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Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic  
User currently offlineCush From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 234 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22841 times:

I saw this article on MSN and was wondering what airline this was? Why would the flight crew over-react and begin to cry (even after landing) if the smoke was non-threatning? Here is a link: http://now.msn.com/now/0709-crying-air-hostess-panic

[Edited 2012-07-11 15:25:33 by srbmod]


Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22691 times:

Quoting Cush (Thread starter):
Why would the flight crew over-react and begin to cry (even after landing) if the smoke was non-threatning?

If you've never been in a situation like that, I don't think you can criticize the cabin crew for reacting a certain way. Training is one thing, having it actually happen to you (and having the possibility of things actually going wrong) is something else entirely.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMikeCT From United States of America, joined May 2008, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22482 times:

Seems like this is the flight.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=452521ed&opt=0

A Malmo Avro. The comments talk about Swedish media reporting the alleged panic.

By the way, I know that was just some "trending now" thing on MSN, but what kind of article is that? They don't state anything of value. Love the picture at the top also.


User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22435 times:

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 2):
Thats why they shouldn't be allowed to fly again. Bunch of wimps and nothing else.

Yeah, they should take it like a man!  


User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1086 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 22246 times:

Well, a correction, they are not flight crew, they are cabin crew, i thought flight crew are those in the flight deck (pilots)?


Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1423 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 21889 times:

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 2):
Thats why they shouldn't be allowed to fly again. Bunch of wimps and nothing else.

Well youre a heartless and so and so arent you?
Why shouldnt they cry? Crew are not superhuman, if we were we could demand a lot more salary!
Have you ever been in shock at an event? Did you feel the slightest bit of emotion on 911? Have you ever witnessed something that effected you regardless of whether it was serious or not? If your answer to any of those is "NO" then I can only assume you live a very sheltered life and ifyou havent then you clearly lack any sort of empathy for your common man/woman.

These things happen, no one knows how they are going to react to a situation. Iv been in some scenarios which at first seemed terrifying, I didnt cry but I was certainly struggling inside and even after the events turned to nothing I never felt right until after I was off the aircraft. But I nor any of my family or friends would consider me a wimp!

Wimps hide behind computer screens and anonymous psuedonyms and slate people online!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offline330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 21654 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Quoting dcaviation (Reply 2):
Thats why they shouldn't be allowed to fly again. Bunch of wimps and nothing else.
Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Wimps hide behind computer screens and anonymous psuedonyms and slate people online!


Bang !!

Couldn't say it better. We're only human. Except tonystan off course...

[Edited 2012-07-10 12:18:55]


Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1423 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 21586 times:

Quoting 330lover (Reply 6):
Couldn't say it better. We're only human. Except tonystan off course...

Im not Tonystan...Im BATMAN!!!!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 21585 times:

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 4):
Well, a correction, they are not flight crew, they are cabin crew, i thought flight crew are those in the flight deck (pilots)?

IDK about overseas but "flight crew" is usually just the general term for everyone (pilots/flight attendants). When being specific it's flight deck crew and cabin crew or in DL's case, as they like to say, in-flight crew.

Maybe it varies by region..



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 21319 times:

Quoting Cush (Thread starter):
Why would the flight crew over-react and begin to cry (even after landing) if the smoke was non-threatning?

Crying after an event is truly a non-issue.

To answer your question of "why", crying is a very complex human behavior that can result from any number of emotions. People will cry as a result of sorrow, fear, relief, joy, pain, etc. Science has established there is a neural connection between the lacrimal gland (makes tears) and the portions of the brain where emotions reside. This is why crying can result from any strong emotion.

n this case, it is likely the crying was unrelated to fear or some perceived weakness, as your comment could imply. I suspect it was related to relief, which is often the case after a dangerous event.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 19538 times:

Flight Attendants often are in an "in-between" spot with regard to emergencies.

They don't know as much as the pilots, so they don't have the "luxury" of knowing its going to be okay ... but, they know more than the passengers, who often are oblivious until the event is over! In other words, they know it's serious, but not how serious, and what can happen. Human nature will always imagine the worst.

Combine that with the moral obligation to maintain a brave front, and remain calm in front of the passengers, and it can be very stressful. Often the result of stress is crying.

I had an incident a few years ago where we had an engine failure on take-off out of YUL, RWY 28. We were going to YYZ, full load of passengers and two non-rev F/A's on the flight deck jump seats. It was a text book simulator exercise, where we did a large circuit and landed on 24R about 15 minutes later, with one still shut down.

The two F/A's on the flight deck jump seats kept commenting on how calmly such a serious emergency is handled. When we eventually got to the gate, they thanked us and left. Then I met with the 7 F/A's in the back. It is my airline policy that after such an emergency and after the passengers leave, the cockpit and cabin crew sit down in the J cabin and talk about it.

We wont let groomers, maintenance, sales ... anyone ... on the aircraft until we have talked. In this instance, 3 of the F/A's started crying. But ... that is why we have this talk, it is vital that they know what happened, and what could have happened and ... 99% of the time, it is far less severe than they imagined.

They said, they worried about their spouses, their kids, their mortgage payment, etc. and what would happen if they didn't make it back on the ground.

You see, we the pilots were fine, the jump-seating F/A's were fine, we knew it was going to be okay, the working F/A's do NOT know its going to be okay. Very stressful!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinebellancacf From United States of America, joined May 2011, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17120 times:

re longhauler @ 10: That's a wonderful story and, it seems to me, an excellent policy. Thanks for the good instructions on how to handle that situation the _right_ way.

User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16230 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Well youre a heartless and so and so arent you?
Why shouldnt they cry? Crew are not superhuman, if we were we could demand a lot more salary!
Have you ever been in shock at an event? Did you feel the slightest bit of emotion on 911? Have you ever witnessed something that effected you regardless of whether it was serious or not? If your answer to any of those is "NO" then I can only assume you live a very sheltered life and ifyou havent then you clearly lack any sort of empathy for your common man/woman.

These things happen, no one knows how they are going to react to a situation. Iv been in some scenarios which at first seemed terrifying, I didnt cry but I was certainly struggling inside and even after the events turned to nothing I never felt right until after I was off the aircraft. But I nor any of my family or friends would consider me a wimp!

Wimps hide behind computer screens and anonymous psuedonyms and slate people online!

Really? You are bringing 9/11 card on the table? Looking for sympathy from other members because you bring 9/11? I thought that cabin crews only job on board is to make sure that passengers are safe during emergencies. If they can't handle it why should they stay employed as FA?
Aren't they upset when people call them stewardesses or flight attendants? Now they want to be called Safety Professionals. Whats up with that? 9/11?

[Edited 2012-07-10 18:55:24]

User currently offlinefiscal From Australia, joined Oct 2009, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 15998 times:

I would only worry if the pilot started crying while on approach...

User currently offlineloalq From Switzerland, joined Jan 2007, 222 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15897 times:

I have seen a video of a LH flight bound for China where they had to shutdown one engine of an A340 and return to base. From the cockpit, you can see how calmly and professionally the situation is handled, but as the captain pick-up the mic to inform passengers about what's happening, you can imagine what goes through the passengers mind and the level of stress that it probably raises among them. For the captain it seems like just another day at the office (and it is), but for the passengers, not the same thing! But still, very interesting video to watch.


"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15492 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
If you've never been in a situation like that, I don't think you can criticize the cabin crew for reacting a certain way. Training is one thing, having it actually happen to you (and having the possibility of things actually going wrong) is something else entirely.


They are trained professionals for emergencies. They need to act like it and keep a calm and professional demeanor at least to a certain extent. I am not talking about the wing falling off here. Crying during the emergency is not the way a cabin crew should act. They are the ones after the pilots which should be the most calm and for the safety of the aircraft have to remain calm.

Quoting CM (Reply 9):
I suspect it was related to relief, which is often the case after a dangerous event.


The crying started during the incident correct? I have no problem with crying after.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
In this instance, 3 of the F/A's started crying


That is a good story and there is nothing wrong with emotion after the incident. But during the emergency. Imagine if one of you starting crying while at the controls of the airplane. Imagine what the FA's in the jumpseat would have thought. Now imagine what the typical airline passenger thinks when the flight attendant the person that is suppose to be there for safety and does many flights a day starts to cry.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Why shouldnt they cry? Crew are not superhuman, if we were we could demand a lot more salary


There is nothing wrong with showing some emotion but crying in an emergency situation for someone with training is IMO not good and depending on the situation unacceptable. Not saying fire the person but more training is needed. Would you want crying from a
Doctor at the ER?
A police officer responding to a call?
Firefighter or Paramedic trying to save a person?
Pilot in the cockpit?
Of course not, so a flight attendant in an emergency should not get much more leeway.

Again nothing wrong with showing emotion after the incident, but during. I don't see how that is 100% ok.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinesuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15439 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
You see, we the pilots were fine, the jump-seating F/A's were fine, we knew it was going to be okay, the working F/A's do NOT know its going to be okay. Very stressful!

Great story. Thanks for the insight. Also explains why sometimes being an "aviation educated flyer" can add stress as well.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 13):
I would only worry if the pilot started crying while on approach...

Good point   



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1423 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15154 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):

There is nothing wrong with showing some emotion but crying in an emergency situation for someone with training is IMO not good and depending on the situation unacceptable. Not saying fire the person but more training is needed. Would you want crying from a
Doctor at the ER?

Flymia.....Doctors are trained to deal with stressful life threatening incidents every day and they do deal with these things everyday.
Cabin crew are given the basics and trained for worst case scenarios that may never ever happen to them and affter the focus is on customer service. The training does not focus on how the individual may actually cope with an eventshould it actually happen.
Im trained to deal with hijackers, onboard fires, break up of aircraft upon landing, aviation medicine where I may be required to use a defib on someone, childbirth etc etc etc.....does it mean I actually have the confidence or even nervee to deal with any of these things? Not at all. I wont know until it actually happens on the day. I bawled my eyes out many years ago after a passenger died from a heart attack on my flight, does that make me a wimp or unprofessional?
As Iv said already, iv had some very scary situations on flights, I think I managed well but I truely crapped myself.
Just because people are trained insomething it doesnt me they are immune to the natural reflex of the human mind! My company provides "support" to staff involved in such situations and clearly this is what should happen at all other airlines.



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9406 times:

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 12):
I thought that cabin crews only job on board is to make sure that passengers are safe during emergencies.

And they did that. Nobody onboard was in danger.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 12):
If they can't handle it why should they stay employed as FA?

How does "crying" = "not handling it"? They're there to keep the passengers safe; they did that.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
Would you want crying from a
Doctor at the ER?

Absolutely. An ER doc who doesn't cry from time to time has no soul and shouldn't be in the profession.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
A police officer responding to a call?
Firefighter or Paramedic trying to save a person?

Absolutely. Crying is a physiological stress response; I don't care if they cry or not, I care if they do their job. If they deal with it by crying I don't care, as long as they deal with it.

Tom.


User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8481 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
How does "crying" = "not handling it"? They're there to keep the passengers safe; they did that.

Think of different outcome. What would they do if they had to evacuate crippled airplane? Would they abandon the ship in panic instead of helping stranded passengers? Thats what worries me.
Completely zero professionalism. Thats not what I expect from the 'trained' crew in case of emergency.


User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3588 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5743 times:

Wowwwww!!!! May be, these people should have check to see if they had any gut's, before they applied with an airline. Really, come on now, the flight crew should always have it together, in an emergency.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5686 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 17):
Cabin crew are given the basics and trained for worst case scenarios that may never ever happen to them and affter the focus is on customer service. The training does not focus on how the individual may actually cope with an eventshould it actually happen.


Pilots are given training for the worst that may never happen too. Would we be saying it would be ok for pilots to cry in a situation like this or really any situation? I certainly do not think it would be appropriate if a pilot started crying after smoke in the cabin or an engine failure. That pilot would seriously need to reconsider his job.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 17):
Im trained to deal with hijackers, onboard fires, break up of aircraft upon landing, aviation medicine where I may be required to use a defib on someone, childbirth etc etc etc.....does it mean I actually have the confidence or even nervee to deal with any of these things? Not at all


That seems like some fairly serious training. I would hope that the training given to you does give you the confidence to do thsoe things because if it does not, well then the training was useless wasn't it? Imagine a pilot saying something like that.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 19):
Think of different outcome. What would they do if they had to evacuate crippled airplane? Would they abandon the ship in panic instead of helping stranded passengers? Thats what worries me.
Completely zero professionalism. Thats not what I expect from the 'trained' crew in case of emergency.


Exactly. I do not want to know what would have happened if a serious emergency happened to this crew.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Absolutely. Crying is a physiological stress response; I don't care if they cry or not, I care if they do their job. If they deal with it by crying I don't care, as long as they deal with it.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Absolutely. An ER doc who doesn't cry from time to time has no soul and shouldn't be in the profession.


That last thing I want is a doctor crying while trying to perform an emergency surgery or a police officer with tears in his eyes while he is in a house with his gun drawn trying to save some children. Lets be real here, for trained professionals to cry during a situation in which they are trained to be is not acceptable. If you want to make the argument that flight attendants are not trained professionals fine. But I consider them trained professionals.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

So if a surgeon cuts an artery by mistake, it is ok for him to lose it and start crying in the middle of the operation?!

The fact that these guys lost it just goes to prove that they were not trained well enough and they were not professional. It has nothing to do with being human or not.

My cousin used to work for JAT Yugoslav and they had special trainings on how to keep calm in situations such as these. My friend's cousin works as a flight attendant for Finnair and she told me that they are especially instructed to keep calm in situations such as these. They also receive special training.

There is one sentence I heard so many times in so many different countries: you have no reason to worry if the crew is not worrying.
So what were these passengers supposed to think if they saw their crew cry?!


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5598 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 22):
There is one sentence I heard so many times in so many different countries: you have no reason to worry if the crew is not worrying.
So what were these passengers supposed to think if they saw their crew cry?!

I have heard this many times also and I have also shared this advice to nervous flyers. It is not a good situation for the passengers if the cabin crew starts to freak out. Agreed with everything you said. I think if these were pilots no body would think it would be ok to react like this.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
They are trained professionals for emergencies. They need to act like it and keep a calm and professional demeanor at least to a certain extent.

I agree. But training can only go so far - you don't really find out how you'd react to a certain situation until you're in it. One can only truly evaluate after the fact.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 20):
Wowwwww!!!! May be, these people should have check to see if they had any gut's, before they applied with an airline. Really, come on now, the flight crew should always have it together, in an emergency.

And you're absolutely positive that you wouldn't have done the same in the same scenario?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 4holer : So... After years of hearing flight attendants bristle at the suggestion that they are no more than airline waitstaff but instead trained professional
26 tdscanuck : There's no correlation between crying and panicking. I've seen people actually panic (the psychological condition, not the exaggerated tantrum that o
27 ju068 : Yes, but you have people who handle stress and crisis better than some others. These are the people for this kind of jobs.
28 Maverick623 : I see a lot of posts on here from people that have no flippin idea what they're talking about. Seriously... disciplining people (or even firing!) them
29 ju068 : Their job requires them to keep calm is situations such as these in order to avoid hysteria and panic among the passengers. What if there were some n
30 Maverick623 : Try that again:
31 PVG : I was on an Air China 747 flight many years ago landing at the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong. The weather changed drastically on the approach and I
32 smws : Such behavior on aircraft shouldn't be in any way accepted. Those are the people who are supposed to resolve situations of panic on aircraft, as well
33 PVG : all true. Except that firemen and policemen are generally well compensated with benefits. It's hard to attract people into such positions when you of
34 smws : Looking at statistics for the US, in 2009 firefighters got 44k per year, flight attendants 40k. That isn't a huge gap. While firefighters do get bett
35 tdscanuck : So we're going to indict an FA for panicking despite having zero evidence that they were panicking (and actually having considerable evidence that th
36 smws : At no point have I stated that the FA-s should be indicted for panicking. All I said was that there should be a response from the employer if somethi
37 ju068 : No, you are wrong, I am sorry. Smws gave a great reply: People who can not handle stress should not be doing stressful jobs, as simple as that.
38 tdscanuck : Crying is a stress handling mechanism. I'm still confused how crying has turned into, variously, "panicking", "near panicking", or "not doing their j
39 Mir : And how do you know a certain person handles this sort of stress well when you're interviewing them? -Mir
40 PVG : Fireman working in New York and most other large cities make much more than $44k a year, with OT, a NYC fireman can easily cross $100K. Guys who pick
41 ju068 : Because crying might create the perception that there is something seriously wrong with the flight. As mentioned before a lot of people tend to look
42 ju068 : Who said anything about interviews? People here mentioned special trainings where professionals can see if someone handles stress well or not.
43 smws : And there are airlines that pay considerably more than the average 40k I stated. Also, as far as I've understood, there's generally a shortage of fir
44 Post contains links smws : I'm just going to post a comment by Simon from the AVHerald link posted above: I'm extremely skeptical of this report and whether these things actuall
45 Mir : Until you're actually in a situation, you really have no idea how you'd really react to it. Training and testing can only go so far, because they lac
46 4holer : I can see the quote in the crash report: "While the pilot had performed quite well in the simulator during engine shutdown scenarios, upon the engine
47 Maverick623 : I never said I don't expect a certain level of responsibility. I am referring to the obviously immature posts that a single incident should be ground
48 dcaviation : So do grandmas flying for United and Delta. Taking one LAX-HNL round trip per month and cashing in $80K+ a year plus nice benefits. Don't compare jok
49 m11stephen : PLEASE DELETE FILLER FILLER[Edited 2012-07-12 17:40:36]
50 MikeCT : Not to stir the pot too much here, but after all this discussion, isn't it possible that it wasn't quite that extreme? Just like every accident has wi
51 smws : Of course! Especially as the most reliable source of what really happened on the plane was MSN article and a comment from AVHerald relaying what the
52 Mir : Fortunately, accident reports are factual and don't contain that sort of editorializing. -Mir
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