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United Passengers Stuck In Shanghai For 3 Days  
User currently offlineflybry From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 27 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 27152 times:

Eek! This doesn't look like fun.
The mess started with a mechanical failure for these passengers headed to Newark.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...tranded_in_shanghai_passenger.html

But, United did offer this for the inconvenience:

"United acknowledged the difficult situation and refunded the cost of their tickets and offered passengers $1,000 off a future flight, according to Rahsaan Johnson, a spokesman for the airline. He added the airline found spots on other flights for 50 of Flight 87’s original 275 passengers but was unable to accommodate the rest."

151 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7508 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 27027 times:

Well, this happens daily and there are many issues that can be looked at, morally, economically and legally.
So in no particular order or importance and or priority.

1. Is the airline first responsibilty to accomodate the first delayed pax or to continue their schedule, is each flight an individual entity or something belonging to the company at large, we want everyone to pay their fair share in taxes, what about delays and travel inconvenience, is the principle the same?

2. Is this just a case of an airline being cheap and not having a spare a/c and crew ready to accomodate such an issue on a international long haul flight where their options going in are limited?

3. Is this just a case of an airline being cheap and not having sufficient local services available - whether theirs or contracted - to cater to pax in such a situation?

4. Is this a case of pax believing that the customer deserves good service and they were not willing to sit and take whatever was provided, too much expectations?

5. Does the airline really care whether these pax ever fly with them again, I ask that due to the old saying of an ounce of prevention is worth ........ or the other one where you never get a second chance to make a first impression.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26868 times:
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Interesting that UA was only able to reaccomodate 50 of the passengers. judging from that number it sounds like they reaccommodated everyone in business elite, ran out of room, and offered vouchers to everyone in coach.

In the meantime, UA 976 went tech last night, UA is fixing the plane and flying it empty to Dubai as UA 1747. they'll then turn it around and fly it back to Dulles as UA 1748 with those passengers who were supposed to be on UA 977. the delay for those passengers is a "measly" 14 hours.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8458 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 26658 times:
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With all the flights to China, Japan and other Star airlines in Asia United should have no problem getting "stuck" passengers. Its a disgrace this happened. Asiana, ANA or Air China could have helped and its sounds United didn't seel their help. Disgraceful. Where is Continental when you need the.

User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 26646 times:

Hate to tell you this......but THIS was CONTINENTAL metal. United in name only, still running subsidiary airlines. I think they did the best they could considering the circumstances. it is summer and flights are full. You can only accomodate on other airlines if there are seats available.

[Edited 2012-07-15 06:39:37]

[Edited 2012-07-15 06:41:56]

[Edited 2012-07-15 06:46:47]


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 806 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 26527 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 2):
In the meantime, UA 976 went tech last night, UA is fixing the plane and flying it empty to Dubai as UA 1747. they'll then turn it around and fly it back to Dulles as UA 1748 with those passengers who were supposed to be on UA 977. the delay for those passengers is a "measly" 14 hours.


Just like 847 EWR-EZE on Friday night was delayed over 16 hours.... The return trip was of course delayed too.

Unfortunately seems to be pretty common these days.


User currently offlinemaxamuus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25907 times:

Would be intresting to know if it was a true "mechanical failure" or just more pilots refusing to fly over "light blubs and coffee pots" due to the stalled pilot negoations.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 25764 times:

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 6):
Would be intresting to know if it was a true "mechanical failure" or just more pilots refusing to fly over "light blubs and coffee pots" due to the stalled pilot negoations.

Issue with the engine...

plane goes INOP on Wednesday...
due to parts they wee not able to get it fixed until Friday...
They were not able to leave Friday due to the crew timing out because of a boarding issue...that boarding issue was caused by the passengers refusing to go to the correct gate by the way....
flew out Saturday

Sounds like UA handled it fairly well actually:

put everyone up in a hotel/took care of other expenses
refunded everyones flight
gave out $1000 vouchers
rebooked passengers where possible

What more could they have done?



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7508 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 25613 times:

Quoting GALLEYSTEW (Reply 4):
Hate to tell you this......but THIS was CONTINENTAL metal. United in name only, still running subsidiary airlines.

Ok, so the merger did not take place, there is no single board of directors, there is no single person at the helm, there is still UA and CO management separate???

My issue is this, we are all fine saying that management and the boards should merge because its the right thing to do, it makes economic sense etc. etc. etc. Ok they did that, we do not now get to argue whether it is CO or UA metal, they are one company and if pax throw barbs it is at the one company.
Does it make the UA employees feel better saying oh it was those folks CO that screwed up? If management thinks the same it makes you wonder why the UA folks merged with those CO screw ups in the first place.
.
Unfortunately, none of that means anything to the pax who were inconvenienced, it is no comfort to them if someone says you know if it was a UA a/c and crew this would not have happened.

On the flip side, management may be encouraging such thoughts, after all, mergers in most cases are done on paper immediately to get financial benefits, the actual merging of the workforce is trivial, take US Airways, they are making profits and they still have East, West and all points inbetween.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1950 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 25535 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 7):
What more could they have done?

How about not stranded them in China for three whole days?

There's still plenty of other options available...how about sending a substitution plane? How about chartering another airline to send a substitution (it can and does happen from time to time)? How about bending over backwards to find them another airline to get them home? Only 50 out of 180+ accommodated? Pathetic! You have hubs at NRT, ICN, HKG and PEK nearby...all with large operations to and from the states.


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2083 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 25428 times:

A couple notes..

Sometimes I randomly check UA flights on the website to see how the post merger operation is going. It seems difficult. I will check on random flights from the random hubs and there are quite a few delays and some cancellations. Obviously not scientific, but just a random sample reveals some discouraging results.

A few weeks ago, a ORD-BRU and an ORD-PVG flight cancelled, and a EWR-TLV flight was delayed 8 hours.
So it is far too simplistic to say this only happens to just CO or UA metal.

Oh yes, and IAH-LOS, and LOS-IAH (cancelled the next day of course)

Sometimes flights from hell just happen. In the olden days, in the year 2000, I was on a UA ATL-DEN mainline flight. There was a weather issue, mechanical issue, and crew legality issue. It was an awful mix, the flight was not cancelled, but we took off at 1 a.m. a delay of 8 hours

[Edited 2012-07-15 09:15:31]

[Edited 2012-07-15 09:30:28]

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 25372 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 9):
How about not stranded them in China for three whole days?

While ideally planes would never go tech that's not a realistic expectation of anyone...

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 9):
There's still plenty of other options available...how about sending a substitution plane? How about chartering another airline to send a substitution (it can and does happen from time to time)? How about bending over backwards to find them another airline to get them home? Only 50 out of 180+ accommodated? Pathetic! You have hubs at NRT, ICN, HKG and PEK nearby...all with large operations to and from the states.

Well taking a look at loads right now UA is running at over 99% today (there were 7 empty seats today for example combined on all 4 flights out of PVG.) Just because you may be able to get them to NRT, ICN or another city does not mean that you would necessarily be able to get them on an outbound flight...getting 50 passengers re booked during the high season out of 275 is a decent percentage.

As for sending in a different aircraft UA actually did send in another aircraft (the plane that the passengers flew back to EWR on was not the same one that went tech.)



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8171 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 25300 times:

Quoting GALLEYSTEW (Reply 4):
Hate to tell you this......but THIS was CONTINENTAL metal. United in name only

Well I hate to ask, but what name painted on the side of the plane? What was the name printed on the safety cards, the cabin crew name tags, the check-in desk, the air traffic controller's radar blip, the ticket?



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7508 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 25218 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
Well taking a look at loads right now UA is running at over 99% today

Ahh, so a question, are those loads that high because the airline wants them that way or because of demand? If loads are that high someone is getting left as there are always overbookings and pax not showing up, last minute cancellations, etc etc. so additional capacity which may drop loads down to 80% would be a good financial move right?
Allows more flexibility, more premium seats, more economy, more seats to accomodate stranded pax versus just the elites. Overcapacity is not always a financial burden, if managed properly it can be very beneficial.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9709 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 25217 times:

I feel bad for the passengers. It would have been a very difficult process. Mechanical delays on long haul flights are very frustrating. There are few options to reaccomodate people, and it takes time to fix the problem.

Having a mechanical problem cancel a flight happens. Getting the parts to fix them can be time consuming. When the fix is not a simple swap out, sometimes maintenance does not get it done in the amount of time predicted.

One that does make it harder is that it is an international flight departing China. China is quite challenging with exit immigration requirements. The process works relatively smoothly for normal operations, but when passengers have to be sent back to hotels, immigration and customs becomes very difficult as they have to re-enter China. It's also very difficult for transit passengers. Difficulty moving people through the airport can result in delays in and out. The result is the crew timing out since on flights from China - US East Coast typically they only have about 2 hours of crew time to handle delays before timing out.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1023 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 25201 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
While ideally planes would never go tech that's not a realistic expectation of anyone...

I genuinely have a hard time believing that United couldn't find 275 seats for stranded pax over 3 days.

3 days (even 2 days) is a long, long time. I seem to be under the (possibly mistaken) impression that there is enough capacity to accomodate one 767 worth of stranded passengers between China and the US on *A carriers alone within 48 hours. And that increases manifold, if one takes into account non -*A carriers. Then theres the small matter of getting a replacement aircraft out there. Bit surprised that also took 48 hours.

Seems to me as though UA decided that keeping pax in China was cheaper than trying to pay money to other airlines to accomodate them. I don't put much value on tied credit. Does this come with an expiration date?

All in all, as anybody who has a job knows, a two day delay can have significant ramifications for employees. How many employers out there are going to believe that there was no way for the airline or pax to get people home over 48 hours on a fairly well-served route? I mean, if it was sub-Saharan Africa, it might be believable, but China? With the volume of traffic between China and the US?

Saving money at the expense of people who've spent $1000+ to fly your airline....its a risky tactic. We've all dealt with IRROPs. My worst delay was 22hrs (including a night in a hotel) on a 10 hr Europe-Asia flight in peak. 48 hrs...unbelievable. 72 hours... you can't pay me a $1000 to go back (hence my dismissal of the tied credit - many people won't be going back to UA).


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 24972 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
With all the flights to China, Japan and other Star airlines in Asia United should have no problem getting "stuck" passengers. Its a disgrace this happened. Asiana, ANA or Air China could have helped and its sounds United didn't seel their help. Disgraceful. Where is Continental when you need the.

This is one of the busiest weeks of the year for air travel. Easy to say "just put them on other carriers!", much harder to actually do. Its entirely possible that all the options they tried were full (I can't see in the article where it says that United didnt seek seats on other carriers ??, in fact, it says they found 50 seats for some of the passengers, without saying where)

Its impossible for anyone who wasnt there to know the full story, but I have a hard time believing that UA made no attampt to reaccommodate at least some of these passengers. Its not in their interest to do so - its far cheaper to reprotect them on another carrier rather than pay the accommodation, meal, transport and eventual compensation costs.

I'm not defending UA, they may well have handled the situation poorly. But it doesnt mean they just blindly sat back and waited without at least trying to get some of the passengers out of there



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 24678 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
Ahh, so a question, are those loads that high because the airline wants them that way or because of demand?

Probably both this time of the year....UA is looking for the right yield mix and at the same time it's a very busy travel period.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 15):
I genuinely have a hard time believing that United couldn't find 275 seats for stranded pax over 3 days.

I don't...not time of year. This is peak travel season....rerouting passengers is not as easy as one might think. Even using the flight that was canceled as an example 275 seats is one seat short of completely booked. (UAs J/Y 772s seat 276.)



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineWarmNuts From United States of America, joined May 2006, 116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24591 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
...getting 50 passengers re booked during the high season out of 275 is a decent percentage.

As for sending in a different aircraft UA actually did send in another aircraft (the plane that the passengers flew back to EWR on was not the same one that went tech.)

I think the question (and from a pax perspective, a valid one at that) is did United do everything they could to get them home as soon as possible given what (statistically, one would imagine) would be considered an unreasonable delay?

Furthermore, IMO, a $1,000 voucher for a future flight is insufficient given the prolonged nature of their delay... I remember when airlines would give you a $500 for volunteering to get bumped an hour or two. At the very least, include a system-wide upgrade or a comped RT ticket anywhere they fly.

Lastly, while I agree the pax are (at least partly) responsible for the final delay (as their procrastination in getting to their a/c resulted in the flight crew timing out before the flight could depart), IMO UA could have better communicated this to the pax to ensure they expedited their transfer to the appropriate gate early enough for the flight to depart. Maybe have a rep convey this before they left for the original gate?


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24593 times:

Quoting GALLEYSTEW (Reply 4):
Hate to tell you this......but THIS was CONTINENTAL metal

This was UNITED. There is no such thing as Continental anymore. It's United, United is responsible.


User currently offlineleothedog From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24355 times:

This is so typical of United Airlines. When something doesn't go right, instead of explaining exactly what is going on to the passengers effected, the gate personel do not say anything, or cannot back up what they do say. I know. I've experienced it myself first hand. That's why I avoid United at all costs if possible.


I've got things to see and people to do.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9709 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24313 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 15):

All in all, as anybody who has a job knows, a two day delay can have significant ramifications for employees. How many employers out there are going to believe that there was no way for the airline or pax to get people home over 48 hours on a fairly well-served route? I mean, if it was sub-Saharan Africa, it might be believable, but China? With the volume of traffic between China and the US?

It is quite challenging to reaccomodate passengers on other airlines for international flights. For a 24 hour delay, many airlines will not put people on other airlines at all. First off, there's no alternative nonstop service. UA can reaccomodate people on its own flights without having to individually get their approval, but with load factors so close to 100%, that is hard.

Also reaccomodating on other airlines requires a connection. That requires finding an airline with zero notice that has seats for sale on two separate flights. With loads as high as they are, that is a challenge.

UA agents are not restricted to Star Alliance airlines at all. They can put passengers on any airline that they have the reciprocal agreements with (meaning basically most airlines that are members of any alliance, but not VX or WN) UA has no problem putting people on AA or DL. In fact often it is easier. But passengers don't always want to make a connection, and sending someone on another airline is going to cause a lot of difficulty with baggage, hotel accomodations, etc as China quarantines the luggage of outgoing airplanes if the flight cancels.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1449 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24182 times:

Anyone here who's complaining how horrible this was obviously hasn't flown much. This stuff happens every once in a while when you travel a lot. Granted UA didn't handle it very well but to say you'll never fly them again is a stretch. Sh*t happens, get over it.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24184 times:

Quoting WarmNuts (Reply 18):
I think the question (and from a pax perspective, a valid one at that) is did United do everything they could to get them home as soon as possible given what (statistically, one would imagine) would be considered an unreasonable delay?

Furthermore, IMO, a $1,000 voucher for a future flight is insufficient given the prolonged nature of their delay... I remember when airlines would give you a $500 for volunteering to get bumped an hour or two. At the very least, include a system-wide upgrade or a comped RT ticket anywhere they fly.

I am not going to use the term unreasonable delay but I will say that I think its a long one. It's of course horrible that it happened but I think UA did the best that they could do under the circumstances.

A plane goes tech in PVG you are automatically going to be delayed by at least 12-24 hours simply because the crew is going to time out before repairs can be completed. I don't know precisely what was wrong with the engine but I think we can infer that it wasn't a common part that failed as they had to source parts from either UA TechOps or GE stateside (vs getting the part from UA spares in NRT or sourcing it from a local source.)

It sounds like they managed to rebook 50 passengers during the high season for air travel...how they rebooked them (UA or another carrier is not specified.)

Other passengers that could not be rebooked were given refunds, hotel rooms, food/other expenses and a $1000 voucher. That's pretty good compensation when you consider that they basically just received a free trip to China and a voucher that will cover the cost of another transpacific flight with some level of planning (with notice EWR-PVG is ~1100... short notice is around ~1850.)



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinemaxamuus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 23892 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 15):
you can't pay me a $1000 to go back (hence my dismissal of the tied credit - many people won't be going back to UA).

I wouldnt be surprised to see these vouchers poping up on Ebay any time now for that very reason.

Wasn't it within the last six months or so that UA did the very same thing in ANC to people headed to China as well ?


25 DL WIDGET HEAD : This sounds absurd. Why would the passengers who have been stranded there for 2 days and who obviously want to be on their way "refuse to go to the c
26 United1 : ....read the article. Net net allot of the passengers refused to move to the new gate and tried to block passengers traveling on another EWR bound fl
27 DL WIDGET HEAD : They should have sent a rescue flight. But as a result of not scheduling enough spares into the operation (according to McDonald) this summer, UA rol
28 RDH3E : You don't build the church for easter sunday. Buying an additional aircraft just to have spare capacity at peak time is a waste of money. What would
29 klwright69 : It has been awhile since I was awarded a voucher, but as I recall they are non transferrable, and a must be booked within a specific period of time.
30 klwright69 : During peak travel season utilization is extra high, especially with longhaul widebody planes. I do not necessarily think they are all excustomers. I
31 United1 : They did send a spare aircraft (the plane that they flew to EWR was not the same aircraft that went tech.) You of all people should know that airline
32 WROORD : Amen to that I was stuck in MSY in Feb for over 8 hours and the gate people where nowhere to be found. When they finally came to tell us that the fli
33 AWACSooner : I understand you're trying to defend your airline, but the bottom line is they screwed up big time here! Why not put them on another airline? There's
34 AWACSooner : This was indicative of UA before the merger too. In all the years I've been flying UA, customer service (on the ground) has never seemed to be a prio
35 United1 : Who says that they didn't put them on another airline....we have no info that they did or did not...the only thing that we do know is that UA managed
36 jetblast : Easier said than done. What if there were no seats left?
37 DL WIDGET HEAD : Bingo! This is a major UA screw up. It amazes me how the UA apologists on this forum actually think that UA performed well in this instance. All airl
38 AADC10 : The story emphasizes the 3 day delay and that UA was only able to accommodate 50 passengers but I believe it was 50 passengers the day of departure. P
39 Roseflyer : I don't know any airline that would have spent a spare airplane to deal with a mechanical writeup where it is believed that a spare part can fix the
40 par13del : Why jump to the extreme and assume new a/c, UA has multiple types of a/c in their fleet, adjusting capacity can also be the a/c type used and the num
41 RWA380 : When is this going to stop? CO is gone, flown into the sunset, accept it. There is no CO any more. It's sad, fine airline, fine employees, good servi
42 DL WIDGET HEAD : You offered a very valid assessment. I concur with most of your analysis. In the end, yes, I think a rescue flight would have been better. There was
43 Cubsrule : What evidence do you have that the result would have been different for AA or DL?
44 Roseflyer : True you never know if the mechanic or maintenance controller who made the call about what the problem was correct or not and return to service time
45 DL WIDGET HEAD : My comments are about UA's deteriorating, self induced operational failure(s). I'm not here to say that AA or DL or LH are far superior nor did I eve
46 DL WIDGET HEAD : It's not the Tech issue that's at fault. It's the recovery issue (or lack of recovery) that's at fault here. Bad decisions from the top down resulted
47 Roseflyer : Do you have data supporting that? I have seen data that reflects the opposite of that for maintenance events. However UA certainly was behind the pac
48 Post contains images cmf : Sorry but while I wasn't there I don't think it was caused by the passengers but rather by poor information to the passengers. That is what they shou
49 Confuscius : Seems like the passengers got shanghai'd in Shanghai!
50 NWADTWE16 : It is irrelevant in this case but i believe VX is now RULE 240 and reciprical, they invested millions to join Sabre and will show up as viable option
51 Cubsrule : . . . assuming an immediate decision to move an aircraft to PVG. But why do you make that assumption? Remember that the second delay - the crew timin
52 kl692 : My sister was stuck in ACC for 6 days thanks to DL and we had to book her another flight on KL at our own expense and you know what DL offer her? $50
53 SHAQ : And here people are complaining and saying bad things about UA. They compensated these people in such a great way! They got refunds, hotel, and a fre
54 abrelosojos : = I will have to disagree. Any airline with an interline agreement can protect on another. Most big name airlines will routinely do it on non partner
55 abrelosojos : = If I paid for a business trip and UA offered me this, I would be insulted more than anything else. You have to recognize that not everyone cares ab
56 abrelosojos : = Look, rule 240 is a pre-dereg ruling that has been modified and I honestly don't get why people make such a big deal out of it. It does not even ex
57 spink : While this may sound nice on the surface, I not sure it makes any sense in reality. This not only significantly complicates scheduling but also has t
58 tennis69 : There are many worse places to be stuck for 3 days than Shang Hai. I wish I was on that flight!!
59 azstagecoach : But how does the $1000 voucher help a single stranded passenger get home? The voucher is for a future round-trip flight, but may of the 225 desperatel
60 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Nice labeling. It sounds like a few reasonable posters are being dismissed out of hand because it doesn't fit other's point of view. United1 already
61 ual777uk : Considering ,as has been explained on numerous occasions that its peak travel time, thats a brave statement to make. Other airlines would have been p
62 Post contains images cmf : I fully agree the current system is built to impact as few as possible, i.e. make a few take all the pain. What I'm proposing is to set a time limit
63 ltbewr : Unfortunately this was a no-win situation for both UA and the passengers involved. There is limited capacity. There are few if any 'relief' aircraft a
64 kl692 : You must be mistaken cause that is what happen
65 Post contains images ual777uk : He wasn't mistaken, he was being sarcastic, hence the , he was in fact agreeing with you.
66 cmf : Why is that wrong? Or more specifically. Why should passenger having the unfortune to be on a plane with problems have to see people pass them? The c
67 brilondon : We know better than that, most flights this time of year are already full so most if not all airlines probably had no choice but to refuse the passen
68 GALLEYSTEW : I should have quoted the post I was responding to when I posted the first time. Just tired of UNITED bashing.
69 GALLEYSTEW : THANK you for this!!!! It was a major inconvinience, but refunded tickets, hotels, and $1000 for future travels is not a bad deal
70 ual777uk : Are you serious? The potential fall out for the domino effect you would have an airline follow would be a nightmare all across the board! Not a logic
71 Post contains images BHMNONREV : Cue the Nazareth intro... Several years ago I had the unfortunate experience of the UA977 delay, DXB-IAD and it was just as you described here. Bird
72 spink : It is wrong because those passengers what that were inconvenienced are now inconveniencing yet more passengers and with disproportionate effect. What
73 cmf : Of course I'm serious. Why shouldn't I be? I'm sure the passengers on the cancelled flights are at least as annoyed as passengers on a later flight w
74 spink : We would need actual statistics to make that determination. Mechanical issues affect every airline. Several years ago I had a bad string of luck with
75 cmf : You're pretending every flight is always full. We know loads vary greatly throughout the system. It may take a long time to send a plane load of pass
76 EaglePower83 : I guess I'll throw my 2RMB in here. I think, with how stingy UA/CO has been lately with comp, this seems like quite a generous offering. Hotel, food,
77 strfyr51 : while that flight was stuck at leat 3 747-422's came and went non-stop to SFO, I don't know what the Contnental side was thinking IF anything, but tha
78 cmf : Question is if there were empty seats on them.
79 Roseflyer : The way most airlines handle cancellations is to reaccommodate the passengers on the canceled flight with space available within the airline or outsi
80 strfyr51 : The shares system is "Basic" at best. It doesn't do 1/3 of the stuff the apollo system did and it doesn't appear to be getting any Better evidently..
81 ual777uk : For the reasons already explained, the ripple effect of your way forward would be a disaster.....lets not just inconvienience this flight load of pas
82 tymnbalewne : I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying: Flight 1 goes tech on Monday Bump pax on Tues Flight 1 to accommodate MON's pax. I'm I
83 EaglePower83 : Regarding what Tech was kept from what airline... FWIW, I've seen lists in threads on Flyertalk from UA staff saying that about half the IT systems at
84 flashmeister : Yes, and sadly, the new United has kept some of the worst (and, admittedly, best) traits of Continental. One of the worst is Continental's abysmal pe
85 Roseflyer : People like to say on the forums that CO is the one that took over and is running the show, which really isn't true in all parts of the business. Eng
86 cmf : How airlines like to handle it doesn't matter much. What matters is that after a few times when passengers have been stranded multiple days there wil
87 tymnbalewne : That's crazy talk. If I'm booked on Tues. flight, and there's nothing wrong with Tuesday's flight then why should I be disrupted? Crazy talk. It's ju
88 Cubsrule : It's absolutely not an apples to apples comparison, but it's exactly what WN does a lot of times with m/x cancellations. WN does it in sequence until
89 Roseflyer : I don’t think we are ever going to agree on this. The airline has a certain number of seats. They are going to be paying for 750 hotel room nights
90 max999 : Yes, that's the contractually minimum in most airlines' contract of carriage. But it's kind of sad to think that UA is only doing the bare minimum (f
91 tymnbalewne : I live 9 miles from MDW so fly WN frequently and I've never seen them bump people from a flight in order to accommodate people from a cancelled servi
92 par13del : Its not an absolute, but it is / can be done, it depends on the route, a/c availabe and pax loads. If more instances like this occur regulators will
93 tymnbalewne : What? That WN will involuntarily bump someone in order to accommodate a disrupted passenger from an earlier flight?
94 cmf : Crazy talk is suggesting that it is fair to let Monday's passengers spend day after day watching flights to their destination take off with the airli
95 tymnbalewne : Yes...because then you've aliented 750 people. Not a good business model and you can say all you want that it's better to disrupt 750 people a little
96 fxramper : Dunno why this needed it's own article or thread. The new UA does this often. EZE & IST go late and mx all the time. UA 905 cxl yesterday and pass
97 par13del : Yes, because it is good customer service, how they do it seems to be the problem, most have no issue when they ask for volunteers. Carriers are allow
98 brilondon : So if all 275 people get bumped they would be able to bump 275 people off the next flight? That seems highly unlikely to happen. In the flying world,
99 Cubsrule : If they have an airplane go out of service for m/x, rather than cancelling the outbound flight or delaying the flight until the plane is repaired, th
100 ridgid727 : It will probably never stop. As an example, Just the other day in SLC, I heard 2 DL agents talking, and one said are you Delta Delta, or Western Delt
101 tymnbalewne : Not accurate, I'm afraid: Fans unable to attend the rescheduled game may exchange their unused tickets at any time for any future regular season game
102 Post contains images cmf : You're dead wrong if you think airlines will be allowed to leave passengers stranded for multiple days at any kind of frequency. Even less so if high
103 PlanesNTrains : "Can" be done - sure. The question is "can" it be done effectively in every situation? I've dealt with sold-out situations before when our equipment
104 EK413 : Sounds to me the airline has done everything they could possibly do to accommodate the effected passengers... Your always going to have Jo blow compl
105 Post contains links and images mercure1 : http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...0729887/united-airlines-cio-leaves "United declined to elaborate on the shift."
106 etoile : The PVG incident was not like a SW flight at MDW. PVG to EWR is one daily flight. The process you describe, assuming 90% load, roughly means 90% of t
107 tymnbalewne : No you won't. No matter how you phrase the explanation the response is going to be, "...and that's my problem, why?" You're choosing to be obtuse in
108 toobz : Well in all honesty, I do not know what the loads on UA are, however I can say I have been traveling intra-Asia flights on DL for the past week- and t
109 par13del : No, each situation is different along with its environment, hence there are always multiple contingencies. The contingencies that UA has to put in pl
110 cmf : I check the intranets before asking the question and after reading your reply so can you please be a dear and provide the info. I agree effective is
111 n92r03 : Have either of you ever boarded a plane in China? It is a different experience than in the US. You don't even need to go to China to see it. Stop by
112 Cubsrule : . . . which is why I started with the observation that it's not an apples to apples comparison.
113 Roseflyer : I know you are going to disagree with this, but airlines operate a class structure and it is not about being fair or equal rights. It's about what ma
114 cmf : I didn't think it would take this long for this argument to come up. So now you're saying that it is OK to bump Tuesday's passengers for Monday's pas
115 BCEaglesCO757 : It's nice to think about.......but I'm realistic enough to know Gordon Bethune isn't walking through that door. They need to blow his name up in bigge
116 BCEaglesCO757 : They are very much full.
117 slcdeltarumd11 : That was a pretty nice welcome of those passengers to the new United! "At one point there was a physical altercation between a passenger and an airpor
118 PlanesNTrains : It was different in my scenario. It's hard for most of us to give an identical situation. I've got another (railroad) analogy that I think illustrate
119 cmf : You said 1,750 people. With 275 per day that is a week. I'm sorry you took it as condescending. There was no such intention. I think what you took as
120 Roseflyer : I couldn’t agree more. Communicating the situation is always better. No passengers ever give up their seat to someone else involuntarily except for
121 gigneil : UA covers sCO flights in IRROPS from SFO all the time. NS
122 Roseflyer : Very true. With the operations center combined, UA can cover CO airplanes and CO can cover UA flights. They do this for domestic flights when swappin
123 PlanesNTrains : Well, I don't know what else I can share from my point of view that will be different than what I've already said. I think that Roseflyer has pretty m
124 frmrCapCadet : At this point it appears that even United realizes that it should have done better. Some of us agree.
125 klwright69 : Exactly, especially check out the EWR-EZE flight. Cancellations and 3 to 8, even 11 hour delays are commonplace. It is horrifying. Yes, UA seems to b
126 Post contains links and images cmf : Not true. It happens daily. Typical example is last minute switch because a plane with high load goes tech and that flight is then handled by a plane
127 Roseflyer : When an airplane goes tech and is swapped to a smaller plane, you have an oversold condition. It’s treated like an oversold flight and denied board
128 FI642 : This sums up exactly how I feel too. Rolling passengers over and over does not work - and causes massive disruption to spread ad ripple through the s
129 WROORD : It is not like you are bar hopping on the Bund or shopping on Nanjing Road. You are stuck at the airport and waste half a day only to find out you ha
130 spink : Just in time factory delivery is significantly different than passenger rescheduling. JIT delivery is a many to one network with unidirectional flows
131 Post contains images toobz : Right on my friend. Been in Tokyo 2 days and haven't seen anything other than the airport and the hotel. No shopping or bar hopping here..well beside
132 Post contains images cmf : Not the situation I brought up. I'm talking about same model plane being used for a different flight. Something that happens frequently. It's probabl
133 Roseflyer : This is my last comment in this thread. I don't think this debate is going anywhere, but I'll add some more reasoning. I don't see why it is different
134 Post contains images cmf : Let's try again You have two flights departing at 10:00. They use identical equipment. One has 100 passengers the other 150. At 9:00 the plane schedu
135 Roseflyer : I don't see that happening, but I have seen a person accept PVG-ORD-MIA since the passenger was going to MIA in a different airline for the EWR-MIA s
136 United_fan : Seems to me they could have accomodated them on another Star Alliance carrier,
137 tymnbalewne : So, I just checked on this with a former colleague in the operational research unit at a major international airline. She said they're lucky to get 8
138 cmf : Let's look at this a bit. Right now a phone number or email address is (mostly) not required and they still reach up to 80% according to your source.
139 Roseflyer : Your proposal in my opinion would lead to an airline having the worst completion factor and on time performance of any airline. It also would likely
140 Post contains images cmf : If Roseflyer airlines operate as other airlines do today it too will do this. Why would that be ignored when I said it was considered? Why are crew g
141 toobz : it's the life of a non rev...grrr. I was in Tokyo. DL had multiple flights cancelled out of NRT and HND the past few days. Nightmare is putting it mi
142 tymnbalewne : But what you're proposing is that the disrupted passengers jump ahead of those who would otherwise not be disrupted. The last passenger will arrive w
143 etoile : I have a different candidate: The task of legislators is (1) to get re-elected and (2) direct as much tax revenue to their constituents as possible,
144 cmf : No. I'm proposing they keep the order the airline confirmed their flights. I don't know how this can be unclear by this point. Yet again, no. I'm say
145 etoile : This crystallizes the essential difference between the current commonly operated system and the system you propose. In the current system, a passenge
146 cmf : No. how did you get that idea? Passenger buy tickets in the same way as today. They enter the points (airports) and the times they want. They get a l
147 etoile : Based on your prior posts, as reconfirmed by the reply. Not realistic, as there are always cancelled flights. This is CmfAir, since it will operate o
148 DTWLAX : Are you aware that CDMA technology phones do not work outside of the respective countries? Your Sprint and Verizon phones do not work outside USA. Th
149 brilondon : If the flight goes to two different cities then how would you accommodate those who end up in a different city under your plan? Basically when a flig
150 staralliance85 : United did do their part in reaccomodating their passengers by giving them a refund, $1000 flight credit and the hotel stays. The Continental long hau
151 srbmod : This discussion has veered well off of the original topic, and is now locked. Any posts that appear after this locking message will be deleted for hou
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