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Did AA Have More International Plans For SJC?  
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5637 times:

Hello,

Both times AA operated a hub in SJC (early 90's and early 00's) AA never really had much of an international network from SJC aside from YVR, NRT, TPE and CDG. Did AA ever have any plans for routes like LGW (vs. LHR due to Bermuda II agreement), KIX, NGO, HKG or even MEX and CUN? Wasn't the whole point of AA opening a west coast hub, so AA could expand internationaly to the west, or was SJC intednded to be primarily a west coast domestic hub?

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5630 times:
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CDG & TPE; I could have seen them doing a London 4x a week maybe. My uncle use to fill a month of flying doing AUS-SJC-CDG-SJC-AUS x2. How I miss the good old days.

User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5520 times:

AA B737-800 SJC-SAL 3-4 days per week, Could it work?


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User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5472 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 1):
My uncle use to fill a month of flying doing AUS-SJC-CDG-SJC-AUS x2. How I miss the good old days.

Was this as a passanger of as a flight crew member?

These were the good old days when AA had MUCH fewer problems than they do today. Lets all hope that AA can sometime return to these good days.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5458 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Thread starter):
Did AA ever have any plans for routes like LGW (vs. LHR due to Bermuda II agreement), KIX, NGO, HKG or even MEX and CUN?

Yes. AA intended to start SJC-LGW and SJC-GDL. Someone once posted the planned SJC-LGW schedule on A.net.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1614 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5288 times:
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Quoting fxramper (Reply 1):
I could have seen them doing a London 4x a week maybe.

That would have been low low yield

Quoting fxramper (Reply 1):
AA B737-800 SJC-SAL 3-4 days per week, Could it work?

Ditto...Low low yield and adds nothing to the SJC hub


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 5):
Ditto...Low low yield and adds nothing to the SJC hub

What hub?

Why couldn't SJC-LHR work now?


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2162 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Thread starter):
Wasn't the whole point of AA opening a west coast hub, so AA could expand internationaly to the west, or was SJC intednded to be primarily a west coast domestic hub?

No, I do not believe so. It is possible you may be confusing AA's experiment at SJC with Delta's experiment at PDX - the latter was MUCH more robust in terms of developing a transpacific gateway for Delta; but even that period was short lived after the 90's ended.

The SJC "hub" was more of a focus-city type operation (similar to the experiments at RDU and BNA) but never designed to become more like the current cornerstone "hubs." Frankly, from what I recall, the facilities at SJC were not all that great and I think the proximity to SFO made it challenging for AA to make the hub work.

Looking at all the data points, SJCNRT and SJCYVR were really the only two "international" routes that operated over the long-term (i.e. from the late 1980's to the early 2000s) whereas the CDG and TPE experiments were fairly brief: from 01APR01 to 30SEP02.



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User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
Looking at all the data points, SJCNRT and SJCYVR were really the only two "international" routes that operated over the long-term (i.e. from the late 1980's to the early 2000s) whereas the CDG and TPE experiments were fairly brief: from 01APR01 to 30SEP02.

SJC-CDG and SJC-TPE lasted shorter than that. I might have been 30SEP01 that they were discontinued, not 02. I thought it was October 2001 when they were discontinued. They lasted six months.

SJC-NRT started in 1991 IIRC and was discontinued in Oct. 2006.

I think the only reason AA kept SJC-YVR for several years after off-loading most SJC west coast routes to Reno Air was because they didn't transfer the international route authority to QQ.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
Frankly, from what I recall, the facilities at SJC were not all that great

Yes, but they are excellent now that Terminal B has opened. That wouldn't be an issue now.


User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):

The SJC "hub" was more of a focus-city type operation (similar to the experiments at RDU and BNA) but never designed to become more like the current cornerstone "hubs.

Actually to the contrary. AA had huge plans for SJC 1989 on and was intended to be as big as UAL at SFO or LAX (unless one counts those as focus cities). At SJC's peak they had a a few big banks of arrivals and departures that included DC-10s, MD-80s, 757s, MD-11 and lots of prop Eagle flights.

There were many reasons for the demise, obviously the dot com bust but also in that every connection SJC had from any city in the west more or less also had nonstop service on WN or AS (why fly SAN to PDX via SJC or SNA to SMF via SJC when you could go nonstop?) . Seems AA didn't really consider that.

Seeing 12 years after the bust and you have solid Silicone Valley firms like Apple, Yahoo!, Facebook and Google (that didn't exist or didn't have the travel power they do now in 2000)I wonder if indeed it would now work for AA to rebuild SJC again, skip "inter-west hub" concept and try and mirror more what UA has at SFO and offer at very least LHR and NRT.


User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Thread starter):
Did AA ever have any plans for routes like LGW (vs. LHR due to Bermuda II agreement), KIX, NGO, HKG or even MEX and CUN?
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
Yes. AA intended to start SJC-LGW and SJC-GDL. Someone once posted the planned SJC-LGW schedule on A.net.

American originally wanted to fly SJC-LGW but because Bermuda II limited the number of cities that were eligible to have flights to London, and it was determined that SJC was not coterminal to SFO, dropped their plans to launch SJC-LGW and went with CDG.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 6):
Why couldn't SJC-LHR work now?

It may be an issue of cannibalizing SFO. There absolutely is a market for an SJC-LHR flight, for O/D and connections to Europe and India. BA's 787-800 would be the perfect aircraft. The issue really comes down to whether LHR-SJC is a better use of a slot than say, LHR-ICN (or any number of other major markets).


User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5072 times:
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Quoting TWA85 (Reply 3):
Was this as a passanger of as a flight crew member?

He was hired out of college in 1978 and has been at AA the entire time driving a jet.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
. AA intended to start SJC-LGW

I said London because I recall they wanted to do Gatwick out of SJC.   


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5034 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 5):
Ditto...Low low yield and adds nothing to the SJC hub

What hub?.. SJC-SAL would be an O/D route. Salvadorians in Bay area would use it as an alternate to TA SFO-SAL.
SJC-Mexico routes are pretty much O/D too, not hub routes.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7812 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4894 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Thread starter):
Did AA Have More International Plans For SJC?  

Unless something drastic changes, no. AA has very few P2P routes left. Who knows what they'll do in restructuring... I honestly think AA dumping most their P2P routes was not smart, then again I'm not an airline exec (but then again, they're in Ch11 for some reason or another)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1614 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4869 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 12):
What hub?.. SJC-SAL would be an O/D route.

You fly routes for the value the route brings to the hub. A nonbusiness OD market with low yields adds NOTHING to the value of the SJC hub or any hub for that matter.


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
Frankly, from what I recall, the facilities at SJC were not all that great

AA was one of the first airlines into the new (at the time) terminal A. They moved over with USAir when it opened. USAir left then WN came in. The terminal facility was actually pretty nice at the time, compared to C, and where AA was, while originally temporary, wasn't bad. The WN/US area was pretty tight from the get go.

The international double wide shack was a bit of a problem, though.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 9):
Silicone Valley

Wrong silicone. Silicone Valley is in the San Fernando Valley (i.e. Burbank, Chatsworth, Encino etc) where the main export is porn.  

Silicon Valley is the South Bay Area, near SJC, centered around Sunnyvale (my hometown), Santa Clara, Mountain View etc.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 9):
Actually to the contrary. AA had huge plans for SJC 1989 on and was intended to be as big as UAL at SFO or LAX (unless one counts those as focus cities). At SJC's peak they had a a few big banks of arrivals and departures that included DC-10s, MD-80s, 757s, MD-11 and lots of prop Eagle flights.

Silicon Valley was BOOMING back then. AA was being quite ahead of the times by trying to make a hub there to compete with UA at SFO. Well, we all know who won out that battle.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Unless something drastic changes, no. AA has very few P2P routes left. Who knows what they'll do in restructuring... I honestly think AA dumping most their P2P routes was not smart, then again I'm not an airline exec (but then again, they're in Ch11 for some reason or another)

The P2P routes didn't put AA in BK. It was short sighted decisions by upper management over a long period of time that plagued employees that were used to having their cake and eating it too (not hating on them, AA at one point was an AMAZING place to work.) This was of course undermined by high costs, large cuts, and limited growth during the early/mid 2000s. Not good.

But the P2P routes in the early and mid 2000s were really quite impressive and likely made money -- primarily at RDU, SJC, AUS, FLL, LGA, and BOS (back then SJU and STL were also hubs.) I remember the RDU 2nd build up after the JI liquidation. That lasted through the late 2000s as AA even went so far as to operate AUS-RDU-LGA in 2007. Once AA stepped out of RDU, DL jumped in.

My favs were the nerd bird routes: SJC/SEA-AUS. Feels like so long ago when AA was operating them.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5174 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4444 times:

Back before CP was purchased by AC, AA's plan was to funnel people into YVR to connect with CP's Asian network. Now, it wouldn't have had the connecting opportunities of UA at SFO or NW, between its Asian departures out of MSP and SEA, but AA and CP had service to YVR for more than just the hubs. If I remember correctly, YVR's terminal map was in American Way magazine and the paper schedules.

I think SJC was more of a hub for north-south traffic, as well as connecting north-south traffic to larger cities east of the Rockies.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 16):
My favs were the nerd bird routes: SJC/SEA-AUS. Feels like so long ago when AA was operating them.

AA only flew SEA-AUS for a very short time. It does well for AS now, as is common for a lot of routes that AA dropped.

SJC-AUS did last much longer, of course. I think AA had as many as four daily flights on that route at one time, including with the 757.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4378 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):

SJC-AUS did last much longer, of course. I think AA had as many as four daily flights on that route at one time, including with the 757.

IIRC, the 757 was on AUS-SJC in 2007/2008. It lasted a while.

2008 was a real game changer for AA. The ex-TW 757s were sold off and the A300s were returned. They downsized the hell out of BOS, STL, SJU, AUS, BOS, LGA, and RDU. SJC was already a spoke by that time.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
SJC was already a spoke by that time.

Yeah, it was about ~2005 that AA really gutted SJC. That's when HNL, OGG, BOS and JFK were discontinued. LAS (one flight), NRT, SNA, SAN and AUS lasted longer but are gone now. SNA was the most recent SJC destination to be canned by AA.


User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4304 times:
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And all thats left is 2x ORD, 5 DFW and a few LAX. Sad to see. I remember sitting at the Terminal C observation deck watching AA after AA after AA. Now its WN and AS (not complaining, both are great airlines). But do miss the variety in aircraft. 737, RJ, Airbus, MD80/90; repeat...

[Edited 2012-07-11 10:29:46]


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User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2162 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
SJC-CDG and SJC-TPE lasted shorter than that. I might have been 30SEP01 that they were discontinued, not 02. I thought it was October 2001 when they were discontinued. They lasted six months.

Whoops - I think you're right. My source told me that it was 30SEP02, but that data seemed incorrect to me off the bat anyway. I frankly don't even recall ever knowing about the SJCTPE route operating at the time (and I have been following this information since the mid-90's) so it had to have been 2001, too short lived to make a lot of noise, I suppose.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
I think the only reason AA kept SJC-YVR for several years after off-loading most SJC west coast routes to Reno Air was because they didn't transfer the international route authority to QQ.

Well, there was also the relationships between AA and CP that was important. But I am seeing here that SJCYVR was actually discontinued on 29SEP96, long predating the closure of the AA hub at SJC. Or am I missing something?

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 9):
Actually to the contrary. AA had huge plans for SJC 1989 on and was intended to be as big as UAL at SFO or LAX (unless one counts those as focus cities).

Yeah, I consider LAX a focus city for UA. SFO, on the other hand, I guess depends on the scale of UA's hub at SFO (in context) back in the late 80's/early 90's, which I know nothing about. If indeed it was as robust then as it is now, then certainly you may be on to something.

However, as far as I know, AA did not ever have grandiose plans to turn SJC into a major international west coast gateway. Again, DL at PDX is the only concrete example i can think of in terms of a legacy US carrier that proceeded with plans to build up a major TPAC operation that was eventually dismantled.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Unless something drastic changes, no. AA has very few P2P routes left. Who knows what they'll do in restructuring... I honestly think AA dumping most their P2P routes was not smart, then again I'm not an airline exec (but then again, they're in Ch11 for some reason or another)

Sigh. Yes, that has sadly become reality with AA, and it seems unlikely to change soon unless they merge with another carrier. To them, it is all about chasing the higher revenue in premium markets rather than market share alone, but to me, "cornerstone strategy" sounds a lot more like "strategy of backing one into a corner" but who am I to judge?

Lots of moving parts going on at AA and I am sure we will see some drastic changes at some point or another.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
But I am seeing here that SJCYVR was actually discontinued on 29SEP96, long predating the closure of the AA hub at SJC. Or am I missing something?

That sounds about right. What I meant is that AA kept SJC-YVR themselves after they offloaded all the other west coast routes to QQ. QQ had SJC-SEA/PDX/LAX/SAN/SNA, etc but AA kept SJC-YVR. I wasn't equating that to AA's final gutting of SJC after buying QQ.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
so it had to have been 2001, too short lived to make a lot of noise, I suppose.

Actually one of my co-workers went to TPE on business then and said SJC-TPE was always full. He got on it in one direction and it was full; he got routed TPE-NRT-SJC the other because TPE-SJC was booked out in Business Class. He couldn't even get on the flight. That tells me that SJC-TPE actually was doing well.

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 21):
But do miss the variety in aircraft. 737, RJ, Airbus, MD80/90; repeat...

Don't forget the 777, 763, 762, 757 and MD-90s that AA flew for at least a short time at SJC. They did the 762 to JFK (and maybe BOS); 763 to CDG; 777 to NRT and TPE of course; plenty of 757s all over (even SJC-SNA) and some ex-QQ MD-90s for awhile.

Those were the days!


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
Yeah, it was about ~2005 that AA really gutted SJC.

Not long after that AA also gutted SFO. Back in 2005 they flew SFO-SNA/BOS/HNL and a few others.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
Yeah, I consider LAX a focus city for UA.

Technically, it's a hub. It's been so since 1999. Skywest does a ton of regional flying from LAX with United.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
plenty of 757s all over (even SJC-SNA)

When did AA fly the 757 on SJC-SNA?



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
25 Post contains images CODC10 : With somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 daily flights, I guess it would be a pretty massive focus city.
26 mogandoCI : Does AA have more international plans for SJC? Maybe they should complete 1 west coast hub before considering a 2nd one.
27 deltaflyertoo : LOL such a question shows how old these birds are and how long they've been in the fleet. So that said I can say for sure in 1990 (maybe 1989) but pe
28 BoeingGuy : 2000, at least. I had jumpseat authorization for a few weeks with AA and did that route on a 757 in December 2000.
29 Post contains links and images IrishAyes : This may have been true pre 9/11, but AA pretty much stated that the flight was bleeding cash in the weeks during the aftermath of the attacks, and t
30 tommy767 : Based on the interiors, they look like they've been around since the mid 80s but I can assure you, the oldest AA 757 is about 1 year older than UA's
31 Post contains links tommy767 : http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201p86.html This August 2001 timetable should give us a little more insight on the AA SJC presence: AUS: 1x 738, 1
32 BoeingGuy : Yes, they started it the same day they started SJC-OGG. It only lasted about six months. AA had already announced this was being discontinued (along
33 mikesairways : Oh yes of course, I was referring more to today. Yes, indeed, those were the days. MIA: 1x 738 (does anybody remember them even flying this route???)
34 Post contains images aal151heavy : I flew SJC-MIA in March 2001, but it was in a 757. The flight was very empty, pretty much everyone had their own rows. I also flew SJC-CDG-SJC in lat
35 Post contains images warden145 : AFAIK AA has permanently given up on SJC as anything other than a spoke; they're only operating flights to DFW and ORD at this point, and I highly do
36 ckfred : Before the first draw down in the early 90s, I think most of AA's flights between ORD and SJC were either DC-10s or 767s. Remember that what led to t
37 RWA380 : Remember that AA had two chances to make SJC-YVR work, well SJC in general. They had a chance when they took over OC and again after taking over QQ,
38 BoeingGuy : Yes, to the best of my recollection that is correct. AA never did like LAX-SEA, at least not post-QQ.
39 Post contains links legacyins : according to their route map,they dd. http://www.airliners.net/uf/11161/phpFdOflO.jpeg
40 jfk777 : 9/11 of 2001 put the kabash on AA's expansion at San Jose. The internet crash of the same time didn't help either.
41 BoeingGuy : That does not show that AA flew SEA-LAX non-stop. You posted the link to a route map showing SJC destinations.
42 legacyins : My appologise, I misread.
43 laca773 : Those were the days! AA did fly the 762 on SJC-BOS after they flew the M11s for quite sometime. Then the 762ERs, 757s. SNA-SJC had an evening 757 fli
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