poLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1893 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7527 times:
UA use to have somewhat of a hub in CLE. It drew it down mostly to build up IAD and CO swooped in. Short hops on widebody equipment like the flights you posted were pretty common back then, especially amongst UA and AA.
PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2897 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
Pre-deregulation traffic rights had a hand to play in all this as well. For example, United did not have rights to serve all the destinations they wanted to from ORD, so they served them from ORD via cities they did have the rights. This is why United had 747s and DC-10s flying ORD-CLE/PIT-MIA
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8039 posts, RR: 25 Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7360 times:
Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):
UA use to have somewhat of a hub in CLE.
UA had a LARGE hub at CLE given the time. Back in the '70s, the idea of the "hub" was still new, and it wasn't until after deregulation that we started to see the buildups which led to today's fortress hubs. UA's CLE operation was formidable for the day.
As for the equipment, I don't think it's bizarre at all. MIA, ORD, PIT, and CLE were all big UA cities in the point-to-point days of regulated flying. 747s and DC-10s were the norm back then. CLE used to RON 2 747's, several DC-10s, and even more DC-8s every night.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23242 posts, RR: 23 Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7358 times:
You also have to keep in mind that in those days long before deregulation UA had no route authority between ORD and Florida. They only way they could carry passengers to/from Florida (or ATL) was via CLE or PIT. Those routes were inherited from their merger with Capital Airlines in 1961. The only carriers with nonstop route authority Chicago-Florida then were DL/NW/EA.
I remember flying nonrev on UA YVR-TPA (and returning from FLL) sometime in the mid-1970s. Routing was YVR-SEA-ORD-CLE-TPA, and the same route home except starting in FLL. Connections at all points but made it without any problems, and all F class. I'm pretty sure the ORD-CLE and CLE-ORD flights were both DC-10s.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2765 posts, RR: 7 Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7313 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 2): Oh, I know... the "golden age" of flying... replaced today with RJs.
Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.
However on the other hand, in that "golden age" you wouldn't dream of finding anything like SEA-PEK, SEA-MCO, BLI-OGG, SEA-LIH, SJC-KOA, SAN-OGG, SEA-KEF, SEA-CDG, SEA-SNA or MSP-CDG or any other of the many non-stop routes that didn't exist back then.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2765 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7059 times:
Quoting skycub (Reply 9): Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.
In the "golden age", I could not have flown non-stop from SEA-SJC or SEA-SNA to visit relatives. I would have had to do CO's SEA-PDX-OAK-SJC flight (I think that was the routing) or SEA-SFO-SNA on two different airlines, probably for prohibitive prices. Of course I could have flown to SFO or LAX and had someone drive 2 hours round trip to pick me up. Now it's easy and convenient to go where I want on AS. It's similar for other cities.
I don't dispute the days of 707s, DC-8s, interesting routings, no bag fees, inflight meals, less security hassles, and more traditional independent airlines (BF, TW, EA, PS, OC, RW, etc) was great. However, everything considered, I'll take the good new days and enjoy more non-stop cheaper flights to the places that I want to go. Could you have imagined SEA-AUS or SEA-FAT back then (both of which I've done recently for recreational purposes)?
tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1828 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7029 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10): I'll take the good new days and enjoy more non-stop cheaper flights to the places that I want to go.
me too. While it might be fun to think back on, taking those multi-hop trips is just a waste of time, assuming you're traveling for the sake of getting somewhere, and not for the sake of being on a plane.
jsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1949 posts, RR: 16 Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6931 times:
Quoting tharanga (Reply 11): While it might be fun to think back on, taking those multi-hop trips is just a waste of time, assuming you're traveling for the sake of getting somewhere, and not for the sake of being on a plane.
I have an old OAG from the summer of 1973 and it's true that service - even at major cities - was much, much more limited than today. Cities like AUS (which was cited by another poster as a beneficiary of post-deregulation additions) literally had flights to just a few places - DAL, HOU, SAT and maybe one or two a day to MAF and LBB.
With regard to spending all day on a plane, all I hear from my parents and those older than me is that life moved more slowly back in the 1960s and 1970s (I wasn't around myself to experience it.) My parents always say that it seemed like some time around 1992 or 1993, someone stepped on an accelerator, and society hasn't looked back since. I'm sure "time was money" for business travelers back then, too, but connections and stopovers were just a fact of life in those days. Air traffic delays, gate holds and getting trapped on the tarmac during a connection weren't the problems they are today either - your biggest threat back in the "good old days" was probably a strike by one work group or another.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8039 posts, RR: 25 Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6871 times:
Quoting skycub (Reply 9): United (the original United, pre-Continental merger) peaked at around 107 daily mainline flights a day in 1979.
And 107 mainline flights a day was a pretty big deal in the '70s. Hubs just didn't exist in the same form they do now back then. 107 a day made UA at CLE far busier than Pan Am or TWA at JFK, and on par with AA at DFW. Only a few hubs (think Eastern at ATL) were significantly larger.
Tan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1882 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6714 times:
There was a different mentality of the traveling public in those days. The idea of a stop enroute was no big deal because the CAB had dictated those stop on many routes years before. Airlines were give some latitiude of frequency in some cases. The NW example of service thru Montana..Perhaps some flight on some days served Butte, or wherever..the point is that in those days folks were more flexible about schedules and routes.
Also bear in mind that in the 50's some of that service may have only been 2 or 3 times per day, once or twice on Saturday and Sunday. IN those earlier days airlines took a que from the railroads..not EVERY train ran every day. And for darn sure you made a stop somewhere enroute unless is was The Braodway Limited on the PRR, or the 20th Century over on the NYC competing head to head on the CHI-NYC route. Those trains made very limited stops, example, AS I RECALL...
The Broadway From CHI stopped in Fort Wayne, Lima,O, Canton, O, Pittsburgh, Harrisburgh, Philly, Newark and Penn Sta...you get the idea.
SO the idea of a BUF-CLE-LAX , or CLE-ORD-SAN was not that unusual to the traveller of tho 1960's and most of the 70's.
mcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 741 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6682 times:
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16): The NW example of service thru Montana..Perhaps some flight on some days served Butte, or wherever..the point is that in those days folks were more flexible about schedules and routes.
I flew MSO-GTF-BIL-BIS-MSP (on a 727) followed by MSP-ORD (on a 747) on NW more than once. The first flight started in SEA and stopped at GEG before continuing on through Montana and North Dakota.
Amtrak in the early days tried to run itself like an airline. Their tickets even looked like airline ticket stock and Amtrak brought a primitive computer reservation system(ADR & ARTS-III) to the railroads who never had that before. But in the early days there were too many "old timers" left over from "the good ole' days or passenger rail traffic" who didn't believe it would ever work out.
A lot of them intentionally tried to sabotage the "new way of doing things". It took years for them all to retire.
BTW, just weeks before Lima, OH closed the agent there won the lottery and no longer had to work!
Edit: forgotten link
[Edited 2012-07-08 16:50:09]
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
Tan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1882 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6565 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18): The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:
With all due respect sir.. I Grew up as a kid In Lima ..The Broadway Did go thru Lima..you are correct that it did not stop in its' hey day. IT did stop for 20+ years under AMTRAK. ..That mainline most certainly goes thru Canton, OH on its route to Pittsburgh. Please recheck the map. It was a duel track mainline in those days from Pittsburgh all teh way to Chicago. 4 track main in many spots east of Pittsburgh.
The 5 lines that went thru Lima were the PRR, The EL from Chicago, Huntington , IN, on to Marion, OH and east. The B & O from Detroit to Cincinnati, The NKP from Cleveland, Bellvue,OH on west to Muncie, Frankfort,IN and eventually St. Louis. The final waas the DT& I (controlled by Ford) and as its' intitals indicate, Detroit, Toledo and down to Ironton, OH
The NYC route you are thinking of runs thru South Bend, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo and on east to Albany & NYC. The other NKP mainline years ago was Buffalo, Cleveland, Fort Wayne, Chicago.
While techincal mistake on my part, the premise of my example in relation to the multi-stop flights from CLE and other examples listed by the OP and others remains the same. The public in the 60's and 70's in many parts of America were used to multi-stop transportation services. Thus when the CAB mandated multi stop routes it was no big deal.
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2765 posts, RR: 7 Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6520 times:
Quoting type-rated (Reply 19): Look back at your timetables from the 70's. Amtrak DID go through Crestline, Lima, and Canton , OH when train #40 was "The Broadway Limited".
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 20): With all due respect sir.. I Grew up as a kid In Lima ..The Broadway Did go thru Lima.
Okay, you guys all got me. I mistakenly thinking of Erie PA, which was served by a PRR branch line, and the NYC and NKP mainlines as I was thinking. I guess I got two historical locomotive manufacturing cities mixed up - Erie and Lima. I should have known where Lima was, considering that I recently read the book on the Lima Locomotive Works.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4090 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 12): Air traffic delays, gate holds and getting trapped on the tarmac during a connection weren't the problems they are today either - your biggest threat back in the "good old days" was probably a strike by one work group or another.
And schedules weren't padded to the point of ridiculousness like they are today.
caleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 342 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6016 times:
Say what you will, but I will still take the flying experience of the 60s and 70s any day over the present day travel experience. I liked the fact the flying was still a bit of a novelty and how people considered it a special event. Flights were catered with great food and snacks and passengers were more likely to be on their best behaviour. I miss those days immensely! Pilots were considered sky gods and very well respected. Flight attendants were more like celebrities in that they really represented the airline well and definitely looked and acted the part of an airline professional. I know that today, profits rule and everything is reduced to money. I also know that most people who fly today have no idea what I am talking about in my brief description above. Call me a dinosaur, but flying isn't what it used to be...unfortunately, in my opinion.