90s? That was the era of one "Industry leading contract" after another, the pilots were
93 CODC10 : And Pan Am should have thought about how foolish it was going to be to buy all those 747s back in the 60s. That came back to "bite them in the ass re
94 tommy767 : DL is dumping the Cr2s. I have yet to see a plan of what UA plans to do with the insane amount of ERJs they own.
95 CODC10 : They need a joint pilot contract first. They aren't there yet.
96 N766UA : I'm wondering why CLE hasn't seen any E-jet flights since the merger? Seems like a prime place for E70 or at least CR7 traffic.
97 drerx7 : Probably just because the demand for them was greater at IAH and EWR.
98 MasseyBrown : That's a theory I've often heard but never understood: how is a 752 from EWR to LHR more valuable than a 752 from CLE to LHR with similar fares, simi
99 tommy767 : They probably could use a few more E70s. The fleet is stretched pretty thin between EWR, DEN, ORD ops.
100 STT757 : UA needs a ton more 70+ seaters, to replace the 50 seaters, however they need to ratify a new joint contract with the pilots. Something like UA order
101 tommy767 : Not to mention a better F cabin RJ product. Giving out snack boxes on 3 hour runs is unacceptable.
102 Post contains images izbtmnhd : Trying to spin facts to fit opinion dosen't make opinion "fact". That you think CLE's O&D is substantiallly smaller than what it is, despite nume
103 PITrules : That's a "mere" 42% of an air travel market that is more than 5 TIMES larger than CLE... Perhaps EWR-LHR has more O&D traffic than CLE-LHR, which
104 fun2fly : Any chance the city and UA could come up with a deal to have a newly configured 763 assigned to CLE>FRA? Incentives, landing fee waivers, etc.? See
105 joeman : I wish so, but sincerely doubt it with substantially reduced connection availability and an established history of limited CLE interest...
106 EricR : You are on the right track. While CLE may have a high yield and doing ok, it does not contribute as much to the total profit line as the other hubs d
107 MasseyBrown : I disagree. For many city-pairs DTW will be a better choice than any remaining UA hub. For GRB, MSN, MKE, DAY, CMH, IND to the East and PVD, BDL, ALB
108 Post contains images izbtmnhd : You seem to imply that CLE was some giant connection hub to begin with. That's why I still laugh at the PIT, CVG and STL comparisons on here. CLE is
109 flyguy89 : This is true, CLE has never been a mega hub, but then again neither was MEM. I think the gist of what people are trying to say is take his comments w
110 N766UA : No no, they're experts, and they're unfailingly correct. CLE could be around for another 120 years, and on that 120th year, when the hub finally clos
111 FlyPNS1 : If I'm flying BDL-LAX, why is DTW any better of a hub than ORD or IAD? About the only rational I could figure is a nicer terminal building. DL report
112 izbtmnhd : NE Ohio is larger than the MEM tri-state area. CLE was always an O&D hub, was MEM? I don't know. I do know MEM isn't competing with an LCC carrie
113 N766UA : What are you talking about? That's exactly what CLE has been for decades! As a CO hub, with the exception of a few seasons worth of LGW/LHR service a
114 flyguy89 : Lying? No, spinning is the more correct word which CEO's are masters at, good press is certainly not a bad thing for airlines. As far as profitabilit
115 TecumsehSherman : "Profit", in the minds of most people means one thing: is it making money or not? If CLE is, then they should remain as they are, or, hopefully, grow
116 MasseyBrown : Note I said eastern cities to the Midwest, not California. BDL-DTW-GRB, for one example, is about 120 miles shorter than BDL-ORD-GRB and there is no
117 EricR : A customer is not going to bark over a 120 mile difference. The flight times are going to be identical. Furthermore, most of the cities you listed in
118 flyguy89 : ...and there's the rub. I believe that CLE is profitable, but if it's making decent money for UA, then where are the flights? This was my point about
119 boilerla : It's called right sizing. The hub is profitable now that the number of flights matches O&D demand. pmCO was using CLE as a midwestern hub, routin
120 CompensateMe : I ponder how many participants within this tread bothered to read the article. Smisek himself never said CLE was profitable. The quote "Year over yea
121 fun2fly : Let's take a high level look at what is happening: 1) CLE is profitable or better than other hubs. Either way you look at it, it is better than the "e
122 MasseyBrown : The customer may not care, but the airline should. 120 miles on an ~800 mile route is 15 percent circuitous flying. In an industry that measures its
123 FlyPNS1 : Actually, they really can't. Until UA gets labor deals done and develops a strategy for replacing 50 seat RJ's, they're kind of stuck. If UA totally
124 EricR : Agreed, however, UA does not have a hub in DTW. Therefore, I think it would have been better to compare BDL-ORD-GRB to BDL-CLE-GRB and not BDL-DTW-GR
125 Post contains images UNITED91 : Completely agree. IMO I think CLE will stay, but not as a hub more of a focus city. Currently UA has mainline to 19 cities, 6 of which are UA hubs, a
126 TecumsehSherman : Or an increase in service. People forget that in '08, CO was planning a major expansion in CLE, then the economy tanked. The economy still isn't back
127 AADC10 : UA will not bolt at the end of the agreement. That would make them look bad and it would be disruptive. The only hub that vanished practically overni
128 fun2fly : Where exactly would you put the extra 3mm pax at ORD and EWR if you were to close CLE? On RJ's at remote gates at EWR? Or perhaps further wow custome
129 FlyPNS1 : There is no concourse G at IAD these days. In terms of gate space, IAD wouldn't be a problem as you could create additional banks. Right now, UA's ga
130 EricR : That is an easy objective to achieve. Keep in mind that DL is doing this at the moment with CVG & MEM. I am going to use the data in table 68 as
131 MasseyBrown : That's what UA did the last time they closed CLE. They reduced it to about 70-80 dailies to the top destinations and then conceded any route on which
132 N766UA : Absolutely. I can tell you for sure I'd stop flying UA the second CLE was no longer an option. Connecting in ORD or EWR? Ha! No thanks.
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