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Aer Lingus In Bid To Enter UK Domestic Market(LHR)  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27000 posts, RR: 57
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10012 times:

Reports from the media that Aer Lingus are intending to enter the UK Domestic market from LHR .

Aer Lingus already operate domestic flights between BFS-LHR but this would be a new venture for the airline. They would be up against BA so I wonder how they would cope on the route. Maybe they would team up with BA and offer codeshares so BA could cut their own metal out of LHR?

Will be interesting to see how it pans out .

Link to story here :

Aer Lingus to bid for UK slots at Heathrow

Irish flag carrier, Aer Lingus, is considering an expansion into domestic flights in Britain.
Aer Lingus is considering an expansion into domestic flights in Britain in a clear signal to Ryanair that it is pursuing its own growth strategy and has no intention of submitting to a takeover.
The Irish flag carrier is lining up a bid for some of the 12 Heathrow take-off and landing-slots available after the acquisition of bmi by British Airways (Other OTC: BABWF.PK - news) in March.
Aer Lingus intends to offer flights between Edinburgh and Heathrow. Applications are due next month.

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/aer...lingus-bid-uk-slots-205607639.html

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDublinspotter From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2011, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9971 times:

Hi

Very interesting indeed

Great news for EI! I do hope it works out for them but will they cope with BA if they do not make an agreement? Plus would they plan to use Atr's or Airbus' a/c and what about VS, they have hinted that they want the slots as well.

There is a lot of speculation about the airline at the minute, I wonder if they plan to go ahead and this in my mind seems to be a reaction towards FR's bid for them company.

Please, this is my thoughts and I do not know as much as everyone else!

Dublinspotter  



Dublinspotter :)
User currently offlineEIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 777 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9908 times:

Oh no. Not another disasterous EI venture outside of Ireland. Did the LGW experiment not teach them. EI have done very well in the last couple of years by reducing costs and continuing to improve load factors and the route network ex Ireland. But their brand awareness outside of Ireland just isnt there. Unless it is a link up with another airline (ie BA or it could even be VS though doubtful), how many English or Scottish people are going to immediately think of EI when booking a UK domestic flight.

As much as I want to see EI grow, I hope this rumour isnt true



Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9370 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 2):


Oh no. Not another disasterous EI venture outside of Ireland. Did the LGW experiment not teach them. EI have done very well in the last couple of years by reducing costs and continuing to improve load factors and the route network ex Ireland. But their brand awareness outside of Ireland just isnt there. Unless it is a link up with another airline (ie BA or it could even be VS though doubtful), how many English or Scottish people are going to immediately think of EI when booking a UK domestic flight.

But they mention BFS-LHR. (Northern) Ireland to England. Of all the potential domestic routes ex-LHR this one would be in EI's backyard.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9295 times:

You'd have to ask yourself what lessons did they learn in that ill conceived LGW venture. What would make LHR any easier? Are the marketing guys on the ball this time?

Failing at LGW isn't going to be a public confidence boost.


User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9121 times:

When did their LGW-AGP flights stop?

User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8927 times:

In another article it has been mentioned that VS was about to apply for slots to start a route to Moscow... I thought SRB promised to start domestic routes out of LHR....


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

It's right up their with launching Gatwick as a base!!! BA will maintain the top end, easyJet will continue to do well on STN, LTN and LGW and BA will continue to win against WX on LCY. Quite where Aer Lingus fits into this, I don't know. BA are unlikely to code share for one so once again they are going loco against. EZY? They expect to take market share from BA, in EDI? Into fortress LHR with a brand unknown in the market. My bet is they'll be squeezed to death by Exec Club vs easyJet.

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8831 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Aer Lingus already operate domestic flights between BFS-LHR but this would be a new venture for the airline. They would be up against BA so I wonder how they would cope on the route. Maybe they would team up with BA and offer codeshares so BA could cut their own metal out of LHR?

There's something else going on behind the scenes here, I imagine.

My guess would be that EI will fly the route, and perhaps have a codeshare with Virgin Atlantic and whoever else to mitigate any risk.

I also imagine a codeshare with BA wouldn't be permitted as the slots are being assigned to compete with BA. Can a codeshare be denied? I mean, I am not sure if any applications to Government have to be made for codeshare agreements?

Quoting EIRules (Reply 2):
Did the LGW experiment not teach them.

That was under a different CEO you might recall. There is no way the current CEO would go for anything that would result in losses.

It is entirely possible that EI are thinking long term - if the EDI route doesn't work out for them commercially, I'd hazard a guess that they would be rather happily added to the portfolio for more services to Ireland.

Does anyone know if the slot award has a minimum time - for example, EDI must be served for a year, two years before the slots can be used for another route?

Quoting babybus (Reply 4):
You'd have to ask yourself what lessons did they learn in that ill conceived LGW venture. What would make LHR any easier? Are the marketing guys on the ball this time?

Aren't Aer Lingus one of the largest carriers at London Heathrow? Top 5 or something? Completely different to the Gatwick situation.

Aer Lingus were mentioning wanting these ex-BMI slots as far back as March this year, and have been mentioning wanting more Heathrow slots since at least September 2011 - by the way.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

Telegraph article says VIR are also going to bid for EDI...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...-bid-for-UK-slots-at-Heathrow.html


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8809 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
. Maybe they would team up with BA and offer codeshares so BA could cut their own metal out of LHR?

I don't think the EU comission wil allow them to team up with BA as it is BA's slots being given up to create more competition.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 6):
In another article it has been mentioned that VS was about to apply for slots to start a route to Moscow... I thought SRB promised to start domestic routes out of LHR....

Well if Aer Lingus get the domestic slots then VS won't. But if VS are granted the domestic slots then they will launch a wet leas operation initially. FYI VS have applied for all the available slots.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8762 times:

It doesn't matter EI are big at LHR, they do well in their own patch, DUB, ORK and SNN. If BA are in Belfast for real then EI's position becomes fragile on BFS-LHR as BA have little to gain on codesharing. The issue at LGW was EI pitched up and launched into new markets and failed. London to Sun is easyJet, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Ryanair and BA territory. They didn't make a dent against EZY and ran away beaten. Going into Scotland - London against very strong and well established competitors without briging something new to the market is commercial suicide. CityJet got in as they built up LCY, EZY got in on price, BA are the dominat legacy. Exactly what are EI adding? LHR connectivity? That's BA. STAR cia LHR? No. Price? No. Frequency? No. Market presence? Zilch, indeed as a strong Irish branding, counter intuitive in this market. Service? Less than BA.

This is doomed, and appears to be political with management pretending they have a growth strategy without becoming part of FR.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8731 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 8):
Aren't Aer Lingus one of the largest carriers at London Heathrow? Top 5 or something? Completely different to the Gatwick situation.

Answered my own question - http://www.independent.ie/business/i...s-slots-says-varadkar-3161581.html - Aer Lingus are the third largest holder of slots at Heathrow.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
Going into Scotland - London against very strong and well established competitors without briging something new to the market is commercial suicide.

We will see what happens! I still reckon partnering with Virgin would work.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8510 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 2):
Oh no. Not another disasterous EI venture outside of Ireland. Did the LGW experiment not teach them. EI have done very well in the last couple of years by reducing costs and continuing to improve load factors and the route network ex Ireland. But their brand awareness outside of Ireland just isnt there. Unless it is a link up with another airline (ie BA or it could even be VS though doubtful), how many English or Scottish people are going to immediately think of EI when booking a UK domestic flight.

As much as I want to see EI grow, I hope this rumour isnt true

I agree 100%. EI should concentrate on building on their success at their Belfast, ORK, DUB, SNN, WAT bases as well as at NOC and KIR.



Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineEIDL From Ireland, joined Apr 2012, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

I didn't think Aer Lingus have the fleet to operate any more services at the moment? They have one owned, elderly enough, 320 for sale and otherwise what they have is flown fairly much to capacity. No orders or options on narrowbodies either.

EI Regional don't have any spare capacity either, their recent route decisions have had to be done at the cost of another route, and even if they do order and get their 72-600s quickly I don't think they'll want to use them to Heathrow!


User currently offlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6338 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8195 times:

A very strange move it if happens, I'd actually consider it quite out of character for the current Aer Lingus management team as this is the same management that closed the LGW base, reduced flying at BFS and cut transatlantic routes to SFO and IAD while cutting other frequencies at DUB and suspending transatlantic at SNN for three months in the winter. These moves, along with the Greenfield cost cutting programme were all part of returning Aer Lingus to profitability which was successful in 2010.

Since then Aer Lingus has had a very cautious approach to growth, they have focused on connectivity at DUB with increased frequencies on European routes, selected a few new European routes like STR and ARN while the Aer Lingus Regional franchise goes from strength to strength on Ireland-UK routes. The entire strategy at Aer Lingus since 2009 has been connecting Ireland with the World and focusing on yield, and routes that also provide inbound tourism to Ireland. It just seems odd for them to suddenly be interested in launching LHR domestic routes.

How long is Aer Lingus actually required to operate the routes? It could be possible that Aer Lingus will operate the routes for a period of time before swapping the slots to Irish routes, SNN could do with another brining it to 4 daily while ORK could easily maintain 5 daily if LGW-ORK is dropped.

Quoting EIDL (Reply 14):
No orders or options on narrowbodies either.

2 A319s on the way early next year and the future Belfast base is still unknown, could stay at BFS, moved to BHD or leave Northern Ireland altogether which would free up another 2 A319s and 1 A320.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
This is doomed, and appears to be political with management pretending they have a growth strategy without becoming part of FR.

The Aer Lingus CEO actually spoke about getting more slots at LHR a year ago and then earlier this year he mentioned bidding for the slots and operating Scottish routes so this isn't exactly breaking news and doesn't seem to be a knee jerk reaction to the Ryanair bid, that's just the spin the newspapers have decided on.


User currently offlinestyles9002 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7738 times:

Interesting news if true but I don't see how Aer Lingus can make this work unless they are doing some kind of joint venture with Virgin Atlantic or other suitable partner. To go it alone sounds like it would be a disaster but perhaps someone inside the airline has a take on it to make it a success.

Beyond, that does these slots not 'belong' to Scotland the way I am often told the Aer Lingus slots at LHR 'belong' to the Irish taypayer? Surely, Aer Lingus/Irish Gov't are not the only entity to claim 'ownership' over these valuable assets. Indeed, if Scotland presses ahead with independence, I can't see how they would let EI just take the slots and redeploy them to Ireland.



It is what it is.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7722 times:

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 15):
The Aer Lingus CEO actually spoke about getting more slots at LHR a year ago and then earlier this year he mentioned bidding for the slots and operating Scottish routes so this isn't exactly breaking news and doesn't seem to be a knee jerk reaction to the Ryanair bid, that's just the spin the newspapers have decided on.

What do you see Aer Lingus bringing to the table here. A selling point if you will?

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
We will see what happens! I still reckon partnering with Virgin would work.

Why do you say this? There is no crossover or compliment to the brands. A codeshare might fill VS at LHR but BMI lost millions on LHR-GLA as codeshare revenue wasn't profitable enough. The core problem will be point to point where EI have no market presence at all. Or do you market it as Virgin and confuse people with an Aer Lingus machine at the gate? They'll have to be some pretty loss making lead fares to make any impact and the Orange monster has deep, deep pockets. BA will simply slay them on market dominance and connectivity. BMI were sold as being better than BA, even after that ceased to be true, it was a selling point. What are EI going to sell this on?


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7670 times:

I can't see the logic of this:

LHR is an expensive base to operate from and it was the changes to the structure of landing charges that prompte bmi to withdraw from LHR-GLA.

Aer Lingus doesn't have its own long-haul network to feed at LHR and even if it gains traffic feeding other carriers, the proportion of revenue it will receive is tiny (and, I understand, is only received after the customer has flown)

BA has an absolutely unrivalled frequency to LHR as well as flights to LCY/LGW and a large base of corporate contracts and the BA Executive Club frequent flyer base.

If bmi, with its heritage and Star Alliance frequent flyer base, couldn't compete in domestic then I can't see Aer Lingus doing so.

The only logic is if they want to hold onto the slots long enough to obtain grandfathering rights and then use the slots for other purposes.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7508 times:

Domestic UK routes (except BFS) would be a massive flop for EI. The same goes for any other non Ireland route they might consider out of LHR.

User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7460 times:

Let's see how long this lasts if it even gets off the ground. As covered above, EI don't have the fleet to add more domestic flights without cutting current European flights (which are profitable/feed their long haul services), BA already dominate LHR-regions and that's only profitable because it's feeding a huge network, VS doesn't have a great deal of flights to feed and there's very little O&D market between London and the Regions and you've got the trains (at least the west coast have, which by the way I've changed my opinion on and find them incredibly cheap, efficient, reliable, comfortable and more convenient than flying to London). Add to that Aer Lingus being a brand that's not the most well known in the UK (if I was to ask someone "have you heard of Aer Lingus" chances are they wouldn't know what I was on about - similarly with BD. Ask them if they've heard of BA or easyJet or Ryanair or Virgin Atlantic, they will have)

Long and short of it is, EI are a great airline from Ireland - somewhere, I doubt very much that they'll work things out for LHR - domestic. Or as LHRFlyer says, they'll operate it as a slot holder. I can see them after the period that they have to operate the flights domestically expires selling them to VS to be used as long haul (which to be honest will give VS a lot of bad press anyway).


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

Quoting Reply 16):
Beyond, that does these slots not 'belong' to Scotland the way I am often told the Aer Lingus slots at LHR 'belong' to the Irish taypayer? Surely, Aer Lingus/Irish Gov't are not the only entity to claim 'ownership' over these valuable assets.

Despite what some may try to tell you, the Irish Government or any government do not "own" Heathrow slots. There's been much talk of trying to preserve them for certain uses, but the Irish government cant really do squat about it, and quite frankly, they would not anyway. Such talk is only playing to local politics.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 18):
I can't see the logic of this:

Consider this - I would imagine that these slots hold a monetary value and that any bidder would have to pay BA a quite handsome sum to receive them. Perhaps EI are merely expressing an interest in order to push up the price of the slots, thus helping their good buddy, BA?



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinevisualapproach From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7108 times:

This traveller would rather see Virgin Atlantic Regional.  

User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

Quoting EIRules (Reply 2):
But their brand awareness outside of Ireland just isnt there.

Well, I'd say EI has huge brand awareness in the UK, even though to most of us, EI possibly means Dublin. I'd hazard a guess that they're better known here than bmi ever was.

Sorry to take this one line out of your post (and hopefully not out of context).........it threw itself at me!


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3255 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6860 times:

Quoting visualapproach (Reply 22):
This traveller would rather see Virgin Atlantic Regional.

....because you wish to see VS go bust? Regional flying and profit on the same balance sheet?


25 by738 : Seems good enough for BA,, but thats for those with genuine access to said balance sheets....
26 skipness1E : BA closed and sold off all "regional" flying when BACON was flogged off to flybe for mere buttons. If you mean feeding from the regions, well BA have
27 tonymctigue : Sounds like an absolutely bizzare strategy by EI. Their attempt at LGW failed pretty spectacurarly and BFS can at best be described as being moderatel
28 TC957 : I agree that EI should keep to serving Ireland from LHR and not medley in the LHR - Scotland market. A couple of new services to regional points in Ir
29 Richcandy : Hi I am no expert and I freely admit that, but why does EI think it can make a go of UK domestic routes out of LHR when BD could not? Just my view but
30 anstar : I know VS have applied for the Moscow route authority - apparently another UK airline has also applied... anyone know who it is? Is it Easyjet?
31 babybus : Is that not one of those rumours we hear that domestic flying makes no profit. Funny how easyjet wanted EDI and GLA from the outset. That's not a com
32 tonystan : Dont know why you think BD couldnt make it work. BD had a very very long association with domestic services from LHR and was a very successful compet
33 Post contains links GCT64 : We already discussed this possibility (LHR-Scotland on EI) in: Aer Lingus Moving From Belfast Int To Belfast City (by eire123 Jun 15 2012 in Civil Avi
34 styles9002 : Did you conduct or are you referring to a scientific poll? Who was surveyed? How was the question asked? Is Aer Lingus a more well-recognized brand i
35 skipness1E : No it's a comment that on a network carrier like BA, Air France and LH, short haul is a challenge on a legacy cost base. easyJet work their aircraft
36 tonystan : I went out and knocked on almost every household in the UK myself, I did it in one weekend dressed like a leprauchan and asked them what airline do t
37 EIRules : LOL LOL for that alone, welcome to my RR list... However on a more serious note, Im note sure if EI are such a well recognised brand outside of the I
38 mainMAN : Seriously, the words "Aer Lingus" are in the cultural vocabulary of many, many Britons. I can't claim to know how many, but believe it.
39 tonystan : LOL, Awww cheers! Hope the humours not lost elsewhere! I think in the UK the airline will certainly be known of. Not exactly the house hold name BA w
40 skipness1E : You're concatenating two slightly different issues. Most people in the UK have heard of Aer Lingus, however the key point is that the public won't be
41 styles9002 : I admire you wit and you brought a smile to my face, but you didn't really answer my question. You may claim I am pedantic but words have meanings an
42 visualapproach : No, because I'm being wildly idealistic..
43 skipness1E : This is the one where she claimed to have been repeatedly Ryanaired? I'll get me coat......
44 tonystan : Well its ok if people from beyond Ireland and the UK dont get it, because EI are only looking at said market so perfect! Im not making grand statemen
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