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A380 Production Thread Part 12  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 47676 times:
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Part 11 of this thread garnered a lot of replies. In some cases the thread takes longer for some users to load and we have therefore started part 12. Please feel free to contribute to the thread:

Part 11 can be found by following this link: A380 Production Thread Part 11

On behalf of the moderators, we hope you continue to enjoy the website.


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
257 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7577 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 47509 times:

So BA has it's tail now, when will it be completed?


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 46824 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
So BA has it's tail now, when will it be completed?

Complete in the form of a delivery should be about June next year if things goes as planned. However the aircarfts should roll out from FAL in TLS sometimes before Christmas


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2715 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 46729 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 2):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
So BA has it's tail now, when will it be completed?

Complete in the form of a delivery should be about June next year if things goes as planned. However the aircarfts should roll out from FAL in TLS sometimes before Christmas

The time between arrival of the convoy in TLS and roll-out from the FAL for two latest HoVs was 2.8 months for MSN 087 (TG #1) and 3.5 months for MSN 078 (MH #1). Since the conoy for BA #1 arrived in TLS end of June I think we should be able to see the green BA #1 in September or October, due to the holiday season most probably rather October than September.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2715 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 45919 times:

No delivery in July???

I was just wondering which airframe could be delivered next. The only candidates I see are:

MSN 101 - EK #22 - A6-EDV - 2012-03 - in TLS since 16-05-2012 (after cabin outfitting)
MSN 085 - SQ #18- 9V-SKS - 2012 - in TLS since 30-05-2012 (after cabin outfitting)
MSN 103 - EK #23 - A6-EDW - 2012-Q3 - in TLS since 14-06-2012 (after cabin outfitting)
MSN 081 - MH #2- 9M-MNB - 2012-Q3 - in TLS since 25-06-2012 (after cabin outfitting)
MSN 092 - SQ #19- 9V-SKT - 2012-Q3 - in XFW since 03-02-2012

However, the two EK-airframes will not be delivered before September 2012. This leaves only MSN 085 and MSN 081 as the only airframes that might be delivered in July 2012.

Any ideas?


User currently offlineFocker From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 45802 times:

The latest on the EK frames is that deliveries will resume, MSN 101 - EK #22 to be delivered on July 27.

Source: The forum on www.a380production.com.


User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 45668 times:

Today, MSN110, EK's 29th, was ferried to XFW for outfitting, while MSN092, SQ's 19th and last on order, was ferried to TLS for preparations to delivery

User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 44870 times:

MSN113, EK's 32, is confirmed as being on convoy 16/2012

User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 44826 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 6):
Today, MSN110, EK's 29th, was ferried to XFW for outfitting, while MSN092, SQ's 19th and last on order, was ferried to TLS for preparations to delivery

Wow, first operator to complete their order,wonder if they'll order some more soon?


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1583 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 44633 times:

This may have been covered.
But I was wondering how far the 380 weight reduction programme had got. As I recall it was around the time of the BA production that a step change was being brought in. As I recall they were going to increase the use of ALi/Carbon/Titanium/GLARE to get down/closer to the origonal design weight.

But have no idea where we are.Has the origonal weight target been abandoned,what (if so) is the target weight?

I also recall that BA's aircraft were to be the first with a chage in the AoA of the wings - is that right?

Finally I recall a strong rumour about a year ago I think of some HGW testing at Toulouse. This (I think) did not involve using the stronger 'F/900' wings but just a straight HGW. Did that happen?


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2715 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 44340 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 9):
This may have been covered.
But I was wondering how far the 380 weight reduction programme had got. As I recall it was around the time of the BA production that a step change was being brought in. As I recall they were going to increase the use of ALi/Carbon/Titanium/GLARE to get down/closer to the origonal design weight.

But have no idea where we are.Has the origonal weight target been abandoned,what (if so) is the target weight?

I also recall that BA's aircraft were to be the first with a chage in the AoA of the wings - is that right?

Finally I recall a strong rumour about a year ago I think of some HGW testing at Toulouse. This (I think) did not involve using the stronger 'F/900' wings but just a straight HGW. Did that happen?

Part of these issues were discussed in the previous thread: A380 Production Thread Part 11 (by SA7700 Nov 28 2011 in Civil Aviation) , starting from reply no. 224.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2715 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 43856 times:

Interesting statements from CEO Fabrice Bregier and Airbus programme chief Tom Williams about the A 380-production including plans to change it, unfortunately in German language, maybe there is an English version as well.

Some key statements:
- A 380 production still too slow and too expensive
- in particular cabin outfitting
- the production time is still 25% higher than envisaged
- main task is now to start cabin outfitting earlier
- this could mean reallocating works from XFW to TLS (even if this is a sensitive issue)

Source: http://www.finanzen.ch/nachrichten/a...80-Produktion-beschleunigen-164066


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 43416 times:
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Did either mention whether the cabin outfitting for new customers was an issue, or is XFW still taking a fair bit of time installing the interiors on airframes like EK, where realistically one would expect they would have plenty of experience by now and installation should be...well...routine.

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2715 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 42885 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Did either mention whether the cabin outfitting for new customers was an issue, or is XFW still taking a fair bit of time installing the interiors on airframes like EK

No, they did not mention if it is about cabin outfitting for new customers or not (sorry for not answering earlier). They just stated that it takes too much time in general. Some more specific statements made in that interview:

- many customers have very special cabin outfitting designs, which are expensive and difficult to install
- the fact that the works for producing the A 380s are shared between the two locations causes additional delays
- they compare the situation with the A 330, where cabin outfitting already starts during assembly of the airframe, whereas for the A 380 the cabin outfitting starts at the end of the production.
- main task is now to start with cabin outfitting as early as possible during the construction time

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
realistically one would expect they would have plenty of experience by now and installation should be...well...routine.

Well, the actual times for cabin outfitting and painting phase (measured from ferry flight to XFW and delivery) are almost constant and did not change over the years (from EK #1 untuil EK #21):

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7127/7590427000_65c97366c5_b.jpg

The overall production time has been reduced signiticantly. However, the cabin outfitting times in Hamburg did not change and that fits to above mentioned statements by Airbus' management.

By the way, in the figure above I marked the production time for EK #22 if being delivered on July 31st (it's still in TLS for the preliminary wing cracks fix). Due to the wing-crack-issue the production time will go up again, in this case to almost 14 months.

Please don't kill the messenger   


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10036 posts, RR: 96
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 42863 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 13):

Wow!

So since MSN 013, convoy to first flight has come down from 20 months to reliably 3 months or less, and trending towards 2 months.

First flight to delivery has remained obstinately stuck at 6 months right through the process.

Cabin outfitting has to be the most horrific place to have your bottleneck - all that Work-in-Progress (WIP) just stuck there   

Rgds


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 42833 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 13):
The overall production time has been reduced signiticantly. However, the cabin outfitting times in Hamburg did not change and that fits to above mentioned statements by Airbus' management.

So it sounds like the cabin customization Airbus offered continues to bite them over five years later: first with the designs themselves (CATIA) and now with the installation time not coming down even after having significant experience in installing them.


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 42587 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
So it sounds like the cabin customization Airbus offered continues to bite them over five years later: first with the designs themselves (CATIA) and now with the installation time not coming down even after having significant experience in installing them.

I'm not highly educated on the matter, but the only explanation for this trend (or not-trend, however you like to look at it) is that the number of individual A380 costumers have risen, and so have the respective choices of cabin layout.
What I mean to say is that between convoy and first flight, or between convoy and repositioning to XFW, the amount of diversification of the airplane tends to be nil for all costumers. Sure there are different engine choices, but then again, the engines are "only mounted" onto the wings in TLS, while in XFW they have to adapt to the likes and dislikes of every new costumer.
Not trying to talk down the fact that this bottleneck needs to be solved, and that "German Engeneering" can do better. But I think we should be a little more patient with the fellows who are working to make every airplane as good as it gets from the inside. And to be honest, so far I have heard from nobody complaints about the potential rubbishness of the A380 interieur.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 42565 times:
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Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
But I think we should be a little more patient with the fellows who are working to make every airplane as good as it gets from the inside. And to be honest, so far I have heard from nobody complaints about the potential rubbishness of the A380 interieur.

Believe me, Airbus' generosity has certainly paid dividends for those of us who fly premium cabins on A380s.   

I was just a bit...surprised, I guess...that after having installed the same cabin in almost two dozen A380s for Emirates, the cabin outfitters at XFW might not have been able to appreciably lower the installation time. And I only say that because I get the impression from Fabrice Bregier and Tom Williams that they expected this to happen.

However, it may very well be the case that cabins take "X" amount of time no matter how often you do them and if some of the work can be done on the TLS line (say things like the overhead bins) while doing other assembly-related work, that would reduce the amount of install work necessary at XFW and overall reduce the time to delivery.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2715 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 42526 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
I think we should be a little more patient with the fellows who are working to make every airplane as good as it gets from the inside

First of all I have to state that I neveer had the intention to say anything negative about the people working in XFW. It was not their choice to give the customers that high level of flexibility that they have now and that they are using.

Remember, it's not only about 9 different customers right now (incl BA), EK for example has two different versions and other operators have changed their configuration later on (SQ, AF, QF).

However, I am afraid that even patience will not help. CEO Enders said about one year ago that they will never achieve the level of "mass production" they have achieved on the A 320. He said that cabin outfitting for the A 380 will be always more like working in a manufacture, rather than in a factory.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
And to be honest, so far I have heard from nobody complaints about the potential rubbishness of the A380 interieur.

There is no question about that (by the way, when will QR receive their first A 380   )


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 42357 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
I was just a bit...surprised, I guess...that after having installed the same cabin in almost two dozen A380s for Emirates, the cabin outfitters at XFW might not have been able to appreciably lower the installation time. And I only say that because I get the impression from Fabrice Bregier and Tom Williams that they expected this to happen.

However, it may very well be the case that cabins take "X" amount of time no matter how often you do them and if some of the work can be done on the TLS line (say things like the overhead bins) while doing other assembly-related work, that would reduce the amount of install work necessary at XFW and overall reduce the time to delivery.

Might the lack of decrease in outfitting time not indicate that management and execution of the installation process went according to plan more or less right from the beginning?

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 18):
However, I am afraid that even patience will not help. CEO Enders said about one year ago that they will never achieve the level of "mass production" they have achieved on the A 320. He said that cabin outfitting for the A 380 will be always more like working in a manufacture, rather than in a factory.

Could they throw more hands at each aircraft being outfitted? If the process takes a high number of man hours, is there a possibility of more people working on the aircraft during outfitting, so decreasing the time required? N14AZ''s chart (they're great - thanks) shows a consistent 6 months between FF and delivery. Surely Airbus needs to come up with a plan to reduce that substantially, if at all possible. Not only does it cost money to have all that pre-FF WIP spending 5-6 months in Hamburg, it pushes back delivery dates and some argue that is costing orders.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3560 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 42150 times:
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The trend of posts seem to point to the interior complexity and customer variances, those are convenient whipping boys and probably not the problem at all. The problem actually be a combination of too much hand work fitting parts (poor engineering design for manufacture), capacity problems at supplies (internal and external), or too stringent QA criteria.(*) Do we in fact know how much non or sub system interior work is being done (wiring, plumbing, systems, floor panels, sealed floors for galleys and lavs.. etc).. I'd love to see some interior shots of the plane as delivered XFW.. or a time lapse of an interior installation.
Then again, how much work is required in the cargo compartments?

Are they still dealing with incompatible drawing systems? Seems to me all the cabin panels by now should be snap in place regardless of customer. Personally, 6 months is absurd..


(*) had a case years ago where the exterior finish on a window frame was inspected with a 10x lens as an appearance item, and was experiencing a 60% rejection/scrap rate.. someone finally realized nobody was ever closer than 4 feet (boarding) and were generally 50-100 feet away.. so the spec was changed.


User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 41809 times:

You would have thought the cabin is the easiest part. How hard can it be? Snap on some panels, screw the seats on... draw some cables.

Right? Right? Hello...


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 41653 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 20):
Personally, 6 months is absurd.

If it takes 6 months to fit it all together in the first place, how long will a "D" check take, when it all has to be taken apart first as well?


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10036 posts, RR: 96
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 41481 times:
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Quoting kanban (Reply 20):
The trend of posts seem to point to the interior complexity and customer variances, those are convenient whipping boys and probably not the problem at all. The problem actually be a combination of too much hand work fitting parts (poor engineering design for manufacture), capacity problems at supplies (internal and external), or too stringent QA criteria.(*) Do we in fact know how much non or sub system interior work is being done (wiring, plumbing, systems, floor panels, sealed floors for galleys and lavs.. etc)..

For what its worth I think its possible that the cabling screw up has left them with physical integration issues in the spatial design that are causing great difficulties in the installation sequences/processes.

I can't say it for certain.
But on the product I'm most familiar with, I've certainly seen a set of fairly innocuous looking issues from the engineers standpoint cause absolute mayhem from an installation/physical integration standpoint. And one of the characteristics was that of causing a lot of the installation work to be "bespoke".

The best way out of that is a complete redesign, which ain't gunna happen.
Next best is to identify some low hanging fruit engineering changes that give you the biggest benefits for the smallest input.
Apart from that its a case of using the experience gained from numerous repetitions to drive continuous improvement and embed "leaner" solutions....

Rgds


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3560 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 41222 times:
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Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
Next best is to identify some low hanging fruit engineering changes that give you the biggest benefits for the smallest input..



One would have thought we'd be seeing evidence of producibility changes by now. Are the interior's engineers on site or sitting quietly in France?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 23):
Apart from that its a case of using the experience gained from numerous repetitions to drive continuous improvement and embed "leaner" solutions....


when the 'experience gained' appears to be non repeatable... one wonders if there is an actual drive toward improving... the chart above doesn't indicate it.

I wish ferpe read this thread and could offer some insight.


25 Post contains links and images N14AZ : @ Kanban, regarding: A380 interior shots before the interior installation Here are some examples: No 1 No 2 No 3 The complete photo stream is here: ht
26 astuteman : It doesn't. And my question there is "Is this where the number of customisation options interracts with an inherently difficult integration so as to
27 Stitch : Watching the BBC special on the overhaul of a BA 747-400, there was a fair bit of cabinetry left in the FIRST cabin after they pulled the seats out.
28 kanban : Thanks.. not speaking German I'm not sure how long after arrival the pictures were taken. However things I noticed were buried connections, hand fitt
29 PW100 : I believe that a not insifnificant part of this interior outfitting inefficiency was iron cast (I think that's the correct phrase?) in the production
30 Stitch : That might have been one of the reasons he pushed for all assembly and outfitting on the A350 be done in TLS (which is the case) instead of the latte
31 r2rho : The Airbus cabin engineers are all based in XFW actually. So I don't think it is a lack of on-site support, but rather the late start of outfitting i
32 kanban : Excessive customization is frequently mentioned, however that should not lead to these kinds of delays unless changes are being made on receipt of the
33 Stitch : Airbus took this step with the A350, so perhaps a lesson learned.
34 kanban : so is pride preventing them from applying the idea to the A380?
35 someone83 : Latest movement regarding A380 production MSN111, EK's 29th, had its first flight and was transfered to XFW MSN101, EK's 22nd, has been flown back to
36 Someone83 : MSN101, EK's 22nd, har been delivered
37 Stitch : Which makes how many for the year now? A dozen?
38 Aircellist : Not even a baker's, I guess
39 Post contains links and images ZSOFN : Shot of the flightline from 10 days ago: View Large View MediumPhoto © Tom Collins Anyone know which MSNs are shown?
40 Someone83 : MSN100, should be the unpainted one for TG, while the two unpainted for EK should be 108 and 112. The two painted for EK should be 103 and 105. The o
41 spink : Yes, but BA completely stripped that 747, did full surface checks AND repairs, and completely re-outfitted it in 5 weeks (or was it 6). If it is taki
42 Someone83 : MSN085, SQ's 18th, has just been delivered and is on its way to SIN Airbus also twittered that MSN081, MH's 2nd, has been delivered today. This means
43 Aircellist : Lost my guess, but good for them
44 Post contains images Wolbo : Three A380 deliveries in just two days. That's more like it.
45 BigJKU : I think this is a critical question here. These things are huge capitol investments and time is money in this case. They need to be doing their check
46 goosebayguy : Did the 380 for Kingdom get delivered? Has anyone any photos of it?
47 Someone83 : Not delivered and is still in TLS
48 Post contains links LH422 : Here's a video of the first TG A380 being painted: http://www.businesstraveller.com/new.../video-thai-airways-a380-paint-job
49 N14AZ : Since we have now beginning of August, I thought it would be worth to make a review about the potential 2012-deliveries: Already delivered: 1) MSN 076
50 N14AZ : In other news, we are approaching the 100th first flight of an A 380. FF #99 was MSN 112, EK #31, and if everything goes as planned MSN 100 (TG #3), t
51 Post contains images ferpe : Re the long outfitting process of the A380, I think I can't add anything as I was not on A.net when the A380 was created and you have talked about wha
52 r2rho : In a parallel thread, it is being discussed that BA may delay its delivery (whether initiated from BA or Airbus is unclear). I'll leave the BA-specifi
53 Post contains images N14AZ : This is actually a reason that cannot be stressed often enough. Nice saying. I think I should do the same QR already reported officially that they in
54 jumpjets : I agree with r2rho - if the first 380 for BA is already being joined together and Willie Walsh of IAG is now hoping for delivery maybe in 3rd quarter
55 N14AZ : Not necessarily, let's have a closer look on MSN 095: - convoy arrived in TLS on June 30 2012 - the usual prodution time for a HoV in the recent time
56 HB-IWC : With regard to Emirates deliveries, an analysis of planned EK A388 operations indicates that the airline plans to receive at least 7 and likely even
57 Post contains images EPA001 : I guess it should. Thanks again for all the hard work in giving us the up to date status of the A380 program. Very well written ferpe. And I have all
58 someone83 : Both EK frames: MSN106 has rolled out from outfitting at XFW, while MSN108 is havings its first flight from TLS today
59 N14AZ : Thanks for the information. Just a small note, if you don't mind: MSN 108 had its first flight already back in April (2012-04-23). It seems (and has
60 Post contains images someone83 : Ah, thanks, had completely forgot about that Anyway, based on flightrader she seems to bee heading towards XFW
61 N14AZ : Ah, good to know, because I lost her somewhere near Bordeaux. For some time I had the feeling they wanted to make a flight formation or something sim
62 someone83 : She flew along the coast up to Normandie. Currently at 45.000ft near Amiens, halfway between Paris and the Belgian border Search for AIB01SI on fligh
63 aircellist : That's an interesting item for Lost & found...
64 Post contains images N14AZ : MSN 100 is currently in the air, thereby making the 100th FF of an A 380.
65 Post contains images EPA001 : This is indeed worth of mentioning it. Now lets hope they will get a lot faster to number 200 in the air.
66 someone83 : Currently just outside Paris at 43.000 ft heading north-east, so seems like the transfer to XFW as well
67 PM : What seems like quite a long time ago, I estimated that more of the first 100 A380s would fly with RR than EA. Well, the numbers are 54 for RR and 46
68 Post contains images kl5147 : MSN #115 (to become AF F-HPJJ) departed Langon in convoy nr 18 to Toulouse on Friday august 17 at 22:00 hrs. It's due to arrive in TLS on Wednesday a
69 Someone83 : MSN089, MH's #4, has rolled out from outfitting in XFW after 13 weeks. And MSN107, EK's #26, finished outfitting last week. Not sure if it will go to
70 Someone83 : Some updates this week: -MSN084 MH's #3 was transfered from XFW til TLS delivery center -MSN120 CZ's #5 rolled out fropm FAL in TLS -MSN103 EK's #23 s
71 Post contains links Focker : Anybody know what the situation is with www.A380production.com? It reads the account has been suspended - I miss it already!
72 overcast : I saw on Twitter that it was under maintenance, hopefully nothing to worry about....
73 KarelXWB : MSN088 appears to be back in TLS as seen on a todays Flickr picture. Delivery slated for this month. Deliveries for this month are: MSN087 TG #1 MSN08
74 WestWing : Based on earlier reports - 9V-SKT was scheduled for delivery tomorrow (Sept 6). Noteworthy because she is the last delivery for SQs current firm orde
75 Someone83 : Delivered! There also might be a total of five deliveries in September
76 r2rho : I expect SQ to make a follow-on order sometime in the not too far future, probably when the wing issues are fully solved and delivery rates become mo
77 Post contains images Wolbo : BA's first A380 has finished body join.
78 ba319-131 : Thanks Wolbo, can't wait to see her fully painted, will look great!
79 Post contains images lightsaber : Excellent! The first of the new high MTOW/wing twist birds! I'm surprised to see her towed without more weight at the engine mounts though... A link
80 goosebayguy : That's some tail! Its going to look great!
81 Post contains images EPA001 : Yes, makes me a bit hyper as well. Good to see another color scheme on an A380.
82 Post contains images aircellist : What? Is that BA's new color scheme? Shall we call it Eurogreen-trash?
83 Post contains images mffoda : And better yet... Its ETS carbon footprint is fantastic! (no engines)
84 EK413 : I'm afraid to break the news to everyone but I believe we have a new contender for the best looking livery going around on the A380! EK413
85 teme82 : And that would be who??
86 EK413 : Did you read my original post and the comments copied in... EK413
87 Post contains images EPA001 : Well, I want to see the fully painted A380 of BA before I give it that much credit. But so far she is looking good. .
88 Post contains images EK413 : Without a doubt she's going to be the hottest looking A380 going around! EK413
89 shankly : There is something about seeing the BA colour scheme on an aircraft (OK just the tail at the moment) that provides it with the ultimate stamp of appr
90 Post contains images EK413 : And not to mention BA will be the 1st A380s with blue engine cowlings... she's going to look hot EK413
91 Post contains links N14AZ : I just went through the latest pictures on skyliner and saw MSN 002 in one picture in the background - without engines and without any signs of activi
92 Post contains links KarelXWB : Missing engines and the APU exhaust is covered up. She's not going anywhere soon. See http://forum.a380production.com/boar...omer)&p=30298&vie
93 EK413 : Probably undergoing modification works and wing crack repairs? EK413
94 Someone83 : Some updates this this: MSN088, CZ's 4th, delivered MSN119, EK's 34th, confirmed carried on convoy 20/2012 and will soon start body join MSN122, TG's
95 teme82 : Sorry. =D Never post when you have just woken up...
96 kl911 : When is the full painting of BA's 1st A380 scheduled?
97 Post contains images EK413 : We've all made this mistake and myself included... EK413
98 brindabella : Mmm, i wondered too. Lots of lead in the base of the tug? cheers, Bill
99 Someone83 : First it needs to finish work in TLS, and then go to XFW for outfitting, so this will probably take at least half a year
100 KennyK : Singapore Airlines have recently received their 19th and last A388 and will hopefully order more. It looks like the next orders to be completed around
101 KarelXWB : Update: - MSN087 TH #1 is now wearing its final registration (HS-TUA) - MSN114 MH #6 completed final assembly - MSN120 CZ #5 already performed its fir
102 EK413 : She has weights on the inner engine mounts... EK413
103 Post contains links and images aircellist : Somewhat surprised there is no mention in this thread (of all threads...) of that delivery... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-a380-at-toulouse
104 Airvan00 : Probably because it has it's own thread with at last count 45 replies
105 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : MSN095 finished final assembly: Photo by A380_TLS. Click for a bigger picture.
106 PHX787 : Wow blue engines! looking good!
107 Someone83 : Emirates took delivery of both MSN105 and 106 yesterday
108 Post contains links art : Comments by Airbus VP-Marketing Sept 27 reported in Air Transport World: Lange told ATW that modifications have been defined to resolve the wing crack
109 r2rho : Good, that makes 19 for the year so far, 7 more to go in 3 months to match last year's deliveries should be achievable. The last stated target of 28-
110 KarelXWB : Starting of October, the convoys (each with a complete frame) are back at 3 a month. We should see a higher production rate somewhere next year. Curre
111 art : I seem to recall that Airbus expected to be producing 40 complete A380's by year 4 or 5 of production. Clearly they badly misjudged the time needed f
112 Semaex : I have a couple of questions concerning the cabin outfitting, and I feel like this is the best place to get them answered. As we have repeatedly seen,
113 Aircellist : I must be an orderly person...
114 KennyK : Maybe set up another outfitting line purely for EK in TLS and pass everyone else through XFW ?
115 2175301 : - I am not sure that will help in the end as the cost of setting up a 2nd line will not be cheap. Airbus has a problem with the A380. That being that
116 kanban : While the outfitting is currently the most visible bottleneck, the entire A380 assembly process from sub assembly to delivery is a hodge podge of arr
117 Aircellist : How about installing the monuments in the fuselage at the initial assembly chain, still in Germany to protect workshare?
118 r2rho : Cabin customization has been and is being a nightmare for the A380. Airbus went way too far in letting customers customize their cabins. Every new cu
119 art : It seems that these factions who think of their share of the work first are very short sighted. IMO the A380 will secure fewer orders (resulting in l
120 jumpjet : Absolutely on the button! Dealing with anything in life "by committee" rarely works and the essential nature of this invariably leads to inbuilt inne
121 bongodog1964 : The situation of completing an airframe at TLS, giviing it a first flight, then sending it to XFW for 9 months of cabin outfitting should never have
122 KarelXWB : It's not 9 months anymore. Let's have a look at the outfitting time (cabin installation + painting) for the latest frames: MSN081: 14 weeks MSN087: 1
123 bongodog1964 : Thanks for the correction, thats better but still a long time for a plane to sit idle with very expensive new engines hanging under the wings. What d
124 KarelXWB : Another 'problem' is that there are only 6 outfitting hangars in XFW. I remember MSN094 sitting at the TLS flightline for 7 weeks (nearly 2 months!) a
125 babybus : I'm still kinda hoping that BA pull some fancy cabin trick such as a bar in premium classes like Emirates and the others. A nice retro touch to match
126 Post contains images art : ??? Has the sky BA flies through got less space in it?
127 Post contains images jumpjet : Sorry, I don't quite get this????? Can you please explain?
128 sweair : All this long fitting work must cost Airbus a lot of money, why cant they just offer a standard cabin and anything beyond that will be billed to the a
129 bongodog1964 : herein lies the problems of working across two sites, if everything was done at TLS, this could be done at the same time as the test flights.
130 Stitch : Airbus did exactly this in order to streamline A350 production.The original plan was to follow the A380 model - build in TLS and outfit in XFW - howe
131 kanban : anything greater than 1 week outfitting (2 in worst case) 1 week painting reflects gross incompetence in planning and organization... the customer sp
132 art : You say interior fitting should take 2 weeks at most. Any idea how long it takes for any other aircraft where interior fitting only starts after asse
133 PW100 : I agree that a not insifnificant part of this interior outfitting inefficiency was iron cast (I think that's the correct phrase?) in the production fl
134 Stitch : But isn't that the case for most, if not all, airliners? They seem to assemble the entire fuselage first, then add all the interior bits (insulation
135 PW100 : It was my impression that the airframe sections of the likes of 787, 350 have in increasing level of pre-stuffing where not only these large items, b
136 kanban : OK maybe 2 weeks... I spent years managing the parts going into the 757 and process inspecting the 737, plus a few years around the 747 and properly
137 ricknroll : The A380 is a much larger and more complex machine that the 757. It also has a much wider variation in how the seating can be laid out, the types of s
138 kanban : That's the myth... yes the A380 is bigger, but the seat tracks are installed upstream.. and it's a standard layout. seats could be installed in 24 ho
139 Post contains images astuteman : This is certainly a far more pragmatic set of reasons to present to us than playing the "politics" BS card as was done earlier. There is nothing in t
140 maxter : And mine as well. The almost hysterical and irrational bashing of the non engineering side of assembly issues is in marked contrast with the cold log
141 kanban : your opinion is always valued . Apologies if I seem driven, we've gone through multiple threads about the problems and seen little improvement beyond
142 art : It seems there was not too much cold logical reasoning in choosing the manner in which the A380 was to be built. I don't think bashing Airbus for the
143 Post contains links KarelXWB : Here is an interesting quote from a 2005 article: http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...speeds-up-single-aisle-production/ I do not know what happen
144 tdscanuck : It was perfectly rational; you're just using a different version of "best" than Airbus (or Boeing or Bombardier or Embraer or...). If the game was al
145 EK413 : What the hell are you talking about...? EK413
146 astuteman : For what its worth I completely share your frustrations (I suspect we operate, or have operated, in a similar part of the value system in this type o
147 lightsaber : I too believe that. I'm hearing that some of the wiring will *never* be done by the process envisioned as the connectors just will not fit through th
148 art : When you compromise the efficiency of a production process to the extent that you cannot build your product profitably, why bother designing, develop
149 PW100 : I do indeed think that this is the main problem. How long did it take Airbus to complete the cabin outfitting on SQ last airframe? All the logistics
150 Post contains images cmf : Add that it is practically impossible to move the full supply chain to a single location. There's just too much infrastructure and people required. P
151 art : Because it increases costs too much. If this was driven by workshare some other work should have been moved to Germany to make up for all A380 work b
152 Stitch : If astuteman and lightsaber are correct, the problem is in the fundamental design of the A380. Doing everything in TLS would probably have some mitig
153 AirlineCritic : I agree with Astuteman and others that there's an underlying technical constraint that is causing these problems. Assembly and outfit in different lo
154 jumpjets : It has been suggested on another thread that BAs Boeing widebodies have their Y cabins fitted by Boeing and then flown to the UK for the rest of the f
155 kanban : While I moan about the inefficiency, I do not believe the work share split itself is the problem. It's how it's planned and managed. Thinking about t
156 Stitch : A380s are assembled in France (TLS) and then flown to Germany (XFW) for outfitting. As to the rest of your questions, I'm guessing that the original
157 jumpjets : Thanks for clarifying.
158 tdscanuck : For starters, none of the manufacturers do full program-level accounting (not to be confused with "program accounting", which is a cost-allocation ac
159 cmf : I'm sorry but that doesn't address what is the root of the problem. By itself there is no problem splitting assembly between different places. Often
160 art : You don't think A & B know with certainty that their narrowbodies are built profitably? I do. Accepted. Not difficult to guess. My bad. I thought
161 kanban : the process is constantly maturing, when I started every interior clip was installed after body join, that began moving back into section assembly th
162 Post contains images r2rho : They are probably bound by you-ask-for-it-and-we'll-build-it contracts (i.e. showers) signed with the various airlines. I wonder though, if for futur
163 tdscanuck : I'm sure they know that their narrowbodies are profitable. I'm equally sure that if you ask them "How much profit did you make on *that* aircraft?" t
164 Post contains images art : Re: extended outfitting time stemming from the fundamental design of the aircraft, how did these problems come about? It seems strange that an experi
165 jollo : Wow: 6 months to fit interiors on a total 22 months build time? That's around 30%, sounds like a lot. Anybody knows how many people (FTE ) work on eac
166 Stitch : Airbus allowing far too much customization of interiors and then designing their installation on two incompatible systems. One of the selling points
167 astuteman : I'm not sure on what basis you discount them when asking that question, as in my opinion, it is exactly this that is causing the problem. At the time
168 Post contains images lightsaber : To expand. The original plan was to have the wiring pre-made such that at the D-check interval (or a 'heavy C') it would be cheaper to quickly replac
169 Post contains images art : astuteman, lightsaber - thanks for your (to me) revelations. I was under the impression that the wiring problems had been solved for "Wave 2" aircraft
170 astuteman : An excellent explanation my friend. It's easy to see how the CATIA screw up could stay with this programme to the bitter end, at least to some degree
171 Stitch : I am going to hazard a guess here that "Wave 1" aircraft were ones that were already assembled and had to be re-worked (as in having their installed
172 astuteman : I've wondered the same. From memory, that was indeed one of the key issues - that Al wire takes up more space. I can't believe that it isn't being lo
173 Post contains links kanban : So what I hearing is the FAL slowness is related to the ships wiring and the outfitting slowness is related to the IFE wiring? Then it seems there are
174 Post contains images airmagnac : This is certainly true to a certain extent, especially for all those blunders made in the early days. Some of which continue to create unavoidable pr
175 Post contains images SQ22 : Me too, but we can try to ask the right questions. Does anyone know something about the 747 outfitting in the first years? I guess this was a challen
176 kanban : Please don't let the size or number of decks snow you, processes should be repeatable without fitting and trimming no matter what the size is, you jus
177 N14AZ : Some operators have even more than one A 380, e.g. EK with two different versions and QF, SQ and AF changed their layout after receiving The first ba
178 EPA001 : Thanks astuteman and lightsaber for your detailed views on the issue. Your views sound highly plausible. My question would be this: is a possible lau
179 airmagnac : Agreed, insofar as you are working on standardized products. But if my suspicions are true, there is a loss of commonality very early in the cabin sy
180 Someone83 : Some production updates this week: MSN096, KE's 6th, has finished outfitting after 14 weeks MSN123, EK's 32nd, has finished FAL after 11 weeks MSN086,
181 kanban : note: both flow through rates in the first quote should not be considered optimal... or acceptable.
182 Someone83 : MSN121, the second frame for BA, is confirmed as the frame being convoyed to TLS this week
183 Mayohoo : Still, since one airline makes up a high percentage of the aircraft volume, you would expect the Emirates a380s to be completed at a much faster pace
184 Aircellist : May it be bad enough that it prevents the A389 from ever existing? (long shot question). Thanks for the tentative explanations, by the way, Astuteman
185 Post contains images Stitch : If Airbus can outfit an A380-800, they can certainly outfit an A380-900. The real question is how easily / how much can Airbus mitigate the outfittin
186 2175301 : Let me phrase it in the correct terminology: If Airbus cannot outfit an A380-800 in a cost effective fashion; it is true that they could still outfit
187 kanban : There has got to be more improvement than that relative to outfitting... the 11 week FAL rate is likewise got to come down or do people believe they
188 Aircellist : Thanks for rephrasing my question in a neater way. That was what I had in mind, asking the question. I do hope the A389 will come to exist one day. B
189 Someone83 : MSN107, EK's 26th A380, was delivered from XFW yesterday. This is also the third A380 delivered to EK this month There is also planned 33 conyoys in 2
190 brindabella : Quite true. However it should be noted that B have ended-up with 3 lines, rather than the single one which they apparently anticipated. How well I re
191 Post contains images Stitch : It's also fair to note that CHS was built to protect Boeing against labor actions by the IAM at PAE and the surge line is a temporary line and not ca
192 Post contains images brindabella : All true! cheers, Bill
193 lightsaber : The fundamental problem is the port diameters. In Catia 4, a port might be designed with a 7.5cm diameter. In Catia 5, they might have seen the port
194 Post contains links Aircellist : Many (belated) thanks for the explanation. I know that every mm counts... The difference just one or two mm bridge height may have on a cello's playa
195 Revelation : Even in the days of yore, the projection was a frame out the doors every 3 days with each frame taking 12 days to click together. Has been in place s
196 art : 9 weeks to year end. Airbus hopes to deliver 28(?) frames this year. I wonder how close they will get to their target.
197 Post contains images EPA001 : Me too. Although the issues with the wings have not been very helpful to them. .
198 ricknroll : I would very much doubt that Airbus thinks they are optimal or acceptable. They also have a system that is producing planes, and you can't move from
199 Post contains images r2rho : Seems a bit too ambitious, they'd have to deliver 4 a/c per month. But they should - and must - at least match the 26 deliveries of last year. Delive
200 KarelXWB : The frames scheduled for this year are: MSN084 MH #3 MSN089 MH #4 MSN093 TG #2 MSN096 KE #6 MSN108 EK #27 MSN109 EK #28 MSN110 EK #29 MSN111 EK #30 MS
201 cheeken : That's popping one A380 out per week!
202 someone83 : MSN114, MH's 6th aircraft, have had its first flight and transfer to XFW
203 lightsaber : Moderators, please start a new thread due to the length. Lightsaber
204 someone83 : MSN132, EK #37, is confirmed as the aircraft on convoy 25/2012
205 someone83 : MSN116, EK's 33rd, has rolled out from FAL after nine weeks from convoy. This makes it the fastest aircraft to this day
206 Post contains images EPA001 : That is the best part of your good news posting.
207 Post contains links and images N14AZ : Does anybody know what's going on in this picture? I found this picture in an article about EADS' press conference today: http://www.wallstreetjournal
208 Post contains links india1 : Flightglobal reports they're online to deliver 30 as planned this year. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...30-a380-deliveries-in-2012-378700/ Won'
209 Post contains images Heavierthanair : G´day Painting maybe? Cheers Peter
210 Post contains images N14AZ : That's not the painting hangar in XFW. It looks different. This hangar looks Tououse-ish to me but I might be wrong. I wasn't able to follow producti
211 petera380 : I think it may be MSN 001 in TLS before the unveiling? I seem to remember they covered it all up.
212 Post contains images EPA001 : That is ambitious. Let's hope they can pull it off.
213 KarelXWB : Let's have a look at the remaining 10 frames. MSN084 MH #3 contractually delivered MSN089 MH #4 contractually delivered MSN093 TG #2 back in TLS for
214 Aircellist : Just the usual end-of-year rush. It's been like this (arguably not on the same scale) since the beginning, with that plane. From what I see on Karel'
215 jumpjet : How far is BAs first from taking to the air for the first time?
216 petera380 : Airbus has delivered 22 so far this year so they only need 8 more to make the target of 30.
217 KarelXWB : Correct. The 5 EK frames will be delivered from XFW, the others from TLS. Another company has to apply the stripes on the MH frames first. I guess bo
218 Post contains images EPA001 : Great to read your clarifications. So it is "only 8 frames".
219 kanban : My first glance was someone decided to install a cargo door over the wing. closer examination looks like they are hiding titles etc. the tail looks o
220 Post contains links KarelXWB : MSN095 is now in the air, first flight today. http://fr24.com/AIB01SK
221 scouseflyer : It's very odd as they've covered up the MSN no at the front too. Do we know if this is a recent photo, if it is there could be an announcement coming
222 jumpjet : thanks for this....
223 Post contains images jumpjet :
224 Post contains links robffm2 : Looking at the file name of the linked pic some interesting data is revealed: "DE-AE789" and the date "2012-07-12". Performing a Google picture searc
225 Post contains links Ychocky : Photos of FF: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aircrafts/archives/date-taken/2012/11/09/ If your not already following "A380_TLS" on Flickr, I'd recommend
226 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : Here are some pictures of MSN095 first flight today: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aircrafts/8169863016/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/air
227 Post contains links KarelXWB : MSN109 (EK, A6-EEB) has been delivered: Source http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/266960035643527168[Edited 2012-11-09 09:56:13]
228 lightsaber : Thank you. EK has exactly 30% of the A380s flying... That is amazing. Lightsaber
229 Extra300 : EK got 30% of all 388 delivered. And also 30% of the EK order is now filled. 63 more to go! wow
230 Post contains images AirlineCritic : I like the new green livery for BA
231 Post contains images astuteman : That they are already operating 27 A380's is pretty impressive too. Once upon a time that was a lot of VLA's.... Rgds
232 mffoda : Has anyone heard that the wing fix will be all metallic, no composite ribs? Over on the website verovenia, there is a link to a EADS webcast from the
233 Post contains links and images EK413 : And here's the video to compliment the photos http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=8ajsv5GVJZY Video starts at 0.10 seconds into
234 lightsaber : It is a lot of VLAs! Some here on a.net (not you) predicted EK wouldn't last to receive that many. Although, for many airlines, I'm most interested i
235 KarelXWB : The new order & delivery sheet is online, Airbus delivered 5 A380 aircraft last month: - MSN084 MH #3 (26/10) - MSN089 MH #4 (31/10) - MSN105 EK #
236 someone83 : It's now parked at the delivery centre with its stickers on.. MSN089 is IMHO still "white"
237 Post contains links KarelXWB : MSN095 on its way to XFW: http://fr24.com/AIB02SK
238 Post contains links and images Heavierthanair : G´day Malaysia Airlines 9M-MNC is on its way "home" http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/9m-mnc Cheers Peter
239 kanban : Where's the chart guy with the chart showing flow times from convoy to delivery etc.? Would be interesting to see what has or hasn't improved.
240 Post contains links and images N14AZ : I am here. I changed job and cannot invest as much time in tracking all the productions steps as I used to do (in particular not during working time
241 kanban : Thanks... I'll digest it tonight
242 Post contains links KarelXWB : Here is a nice video of MSN110 (A6-EEC) cabin first flight (CFF): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UNpoz9xhxM
243 Aircellist : Thanks, N14AZ. The disturbing thing is that, apparently, the time spent in XFW has... well, remained flat, or maybe even increased a little...
244 Someone83 : MSN128, Korean's 8th, is confirmed being on convoy 26/2012 arriving in TLS this week
245 robffm2 : The brown line (time between roll-out and FF) remains also flat. Considering that the cabin-outfit is done in XFW and there still many different vari
246 Aircellist : The brown line is flat indeed, but it is somewhat lower.
247 art : My thanks, too, to N14AZ for his great illustrations. What seems clear is that even though 50+ A380's with revised wiring have been produced, the time
248 N14AZ : But you have to consider that all the Emirates-airframes recently delivered (for sure MSN 101, 103, 105 - I am not 100%-sure about the others (for MS
249 Post contains images astuteman : What I see in your graph is that the "baseline" times now seem to be 2 months between convoy and roll-out 1 month between roll-out and FF 6 months be
250 KarelXWB : Many of the new frames didn't get a wing fix before delivery. For example, of the 4 delivered MH frames only MSN084 did get its wings fixed. As for t
251 art : What would be nice would be to see convey to delivery come down by 4-8 weeks because of a reduction in outfitting time and at the same time the cost
252 KarelXWB : Here is an update status of the last frames scheduled for delivery this year. - MSN093 TG #2 at TLS delivery centre - MSN096 KE #6 at TLS delivery ce
253 art : Thanks. After rollout does any more work need to be done before customer acceptance flights (and delivery paperwork) then delivery?
254 N14AZ : I was refering to the EK airframes mentioned above. That would be an Emirantas A 380, i.e. a mixture of EK's MSN 116 (2.07 months between convoy comp
255 N14AZ : I was refering to the EK airframes mentioned above only. I should have made myself more clear. According to my database that would be an Emirantas A
256 KarelXWB : There are a few jobs left after roll out, like checking the fuel tanks for leaks and testing the engines in the powerbox. And a customer walk maybe.
257 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread has become quite long and difficult to follow. It will therefore be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the thread loc
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