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Airbus Announces A320 Factory In Alabama  
User currently offlinemoderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 23725 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Since the bulk of the other thread was regarding the rumors and speculation about Airbus building a plant in Mobile, it has been decided to have a dedicated thread to the announcement so to separate the speculative posts now that this is official.


Airbus To Build Planes In Alabama, Challenging Boeing

Quote:
Airbus SAS plans to assemble single- aisle aircraft in the U.S. for the first time, encroaching on Boeing Co. (BA)’s home market to tap demand from North American airlines seeking to renew their fleets.

Airbus has chosen Mobile, Alabama, as the site to build A320 single-aisle aircraft that compete with Boeing’s 737, the Toulouse, France-based company said today. Construction will begin by the middle of next year, with deliveries starting in 2016 and output of 40 to 50 planes annually by 2018.

One last thing:

Please keep your comments civil and within the boundaries of the Forum Rules.


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
169 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKMOB1 From United States of America, joined May 2012, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 23593 times:

I've been a member here just over a month , my first post here .... Dont know a hell of a lot about planes compared to a lot of you , I love them and love to photograph them , although I am use to not being able to capture more than an Embraer 145, or MD88 .... If I'm lucky I can grab a FED EX Boeing or DC10 coming out of KBFM , where the Airbus plant will be .
As an airliner enthusiast living in Mobile , I was so pumped to hear the news last week , and to see it come to fruitition today . I look forward to the day I can see these baby's soaring out of KBFM  


User currently offlinexjet From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 23532 times:

I'm an Alabama native, and I am very happy for my home state. The state's manufacturing sector is growing with good paying jobs. The south is very business friendly, and it is paying dividends. Glad to see commercial aerospace make it's mark on the southern tip of the state. I hope it will be a fruitful as it has been in Huntsville/Decatur.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30569 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 23503 times:
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As I noted in the other thread, I find this a prudent move by Airbus.

User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 23317 times:

Interesting development, but I don't see why the Bloomberg article must cite this as a "challenge" to Boeing. Is it really? No. Airlines order what they need, I have a hard time believing where an aircraft was assembled plays a nominal role in choosing aircraft.


Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 23184 times:

Nice surprise news

Alabama...
Little shock

40-50 aircraft/year...
Fantastic

Congratulations, Airbus & Alabama



Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 22917 times:

Alabama's a "right to work" state - no union representation. I wonder how the wages for the Alabama employees of Airbus will compare to their European colleagues.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently onlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 22873 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 4):
Interesting development, but I don't see why the Bloomberg article must cite this as a "challenge" to Boeing.


That seems to be the way Boeing thinks about it. Boeing made comments already last week before it was official announced. Apparently they feel very threatened. Just keep making better planes and the airlines will buy them.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 22812 times:

Quoting KMOB1 (Reply 1):
As an airliner enthusiast living in Mobile , I was so pumped to hear the news last week , and to see it come to fruitition today . I look forward to the day I can see these baby's soaring out of KBFM

You have every right to be happy! (welcome to A.net!) the more you hang around the plant, the more you'll learn   

Anyway:

When it comes to Boeing, do you think that

Quoting moderators (Thread starter):
Airbus SAS plans to assemble single- aisle aircraft in the U.S. for the first time, encroaching on Boeing Co. (BA)’s home market to tap demand from North American airlines seeking to renew their fleets.

Honestly, how is this a challenge? I highly doubt the current status quo won't change. UA will have the A350 sure, but they still have a lot of Boeing aircraft. DL isn't going to buy anymore either. They're still primary Boeing customers, and I think that Airbus is just saying that it's "challenging" Boeing, when in my honest opinion, it's just for convenience with US Airways and American Airline's orders.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 22746 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 6):
Alabama's a "right to work" state - no union representation. I wonder how the wages for the Alabama employees of Airbus will compare to their European colleagues.

I looked up that term on wikipedia, and it seems to me it doesn't mean no union, but no mandatory union. Which is exactly the same situation as in France.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30569 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22701 times:
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Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 6):
Alabama's a "right to work" state - no union representation. I wonder how the wages for the Alabama employees of Airbus will compare to their European colleagues.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
I looked up that term on wikipedia, and it seems to me it doesn't mean no union, but no mandatory union. Which is exactly the same situation as in France.

That is correct.

Some folks might be surprised that when Boeing bought the Charleston plant, the workforce there was part of the IAM, just like the workers in Everett and Renton. The workforce subsequently chose to decertify the union, but Boeing can't work them like serfs lest the IAM successfully re-unionize the shop.


User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22678 times:

I think the challenge to Boeing is that Airbus now have the advantage of multiple facilities worldwide. Which includes...
1. Airbus would be able to achieve equal or lower labor costs for its US facility
2. Better delivery slots paving way for more sales
3. Ease of purchase - from finance, tax to paperwork - for US based carriers, in Boeing's own home turf
4. Better sales presence in US and Canada
5. Inability on Boeing's front to develop an EU plant, due to its own unattractiveness

Overall, it takes away Boeing's 'home advantage'. It is one of those small steps that can have a big impact. It may be just an A320 line for the moment, but don't expect it to be another Tianjin line.



The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5489 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22673 times:

Just because Alabama is a Right to Work state does not mean that Airbus' plant will be and remain non-union. It simply means that no workers can be compelled to join a union.

It remains incumbent upon Airbus to earn the degree of loyalty from its employees that is required for the employees to reject union representation. One hopes they will be wise enough to do just that - often said (and I agree) that an employer gets the union it deserves.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinejayhup From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22650 times:

As a former employee of a Boeing subsidiary I think this is great news for Alabama and for Airbus. It will keep the competition hot and heavy between the two companies and should benefit the airlines and us passengers.

Interesting however is the lack of "protest" from the White House over Airbus coming to a right to work state. Seems that they weren't so accommodating to Boeing when they first tried to open up in South Carolina.


User currently offlineThereandBack From Turkey, joined Aug 2005, 699 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22583 times:

My only concern is how well the new facility will handle hurricanes and tornadoes in the area. If I were Airbus and selecting a site to build aircraft I would have went for an area less natural hazard prone.

User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 906 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22537 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 11):
. Ease of purchase - from finance, tax to paperwork - for US based carriers, in Boeing's own home turf

Financing, financing, financing. That is what it takes to close the deal. Given that the European banks are in shaky ground along with the ECB, why not start another production in the US of A and tap the EXIM as it was mentioned in the previous thread?

This move will tap more financial resources away from Boeing (.......to close deals).



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22494 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 15):
Financing, financing, financing. That is what it takes to close the deal. Given that the European banks are in shaky ground along with the ECB, why not start another production in the US of A and tap the EXIM as it was mentioned in the previous thread?

Does the financing and incentives provided pass the WTO test based on the last rulings that are being appealed and does / could it have any effect?
How about the EXIM directive of both OEM's not competing on each others home turf, does this plant offer Airbus a route to circumvent?

Quoting jayhup (Reply 13):
It will keep the competition hot and heavy between the two companies and should benefit the airlines and us passengers.

Try to imagine the duopoly in 20 years time, there are some scarey visions as well as good ones.

Quoting jayhup (Reply 13):
Interesting however is the lack of "protest" from the White House over Airbus coming to a right to work state. Seems that they weren't so accommodating to Boeing when they first tried to open up in South Carolina.

If they were not forewarned they are probably looking at GM, Ford and Chrysler and imagining the day when Boeing is no longer the aviation leader in the USA.


User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3065 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22457 times:

Quoting ThereandBack (Reply 14):
My only concern is how well the new facility will handle hurricanes and tornadoes in the area. If I were Airbus and selecting a site to build aircraft I would have went for an area less natural hazard prone.

Hurricanes aren't actually all that common in Mobile, with some years being notable exceptions- http://www2.wkrg.com/weather/2011/au...iles-hurricane-history-ar-2217159/



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 906 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22449 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
Does the financing and incentives provided pass the WTO test based on the last rulings that are being appealed and does / could it have any effect?
How about the EXIM directive of both OEM's not competing on each others home turf, does this plant offer Airbus a route to circumvent?

I don't know intimately these rulings, but my sense is that airlines need financing and a guarantee to the lending commercial bank by the government where the product is manufactured for export must be a big reason why Airbus is setting up this plant. It is a common worldwide problem that banking thus financing is under strain. Airbus is just spreading its wings so that it can increase such access.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22371 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
but Boeing can't work them like serfs lest the IAM successfully re-unionize the shop.

That's really an old out-dated argument that the threat of unionization somehow motivates companies to treat their employees better. While companies will take measures and actions to persuade employees away from unionization for obvious reasons, even if the threat of unionization didn't exist, companies wouldn't suddenly start treating their employees like "serfs" for a number of reasons: 1) Codified federal law would prohibit such treatment 2) It's the 21st century and corporate management is better developed than the days of yore, it's a generally accepted law of business management now that having a happy, motivated workforce with a strong sense of internal and external equity results in a more productive workforce and a healthier bottom-line.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 6):
Alabama's a "right to work" state - no union representation. I wonder how the wages for the Alabama employees of Airbus will compare to their European colleagues.

I looked up that term on wikipedia, and it seems to me it doesn't mean no union, but no mandatory union. Which is exactly the same situation as in France.

Being "Right to Work" is definitely an advantage, but the greater advantage for an Airbus factory in Alabama will be the lower overall cost of labor. Employee compensation will be lower because the cost-of-living is lower, not as many government-mandated benefits, labor flexibility ("employment at will" philosophy here in the US would permit Airbus to fire or lay-off less productive employees more easily while hiring or retaining better skilled or better productive ones), and higher worker productivity because of the longer work week in the US.


This is a win-win for both Airbus and Alabama, congrats to them both!


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5617 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22358 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 6):
Alabama's a "right to work" state - no union representation. I wonder how the wages for the Alabama employees of Airbus will compare to their European colleagues.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
I looked up that term on wikipedia, and it seems to me it doesn't mean no union, but no mandatory union. Which is exactly the same situation as in France.

That is correct.

Some folks might be surprised that when Boeing bought the Charleston plant, the workforce there was part of the IAM, just like the workers in Everett and Renton. The workforce subsequently chose to decertify the union, but Boeing can't work them like serfs lest the IAM successfully re-unionize the shop.
Quoting sccutler (Reply 12):
Just because Alabama is a Right to Work state does not mean that Airbus' plant will be and remain non-union. It simply means that no workers can be compelled to join a union.

I too was puzzled by this term "right to work". From the above, does that mean in "non right to work" states one can be MADE to join a union to get/keep a job?

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22281 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 18):
It is a common worldwide problem that banking thus financing is under strain.

In setting up the Exim Bank and its Europe counterpart both sides agreed not to finance a/c from carriers from each others turf, hence DL throwing a hissy fit about competition on routes from Middle East carriers who used EXIM financing to purchase new a/c. DL and other US carriers had no problem when the bank was set up, probably too busy looking near term and not down the road, now the horse has left the barn, they have since moved on to oil refinaries.

The WTO issues I guess may be date limited, but some rulings did render anti-competive some actions / incentives by states.
Interesting times.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22281 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 20):
I too was puzzled by this term "right to work". From the above, does that mean in "non right to work" states one can be MADE to join a union to get/keep a job?

It's a type of legislation that a number of state governments have passed. Essentially in states that don't have this legislation, if 60% of employees vote in a union, it means 100% of the employees have to join the union basically forcing the 40% that voted against the union join one against their will. However, in states with "Right-to-work" legislation, basically only those employees that want to join the union can join the union and those that don't aren't forced to join one...hope that helps, it's of course a bit more nuanced but I think I explained the gist of it.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30569 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22186 times:
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Quoting gemuser (Reply 20):
I too was puzzled by this term "right to work". From the above, does that mean in "non right to work" states one can be MADE to join a union to get/keep a job?


National Labor Relations Act and the Taft–Hartley Act make it illegal for a union to require employees be union members to work (a "closed shop" or "union shop"). So you are not required to join the union, but you are required to pay union dues.

When I was in high school, I did a summer working in retail for a drug store chain and a portion of my paycheck went to cover the dues of being a member of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union whether or not I actually chose to become a member of the union.

[Edited 2012-07-02 20:30:09]

User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2468 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 22147 times:

Quoting jayhup (Reply 13):
Interesting however is the lack of "protest" from the White House over Airbus coming to a right to work state. Seems that they weren't so accommodating to Boeing when they first tried to open up in South Carolina.

Interesting observation and a seeming double standard from the Administration. But it should be a win-win for all concerned as Airbus gets a lower labor cost U.S. manufacturing base, Alabama gets some much needed jobs and Boeing really loses nothing of consequence, at least in the short term. Well, maybe the Administration loses a bit on credibility.


25 Stitch : I do not believe the National Labor Relations Board can just target an employer on their own volition. The International Association of Machinists bro
26 kanban : From the pictures I've seen this is strictly a Final Assembly operations, so everything will have to be flown in (Fuselage, wings, empennage, etc) . S
27 Asiaflyer : Well, we see Boeing flying in 787 fuselages with the special built 747, so its not a new strategy. As a fair bit of supplies also comes from North Am
28 Jerseyguy : Stitch: required to pay the dues but not required to join. As far as I'm concerned it's really like being forced to join. Why would you pay the dues a
29 moo : It will be shipped in, they are using China as the blueprint for this FAL.
30 Post contains images astuteman : About the same as the 787 was originally meant to be, perhaps...... Rgds
31 flyingAY : Just out of interest, does anyone have a nice picture or a description where the A320 parts do come from? I'd assume some of the parts are anyway manu
32 Aesma : Cost of living is lower than what ? As I said in the other thread, it's not a comparison between Alabama and another US state. With the Eurodollar al
33 DrColenzo : That's the interesting part from an economics/business school perspective. If there was a pure low wages vs. high wages argument, then Airbus and Boe
34 Post contains images flyingturtle : Newspapers here reported that opening an Airbus plant in Boeing's backyard is a prequel to a A-B merger.
35 Post contains links r2rho : Airbus will gain huge flexibility by being able to spread currency risk, balance delivery rates between several sites, have a presence on three conti
36 Burkhard : This 40-50 per year is far aways from the speculated 20 per months, but it will help Airbus to have more free slots for the NEO once it is in in produ
37 InsideMan : The Tianjin FAL was started with the objective of 4/month max capacity and is supposed to delivery exclusively to chinese customers. Since it is an ex
38 EPA001 : I too think that this FAL will start with conservative numbers, but in a couple more years it will be ready to have the production increased to the l
39 ebj1248650 : Might it be that the White House is gratified to see a company from another country create jobs here while so many American companies are moving thei
40 par13del : Most employers give all workers the same benefits whether union or not, much simpler than having multiple sets of benefits, hence the mantra of the l
41 caljn : ...or more precisely, "right to work for less"
42 brilondon : What has this got to do with the A320 factory in Alabama, I think you have posted to the wrong thread.
43 Post contains images InsideMan : in Europe, you can't force somebody to join a union, nor to pay the union dues. However, the employer has to treat all employees the same, union or no
44 par13del : Poster was questioning how Airbus encroaching on Boeing home turf by opening a FAL in Alabama posed a challenge. Seems appropriate and in the right t
45 thenoflyzone : It will most likely be shipped in. That is the major reason for choosing Mobile, Alabama, in my opinion. The airport is right on the coast, which mea
46 flyglobal : I expect the following development. Mobiles first 4 Planes/ months are for sure subject for increase if the assembly plant is constructed to be modula
47 Post contains links scbriml : The thing is, there's a far bigger game in play than just building a handful of A320s every month. You only have to look at Boeing's comments on the
48 LostSound : Smart move by Airbus. Telling your current customers that you will build their planes in their home country sounds like good customer service to me. I
49 trex8 : I seriously doubt any major airline cares where the plane is built as long as it performs as promised and they get the support they need. If airlines
50 Flighty : Great stuff. I love how people in the union North spout off jealously, trying to disparage the South's growing expertise and financial success in manu
51 Post contains images Stitch : Airbus flies / ships / trucks everything into the A320 FALs at TLS, XFW and TJN so MOB is just following the same process. The Mobile plant will be o
52 Post contains links rheinwaldner : Don't be too lulled in false security. Of course this is great for the U.S. and Mobile, but it will also be great for Airbus. Some more infos you can
53 LMP737 : I bet you the folks who run STA Mobile are going to start sweeting bullets when Airbus starts hiring people. It's a no brainer on who you would want t
54 TVNWZ : It may also help get Alabama less dependent on the federal dole since the state gets about $2.70 worth of federal help for every tax dollar paid, one
55 odwyerpw : 200 extra highly efficient Airbus A320neos produced before 2018 in the US. Can you imagine the lost sales opportunities if Boeing simply stayed the co
56 Asiaflyer : Encroaching on Boeings home turf? You don't consider the world an open market place?
57 strfyr51 : was it REALY the administration OR Was it the I.A.M. and Robert Buffenbarger ?? I think you might have read too much into that. Airbus will be a plus
58 Post contains links skinnerde : just found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwUP-yfQGjs and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge4Rcn_lZ1c
59 kanban : Thanks for the link my original thought was they would need more planes... however as you point out by surface ship that isn't a constraint.
60 flyguy89 : The cost of living is lower in Alabama than in France, from real estate to the tax burden to fuel costs to food costs. Yes it's the same in the US bu
61 Post contains links diverdave : Actually, Alabama does have the highest rate of unionized employees in the southeastern U.S., though in absolute terms it is still rather low: http:/
62 LostSound : Misunderstood my post. No, the Mobile plant will not attract many sales because it is simply placed in the US. However, current and future US airline
63 Flighty : Absolutely, people's right to join a union is not encumbered in any way AFAIK in Alabama. They can even go on strike. No law against it. It just isn'
64 par13del : I'll let this one go as we are heading off on a tangent from the posters original post.
65 GentFromAlaska : Apparently Mobile was selected at least in part because of its deep water port. I guess Airbus plans on using waterways transportation both domestic a
66 Post contains images glideslope : Another sign of high tech manufacturing starting to come back to the US. It's no threat to Boeing. Good paying jobs building aircraft consisting of ma
67 MD-90 : Correct, but the big difference between Alabama and France is the tradition of union membership--in the private sector it's much weaker here in Alaba
68 Post contains images BoeEngr : I think it's great for Alabama and for Airbus. Alabama is a beautiful place and, in my opinion, somewhat underrated. Though my Pacific Northwest self
69 InsideMan : why is everybody talking about France and the French unions? Germany has a lot more to lose, as it is already the biggest manufacturer of the A320 fa
70 Stitch : Do you happen to have a link to that? I know Power 8 capped TLS production at 14 a month and gave XFW a third A320 FAL (that went live in 2011) in ex
71 Mcoov : How many people think this may also allow Airbus to sell A320s to the U.S. Air Force?
72 Stitch : I imagine Airbus is allowed to sell A320s built in TLS or XFW to the USAF.
73 Asiaflyer : German production is generally more competitive than the French in the global market place, but Im not sure how Airbus own plants compare to each oth
74 MD-90 : Why would the USAF want A320s?
75 rampart : I haven't seen it asked, has or will Boeing consider setting up their own manufacturing (rather than contractors') facility in China, or Europe, or La
76 rotating14 : What I find confusing is Airbus slamming the brakes on increasing the flow of A320 in Toulouse but now opening the Mobile line.
77 Post contains images EPA001 : In TLS and XFW there is not much room to significantly increase the production. So as well as a strategic move, this expansion in production capacity
78 DrColenzo : Very true and the unions in Germany are very, very strong. This move will strike right at the heart of their influence at Airbus, good thing too in m
79 par13del : At a time when the EU is looking at Germany to underwrite a lot of the financial burden presently being experienced in the EU? A good question and I
80 MillwallSean : It wont. the unions are not against new plants outside Europe. they are happy with that if it benefits the company. And with so many employee represe
81 DrColenzo : Well, I think it will, particularly in the current economic climate. Germany manufacturing unions have kept wage increases at an artificial low for th
82 Post contains images EPA001 : I think all this union talk is way off-topic. But to clarify some things: No, they have not. And that is a good thing imho. Not true. See the large pl
83 bjorn14 : It's cheaper for Haier to build appliances in China and ship them to the USA than to build them in So. Car. It's all about labor costs. I know when E
84 imiakhtar : I suggest you read up on the amount of RLI the UK exchequer pumps into Airbus and GKN. Broughton and Filton are not going anywhere. Besides, there ju
85 Post contains images DrColenzo : I couldn't be less of a professor in the economics of manufacturing, either. The model built up disequilibrium in the 1980s that led to a lost decade
86 r2rho : Well, because many - not just on a.net, but particularly in Washington - still see Airbus as a "French" company. That is surely another thing that Ai
87 imiakhtar : And yet many have argued, including current and former Boeing employees, that it was this very model of out-sourcing whilst holding on to all the ris
88 sweair : Outsourcing as the holy grail is getting a bit tarnished lately. I can recall many IT projects that failed in India, different cultures, different peo
89 dazeflight : The Porsche Boxster is still being built in Finland. Years before the VW merger, Porsche decided to add a new model to its line - the Cayenne. A new
90 KDAYflyer : According to an article I read this week in the WSJ, the difference is 30%. That's pretty substantial if correct. It's also a good hedge against a un
91 Stitch : TLS was capped at 14 per month in exchange for being given the work to outfit the A350. A third assembly station was added at XFW, increasing product
92 DrColenzo : How very (and unpleasantly) nationalistic and incorrect I research on this subject, in German (well my version of it which I inherited from my mother
93 DrColenzo : Wouldn't that lead to cost increases? Even with the snafus with the 787, a huge quantity of outsourcing still goes on. Indeed, look at Embraer and th
94 sweair : Some have said it would be easier to lay off workers in Alabama than in France, sure that might be true, but it would also cause bad blood within Amer
95 Post contains images astuteman : From my seat, Airbus have practiced a distributed assembly process with only really final assembly in toulouse (and later finkenwerder) from the outs
96 Post contains images aloges : It does make you wonder, doesn't it, particularly since the A300 was the genesis of the twin-engined widebody?
97 par13del : So if some vendors are inept that means that the system is flawed or not viable???? what about the vendors who met their targets?
98 trex8 : It means B should have done more homework on who they signed up and done more supervision initially. Airbus took the 70s and 80s to figure it all out
99 Post contains images DrColenzo : Have you even read some of the literature on the early years of Airbus? Or, for that matter had a look at the production figures versus the deliverie
100 XT6Wagon : And that ignores that the A300-600 was a different plane than the other A300's using a new fuselage design developed on the A310 project. Quite an am
101 Post contains images aloges : Ah... I hadn't realised we were at the level of hissyfits. Sorry.
102 Post contains images par13del :
103 Post contains images astuteman : Just so I've got this straight. Selling 880 copies (it is surely as reasonable to include the A310 in this as it it is to lump the 767-200, -300 and
104 Post contains images astuteman : And a 21st century 767-400 is a carbon copy of a 1980's 767-200? Don't make me laugh
105 Post contains links HELyes : Actually Porsche left Finland 2011 after 14 years and some 230,000 Boxsters and Caymans, Finnish press wrote the production was moved to Austria. htt
106 Post contains images DrColenzo : The truth, I love it. Dunno, what about profits and such like? We, the UK taxpayer and those residing within our European partners countries in Airbu
107 Post contains images astuteman : And my God have we reaped the benefits since then...... Looked at from a long-term perspective.... unquestionably
108 Post contains images EPA001 : Since you are new here you must have missed the numerous threads on RLI. You would have known then that RLI is no subsidy. And certainly not in the w
109 Post contains links aloges : Before you get too smug with yourself, you might want to reconsider another statement of yours: There is no such thing as a Porsche factory on the Wa
110 XT6Wagon : Just as much sense as it does to include the 737,727, and 757 in the sales of the 707. The A310 has a new wing and fuselage so to call it the same as
111 DrColenzo : Can you do the maths on that EPA001? Come on, back that assertion up with data: take the total sales revenue of Airbus since inception and subtract co
112 Post contains images EPA001 : Can you do so? Since as you say the data is out there, you no doubt also know that Boeing enjoyed a much bigger financial benefit in real subsidies (
113 aloges : You may call it penis envy, others refer to it as a project to reduce the dependence on American manufacturers. The adult world is commonly taken wit
114 kanban : So what does the component map look like... Fuselages built in Germany, wings in Wales, empennage.. ? So the bulk of the man-hours are still European.
115 sweair : Airbus was very dependent on government funding for a long time, it would not have made it without that support. Hopefully with time it will get less
116 Post contains images astuteman : New wing? Revised maybe. New fuselage? shrink maybe. I'll refer to my previous question. It's strange to suggest that the 767 hasn't been equally mod
117 747400sp : Well, this is a good ideal to bring jobs to Alabama, and Airbus already had plans, to build the plant to produce the KC-45, if they won the contract.
118 astuteman : Almost 787-esque in its scale, isn't it? Shipping by sea is considerably cheaper than shipping by air, as happens to the 787's assemblies.. Rgds
119 InsideMan : sorry, no link. but the deal was France gets the A350 and in return TLS is capped at 14/month of the current A320 family AND exclusive rights to Hamb
120 Post contains images par13del : So this FAL Alamaba ensures that the USA will be less dependent on Boeing. This is rapidly going nowhere good
121 par13del : Alabama, apologies.
122 kanban : This was not a criticism.. the point was most of the work stays in Europe and very little comes here. One report said the sections would be stuffed (
123 FLALEFTY : Everyone seems to be a bit grouchy about Airbus opening a plant in Mobile. Please chill! This will be good for Mobile and even better for Airbus. Thro
124 InsideMan : the only ones grouchy about this move are Boeing fanboys that fear a (further) deterioration of the market share
125 rheinwaldner : And Embraer copied it from Airbus. IIRC the A310 had a new wing. It had an unbelievable small wing area, and it is reported that Boeing could not bel
126 sweair : When the day come that fuel is very expensive, how will this sort of shipping parts twice before assembly across an ocean be viewed? I know a lot of s
127 EPA001 : Well since Airbus is the largest international customer for US aviation industry suppliers (last year they purchased for more than $ 12 Billion from
128 Post contains images DrColenzo : Yep, very true and I was as grouchy as anyone else and therefore propose a solution to the argument above 1) The dispute being Argentina and the UK o
129 par13del : The USA is loosing its industrial capacity and turning more to service related country, Airbus is outsourcing the assembly but the making of the bulk
130 scbriml : There's little doubt that Boeing will outsell and out-deliver Airbus this year.
131 Post contains images imiakhtar : There is nothing wrong with outsourcing per say. The issue I have is that when done, going by past examples, the subcontractors are NOT RISK SHARING P
132 AirlineCritic : I'm not making a comment on seafood, but for aircraft... we need to look at these things with some perspective. The airplane, when ready, will probab
133 trex8 : MHI got the wing box as they were already producing what was then, when the 787 program started, the largest single piece composite wing box for the
134 kanban : It matters little how much is purchased from US companies, it matters where it is installed. If the units are coming stuffed, the components must be
135 Post contains images EPA001 : Understood. I did not take your remarks/questions as criticism though. And I agree with you, and have written so too, there is no single best way for
136 SQ22 : I know my question is off-topic, but do you know more details about this or can you provide me with a link to have a look at? Thank you.
137 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : It appears Mobile may in fact have the diverse and viable workforce which Airbus may have been shopping for. As it relates to one aspect of building,
138 r2rho : That is probably what will happen initially. US suppliers will deliver parts to the European pre-FALs, where the sections will be equipped, then ship
139 Post contains links rheinwaldner : Here are some links: Airbus talks of crossing Atlantic: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%201894.html Boeing and Airbus: agre
140 Post contains links LMP737 : PEMCO's facility in Dothan, Alabama is closing due to PEMCO filing Chapter 11. http://www2.dothaneagle.com/news/201...emco-filing-bankruptcy-ar-33548
141 bikerthai : Surface shipping is cheaper. However, as the complexity of the parts being shipped gets bigger, the cost of having a high priced item sitting on a sh
142 LJ : This will also do very good for MOB pax numbers the coming years. I reckon it will be very busy between Toulouse/Hamburg and MOB with engineers and ot
143 gigneil : The danger to Boeing is Airbus significantly reducing its exposure to the Euro and taking advantage of the United States's extremely low corporate tax
144 cmf : Unlike most peoples expectations corporate tax in US is high.
145 LJ : Tax will probably no issue as US companies already know that you can evade US tax very well using European based shell companies. Moreover tax rates
146 2175301 : Interesting development by Airbus - and I think a good example of a properly executed Rewards - Risk Analysis. Overall this should be a good benefit f
147 gemuser : IMHO, a Euro collapse is not a high probability, a real monetary union is a higher probability, but your point is valid, it COULD happen. Gemuser
148 Aesma : In France it's far lower than that, only 8% of workers are union members, the lowest of the OECD. Aside from that, I learned the other day that Toyot
149 InsideMan : that is low! By 70% workers I meant actual blue collar mechanics putting the pieces together. But it seems even in this peer group the number will be
150 gigneil : That's not really true compared to France and Germany, and certainly not in Alabama. NS
151 r2rho : Indeed, current air connections between the cities are quite bad, as neither TLS, HAM nor MOB are hubs or have TATL connections, so any flight necess
152 Post contains links cmf : "U.S. corporate tax rate: No. 1 in the world" http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/27/pf/taxes/corporate-taxes/index.htm You may be thinking of other taxes.
153 bikerthai : Both statement are true. Large US corporations like GE and Boeing have not paid Federal income taxes for years by various tax "incentives" and "deduc
154 Post contains links diverdave : The unions have weighed in: http://blog.al.com/live/2012/07/post_209.html#incart_river_default IAM says it will try to organize the plant, and commend
155 Aesma : Yes, the Chinese plant was supposed to make only a small number of planes, and only for the Chinese market for the first years. Note that the CFE-CGC
156 bikerthai : SPEEA is a "union" that represent . . . Engineering and other Technical staff. Boeing "Managers" represents the company and have their own associatio
157 Post contains links diverdave : I would have to agree with that, though I would add the benefits of the port and the available land/facilities at the former Brookley AFB. Airbus wou
158 goosebayguy : How many 320's will they be building per month worldwide?
159 nomadd22 : If Alabama used tax incentives to get the site, will Airbus file a WTO complaint against itself?
160 flood : As soon as Boeing files a complaint against itself for the incentives provided by SC, which were substantially greater and the same types of incentiv
161 art : Different situation in the car industry to me - US design was way behind foreign design IMO. I recall that 20 or so years ago US car manufacturers we
162 scouseflyer : The stated target recently was 42 a month from 2012 moving up to 50 a month in 2015 (?) not sure how this affects this. The work is split up as follo
163 trex8 : But no major corporation in the US actually pays anything near that rate unless your accountant is incompetent whereas the Siemans and Toyotas of the
164 par13del : So do those countries also have state and federal taxes, some might get the impression that if a company uses deductions to lower or even eliminate f
165 trex8 : The issue of "US pays highest corporate tax rate" pertains to federal taxes, not local. When GE can make 5 billion profit and pay zero federal corpor
166 ThrottleHold : You can in Ireland. When I worked there, there was a stipulation in my contract that I had to be a member of the union.
167 art : Shipping by sea is very fuel efficient, isn't it? It does not take that long to cross the Atlantic by ship, either. Seems a good move to me to start
168 bikerthai : My federal taxes (including SS and Medicare) runs about 20-25%. That is what I think they are saying about the "first quarter" paying Federal taxes.
169 ju068 : I just came across this information on Facebook, i found it quite entertaining... ''The city of Mobile has officially renamed the street in the Brookl
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