Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops  
User currently offlineLHLX From Israel, joined Nov 2011, 79 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16492 times:

On it's Israeli website Lufthansa prides itself as the largest foreign carrier.

A year ago they had two daily FRA flights (744 and Airbus 346) and 5 weekly MUC.

Now they are down to 2 daily FRA (343 and 346) and 5 weekly MUC (343 or 333) plus 2 weekly Berlin.

A month ago they said they would from late October 2012 downgrade MUC to Airbus 321 and the 2 daily FRA to Airbus 333.

Friday, two days ago, Israeli newspaper Ynet reported they would downgrade their 2 daily FRA flights to narrowbody Airbus 321, too!

Very said to see a quality carrier that offered PTVs in al classes (apart from the new Berlin flights) and first and business class in all flights (again, apart from Berlin), even bringing Lufthansa's new business class from MUC on almost every flight in the past fortnight...they don't even doensize to a 2-class Airbus 340. Rather, they will offer an inflight experience that is akin to their IST, ATH and DME flights.

This is a chance for EL AL to get many of Lufthansa's most frequent fliers and apparently they have already started luring them with top frequent flier status....


Let's hope Swiss won't follow....

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1846 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16397 times:

I understand your disappointment as a passenger, for a switch from a widebody to a narrowbody plane, but if LH do that, there is obviously a reason. Either the demand is not there anymore, or the yields are terrible (a common problem for many carriers to TLV). Another good reason is that LH has probably other long-haul routes where these widebodies could be better used. With the current economic situation, there is no more room for "keeping a widebody on medium-haul route" just to please a very very few number of plane-type sensitive pax, when this route can be perfectly operated, and maybe more efficiently, by a narrowbody. Keep in mind that 95% of pax (or even more) don't know in advance and don't care at all about the plane type they will fly.

User currently offlineLHLX From Israel, joined Nov 2011, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16317 times:

I don't completely agree. Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes. Every time Swiss substitutes an Airbus 330/340 with a 321 people call up Swiss in Tel Aviv and rage. Over the weekend a number of HONs and SENs, the highest status of LH frequent fliers, 3 of whom I personally know, have already said they will switch to other airlines. Likewise, many of their partners, who all have Elite status, said they would switch to Swiss or, for USA flights, to UA and US. When EL AL downgraded their FRA flights from almost daily 767s to 737s, a lot of people moved to Lufthansa. Seems like now Swiss, UA, US and TK, all of whom offer some or another "real" business class seats (and service)...will get more customers on their TLV flights...not to mention EL AL, who's biggest competitor in TLV becomes much less of threat. Not only can EL AL compete with LH's product...they will offer a more decent one in both business and economy class...

User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16317 times:

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):

This is a chance for EL AL to get many of Lufthansa's most frequent fliers and apparently they have already started luring them with top frequent flier status....

well EL AL with it's Platinum status can't compete with Miles and More SEN or HON status. Also these kind of passengers require quality, flexibility and a diverse route network of which nothing LY can offer. For the time being as long as SWISS will keep it's long haul equipment these premium conecting passengers can be fed via ZRH. Israel is a key market for the LH Group with arpoximately 200 HON Circle memebers and a couple thousand SEN's. Therefore I still hope that FRA will remain a premium route as well.


User currently offlineyp6370 From Germany, joined Apr 2000, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15982 times:

To which airline should they switch?

KL, AF, AZ, IB all come to TLV with single-aisle planes (A319/321 or 737).
LY flies mostly 737/757 to central Europe.

Only BA operates 767/777 from LON.

It's a question of effectively operating a fleet and how to earn money on that route.
If LH can use the long-haul jets better on other, more profitable routes it's the economically right decision.


User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15939 times:

Quoting yp6370 (Reply 4):
Only BA operates 767/777 from LON.

And we are waiting for the announcement that this will go to 3 x A321/day.
ex-BMI A321 with good Club seats though.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15903 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting yp6370 (Reply 4):

Doesn't Turkish Airlines operate the route with a A330-200?


User currently offlineyp6370 From Germany, joined Apr 2000, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15875 times:

TK flies 4x/day with all different kind of a/c from 737/321 to 777

User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15821 times:

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes.

And go where exactly? The El Al service is not superior to LH.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 1):
the yields are terrible (a common problem for many carriers to TLV).

Terrible Yield and Demanding passengers - a very difficult scenario to make a profit.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineLHLX From Israel, joined Nov 2011, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15799 times:

While LY's business seats on the 737s and 757s (which are being taken out of service or operating sund'or flights) might not be long haul lie-flat seats, they are comfortable business seats, as opposed to IB, OS, SK, AZ, KL, SN and AF (and soon LH) who leave only the middle seat free. TK offer a decent product on most planes (on both the long haul Airbus 330s and 340s as well as some 320s and 321s coming to TLV), BA have a proper long haul product, as do LX. From Europe BA and LX, and to some degree LY, will be the only ones offering premium seats in F (not LX) and C and PTVs in all classes on all flights (LY only on some LHR and CDG flights).

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15796 times:

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
downgrade
Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
downgrade

Point of correction. The term is downgauge.

Downgrade is something that happens to a passenger, or involves frequency.

Capacity sizing changes is gauge



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineyp6370 From Germany, joined Apr 2000, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15703 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 8):
Terrible Yield and Demanding passengers - a very difficult scenario to make a profit.

  
TLV gets a more and more battled market with low-costers entering.


Well I guess most of LH's passengers cannot just switch to LY because they are connecting in FRA/MUC to e.g. USA.
If we assume that BA indeed changes their flights to 321, it would leave TK and LX operating to TLV with widebodies.

Why do you need a "proper long haul product" anyways on a 4h flight (FRA)?
After you've finished your 5 course meal in First Class there's hardly any time left to sleep 


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15682 times:

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
Let's hope Swiss won't follow....

As I know SWISS will in Winter schedule fly twice daily with 333 ZRH-TLV.


User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 15645 times:

I travelled MUC-TLV last week and it took only 3hours and ten minutes.
A long haul plane is not really needed for this sector.
Are there any plans for other routes being downgauged?
I am thinking about FRA-GYD-ASB which used to be operated by A-320 series aircraft
in the 90's.


User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 15555 times:

Quoting Aviaco (Reply 13):
A long haul plane is not really needed for this sector.

Sometimes large aircraft operate on short routes due to high volumes of cargo and not because of high volume of passengers.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 14667 times:

I guess in the past LH got a big chunk of the Israel-USA traffic, maybe this situation has changed? Have there been a lot of direct connections added in the last few years?

Keep in mind that a downgauge from A330/A340 to A321 really is a downgauge in premium capacity only. In fact it's even a capacity increase as far as eco seating is concerned.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinefaucett From Peru, joined Jul 2009, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14245 times:

As a very frequent traveler in both TLV-FRA and TLV-MUC, I must say that as much as I like the A330/A340 LH birds, I will not trade my ongoing flights in either FRA or MUC because of the short hop from TLV is made in a narrow body. I need the comfort mostly in the long haul leg, not the short one. It' s a pity, not a problem.
As for loads, I've seen all - sometimes it so full there's no room for even an ant, and sometimes it's half empty. Depends on the day of the week and time of the year.
I will keep faithful to LH, as long as the service and the connections are comfortable for me.



faucett
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14220 times:

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
Friday, two days ago, Israeli newspaper Ynet reported they would downgrade their 2 daily FRA flights to narrowbody Airbus 321, too!

Is there any official announcement that they're actually going to do this?

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
I don't completely agree. Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes

One can also argue that the pax are spoiled as their counterparts from AMM or BEY are having a more difficult time getting on a long haul aircraft. Moreover how many airlines serve IST with long haul aircraft (granted IST is one hour flying less), Heck LH serves FRA-CAI with a A321 as well.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13776 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Did they use their A300-600 to TLV before they withdrew them from service?

User currently offlinevgnatl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1514 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13315 times:

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
Over the weekend a number of HONs and SENs, the highest status of LH frequent fliers, 3 of whom I personally know, have already said they will switch to other airlines. Likewise, many of their partners, who all have Elite status, said they would switch to Swiss or, for USA flights, to UA and US.

While it's lost revenue to LH for them to do that, they're not exactly making any sacrifice by flying UA or US. If they are top tier LH frequent flyers they'll be flying on Star Gold privileges no matter what star carrier they fly.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlinemachnumber From Greenland, joined Jul 2011, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13264 times:

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
Rather, they will offer an inflight experience that is akin to their IST, ATH and DME flights.

Why not? Is Tel Aviv so much more superior than those cities? I don't think so.


User currently onlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12982 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Aviaco (Reply 13):
I travelled MUC-TLV last week and it took only 3hours and ten minutes.
A long haul plane is not really needed for this sector.
Are there any plans for other routes being downgauged?
I am thinking about FRA-GYD-ASB which used to be operated by A-320 series aircraft
in the 90's.

Is MUC-TLV the shortest in duration when compared to LHR/CDG/FRA/AMS/ZRH/VIE/MAD?

Quoting yp6370 (Reply 4):

KL, AF, AZ, IB all come to TLV with single-aisle planes (A319/321 or 737).
LY flies mostly 737/757 to central Europe.

Slight correction for you yp6370. Even though I don't like anything about IB, they do offer one widebody flight to TLV a day while the second daily flight is flown with a A319 that does have a real business cabin. They now have a small subfleet of A319s that fly long, thin routes that do need a dedicated J cabin.

Are these changes possibly taking place because of the rumor or BA downgauging their TLV, CAI and a couple of other routes in the same category to A321s that have a dedicated J cabin versus their usual J cabin that can be adjusted according to demand? Sometimes changes occur because of the competition though, it seems LH has offered one of the best products in the TLV market for quite sometime.
Has LH always had a high demand among transiting passenger for TLV service? Which airline sees the most demand for transit onwards to TLV? 1) LH; 2)BA; 3) LX; 4); 5) IB; 6) OS; 7) KL; 8) AF ?

It's well known how demanding passengers coming from or going to TLV are. Typically are loads and yields among the highest in this medium haul market?.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12911 times:

Maybe this downgauge is just a rumour.
LH has been sending widebodies to TLV for ages.
I don't see why they would make such a big change



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3264 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12779 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Point of correction. The term is downgauge.

Downgrade is something that happens to a passenger, or involves frequency.

Capacity sizing changes is gauge

That's technically correct however there is a good argument that it's also a downgrade in this case as the service levels and comfort appear to be less and / or lower. In the case of BA one would most certainly upgaugre from a B772 to a B744 but one would be upgrading and upgauging from an A321 to the B772.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12586 times:

TLV is one huge leisure/ethnic market. Just look at LY which has denser configurations with small premium cabins. I recall seeing a Tel Aviv Airport marketing prospectus for an airline a couple years back something like 90% of passengers traffic was leisure.

For some carriers and markets there is strong underlying O&D demand, while for others such as IB, TLV is operated to generate transit flow (as example 75,000 flew on IB between Israel and South America(EZE was #1) in 2011).

I suspect since airline like LH are hugely focused on their hubs, TLV is more a feeder market than anything else.
Ultimately carriers want to mix/match the best revenue mix possible while covering cost, so it could very well be the smaller A320 family does this better in the market then a larger widebody for them.


Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
that it's also a downgrade in this case as the service levels and comfort

Sure, for a consumer you can call it what you wish, but frankly a Y class seat on a 744 is about the same as an A321.

But at the end of the day, since I presume people here would like to learn and utilize the correct industry language, the capacity sizing change term applicable in this case is gauge.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 ju068 : Mmmm have you actually flown on Lufthansa's 744 and 321? There is a huge difference! The older non-refurbished 744s are more comfortable than the sli
26 AAExecPlat : Well. If pax are flying TATL, on UA or LX, LH still gets plenty of revenue through the TATL ATI/JV. Only if pax fly US (not part of the ATI/JV), does
27 skipness1E : Don't BA have more legroom in Y on the short haul fleet? Hence that would be a downgauged upgrsde.
28 LOWS : It's not FRA-SFO... People can live for four hours without a TV screen.
29 PanHAM : My experience at least on the day flight is that F upstairs was always full as well as the J cabin of the 744. The only time I experienced an almost e
30 ju068 : It's not a matter if they can survive or not, it's whether this change brought down the level of service. Removing entertainment definitely qualifies
31 6thfreedom : I love it when I read comments such as the ones below... quantitative on the basis of what a few people thing. the reality is that while the market ma
32 jumpjets : That is certainly true on the E190s which are v comfortable. On the airbus fleet depending how many of the converter seats have been sold as club Eur
33 Post contains images ImperialEagle : I don't think it has changed. I know quite a few business people who will gladly make the change at FRA to be able to fly on LH. Personally I am thin
34 dalca : I have been checking the LH website as well as my own work pc and nothing is mentioned of this at all. For both the LH686 and LH690 an A330-300 is sla
35 stylo777 : it will go into Amadeus in the next days Regarding cargo this downgauge is indeed questionable since the daily shipped amount is significant
36 civetfive : I think that is more indicative of a potential softening of demand ex-Europe to TLV rather than anything about the TLV market per se. Otherwise, would
37 OA260 : Indeed and this is actually an upgrade in terms of product offered for J Class passengers. British Airways carried 22,567 passengers to and from TLV
38 EK413 : Very sad to see the equipment downgrades but would you prefer LH pull out of the TLV market completely... Carriers adjust the equipment on specific r
39 6thfreedom : The other key question is how many more connections beyond FRA does LH hit by operating 3pw with A321 compared to a reduced frequency. i think freque
40 LY777 : I checked LH website, and for January, it is still double daily A333...
41 EK413 : Valid point... Another example would be CX operating SYD 4 x daily A333 oppose to 2 x daily B744 & A346... EK413
42 LHLX : On Lufthansa website both flights from late october are now Airbus 321. The LH690 now leaves FRA at 19:25, arriving in TLV at 00:35+, instead of FRA 2
43 AirGabon : Found on wikipedia: The airport's busiest year so far was 2011: 13 million passengers passed through the airport (an increase of 6.7% over the previo
44 bestwestern : Well, that is a surprise to be honest, but with AF x3 daily and LY litterally all over the place with schedule, the flights do add up. EL Al TLV Tel
45 PanHAM : They are shifting flights away from the late evening banks to the earlier bank. Looks like the late departure fell victim of the night curfew. The 69
46 tkfan : Who is No.4?? Maybe TK, thay have 4 dailies into TLV
47 Post contains links tkfan : Actually its 25 weekly, going up to 30/w in September and 32/w in October http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-in...112/tel-aviv-flights-has-increased
48 LJ : You miss the daily easyJet flight from Luton, but still less capacity
49 laca773 : This is very interesting. Thanks for posting, AirGabon. Does AF ever send their A321s or is this route always flown with the A320? Will we see LH per
50 SurfandSnow : As [European] LCCs gain traction in the Europe-Israel market, moves such as this are to be expected. On virtually any route in any part of the world,
51 Semaex : Forgive me for not heaving read all posts, but the first thing that came to mind when I read "downgrade from widebody to narrowbody" was cargo. Now th
52 LHLX : With TLV, BEY, CAI, AMM and flights to Iraq (from MUC only I think) operating in the 3,5 - 4 hour range...I think it really is time for Lufthansa to o
53 LJ : It would be very expensive to do that. During W12 only CAI and TLV are A321 (BEY will be A319 and AMM will be an A320 and FRA-EBL is always an A319).
54 dalca : The cargo is still there, both flights ex FRA are nearly 90% full of cargo every day and MUC also has a good load. Now as to what the revenue is I ca
55 Semaex : Improve service, yes. But costs? Would improve greatly too, I can guarantee you that! If the business case for a flat-bed or real-business-seat A32x
56 dalca : VIE is mostly used as transit to Eastern Europe and beyond as that is the strong point of OS in the LH Empire. I'm sure there are still many ties due
57 stylo777 : not only dimension, but also limited in weight, because of the length of the flight. especially the A321-100's (D-AIRxx) have a lower MTOW which brin
58 Semaex : Sounds like a dispatcher's nightmare. I'm guessing tho that for the winter months the flight will be back to A330/A340 a couple of times, simply beca
59 PanHAM : The alternative would be that LH puts a couple of cargo flights on that route to off-set the loss of belly capacity. The real nightmare is the 11pm gu
60 LXA340 : Has demand really gone down drastically on that route the last year or so. Until a few months ago LH 686/687 (FRA-TLV-FRA day flight) was served with
61 PanHAM : LH has a lot of conncting traffic on that flight, from North America. These pax won't like the A321 connection on a 4 hr flight and it is understandab
62 stylo777 : I thought the same, maybe a 2 weekly MD11 rotation?
63 jumpjets : As you may have read on other threads BA is also just about to swap to A321 service to TLV - albeit with 3 rather than 2 flights a day which means to
64 PanHAM : Never know what happens but I doubt that LH will reconfigure a small number of 321 with a fixed number of J seats. These a/c could only be used on the
65 LXA340 : Again, BA will offer a proper long haul product on these aircraft with fully flat business class seats. Overall the reduction of total seats is not t
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Recent Old Terminals In Delhi, Tel Aviv, Beijing posted Wed Oct 13 2010 09:37:37 by washingtonian
Tel Aviv - Antalia Line To Be Closed Next Week posted Wed Jun 2 2010 13:42:55 by EL-AL
Nepal Airlines In Tel Aviv - Pic posted Mon Apr 12 2010 11:09:39 by 777way
Korean Air Tel Aviv Downgrade posted Thu Mar 18 2010 10:59:36 by 777way
Easyjet Between Tel Aviv And Geneva As Of 08.2010? posted Sat Jan 23 2010 15:07:39 by TodaReisinger
El Al Will Fly Domastic: Tel Aviv - Eilat posted Mon Aug 31 2009 03:04:28 by EL-AL
Tel Aviv And Security Categories? posted Thu Aug 13 2009 02:45:03 by OA260
EasyJet To Launch Luton-Tel-Aviv Service (W09) posted Wed Jul 8 2009 03:54:31 by Gilesdavies
Route Questions: Tel Aviv-New York posted Thu Jun 4 2009 02:36:47 by LY772
Air Berlin Starts Berlin-Tel Aviv On July 7 posted Wed May 20 2009 10:34:31 by NYC2TLV