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Rumor: Spirit & Allegiant Merger?  
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 803 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13111 times:

Rumors have been circling within the last couple of weeks at NK that a merger may be in the works. I just wanted to post here and see if there's any other rumors of this being circulated. I just want to be perfectly clear that I have no factual information on the matter.

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13011 times:

I would say a more likely candidate would be Spirit and Frontier. Similar fleet make up and management
positions at NK have recently been filled by ex-Frontier staff.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12884 times:

Allegiant had posted a job opening for an Airbus fleet manager- that adds fuel to the fire


These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineDDJohnsonEGNT From UK - England, joined Jun 2012, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12530 times:

Just what I was going to add, also Spirit and Allegiant both seem to have a pretty good presence at LAS, at least thats the way it seemed when I was there a few weeks back!

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7548 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12288 times:

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 1):
I would say a more likely candidate would be Spirit and Frontier. Similar fleet make up and management

How many mergers have been done based on fleet commonality? Pretty much zero. Nobody wants to be in DEN's 3 carrier mess. If anybody wanted to buy F9 they would have already, it's been for sale for months and months and months.

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 1):
positions at NK have recently been filled by ex-Frontier staff.

Other than Ted Christie who came to NK by way of Pinnacle, who else? BTW, being CFO at companies in the kind of shape that F9 and PNCL were in when he was there probably does not inspire him to promote merging with either.


User currently offlineInfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12085 times:

I can see a threesome happening with these three carriers. Allegiant and Spirit merging and getting aircraft from Frontier before or after they collapse.   

User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2827 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12075 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):

How many mergers have been done based on fleet commonality? Pretty much zero. Nobody wants to be in DEN's 3 carrier mess. If anybody wanted to buy F9 they would have already, it's been for sale for months and months and months.

The three way "mess" as you put it would be fine for Spirit. No one is going to undercut them on price. Great O&D market, decent tourism, and a nice hub point in the middle of the country?

I still think WN is more likely, but this isn't insane.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12052 times:

I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations. I just don't see G4's operational model working with NK's operating model. G4 flies their routes on a less than daily frequency while NK's routes are for the most part daily (although some operate once a day). I don't see how they could mesh those two concepts together and it be profitable.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7548 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11917 times:

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 6):
The three way "mess" as you put it would be fine for Spirit. No one is going to undercut them on price.

Nobody will undercut them because there is no need to. If you look at their markets. Where they have been matched they leave. They will be matched pretty closely in a mess like DEN.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11803 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations. I just don't see G4's operational model working with NK's operating model. G4 flies their routes on a less than daily frequency while NK's routes are for the most part daily (although some operate once a day). I don't see how they could mesh those two concepts together and it be profitable.

Agreed. While G4 and NK are both considered ULCCs, the similarities stop there. In addition to the differences mentioned by srbmod above, G4 does not allow for connections and generally serves smaller communities that simply cannot support daily service among many other differences. NK and F9 seem like a better fit from a business model standpoint than NK and G4.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11611 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 9):


NK and F9 seem like a better fit from a business model standpoint than NK and G4.

Certainly more plausible, and F9 is being gussied up for a spin-off. A combo of F9 and NK would certainly bump them up into the B6 level of network coverage.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8707 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 9):
Agreed. While G4 and NK are both considered ULCCs, the similarities stop there. In addition to the differences mentioned by srbmod above, G4 does not allow for connections and generally serves smaller communities that simply cannot support daily service among many other differences. NK and F9 seem like a better fit from a business model standpoint than NK and G4.

Could the models help each other (one daily, one more weekly to smaller cities)... I could see that. Could Spirit benefit from Allegiant's package deals... maybe. Could Spirit be the big city sister of Allegiant... maybe.


User currently offlinefpofllflyboi From Bahamas, joined Jun 2005, 234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11416 times:

To add to all of this, (for argument sake) what would become of the Orlando operations when you have MCO and SFB so close?

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11385 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations. I just don't see G4's operational model working with NK's operating model. G4 flies their routes on a less than daily frequency while NK's routes are for the most part daily (although some operate once a day). I don't see how they could mesh those two concepts together and it be profitable.
Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations. I just don't see G4's operational model working with NK's operating model. G4 flies their routes on a less than daily frequency while NK's routes are for the most part daily (although some operate once a day). I don't see how they could mesh those two concepts together and it be profitable.
Quoting EricR (Reply 9):

I concur with Srbmod and EricR. I just do not forsee the two of these companies merging as they have different operating philosophies. G4 for one does not utilize their a/c like NK utilizes there. G4 does not serve any international destinations with the exception of Hawaii. NK serves 28 Intl destinations and G4 serves none. The only gain I see NK getting out merging with G4 is their charter contracts and serving Hawaii.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11368 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 9):
generally serves smaller communities that simply cannot support daily service among many other differences

Actually, NK serves many cities on a non-daily basis. I do, however, know how you're getting at with this statement.

Quoting fpofllflyboi (Reply 12):

To add to all of this, (for argument sake) what would become of the Orlando operations when you have MCO and SFB so close?


If NK and G4 were to merge, SFB would probably go. NK has a sizable presence at MCO and is a much wider-known name in Orlando. Granted, they're no WN, and many people just say that they fly them to get there cheap, they're still known.


User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4289 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11353 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations. I just don't see G4's operational model working with NK's operating model. G4 flies their routes on a less than daily frequency while NK's routes are for the most part daily (although some operate once a day). I don't see how they could mesh those two concepts together and it be profitable.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Could the models help each other (one daily, one more weekly to smaller cities)... I could see that. Could Spirit benefit from Allegiant's package deals... maybe. Could Spirit be the big city sister of Allegiant... maybe.

Fair points, but it wouldn't exactly be the first time two airlines with slightly different business models have combined would it? OK, so Allegiant likes to fly only once or twice weekly and Spirit prefers daily routes but surely they could figure out a merger plan with a happy medium, right? From the casual observer, Allegiant and Spirit seem to target the same sort of customer although I know that might not be completely accurate. I have no insight into whether such a merger announcement is imminent but I think it would make more sense than some of the other merger rumors floating around a.net!



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11324 times:

Quoting richierich (Reply 15):
OK, so Allegiant likes to fly only once or twice weekly and Spirit prefers daily routes but surely they could figure out a merger plan with a happy medium, right? From the casual observer, Allegiant and Spirit seem to target the same sort of customer although I know that might not be completely accurate

I bet NK could find a way to make thise daily routes. Afterall, they fly TWICE daily a319s from ACY-MYR!


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11205 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
They will be matched pretty closely in a mess like DEN.

Are you sure? I can't seem to find the abundant $55 fares to vegas on WN or UA.


I couldn't imagine G4 and NK hooking up. G4 doesn't even like to call themselves an airline and would probably never be seen running things like DFW-ORD, LGA-DTW.. etc.

That said, anyone at NK would probably vomit if they looked at G4's fleet utilization.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 16):
I bet NK could find a way to make thise daily routes. Afterall, they fly TWICE daily a319s from ACY-MYR!

No way. Look over G4's route network and most of the cities on there. G4's fares don't leave any room for much fare stimulation either.

Quoting richierich (Reply 15):
From the casual observer, Allegiant and Spirit seem to target the same sort of customer although I know that might not be completely accurate.

Allegiant wants vacationers and to sell vacation packages. That's a critical part of a route working for them. Spirit also likes the vacationer, but is after any leisure or VFR traffic. They sell packages too, but don't depend on them to make a route work.

Quoting richierich (Reply 15):
OK, so Allegiant likes to fly only once or twice weekly and Spirit prefers daily routes but surely they could figure out a merger plan with a happy medium, right?

Allegiant flies a range of routes from weekly to 2 or 3x daily, depending on the market. The vast majority of their network seems to settle in at 2-4x per week. Spirit's oldest routes and newest routes are all daily, many with multiple frequencies. Much of the island and south american flying, in addition to the smaller city flying in the east is less than daily.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11167 times:

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 1):
I would say a more likely candidate would be Spirit and Frontier.
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
Nobody wants to be in DEN's 3 carrier mess
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
They will be matched pretty closely in a mess like DEN.
Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 10):
Certainly more plausible, and F9 is being gussied up for a spin-off. A combo of F9 and NK would certainly bump them up into the B6 level of network coverage.

For the sake of playing along with this hypothetical here, if somehow NK were to become the new owners/operators of F9, for heaven sakes, I certainly hope that they would not change the F9 name. NK would best approach this the same as AF/KL, where corporate is the same and synergies can be determined there, but there remains two separate companies, at least in the minds of the public. At least in DEN, if all were to remain the same, and F9 were suddenly to become NK, I just don't see the loyalty following. And for all of those thinking of the perceived confusion or difficulties of two names, just look at what recently happened at MKE. I think F9 would have been a lot better keeping the Midwest name there, they might have stood a chance. So if AF/KL can do it, along with a number of others in different lines of business, then this is a prime example of when to do it.

As for the three way mess in DEN, hey..... it's pesky F9 that is the heart, soul and grand kahuna of why the three way mess is what it is in DEN. DEN is F9's cash cow, and F9 is considered the DEN hometown airline. F9 will be doing just fine as it focuses on DEN, and as such, the DEN flying public is responding well.

And as for NK and G4, well..... same thing. Keep two companies, and let a common corporate deal with whatever synergies that may be out there.

So, that's my    on the hypothetical.

 


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11166 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 16):

I bet NK could find a way to make thise daily routes. Afterall, they fly TWICE daily a319s from ACY-MYR!

That's in the summer. Only 1x in the winter but still daily unlike G4 who flies ABE-MYR less than daily.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9692 times:

No reason for a merger. Both airlines are successful as stand alone. No synergies to be gained on either the revenue or cost side.

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5703 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8832 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations.

Actually, that's exactly what I could visualize. I've thought about this before and I could see the benefit of having the two carriers under one roof. For one thing, they are both essentially ULCC's and with G4 apparently turning to Airbus for their future fleet needs there can be ways to work together to save money.

I've also thought that the Spirit side could be the side taking delivery of the new-builds, including the NEO's down the road, and as those arrive the older frames could transition over to G4 where their "poorer" economics and greater maintenance costs would be less noticable. In fact, with reduced flying, G4 might be able to get more out of the frames (calendar wise) before heavy checks than Spirit.

They could share costs/employees at common stations, reducing costs. Cities where G4 only operates once or twice a week would make a lot more sense if there was already a station manager/ground staff present. Conversely, Spirit might find some cities more of an option if they know that the costs could be partially shared with G4.

I don't know how the vacation booking side of things works, but clearly that's G4's bread and butter. Why not spread that capability to the Spirit side even more, leveraging their existing customer base and past customer datebase to get more out of that side of the business?

In regards to the hub and spoke versus point to point, I guess they'd have to decide if there could be some sort of guaranteed connection time between the two carriers in places like LAS, FLL, etc. where a passenger could book, say, G4 BLI-LAS then NK LAS-DFW, all on one itinerary (ticket?), but have to recheck their bags in the connecting city. If it saves them some money, they might be willing to do this.

Finally, Allegiant could easily spread to other international destinations (I believe) by painting some Spirit A320's in Allegiant colors and slapping an "Operated by Spirit Airlines" sticker on the door. For example, if I'm a customer in Bellingham (I mean, Vancouver) and I want to go to Puerto Vallarta, G$ could sell and market the flight as Allegiant to Puerto Vallarta but have it operated by a Spirit aircraft and crew painted for G4 (or even not, I guess). That "Allegiant" A320 could fly to a number of destinations, both domestic and international, all flown by Spirit crews but marketed as Allegiant. I suppose if there was a need to balance things out, for every flight Spirit flies for Allegiant, an older (ex-NK) A320 painted for Spirit but operated by Allegiant could nandle some ex-LAS flights for Spirit.

Who knows what more there is, or if any of this is even worhy of a corporate tie-up, but it certainly doesn't strike me as farfetched as one might think.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8733 times:

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 6):
The three way "mess" as you put it would be fine for Spirit. No one is going to undercut them on price. Great O&D market, decent tourism, and a nice hub point in the middle of the country?

But Spirit's already trying to carve out a niche at DEN on their own. They don't need the excess baggage Frontier would bring to the table.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I'm scratching my head on this one. About the only sort of merger I could see would be for NK and G4 to be owned by the same holding company yet maintain separate operations. I just don't see G4's operational model working with NK's operating model. G4 flies their routes on a less than daily frequency while NK's routes are for the most part daily (although some operate once a day). I don't see how they could mesh those two concepts together and it be profitable.

Actually, the addition of markets such as Charleston (WV), Latrobe, Niagara Falls, and Plattsburgh was inspired by Allegiant's success in linking smaller cities to major vacation destinations. Furthermore, the majority of Spirit's international destinations see less than daily service. It's only the busier domestic city pairs that see multiple frequencies a day.

Considering that Spirit has been aggressively marketing its Spirit Vacations brand as of late, I would wager that, if there's any truth to this rumor, Allegiant's airline operations would be rolled into Spirit's, but they would keep the established Allegiant brand to sell travel packages.

A two-tier airline would be a labor nightmare waiting to happen.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

this is an interesting merger to ponder. Remember, towards the end before the WN buyout, AirTran was trying to be a network carrier and borrowing from the G4 page in doing some point to point. The plus side about that was, take Bloomington Illinois, for example, a passenger could fly non stop to Orlando on one of the days they operated the flight. If they didnt want to stay long enough to take the non stop flight back home, there was always the connection option via the ATL hub. Perhaps a Spirit/G4 linkup could do something along those lines. I could see hubs in AZA, LAS, DFW, ORD, FLL for sure. The debate would be airports like PIE and SFB...would they keep those hubs, or move them to the main airports (TPA for PIE, MCO for SFB)? If by chance this did happen I would hope the Allegiant brand and livery would be kept. I think an A320 would look pretty sharp in that livery! The airline could take the place of AirTran in serving the smaller/mid sized cities that WN ignores.

User currently offlinejeb94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

I don't see it happening. I think G4 is more interested in finding a replacement for the Mad Dogs. Merging with someone isn't necessarily out of the question but it would be more of buying someone out to gain the aircraft and try to reduce service at large airports to encourage more traffic out of smaller airports.

25 RWA380 : Well put, NK is a modern carrier, at least fleet wise, especially compared to G4, the two operate very differently. F9 and NK would be a better match
26 B727FA : This "three way mess" assumes they want to keep DEN as a "hub" (though who know's what that even really means anymore.)
27 strfyr51 : I would have Certainly thought so and I Said so years ago that were Anyone to merge with Frontier and were they to have a Hub in the East? The merger
28 airfrnt : You mean excess baggage like gates (in a city they are trying to expand in), planes (that match their own), brand-awareness, advertising contracts an
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