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VX Reports First Quarter 2012 Results  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16934 posts, RR: 48
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11274 times:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/virgin...ports-first-quarter-180000034.html

"Top Line First Quarter Reporting Highlights:

Operating results: The airline reported an operating loss of $49 million in the first quarter on revenues of $267 million – a (65) percent change year-over-year.

Load factor: Revenue passenger miles increased 38 percent on a 29 percent increase in capacity, resulting in a first quarter load factor of 81 percent – a five point load factor improvement for the quarter year-over-year, and a record load factor for the airline in the first quarter.

Top line progress: Revenue in the first quarter was up 33 percent versus first quarter 2011. RASM increased by two percent year-over-year.

Cost control: Operating expense per available seat mile excluding fuel (ex-fuel CASM) increased by 1 percent in the quarter, driven by significant investment in growth (training newly hired teammates, aircraft in modification and reservations system changeover).

Cash: The airline ended the quarter with $111 million in unrestricted cash.
"

-18% Operating margin, vs -14% last year.

[Edited 2012-07-03 14:06:20]

[Edited 2012-07-03 14:06:47]


E pur si muove -Galileo
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11070 times:

At what point do they stop throwing good money after bad.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 832 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10945 times:

A growing negative operating margin is not a good sign BUT RASM increase of 2% is a good sign.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 1):
At what point do they stop throwing good money after bad.

It takes money to make money. If VX can grow large enough to build an attractive network with multiple daily flights they can start attracting high yield business customers which pushed up margins (Which is one of their problems)

I used to approach VX with skepticism but everytime they grow , they are improving key metrics. I just don't know how long the investors are going to stay on the sideline watching negative returns. With fuel prices declining , VX is poised to pop into profit.

Where is VXCabincrew , he always gives a balanced/unbiased outlook on the comapny.


User currently offlineH53Epilot From Israel, joined Mar 2004, 177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10557 times:

The problem with declining fuel prices are the hedges VX has. Delta, for example, lost quite a bit of money with fuel hedges and declining fuel prices. Remains to be seen.....

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 832 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10443 times:

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 3):

The problem with declining fuel prices are the hedges VX has. Delta, for example, lost quite a bit of money with fuel hedges and declining fuel prices. Remains to be seen.....

Does VX hedge ? I know US has stopped hedging but with VX being a private company , I am not sure they even need to disclose this ?


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10373 times:

There is only so many times you can go to the well. At some point someone has to say enough is enough.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineH53Epilot From Israel, joined Mar 2004, 177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10179 times:

From their latest release. Very ambiguous....
"In late 2011, Virgin America resumed a structured fuel hedging program to help manage the impact of fuel price volatility.  Approximately 70 percent of the airline's fuel consumption in the first quarter of 2012 was hedged at prices slightly below market levels, resulting in a fuel expense for the quarter that was approximately $2 million below market prices.  The carrier has hedged approximately 33 percent of its expected fuel consumption for the remainder of 2012.  Since April 2012, fuel prices have dropped significantly.  Under Virgin America's hedging program, the Company will not realize the full benefit of falling prices until the second half of 2012."


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10021 times:

Fuel is a total pain in the ass for the airlines. VX did what they had to do, and hedge. Lets face it, oil prices were showing no signs of easing. The bright light out of this is the 2% RASM increase. I wonder what kind of quarter numbers would have been generated if fuel costs were at levels we see currently? I suspect we might have seen a profit.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinenwadtwe16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9965 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 5):

Typical!!  

I knew as soon as i read this the HATERS would feed like rats. VX is a great airline and doing great things. They are very close to a profit im sure and call me crazy but they ARE commanding high fares from pax and from my point of view as a Corporate Travel Mgr i can tell you people are begging to be booked on them whenever and wherever possible. 81% LF shows they are doing well and i never see very low fares on them, competitive but not low. I know they have to be doing great into DFW by now too, another good sign as that was a new route. I see PDX bookings are soft though but that what, less than a month in? Pure specualtion but i feel there is a master plan to bring Virgin America together with Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Australia at some point..and im sure with things being as 'close' to good as they are their investors would keep going the distance.


User currently offlineVXCabinCrew From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9954 times:

Quoting ,reply=3:
Where is VXCabincrew , he always gives a balanced/unbiased outlook on the comapny.

Haha, thanks for asking about me phxa340  

I'm going to make this quick because I have be up very early in the morning to start a 3-day trip!

While I wasn't anticipating us making a profit for this quarter, the total loss was more than I had expected.

I won't touch on fuel, as that has already been sufficiently covered.

As was mentioned by phxa340, a big part of the loss for us has been the operation of so many new stations. From what they tell us at work in emails, it takes 12-15 months for a new market to mature into profitability. We started DFW in December 2010, and it has just become profitable in the past few months (DFW-LAX has proven to be especially strong for us). So with the handful of new markets we have, the financial drain can be seen in our results. We are about to enter into a period of planned slow growth due to the minimal number of aircraft deliveries we will have between now and next year. So hopefully, our newer markets will be able to mature, while we strengthen our proven markets.

Also a huge drain for us financially was the messy transition to Sabre. It was a painful time for us at the company and the expense that we incurred was not anticipated.

I'm not going to make any predictions about the future, as I'm neither a psychic nor a financial analyst, but the results of our Sabre transition have exceeded our expectations, enabling us to draw in higher-yielding traffic and giving us a big boost through several interline agreements. Also, the integration of V America, V Atlantic and V Australia frequent flier programs and our new codeshare with V Australia will be integral to our effort to achieve profit this year.

I'm looking forward to seeing how 2012 turns out for us.


User currently offlinenwadtwe16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9935 times:

Quoting VXCabinCrew (Reply 9):

Being able to sell, exchange and all around handle you guys in Sabre makes you such a more viable option for people to end up on VX. Since the transition i am selling alot of VX and like i said above when people find out they CAN take VX they jump on it! Have a great trip VXCabinCrew  


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9904 times:

Quoting VXCabinCrew (Reply 9):
I'm looking forward to seeing how 2012 turns out for us.

Fingers crossed that fuel prices continue to fall! While I agree with you on maturing markets, I think fuel is probably VXs most costly expense. If fuel drops another 20%, I bet VX would be spitting profits like crazy.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9789 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
A growing negative operating margin is not a good sign BUT RASM increase of 2% is a good sign.

Hahahahahahahaha!

Yes, RASM up 2% is awesome.

Until you get to the line further down in the financials and you see this:

CASM UP 5.3%

D'oh!

  

Virgin should christen its next Airbus the "RMS Titanic"

D'oh!

  


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3171 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8741 times:

"Cost control: Operating expense per available seat mile excluding fuel (ex-fuel CASM) increased by 1 percent in the quarter, driven by significant investment in growth (training newly hired teammates, aircraft in modification and reservations system changeover). "


This is most concerning. Very concerning as a matter of fact. At this point, they are growing enough that costs should be absorbed by the growth. It is when you stop growing that your costs start to rise if you don't watch them...see B6.


"It takes money to make money. If VX can grow large enough to build an attractive network with multiple daily flights they can start attracting high yield business customers which pushed up margins (Which is one of their problems) "


Nah, I don't buy that. It sounds like a gambler. It takes smart money to make money. The closest airline to VX we have seen is B6. They were profitable while growing until the growth got so out of control, that they started to lose operational control and lost money. VX has yet to make a dime....which is not where they should be right now.

"Typical!!

I knew as soon as i read this the HATERS would feed like rats. VX is a great airline and doing great things. They are very close to a profit im sure "


Don't label people haters. People are having a bad reaction again because they are seeing VX lose money again. I for one like the airline as they service my airport well. That said, take your head out of the sand, lose the emotions and see this:


-18% Operating margin, vs -14% last year

They are NOT close to a profit.


User currently offlinelucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8554 times:

I hate to sound pessimistic, but at some point they'll need to turn a profit to prove their viability. At this point it doesn't look like they're even close to reaching that milestone. What's most disconcerting is the fact that VX lost $49 million in one quarter and is only sitting on $110 million in unrestricted cash. Not much of a cushion when your burning over $15 milion per month.

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8397 times:

Quoting nwadtwe16 (Reply 8):
VX is a great airline and doing great things.

no they are digging themselves more into a hole. Note the -18% vs -14% operating margin.

IMO the US market place still has to much capacity. If Virgin is still around in 5 years I would be pretty surprised.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 13):

This is most concerning. Very concerning as a matter of fact. At this point, they are growing enough that costs should be absorbed by the growth. It is when you stop growing that your costs start to rise if you don't watch them...see B6.

        



yep.
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2042 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8370 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 11):
If fuel drops another 20%, I bet VX would be spitting profits like crazy.

Not really saying that much, if fuel drops another 20% most US airlines would probably be spitting profits like crazy and using the opportunity to be more aggressive with competition such as VX.

[Edited 2012-07-04 06:22:34]

User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 829 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7620 times:

VX could be doing worse. They have the advantage of AA's bankruptcy and UA/CO's poor inflight product (lack of wifi among that) and uncanny ability to piss off their customers. Their other competitors such as WN and AS are profitable even during the hard times whereas VX is not, even with a lower CASM. With fuel coming down dramatically they'd better show a 3rd quarter profit or they likely never will.

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7499 times:

I am not surprised to see the losses as I thought VX had a silly business plan from the beginning. [sarcasm] Gee, lets throw more capacity on already hyper competitive routes like LAX/SFO-JFK. We will make a ton of money! [sarcasm off] As their DFW experience has shown, there is some potential in less-competitive markets (I suspect that PHL and FLL will be successful as well). Unfortunately, the bulk of their capacity remains in the hyper competitive portions of the network where they will never have enough critical mass to be successful.

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 832 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7458 times:

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 12):

I never understand why VX attracts so many individuals who call for the end of this company. Starting and maintaining an airline is incredibly capital intensive - meaning yes , you dump at ton of money into it , then dump even more.

I gave this example in another VX thread, Sirius XM radio hasn't turned a profit in year but investors continue to pour money into based on the future returns you plan on getting. Launching satellites is expensive and competing against FM , Pandora, AM , CDs and MP3s is a crowded field. But Sirius now has those capital expenditures completed so they can focus on returning profits. VX is doing the same thing right now , investing in new aircraft , routes , facilities and as VXCabincrew pointed out - Sabre.

I have made my feelings clear that VX financials have areas of serious concern however , it is wayyyy to early to start calling for the demise of this company. Wait for their capital expenditures to start paying off.

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 12):
Virgin should christen its next Airbus the "RMS Titanic"

Poor use of that description sir when were talking about an aircraft. Jet Blue lost money in 05 and 06 (Yes it was less than VX but still) and no one was calling for its demise. Plus they had the luxury of tapping financing by offering stock. VX is doing this privately which makes their growth that much more remarkable.


User currently offlinejblua320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3175 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7390 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 19):

Poor use of that description sir when were talking about an aircraft. Jet Blue lost money in 05 and 06 (Yes it was less than VX but still) and no one was calling for its demise. Plus they had the luxury of tapping financing by offering stock. VX is doing this privately which makes their growth that much more remarkable.

The difference is that B6 went from making money to a period of uncontrollable growth and managed to fix the problem to return to profitability within 2 years. VX has never made a profit in over 5 years and while a 2% RASM improvement is beneficial, it's cannot stand alone when it comes tied to a 5% CASM increase. VX has fairly disciplined cost control so where are they going to streamline costs enough to balance the revenue environment and make money?

I'm hoping for the best for VX - they have wonderful people working for them who have put a lot of time and effort into making the VX experience a very positive one for customers. I think they can do it... but goodness, when??


User currently offlineAtlflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7266 times:

Why can't VX join an alliance? I would choose them domestically everytime.

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2026 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7222 times:

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 21):
Why can't VX join an alliance? I would choose them domestically everytime.

Why would an alliance want them? Their route network adds nothing that the existing US members don't already cover.


User currently offlineSuperDash From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6581 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 19):
I never understand why VX attracts so many individuals who call for the end of this company.

I don't understand why so many people think they are doing great. They say anything to may it sound like life is good. But when you read their financials....   

While I am not calling for their end, I believe they are closer to the Chapter 11 side of life than they are from the huge success side of life; contrary to the wildly positive spin they are putting on their (lack of) earnings.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4878 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

While I certainly wish for VX to succeed, and wish nothing but the best for their employees, this airline is looking more and more like a vanity project than anything else. Heck, even Donald Trump bailed on his airline and his ego knows no bounds.


Next Up: STL-TPA-BWI-PWM-BWI-STL
25 milemaster : It's really odd isn't it? Not sure why anyone without an agenda would be against an airline bucking the trend and trying to innovate a better flying
26 XT6Wagon : Its really odd that people are pushing for the survival of an airline that was created to bring about the destruction of one or more existing america
27 avek00 : VX adds nothing useful to our skies. NOTHING AT ALL. The numbers make clear it's nothing more than a parasite folly. In fact, the money that UA and A
28 LAXintl : Lets get this clear again. Virgin America is a AMERICAN COMPANY. Its based in the US, and employs 2,600 Americans. Last I checked, neither AA, DL, UA
29 MaverickM11 : What would they learn? Why would they look at a carrier whose operating margin is -18%? Wouldn't they look to NK/AS/G4, whose operating margins are i
30 santi319 : VX is a proof that contrary to A-Net's popular belief, Customers really don't give a damn about anything but the ticket price and will gladly just fly
31 LAXintl : How about simple things like service delivery. Each legacy airlines make a lot of noise about being friendly, have great products, offer the best XYZ
32 avek00 : I have no good reason to ever fly Virgin America. When I need to fly to SFO, I do so on United, which has many aircraft that offer an experience and
33 LAXintl : Why would profitability make or break the worthiness of a company ? Look at companies like Go-Go, Twitter, Sprint, RIM (Blackberry) all printing red i
34 DeltaL1011man : haha. So Delta and United should walk away from Billions in profits and get a nice NEGATIVE 18 operating margin? Jeesh you must be just rolling in mo
35 HiFlyerAS : Exactly. Look at the success of NK and G4. People don't give a damn who's name is on the side unless they're frequent fliers racking up miles and loo
36 avek00 : Because corporations exist for the primary purpose of making a profit?
37 flyguy89 : Wow, just wow, not even a coherent argument but rather an emotionally charged, irrational outburst offering nothing to support what you throw out the
38 Post contains images MaverickM11 : MGM Grand Air could have taught them that, or Midwest Express, or Legend, or Eos, or Maxjet, or any number of other failed carriers. I think everyone
39 EA CO AS : And yet, in today's climate, they should be doing far, far better - yet they're not. I don't wish the people of VX ill - I have friends who work ther
40 aviators99 : It's usually union workers calling for the end of a non-union business.
41 bobloblaw : Their breakeven LF must be over 100%
42 FlyPNS1 : The legacy carriers of the past 30 years are certainly evidence of this. Fuel prices were not plummeting in the 1st quarter which is the time frame o
43 HiFlyerAS : I'll admit it...I'm one of the people questioning VX's business plan. I've been in the airline industry for over thirty years and I belong to a union
44 jfklganyc : "It's really odd isn't it? Not sure why anyone without an agenda would be against an airline bucking the trend and trying to innovate a better flying
45 MaverickM11 : Well that's what happens when you throw carriers protected by decades of regulated costs and revenue into no-holds-barred competition. Were they able
46 LAXintl : Sure, that is the idea, but since is there a rule one must do so in X amount of time ? Look at other companies - power house Apple lost money and was
47 Post contains images phxa340 : VX is hardly product dumping. They don't have enough capacity to dramatically influence prices at this time. Long term viability in the airline indus
48 MaverickM11 : Arguably the same thing could be said for the big bad legacy carriers, no?
49 Post contains images phxa340 : Yes and the legacy carriers have been and will be around for quite some time .... possibly like VX one day
50 luv2fly : At some point the well will run dry.
51 avek00 : Indeed. Even the most "bleeding heart" of rich investors want some return on investment, or at least a reasonable prospect of achieving such. Years l
52 avek00 : I don't hate VX -- the airline simply serves no purpose within US commercial aviation except flying around lots of people at price points which don't
53 southwest737500 : Tell me how they serve no purpose.[Edited 2012-07-05 09:54:55]
54 avek00 : If you looked at the numbers, you would see that none of this is true.
55 FlyPNS1 : This could be said of virtually every carrier at some point in the past.[Edited 2012-07-06 11:10:38 by srbmod]
56 milemaster : It's very heartwarming reading about all the people concerned about private investors not profiting from VX yet. Please don't forget to worry about th
57 LAXintl : If you said you hated VX, I’d understand, but to say they don’t provide any purpose is a bit of a folly. Like anyone – from Spirit to Emirates t
58 MaverickM11 : VX could learn a lot from AA! Even though VX is run by plenty of ex AA people... -3% operating margin, vs -18% for VX
59 WarmNuts : It would be itneresting to know what percentage of that 5% increase in CASM is attributable to the aforementioned investment in growth. Rolling out a
60 EA CO AS : You mean companies with completely new products - not commodities - that end-users or advertisers are willing to pay a premium for? Y'know, completel
61 Post contains images lightsaber : I consider UA's results dismal. I'm trying to get my mind around VS's. This is too far in their establishment for that level of results. I'm not sayi
62 XT6Wagon : and profitablity is the only road to paying off the massive foreign debts they aquired in their days of more than 50% foreign ownership. So for all t
63 ROSWELL41 : I wish VX the best. I have many friends employed there. They are top quality people and deserve great stable careers. VX, however, reminds me a lot of
64 ikramerica : See, this is what some forget here. Despite all that has happened, VX can't turn a profit and their business model shows that 100% LF wouldn't make a
65 SFOA380 : Reading all of this is utterly perplexing to me. You all act like it's YOUR money being wasted here... If our domestic legacy carriers were any good,
66 Post contains links and images milemaster :
67 usxguy : Um.. their NET margin is -28%. How on *earth* is that close to a profit?!?! I'd love to see Virgin stick around, but man, these are some bad numbers.
68 DeltaL1011man : So well that they are losing money hand over fist. Agreed. VX does have a great product, I have only been on them a hand full of times but a good pro
69 jblua320 : This is a very true statement - and I think hits the nail on the head. We've been, for the most part, consistently profitable at JetBlue, but with a
70 Post contains images SuperDash : Survey Says! 95.3% to break even 104.8% to make a 10% fully allocated margin
71 jamake1 : And this from Holly Hegeman's Plane Buzz blog: "And oh, then there were the first quarter earnings that Virgin America issued on Tuesday afternoon. Ye
72 MaverickM11 : What do you even do at this point? Absent a major carrier going CH7 I don't see any upside to VX' model at all.
73 phxa340 : VX is mostly owned by US entities with American investors. Only 2 board members are from the Virgin Group. This law is archaic anyways. VX brings a gr
74 jfklganyc : " VX is mostly owned by US entities with American investors. Only 2 board members are from the Virgin Group. This law is archaic anyways. " It is not
75 FlyPNS1 : So I guess we shouldn't be allowed to buy foreign cars? Better tell the U.S. airlines to stop flying A320's on domestic routes since those aren't mad
76 OOer : Sooner or later VX is going to shut down unless they are able to turn things around. The funny thing is that they have some of the lowest labor costs
77 Post contains images lightsaber : Ouch. Thank you for numbers in what is... not being a numbers driven thread. VX is too mature to keep operating at -18% margin. For the sad fact is:
78 luv2fly : For one the premium cabin is very small and if it was generating revenue they would increase it.
79 aviators99 : Apparently not. I agree that it's very small, and I would like for it to be bigger (so long as it is not at the expense of seat comfort and service).
80 poLOT : The big problem is that it takes up a lot of space, and while the product is excellent for transcons it can be overkill for shorter routes. I see the
81 Post contains images yeelep : That's brilliant. How about live streaming video of these young women at select gates on the VX website. Right beside the book now button.
82 phxa340 : Yup , by stifling innovation. Imagine where Ford, GM, and Chrysler would be if Toyota, Honda etc didn't raise the bar of quality and efficiency. If S
83 Post contains images lightsaber : It might be the best, but the revenue isn't there. I'll buy 1st, if it is cheap enough. With a dating service tie in? It is also to have a large pool
84 EricR : The interesting thing about these laws is that they were enacted during a time when wars required a significantly greater number of troops than they
85 HiFlyerAS : Let's say we get rid of the majority U.S. rule. Carlos Slim or some other rich foreign dude decides to buy AA out of bankruptcy....abrogates all the l
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