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Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4522 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7916 times:

I was checking out the excellent website http://www.departedflights.com and looking up operations at CLE and came across these rather "strange" uses of equipment:

UA #158 7:00am - 9:13am ORD-CLE 747
UA #576 4:00pm - 6:35pm MIA-CLE 747
UA #371 8:00am - 9:23am EWR-CLE D10
UA #71 9:40am - 10:22am PIT-CLE D10
UA #268 3:40pm - 4:17pm PIT-CLE D10
UA #580 1:50pm - 4:00pm TPA-CLE D10

And here's a NW flight thrown in as a bonus:

NW #3 9:10am - 10:30am IAD-CLE D10

* I say "strange" as compared to today.

[Edited 2012-07-08 09:47:40]

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

UA use to have somewhat of a hub in CLE. It drew it down mostly to build up IAD and CO swooped in. Short hops on widebody equipment like the flights you posted were pretty common back then, especially amongst UA and AA.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4522 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7865 times:

Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):
Short hops on widebody equipment like the flights you posted were pretty common back then, especially amongst UA and AA.

Oh, I know... the "golden age" of flying... replaced today with RJs. 


User currently offlinequiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7788 times:

I thought that NW3 routing was: EWR-PHL-CLE-ORD-ANC-TYO ? Was IAD slotted in there, as well?

That inbound 747 ORD-CLE turned to CLE-ORD-HNL as UA953, if memory serves correctly.

At one point (1973?) threre was a 747 CLE-LAX and DC10 CLE-SFO. AA also had DC-10 from BUF or ROC to CLE which continued on westward to STL and PHX (?).

I had a TON of plane spotting photos from the early to mid 1970s at CLE, but in one of my moves many years ago, I threw them out!


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7734 times:

Pre-deregulation traffic rights had a hand to play in all this as well. For example, United did not have rights to serve all the destinations they wanted to from ORD, so they served them from ORD via cities they did have the rights. This is why United had 747s and DC-10s flying ORD-CLE/PIT-MIA


FLYi
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8310 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7731 times:

Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):

UA use to have somewhat of a hub in CLE.

UA had a LARGE hub at CLE given the time. Back in the '70s, the idea of the "hub" was still new, and it wasn't until after deregulation that we started to see the buildups which led to today's fortress hubs. UA's CLE operation was formidable for the day.

As for the equipment, I don't think it's bizarre at all. MIA, ORD, PIT, and CLE were all big UA cities in the point-to-point days of regulated flying. 747s and DC-10s were the norm back then. CLE used to RON 2 747's, several DC-10s, and even more DC-8s every night.



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7729 times:

You also have to keep in mind that in those days long before deregulation UA had no route authority between ORD and Florida. They only way they could carry passengers to/from Florida (or ATL) was via CLE or PIT. Those routes were inherited from their merger with Capital Airlines in 1961. The only carriers with nonstop route authority Chicago-Florida then were DL/NW/EA.

I remember flying nonrev on UA YVR-TPA (and returning from FLL) sometime in the mid-1970s. Routing was YVR-SEA-ORD-CLE-TPA, and the same route home except starting in FLL. Connections at all points but made it without any problems, and all F class. I'm pretty sure the ORD-CLE and CLE-ORD flights were both DC-10s.


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3160 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7684 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 2):
Oh, I know... the "golden age" of flying... replaced today with RJs.

Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.

However on the other hand, in that "golden age" you wouldn't dream of finding anything like SEA-PEK, SEA-MCO, BLI-OGG, SEA-LIH, SJC-KOA, SAN-OGG, SEA-KEF, SEA-CDG, SEA-SNA or MSP-CDG or any other of the many non-stop routes that didn't exist back then.


User currently offlinenomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7477 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Yeah, that was the "golden age"

On TWA I flew JFK-ORD and LAX-SFO on a 747. MCI-STL on an L-1011


User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 5):
UA had a LARGE hub at CLE given the time.

True, in fact, here is a break-down of United's Cleveland hub from over the years:

http://www.departedflights.com/UACLEhub.html

United (the original United, pre-Continental merger) peaked at around 107 daily mainline flights a day in 1979. (It's amazing that, compared to today, there was ONLY "mainline" back then.)

Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.

I still think one of my FAVORITES, however, was the Northwest Orient DC-10 that operated Newark-Detroit-Chicago-Billings-Great Falls-Spokane-Seattle as late as 1979.

It's hard to imagine a wide-body flying into Billings, Great Falls OR Spokane today... let alone flying between those cities!


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3160 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7430 times:

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.

In the "golden age", I could not have flown non-stop from SEA-SJC or SEA-SNA to visit relatives. I would have had to do CO's SEA-PDX-OAK-SJC flight (I think that was the routing) or SEA-SFO-SNA on two different airlines, probably for prohibitive prices. Of course I could have flown to SFO or LAX and had someone drive 2 hours round trip to pick me up. Now it's easy and convenient to go where I want on AS. It's similar for other cities.

I don't dispute the days of 707s, DC-8s, interesting routings, no bag fees, inflight meals, less security hassles, and more traditional independent airlines (BF, TW, EA, PS, OC, RW, etc) was great. However, everything considered, I'll take the good new days and enjoy more non-stop cheaper flights to the places that I want to go. Could you have imagined SEA-AUS or SEA-FAT back then (both of which I've done recently for recreational purposes)?


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7400 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
I'll take the good new days and enjoy more non-stop cheaper flights to the places that I want to go.

me too. While it might be fun to think back on, taking those multi-hop trips is just a waste of time, assuming you're traveling for the sake of getting somewhere, and not for the sake of being on a plane.


User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2041 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7302 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 11):
While it might be fun to think back on, taking those multi-hop trips is just a waste of time, assuming you're traveling for the sake of getting somewhere, and not for the sake of being on a plane.

I have an old OAG from the summer of 1973 and it's true that service - even at major cities - was much, much more limited than today. Cities like AUS (which was cited by another poster as a beneficiary of post-deregulation additions) literally had flights to just a few places - DAL, HOU, SAT and maybe one or two a day to MAF and LBB.

With regard to spending all day on a plane, all I hear from my parents and those older than me is that life moved more slowly back in the 1960s and 1970s (I wasn't around myself to experience it.) My parents always say that it seemed like some time around 1992 or 1993, someone stepped on an accelerator, and society hasn't looked back since. I'm sure "time was money" for business travelers back then, too, but connections and stopovers were just a fact of life in those days. Air traffic delays, gate holds and getting trapped on the tarmac during a connection weren't the problems they are today either - your biggest threat back in the "good old days" was probably a strike by one work group or another.


User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7293 times:

fliler filler filler

[Edited 2012-07-08 14:04:39]

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8310 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
United (the original United, pre-Continental merger) peaked at around 107 daily mainline flights a day in 1979.

And 107 mainline flights a day was a pretty big deal in the '70s. Hubs just didn't exist in the same form they do now back then. 107 a day made UA at CLE far busier than Pan Am or TWA at JFK, and on par with AA at DFW. Only a few hubs (think Eastern at ATL) were significantly larger.



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User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7113 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

However nobody remembers flying with smokers. Sky high fares and terrible frequency for business travelers.

Sorry the golden age is rose colored.


User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1916 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7085 times:

There was a different mentality of the traveling public in those days. The idea of a stop enroute was no big deal because the CAB had dictated those stop on many routes years before. Airlines were give some latitiude of frequency in some cases. The NW example of service thru Montana..Perhaps some flight on some days served Butte, or wherever..the point is that in those days folks were more flexible about schedules and routes.

Also bear in mind that in the 50's some of that service may have only been 2 or 3 times per day, once or twice on Saturday and Sunday. IN those earlier days airlines took a que from the railroads..not EVERY train ran every day. And for darn sure you made a stop somewhere enroute unless is was The Braodway Limited on the PRR, or the 20th Century over on the NYC competing head to head on the CHI-NYC route. Those trains made very limited stops, example, AS I RECALL...
The Broadway From CHI stopped in Fort Wayne, Lima,O, Canton, O, Pittsburgh, Harrisburgh, Philly, Newark and Penn Sta...you get the idea.

SO the idea of a BUF-CLE-LAX , or CLE-ORD-SAN was not that unusual to the traveller of tho 1960's and most of the 70's.


User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 821 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7053 times:

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
The NW example of service thru Montana..Perhaps some flight on some days served Butte, or wherever..the point is that in those days folks were more flexible about schedules and routes.

I flew MSO-GTF-BIL-BIS-MSP (on a 727) followed by MSP-ORD (on a 747) on NW more than once. The first flight started in SEA and stopped at GEG before continuing on through Montana and North Dakota.


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3160 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7037 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

However nobody remembers flying with smokers. Sky high fares and terrible frequency for business travelers.

Sorry the golden age is rose colored.

That was kind of my point. It's better now in many ways. I forgot about the smoking part too.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
The Broadway From CHI stopped in Fort Wayne, Lima,O, Canton, O, Pittsburgh, Harrisburgh, Philly, Newark and Penn Sta...you get the idea.

The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

Chicago Union, Englewood, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Harrisburg, Paoli, Philadelphia, Newark and arrived at the dearly departed Penn Station New York.


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6971 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

Look back at your timetables from the 70's. Amtrak DID go through Crestline, Lima, and Canton , OH when train #40 was "The Broadway Limited".

I was an agent at CUS with Amtrak between 1972-74. Sometime in the later 70's Amtrak rerounted the NYC train to what was known as NYC Railroads "Water Level Route" and Lima, OH was no longer used.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19730429&item=0033

Amtrak in the early days tried to run itself like an airline. Their tickets even looked like airline ticket stock and Amtrak brought a primitive computer reservation system(ADR & ARTS-III) to the railroads who never had that before. But in the early days there were too many "old timers" left over from "the good ole' days or passenger rail traffic" who didn't believe it would ever work out.
A lot of them intentionally tried to sabotage the "new way of doing things". It took years for them all to retire.

BTW, just weeks before Lima, OH closed the agent there won the lottery and no longer had to work!


Edit: forgotten link

[Edited 2012-07-08 16:50:09]

User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1916 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6936 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

With all due respect sir.. I Grew up as a kid In Lima ..The Broadway Did go thru Lima..you are correct that it did not stop in its' hey day. IT did stop for 20+ years under AMTRAK. ..That mainline most certainly goes thru Canton, OH on its route to Pittsburgh. Please recheck the map. It was a duel track mainline in those days from Pittsburgh all teh way to Chicago. 4 track main in many spots east of Pittsburgh.

The 5 lines that went thru Lima were the PRR, The EL from Chicago, Huntington , IN, on to Marion, OH and east. The B & O from Detroit to Cincinnati, The NKP from Cleveland, Bellvue,OH on west to Muncie, Frankfort,IN and eventually St. Louis. The final waas the DT& I (controlled by Ford) and as its' intitals indicate, Detroit, Toledo and down to Ironton, OH

The NYC route you are thinking of runs thru South Bend, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo and on east to Albany & NYC. The other NKP mainline years ago was Buffalo, Cleveland, Fort Wayne, Chicago.

While techincal mistake on my part, the premise of my example in relation to the multi-stop flights from CLE and other examples listed by the OP and others remains the same. The public in the 60's and 70's in many parts of America were used to multi-stop transportation services. Thus when the CAB mandated multi stop routes it was no big deal.


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3160 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6891 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 19):
Look back at your timetables from the 70's. Amtrak DID go through Crestline, Lima, and Canton , OH when train #40 was "The Broadway Limited".
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 20):
With all due respect sir.. I Grew up as a kid In Lima ..The Broadway Did go thru Lima.

Okay, you guys all got me. I mistakenly thinking of Erie PA, which was served by a PRR branch line, and the NYC and NKP mainlines as I was thinking. I guess I got two historical locomotive manufacturing cities mixed up - Erie and Lima. I should have known where Lima was, considering that I recently read the book on the Lima Locomotive Works.

I stand corrected.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4522 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6754 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 12):
Air traffic delays, gate holds and getting trapped on the tarmac during a connection weren't the problems they are today either - your biggest threat back in the "good old days" was probably a strike by one work group or another.

Yep.

And schedules weren't padded to the point of ridiculousness like they are today.


User currently offlinecaleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6387 times:
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Say what you will, but I will still take the flying experience of the 60s and 70s any day over the present day travel experience. I liked the fact the flying was still a bit of a novelty and how people considered it a special event. Flights were catered with great food and snacks and passengers were more likely to be on their best behaviour. I miss those days immensely! Pilots were considered sky gods and very well respected. Flight attendants were more like celebrities in that they really represented the airline well and definitely looked and acted the part of an airline professional. I know that today, profits rule and everything is reduced to money. I also know that most people who fly today have no idea what I am talking about in my brief description above. Call me a dinosaur, but flying isn't what it used to be...unfortunately, in my opinion.

User currently offlinecruiseshipcrew From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 207 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6268 times:

Does anyone have any photos of the original United CLE hub? I can't find any that shows a hub picture. Thanks


facebook sn jetboy787
25 PanHAM : Between the mid 70s and late 80s I have collected numerous flights on domstic US widebody services. Not only cross continen like SFO-STL-PHL in a TW L
26 RWA380 : I have a postcard from 1963 of Cleveland airport with a United DC-8 in the background. Wasn't the DC-8 a big part of UA's CLE flying? Indeed these ro
27 quiet1 : And, then, in one feel swoop (a single schedule change), that number plummeted to less than 30 daily flights. UA had a slew of one-stop 737 flights C
28 Post contains links chrisjake : http://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6597518085/
29 ckfred : It was common, even after deregulation, for NW to run 747s and DC-10s on MSP-ORD, and I think they flew DC-10s on DTW-ORD. By the end of the 1980s, I
30 jetskipper : Another strange flight that has been discussed on the forums is the Air Canada B-747 that ran from CLE-YYZ-LHR. Fast forward to today when CLE is serv
31 chrisjake : That was actually a seasonal "scheduled charter" that ran LHR-CLE-DTW-LHR. That route was active for several summers, but served by different carrier
32 luv2fly : Are you sure this routing went from DTW to ORD? I am not sure NW had authority before deregulation to serve DTW to ORD.
33 Post contains links skycub : As I said, I was referring to 1979, which would have been in the early post-deregulation era. However, I think NW must have had DTW-ORD authorization
34 luv2fly : Never one to shy away when I wrong. I always thought that market was just AA and UA before deregulation .
35 exFWAOONW : Bad days for UA. Which schedule change are you thinking of? I don't remember through flights. I only remember spoke flights from the hubs of ORD and
36 Tan Flyr : At various times UA had thru flights from FWA to various cites..many times it was a FWA-CLE- LGA/ DCA or wherever. I distinctly rememeber UA 269 the
37 N62NA : And SYR also!
38 skycub : Looking at the November 1979 OAG, I see examples of BOTH types of flight routings mentioned above. For example: UA 233 Washington National-Cleveland-
39 exFWAOONW : Different mind-set. A flight didn't always have to pay for itself on a single take-off/landing pair. Mayble CLE couldn't fill a TPA flight in that tim
40 Post contains links skycub : If I recall correctly, didn't the incident involving an American Airlines DC-10 and its cargo door failure and decompression (what some have called a
41 milesrich : IAD was hardly slotted back in the 1970's. Until United started the hub there, the Airport Authority was practically begging airlines to schedule fli
42 BoeingGuy : In pre-deregulation days there were a lot of NO LOCAL TRAFFIC tag-ons. UA had a few interesting ones - SBA-ONT and MCI-DEN IIRC. It wasn't just the o
43 milesrich : United could not pair SBA with certain cities on the Valley run. So they operated SBA on flights from LAX and to SFO via MRY. The restriction on MKC/
44 FlyPeoria : UA did a massive schedule change on April 27, 1980. That's when a lot of the spokes to those IN and OH points out of both CLE and ORD were dumped.
45 jetpixx : My first flight in Nov. 1980 was a UA 727 from CLE-FLL...I remember they used to give kids this cool pencil box with playing cards, toys, plastic wing
46 Viscount724 : In the April 27, 1969 timetable, UA had 76 daily departures from CLE (minor weekend differences): DC-8: 3 720: 6 722: 11 721: 18 732: 24 Caravelle: 14
47 exFWAOONW : Not sure if that is the date I was thinking of. My dad had to xfer out of FWA before then.
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