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AeroMexico Deal: 70 Airbus/Boeing Ac @ Farnborough  
User currently offlineFyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18539 times:

According to this article, AM would consider splitting the order between the two manufacturers:


Bloomberg News

Aeromexico Said to Near Deal for About 70 Boeing or Airbus Jets

By Andrea Rothman and Jose Enrique Arrioja on July 08, 2012

The carrier is considering Airbus SAS’s A320neo and some A350 wide-body jets, as well as Boeing Co. (BA) (BA)’s competing 737 Max and 787-9 Dreamliner, said one of the people, who asked not be identified because the talks are private. Boeing has the upper hand after Commercial Airplanes Chief Executive Officer Ray Conner sent a sales team to Mexico to secure the order, two of the people said.

Full history: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...bout-70-boeing-or-airbus-jets.html



Taking into account that AM is a Boeing stronghold, it would be interesting to see whether Airbus lands the order, especially for the 350 and along with Volaris, the 320 NEO would have strengthen dominance in the country.

The 70 aircraft order would be valued at about 7 billions USD. Leeham news told previously that this would be announced at Farnborough.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9503 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17917 times:

I find it interesting that an imminent order has been leaked that has a quantity of airplanes, yet no indication of what those planes would be. I’m guessing we will find out soon.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17818 times:
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It would be extremely expensive for AeroMexico to switch to Airbus. They'd be crazy to do that unless Airbus gives them a heck of a deal..

I just don't see AM getting Airbuses anytime soon


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17478 times:

Question: DL invested in AM and part of the deal is to build an MRO at MEX (I believe). Does anyone know if this MRO is to service a certain type of aircraft? Or does it not matter (whether Airbus or Boeing)?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this!

Kind Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently onlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3031 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17269 times:

Quoting Fyano773 (Thread starter):

Interesting news story and development by AM. Never expected this from them since they do small orders for airplanes.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
I just don't see AM getting Airbuses anytime soon

I agree. The only reason they would have been in 'talks' with Airbus is so AM can get a good deal from Boeing. Other airlines do it why can't they.

I predict 60 737MAX, and 10 789s to replace the 777s and few extra to open new long haul flights in Europe and Asia. Would be nice to o see the 737MAX 9 ordered by them. They need such plane to place on routes to South America and some in the USA.


User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17244 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
It would be extremely expensive for AeroMexico to switch to Airbus.

Well, the same was said on the AA case. All depend about Airbus can offer ...how big discount, assistance in pilot training and support Airbus is willing to offer AM and also the Boeing's interest to retain a customer on the AM size



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1504 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17135 times:

Doesn't AM already have 787s on order?

User currently onlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3031 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17052 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 6):
Doesn't AM already have 787s on order?

Yes they do, the 787-800, not the 900.


User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1773 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17000 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
They'd be crazy to do that unless Airbus gives them a heck of a deal..
Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 4):
The only reason they would have been in 'talks' with Airbus is so AM can get a good deal from Boeing.

It doesn't sound THAT crazy to me. By all accounts the NEO is a good product with potential to keep evolving. Delta has Airbuses and Mexico already has a talent pool versed in flying and maintaining A320s. Ex-MX pilots may even find themselves flying NEO's for AM.

Also don't forget that for most of it's history AM was a very loyal McDonnell Douglas customer. They did not fly a Boeing airplane until the 90s!


User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 16867 times:

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 4):
I agree. The only reason they would have been in 'talks' with Airbus is so AM can get a good deal from Boeing. Other airlines do it why can't they.

Where did we hear this before ? AA, easyJet, Norwegian.

All ended up ordering airbus aircraft even though they were respectively stronghold Boeing clients. I wouldn't be so sure that Boeing has this order in their bag.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16547 times:
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Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 4):
I agree. The only reason they would have been in 'talks' with Airbus is so AM can get a good deal from Boeing.

I'm with you on that one


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 6):
Doesn't AM already have 787s on order?

Yes. Per wiki, seven 787-8 are on order to "initially" replace their 6 767-200.

IMO, the 787-9 would be a perfect 77E replacement for them, seat-count wise.
A320 NEO is a strange one, unless they come in a "package" deal along with the A350.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 8):
Also don't forget that for most of it's history AM was a very loyal McDonnell Douglas customer. They did not fly a Boeing airplane until the 90s!

If they stayed loyal to McDD, they wouldn't be flying any airplanes around..

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 4):
The only reason they would have been in 'talks' with Airbus is so AM can get a good deal from Boeing.

IMO, the A350-900 and, maybe, -1000 would fit into AM's fleet nicely if they intend to increase capacity, whilst replacing current capacity with the B788 (762) and B789 (77E). That the A350 is being considered indicates, to me, that they DO want to increase capacity (makes no sense to have A358 and 788/789, given how small their fleet is).



Fly Delta Jets
User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14511 times:

Quoting Fyano773 (Thread starter):
Leeham news told previously that this would be announced at Farnborough.

According to a news report I read earlier today, a final agreement might not be reached on time for an announcement during Farnborough though. It is possible that the announcement will be made at a later date.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
I just don't see AM getting Airbuses anytime soon

I, too, feel very inclined to say this order has Boeing written all over it, but it is also true we should never say never, as stranger things have happened. I personally think the A320NEO is going to be a formidable plane, and it will be available earlier than the 737MAX. On the other hand, the A359 could be very attractive to AM as a potential 77E replacement. Again, I think the MAX and the 789 will take this order, but my point is that this contest is not over yet. AM would not be the first carrier to have a mixed Airbus/Boeing fleet. The source contacted by Bloomberg also mentioned that the order could be split, which is very interesting, so let's wait and see.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):
DL invested in AM and part of the deal is to build an MRO at MEX (I believe). Does anyone know if this MRO is to service a certain type of aircraft? Or does it not matter (whether Airbus or Boeing)?

That is a very good point TeamInTheSky. I was checking the original news release from August of 2011, and there is no mention of what types of aircraft will be serviced at the new facility. Btw, the facility will be in "Mexico", but not necessarily MEX. http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1426 My guess is that the facility will basically service 737NGs, but I could be wrong.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 4):
I predict 60 737MAX, and 10 789s to replace the 777s and few extra to open new long haul flights in Europe and Asia. Would be nice to o see the 737MAX 9 ordered by them.

Sadly, I think 10 widebodies is too much. AM already has 7 788s on order to replace their 767s on a 1-to-1 basis. AM only has 4 77Es, so I would imagine they are looking for 6-7 widebodies larger than the 788s at the most to replace those 77Es. I hope I am wrong though; I would definitely love to see AM grow its widebody fleet to more than 15 aircraft in the aggregate.

While we are on the subject, if AM ends up ordering more than just 4, that would be a signal that AM is considering adding more frequencies to profitable destinations like MAD and GRU, adding more capacity on routes currently served by 767s (and which are slated to be served with 788s), or launching new destinations (maybe AM is thinking about returning to FCO and BCN with more capable and more efficient planes).

As I said earlier, I think the widebodies that will be ordered would replace the current 4 77Es. This means these planes would be used initially to MAD, PVG and GRU. I am no expert in terms of technical specs of the 787 and A350 family, but it is my understanding that the 789 has great range (greater than the 788), so operating 789s might give AM the possibility to fly nonstop to and from NRT and PVG. I suppose the A359 is going to have capabilities more or less similar in terms of range to those of the 789, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand, the 787 is narrower than the 777, so I wonder if in terms of cargo to PVG, MAD and GRU AM would be better off ordering the A359 or waiting for the 777-800X. I would love to hear everyone's ideas.

As for the narrowbodies, I think the bulk would be 738s or A320s, but I would not be surprised to see some -900s or 21s as well. AM could sure use a bigger narrowbody with better range. I am not sure if the mix would also include the smaller -700s and 19s or not.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 8):
Delta has Airbuses and Mexico already has a talent pool versed in flying and maintaining A320s. Ex-MX pilots may even find themselves flying NEO's for AM.

Yes, I think there are many reasons -yours included- why a potential Airbus or split order is not totally out of the realm of possibilities.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineNC1844v From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14055 times:
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AeroMexico has a lot of Boeing aircraft already, Hopefully they keep it that way.

Thanks for sharing.



Steven Bates
User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13971 times:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):
seven 787-8 are on order to "initially" replace their 6 767-200.

AM has both -200ERs and -300ERs.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):
IMO, the 787-9 would be a perfect 77E replacement for them, seat-count wise.

But how about in terms of space for cargo? The 777 being wider than the 787 would mean that if these planes are meant as replacements for the 77Es, AM might have to sacrifice some cargo space, no?

Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):
That the A350 is being considered indicates, to me, that they DO want to increase capacity (makes no sense to have A358 and 788/789, given how small their fleet is).

I agree with you. The growth of the Mexican economy will continue in the 3 to 4% range over the next few years, and if structural reforms are passed, this rate could increase. In this sense, AM would do well to get more efficient planes that can seat more passengers for some of their long-haul routes.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13895 times:
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If Aeromexico gets Airbus aircraft, it will be wide-body. As mentioned above, the 787s replace the 767s,. A wie-body Airbus could replace those 777s when they come of age, but I doubt it

Quoting NC1844v (Reply 13):
AeroMexico has a lot of Boeing aircraft already, Hopefully they keep it that way.

I second that


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30584 posts, RR: 84
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13895 times:
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The A320neo will EIS earlier than the 737 MAX, but with almost 1000 more orders than the MAX, I tend to think AM could get a 737 MAX direct from Boeing before they could get an A320neo direct from Airbus.

With AM already choosing the 787-8 for their 767-200ER/-300ER replacement (where it will be a significant up-guage in both passenger and cargo capacity), the 787-9 would be a natural replacement for the 777-200ER fleet as it would offer the same number of passengers and an additional four LD3 positions for revenue cargo.

Yes, the A350-900 would allow AM to fly 27-36 more passengers, but the 787-10 would allow them to carry even more and it has the range to make MAD and GRU from MEX along with a fair bit more cargo volume.

[Edited 2012-07-09 17:15:31]

User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12920 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
the 787-9 would be a natural replacement for the 777-200ER fleet as it would offer the same number of passengers and an additional four LD3 positions for revenue cargo.

Thanks for clearing that up Stitch. I was under the impression the 77E had more cargo space than the 789. This solves my doubt. Now a question that many people have in mind - I think - is whether AM will choose an 8-abreast or 9-abreast configuration in Y for their 787s. I tend to think AM will go for 3-3-3, but whatever they do I seriously hope they will keep the generous 34 inch seat pitch. In any event, what AM will need is room for at least 277 passengers in a 2-class configuration.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineadriaticus From Mexico, joined May 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12765 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
It would be extremely expensive for AeroMexico to switch to Airbus. They'd be crazy to do that unless Airbus gives them a heck of a deal..

Just as (now agonizing) Mexicana did years ago, when it replaced the world's largest B722 fleet outside of the USA, with an Airbus/Fokker combination... Humm...
     

BTW, the B788 appears in AM's in-flight magazine Escala as part of the fleet, with a small note saying "effective 2013". Interestingly, the number of seats is not disclosed...

___Ad.



A300/18/19/20/21 B721/2 B732/3/G/8 B741/2/4 B752 B762/3/4 B772/3 DC8/9/10 MD11 TU134/154 IL62/86 An24 SA340/2000 E45/90
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30584 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12604 times:
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Quoting adriaticus (Reply 18):
BTW, the B788 appears in AM's in-flight magazine Escala as part of the fleet, with a small note saying "effective 2013". Interestingly, the number of seats is not disclosed...

Wiki says 30 J and 200 Y, but gives no reference.

Someone posted a possible seat map with 42J and 183Y.

[Edited 2012-07-09 19:00:54]

User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12437 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Someone posted a possible seat map with 42J and 183Y.

Was that the one "borrowed" from ET???

AM's 763ERs have 21 in J and 189 in Y, whereas the 77Es have 49 in J and 228 in Y. I would imagine AM will want to have at least 30-35 J seats in the 788s, but I guess we won't know for sure until AM makes an announcement.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10337 times:
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Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
As I said earlier, I think the widebodies that will be ordered would replace the current 4 77Es. This means these planes would be used initially to MAD, PVG and GRU. I am no expert in terms of technical specs of the 787 and A350 family, but it is my understanding that the 789 has great range (greater than the 788), so operating 789s might give AM the possibility to fly nonstop to and from NRT and PVG. I suppose the A359 is going to have capabilities more or less similar in terms of range to those of the 789, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand, the 787 is narrower than the 777, so I wonder if in terms of cargo to PVG, MAD and GRU AM would be better off ordering the A359 or waiting for the 777-800X. I would love to hear everyone's ideas.

As for the narrowbodies, I think the bulk would be 738s or A320s, but I would not be surprised to see some -900s or 21s as well. AM could sure use a bigger narrowbody with better range. I am not sure if the mix would also include the smaller -700s and 19s or not.

Over the years we have spoken about AM getting a few 739ERs as well as when MX was still flying, A321s. Does anyone know how well the 739ER would perform out of MEX?
Isn't AM happy with their 73Gs? They have a sizable fleet and fewer 73Hs. Doesn't the 73G operate more efficiently out of MEX over longer distances.

It's too bad AM didn't keep any of the 757s they had. They really need a decent aircraft within the 757 capabilities, where the 739ER doesn't or can't.

I hope we see them order additional 788/789s in addition to the 767s they are replacing 1-1. They need those a/c for more service to South America. It doesn't seem they have enough 767s to add service in a rapidly expanding market.

In the interim, is there a chance we might see AM pick up a few more 763ERs and have winglets installed until they are able to take delivery of any 789s they order new?


User currently onlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2624 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10165 times:

A lot of folk here are forgetting that many an airline operating an all Boeing fleet have gone and ordered Airbus in the past and present.

If the price and frills included in the package are right, you can bet your last penny that AM will order Airbus.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently onlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7014 times:

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 7):
Yes they do, the 787-800, not the 900.

They could convert these to the 900 and get the 737max in a package, but I am not sure about if they would be able to command much clout for a bargain.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6024 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 21):
Does anyone know how well the 739ER would perform out of MEX?

I don't know the particulars of operating ex- hot and high MEX, but if I am not mistaken, a 739ER has similar range capabilities as the 738.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 21):
Isn't AM happy with their 73Gs? They have a sizable fleet and fewer 73Hs. Doesn't the 73G operate more efficiently out of MEX over longer distances.

I am no expert, but I believe airlines tend to prefer the -800s to the -700s due to their cost of operation. AM indeed has more -700s than -800s, but slowly AM is getting more -800s. As a side note, AM recently ordered a few 738s with the new Boeing Sky interior and PTVs on every seat.

AM currently flies 738s to some of its farthest medium-haul destinations such as JFK and LIM. YUL is operated with 737s though.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 21):
I hope we see them order additional 788/789s in addition to the 767s they are replacing 1-1. They need those a/c for more service to South America. It doesn't seem they have enough 767s to add service in a rapidly expanding market.

Me too! I would not be opposed to see AM stay with only 7 788s and buy more 789s.

AM seriously needs to launch GIG. I am quite sure EZE could sustain more capacity too; EZE currently receives a hodge podge of 762s and 763s (and one 77E per week) for a total of 10 weekly flights or so. It'd be great to see AM fly those same 10 weekly frequencies to Argentina but with planes larger than 767s.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
25 PHX787 : I agree. Too much of a Boeing stronghold. I think some of these flights would be better with the 787, but the 788, and not the 9. I guess they'll be
26 phxa340 : AA, Easy Jet, and Norwegian taught us this doesn't mean much. With that being said, I would assume the 787-9 would be logical addition.
27 Stitch : Then again, DL, UA and WN all went with Boeing. *shrug*
28 EddieDude : I am an enthusiastic proponent of AM operating MEX-JFK with widebodies. Every now and then AM flies a 762 or 763 to JFK and I think that all-788 MEX-
29 AR385 : If AM buys MX MRO, I do not think it would be too far fetched to think that an AM order for narrowbodies could be split between Airbus and Boeing. Lon
30 phxa340 : Very true , adding to the mystery of how Aeromexico will go ! Last report says they are leaning towards Boeing as Boeing sent a sales team to Mexico
31 EddieDude : Any news on that front? As part of the agreement between DL and AM, a new maintenance facility will be built, but I guess AM could also go for a purc
32 Delimit : 2 comments: 739ERS - correct me if I am wrong. Aren't they known for requiring a lot of runway. Wouldn't MEX be a bit of a challenge for it? Airbus -
33 Post contains links EddieDude : I think AM would get 737-9MAX's, not 737-900ERs. Dunno if Boeing will address that with the MAX. Looks like Boeing is close to nabbing this order: GO
34 Post contains links Stitch : Ended up being 100 frames: 90 737-8 MAX and 10 787-9. Aeromexico Places Historic $11 Billion Order (by mffoda Jul 25 2012 in Civil Aviation)
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