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LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban  
User currently offlinebavair From Germany, joined Jul 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11577 times:

I haven't seen this posted anywhere and its pretty fresh of the press:

Lufthansa passage executive Kay Kratky confirmed that Lufthansa will be moving the flight to CPT from FRA to MUC due to the strict nightban at FRA. The flight will be moved for the coming winterflightplan starting in October.
He also said that if the nightban in Frankfurt is not handled more elastically in the future, the late evening/early morning banks will "completely dry out" in Frankfurt.

Article on airliners.de and focus.de (both in German only, sorry).

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8596 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11328 times:
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Do we take it this means LH will relocate some A380's to MUC or will they downgrade the flight to a 346?


111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineimag From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2007, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11295 times:

Here's an article in English.

http://www.news24.com/Travel/Flights...ancels-Cape-Town-flight-20120704-2

At least Cape Town is not loosing the flight like the SA flight to LHR.

[Edited 2012-07-04 03:03:36]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11209 times:

Poltics has to act now. They have to change the air traffic laws to make night operations possible at large hubs.

This situation cannot go on like that.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8596 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11207 times:
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My bad, CPT is not and A380, got myself mixed up with JNB!

More coffee needed!



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10858 times:

My first flight ever was to Frankfurt, so that airport has a great big place in my heart... This said, I believe that the limitations on this airport's growth, inability to add more runways, space, and now political influences through an unjustified night ban, have all contributed to my conclusion that Frankfurt's time may be up!... The likes of Charles de Gaulle and Schipol have no problems with adding runways and terminals allowing these airports to support their respective cities' expanding economies. Yes, Heathrow may have bigger problems than FRA to deal with expansion, but London also has Gatwick, Stanstead, Lutton, and City airports to support the London economy... and Hahn is not a justifiable option.

Considering the location and economics of Munich and its airport, I think it would be wise for LH to consider Munich as their future main hub by transferring the bulk of their operations into this airport.. If only to teach Frankfurt politicians a lesson... As Frankfurt remains a major economic and financial European centre, a presence should definitely be maintained there serving main International hubs with a fleet of A380s to the likes of Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, LAX, NYC, and the major cities around Europe and the rest of the World, but the bulk of their operations should relocate to Munich where they know they can easily expand the terminals, runways, and operations without restrictions of space and time...

Berlin should also be brought into the equation as they consider a northern hub as they dilute away their Frankfurt operations.

I know I may be ranting nonsense, and believe me that I'm as environmentally sensitive as most people.... But, it really gets to me how people will move close to an airport, then complain of the noise... IT'S AN AIRPORT!!! BIG NOISY PLANES ARE THERE!!! YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?

Thanks for reading me.... Cheers to all!


User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10554 times:

I believe too that the night ban should be handled more sensible. Also I believe that neighbors of the airport have a right to sleep.

Let's keep in mind that the airport has extended in last years by a big margin and will continue to grow:
- The NW runway is in operation (and the nightban was part of the deal to get it approved)
- The first part of the extension of T1 just went into operation
- T3 construction is under way

So it remains the problem of the night ban. Moving one or two flights to another hub will help easing the situation. Other departing routes might help as well. Quieter planes will certainly help too. There is a lot of more that can be done and I remain hopeful that soon the situation will be better. For pax and neighbors!


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10354 times:

In the various FRA curfew threads people kept asking for examples of flights or passengers moving away from FRA due to the high risk of missing connections with the inflexible night ban. Well, here's one. I would not be surprised to see more follow, but only as far as MUC's limited capacity can take it.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 5):
I think it would be wise for LH to consider Munich as their future main hub by transferring the bulk of their operations into this airport

Nope, can't do that because the 3rd runway at MUC has been voted down recently in a city referendum:

Munich Citizens Decide About Third Runway (by A342 Jun 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And with MUC being close to capacity at peak times already, LH does not have the option to shift any large amount of flights to MUC. Their hands are tied at both their home hubs.


User currently offlinedazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10318 times:

I don't know where the problem is. A single destination is moved from one hub to the other, FRA does not even lose the destination because DE is adding two weekly flights and there's quite a gap in MUC after AB gave up CPT a year ago despite high loads. Looks like a decision that's been driven by a few factors, the night ban being only one of them.

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10306 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
examples of flights or passengers moving away from FRA due to the high risk of missing connections with the inflexible night ban.

As a matter of fact, one of the OP's links gives some numbers: since october, 120 take-offs rejected, 14000 pax affected, of which 10000 from LH. That's quite a few hotel nights to pay.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10234 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):
As a matter of fact, one of the OP's links gives some numbers: since october, 120 take-offs rejected, 14000 pax affected, of which 10000 from LH. That's quite a few hotel nights to pay.

Ouch.    Sometimes, I wonder who in the world would even know Frankfurt if it wasn't for the airport - a couple of bankers perhaps, but many of those skyscrapers wouldn't be there either without the airport.

Anyway, anti-aviation opinions and policies are currently en vogue. Once they're back out of fashion, we may be able to return to a more sensible use of our multi-billion Euro infrastructure.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 8):
I don't know where the problem is. A s

I tell you, if the guillotine at 23h00 is not reversed to common practise worldwide, meaning the days tally is worked up until the last flight is out, the evening and early morning banks will be dryed up. It 's more than just one flight.....

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 6):
I believe too that the night ban should be handled more sensible. Also I believe that neighbors of the airport have a right to slee

OK, let's cut road and rail traffic especially those noisy bikes at night.

Seriously, the night curfew was never discussed to the end in the mediation. That's one point. The planning contaned the specification was "no planned flights after 23h00 till 05h00 am". Now, they are even holding flights planned before, whereby, the block times of the long distance flights are 22h15 last one.
Sending back flights at 23h01 to the gate is not part of the initial agreement



Also, the NIMBYs take both hands when the small finger is stretched out.

Let's loook at some facts:

When the Kassel court cut out the 17 night ops between 23 and 5 which were in the planning application and with which the present government won the state election, there were 50 planned night ops on a yearly average.

In words, down from 50 to 17 was not even OKd


These 50 did not even include delaqyed incoming flights which could land until 1 am, now , a few are allowed until midnight.


The night postal hub with about 25 flights was given upo in the 90s or early 2000

the LH night european freighter hub was transferred to CGN in 1995 and is now part of the LEJ DHL hub

LH freighter intercont was reduced and was agreed to reduce to 17 ops

and, finally., US Air Force Rhein Main AB closed in 2005, they could fly anytime day and night and did not need to apply, with C141, C5s and whatever they had. . During the Kosovo war the 707 tanker fleet stationed here, original and re-engined performed hundreds of flights, usually during the night.

It's silent already, but FRA is not a Spa, it is not Bad (Spa) Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a bustling city and should stay that way.

What is happening right now is not a good development for a world class hub in competition with CDG, AMS; not speaking of the Gulf hubs which have no restriction whatsoever..



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9782 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 10):
Sometimes, I wonder who in the world would even know Frankfurt if it wasn't for the airport - a couple of bankers perhaps, but many of those skyscrapers wouldn't be there either without the airport.

   Plus there are way too many hubs in the EU; some of them will disappear. It's certainly within the rights of the local community to have some say over their airport, but as with anything else, if you make the airport impossible to use through regulation or costs, the traffic will move elsewhere.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9191 times:

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 6):
I believe too that the night ban should be handled more sensible. Also I believe that neighbors of the airport have a right to sleep.

The neighbours should realize the when you live near an international airport you have to put up with the noise. This is similar to living near a school, you have to put up with certain issues like driving down your road and not being able to get into your own driveway because of one person who insists that her van be parked on the corner and blocking the road. At FRA, how old are the homes in the vicinity of the airport?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMUCramp From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8951 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Nope, can't do that because the 3rd runway at MUC has been voted down recently in a city referendum:


Well, there is lots of other reasons why FRA is LH´s no1 hub and MUC being 2nd. The third rwy is just one tiny bit of it. No doubt about capacity probs in MUC, but for sure not at the time of the day MUC-CPT-MUC will depart/arrive.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8918 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
It's silent already, but FRA is not a Spa, it is not Bad (Spa) Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a bustling city and should stay that way.

Nicely said, but I'm afraid you have put your finger bang on one of the biggest political mistakes: the new runway and new approach/departure routes annoyed the wrong people (article in German). Nobody really cared whether or not the scruffy paupers in Mörfelden and Kelsterbach had to suffer from noise - and those towns really do get affected, they have been for decades. But once the lickle princes and prime donne in the Taunus and elsewhere had to put up with some of the noise that their beloved high-income, high-mobility lifestyle causes, all hell broke loose and the CDU realised that, for the first time, the noise was annoying their voters.

Hell hath no fury like a German Spießbürger whose peace and calm got disturbed...

[Edited 2012-07-04 08:28:14]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMUCramp From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8889 times:

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 1):
Do we take it this means LH will relocate some A380's to MUC or will they downgrade the flight to a 346?

According to LHs recent press release it will be an A343

http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-...ive/2012/july/04/article/2184.html


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8449 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
scruffy paupers in Mörfelden and Kelsterbach had to suffer from noise

Fact is that, Moerfelden not anyhow, but even Kelsterbach does not hear a fart of a sound from the landings on the new runway. You can see the planes coming in and there's no sound. Except the industrial area around "Im Taubengrund / Gruener Weg" where some people live but the sound from the trucks and forklifts overshadows the landing aircraft. My old office where I worked the eraly 80s I would love to have right now, spotters paradisie   Since I make my business over the phone I would look out of the window the whole day.

What can be heard in residential Kelsterbeach are the take offs from the center runway, that's it.

I live in the Taunus myself, I get sometimes TABUM departures straight over my house, for an hour or so, mostly around 8 to 9 pm. You hear that if you want to hear it. You get angry oif you want to get angry, people are punishing themselves that way.

Besides that, even the CDU voters who oppose that are aminority. But OK, I am in the board of the Mittelstandsvereinigung and we simply don't talk the subject because ONE guy starts screaming straight away. No normal conversation possible.

Much ado about nothing.

If the day is long "Spiegel" Magazine produces a lot of BS,

Elections are won in all of Hesse and in the north of FRA it is already a non-issue.

Back to Kelsterbach, I sometimes, when in the area, park for 20 minutes in taubengrund, car windows open, you see them coming in and in total, at a height pof about 60 metres, they whooosh 5 to 10 seconds and that's it. Same in Sachsenhausen at the Schweizer Strassenfest 2 weeks ago, not a single aircraft could be heard.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8062 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
You hear that if you want to hear it. You get angry if you want to get angry

Maybe the anti-aviation people got carried away by the wave of protests against Stuttgart 21... failing to realise that the expansion of FRA is by no means a white elephant like that train station.

As for listening hard to get annoyed, well, I suppose even I could do that and file a complaint about night flights at CGN. Some of them are barely audible where I live, the horror! I would of course have to find a moment when the aircraft noise isn't drowned out by cars, the tram or my own footsteps, but that is of course nothing a good Wutbürger won't do for his worthy cause...

Anyway, shame I didn't get to snap a photo of the Ju-52 that flew right over my building this afternoon.   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
If the day is long "Spiegel" Magazine produces a lot of BS,

...but it's still ten times better than the hogwash posted in their forums, not limited to aviation issues.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Besides that, even the CDU voters who oppose that are a minority.

However, a minority can easily cost a party an election if its members stay home on election day.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinespeedygonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7868 times:

I think the nightban is overly restrictive, but I haven't got the least bit of sympathy for Fraport and Lufthansa. The nightban was part of the deal allowing the construction of fourth runway, and then they try to weasel out of the nightban after the opening of the runway.


Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7850 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
Anyway, shame I didn't get to snap a photo of the Ju-52 that flew right over my building this afternoon.

I heard and saw the old lady last week over Hofheim, biut she's a bit old now, I loved the sound before hush kitting much more.

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
However, a minority can easily cost a party an election if its members stay home on election day.

The have a good campaign manager in favor for them, the new FRA mayor. This moron wants the curfew extended from 22h00 to 06h00 am. I suggest that a 2 hour siesta from noon to 2 pm should come in handy anbd we install a petting zoo in each terminal as well. And then we all move to Leipzig.

Leipzig and FRA have been like twins over the centuries, fair, train station, and more, now it moves back .



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

What about up-gauging regional flights to free up some slots?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
It's silent already, but FRA is not a Spa, it is not Bad (Spa) Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a bustling city and should stay that way.

  

I can always count on you to make me laugh, PanHAM.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6156 times:
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Quoting MUCramp (Reply 14):
Well, there is lots of other reasons why FRA is LH´s no1 hub and MUC being 2nd. The third rwy is just one tiny bit of it. No doubt about capacity probs in MUC, but for sure not at the time of the day MUC-CPT-MUC will depart/arrive.

Everybody's talking about the third runway. I thought Frankfurt would have four now. Which one is number three?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6085 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 21):
I can always count on you to make me laugh, PanHAM.

My pleasure, always at your service, LOWS

@ MUCramp

MUC - has 2 runways, trying to get a third one. My bet at ladborkes will be, yes, they get No. 3

FRA- has four now, of which 2 are parallel and used to be for take offs and landing, the third one is diagonal (18) and for take offs only.

To complement that, we now have a fourth one which is also diagonal parallel to the original 2 but for landings only.

Now, for operations, the R and L runways are used for landings, the C and the 18 for take offs.

Thenm we have a fifth runway as well, which is the IUCE rail line and station.

Alles klar?



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineJimJupiter From Germany, joined Sep 2011, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 22):

Everybody's talking about the third runway. I thought Frankfurt would have four now. Which one is number three?

The third runway in MUC, not in FRA.



One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
25 MUCramp : You're right. FRA has four (at least one being only used for take-offs). Just to specity a bit more: two of them are as close to each other as they a
26 PanHAM : Yes, 25 L, C and R and 07R C and L are the three parallels, Simoultaneous landings can be performed on the L and R runway, the C runway and on the 18
27 sweair : Wasn't there talk of a curfew for CDG as well?
28 Senchingo : My personal guess is LH just trying to apply pressure to Fraport by taking a first step as a warning shot. FRA's very strict regulations about curfew
29 Post contains links and images Semaex : Nothing really to explain. If my memory serves me right, by ICAO definition, if the runways are less than 760m apart, they cannot be considered as in
30 Post contains images cmf : They did act. That is why we have the situation we have now. We have been told over and over that aviation's 2% share of global CO2 is so low it does
31 kiwirob : Hasn't runway 4 been opened recently and terminal 3 is due to start construction next year?
32 PanHAM : yes, that is so. Actually, the work on T3 has already been started. The major problem is that all these investment are idle 25% of the day.
33 LJ : I doubt AMS belongs in your list as getting night slots at AMS is currently virtually impossible (and AMS consider night from 23:00 till 06:00). It's
34 PanHAM : read the sentence with the semicolon please. ; not speaking of the Gulf hubs........ that does not mrean that CDG and AMS have the same unlimited nig
35 sweair : Is it mostly mega hubs that have curfews?
36 r2rho : It's a bit more complex than that, there were a number of contradicting agreements and false promises, all sprinkled with a good deal of politics. On
37 PanHAM : ...and to make it more complicated, the Federal Government, this or a future one can, at any time, change the law (Luftverkehrsgesetz) and allow night
38 LOWS : How can the EU have jurisdiction?
39 PanHAM : They have jurisdiction over almost everything in the EU. The EU commission / parliament can instruct the national governments to adapt their laws to t
40 LOWS : I assumed it would be related, but the statute would have to be very carefully constructed. The possible (absurd) extension of such a statute would b
41 PanHAM : I doubt that they can do that. Not even the State of Hesse could order a city to build anything. Communes have a right of selfdetermination. They - me
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