Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Ryanair Submits Formal Bid For Aer Lingus  
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1197 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6298 times:

The plan was announced back in June, but now it has been formally submitted.
Personally, i don't feel he has a chance of getting past competition law, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out anyway.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0717/breaking20.html

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12325 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

Third attempt, third "no"; what part of "get stuffed" does MO'L not understand.

He must know this; why put in the effort when it's going to be rejected; what is his gameplan. It just seems a bit mad to be saving pennies here and there in flying operations, only to squander it on the legal costs associated with work like this. (And this doesn't come cheap, let me tell you!)


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

If BA can buy BMI I don't see why Ryanair could not buy Aer Lingus for competition reasons. This may be in fact EI last chance to sell before FR forces them out of business.

User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 2):
If BA can buy BMI I don't see why Ryanair could not buy Aer Lingus for competition reasons. This may be in fact EI last chance to sell before FR forces them out of business.

I agree ... And, I think his continued attempt makes Brussels look one-sided and foolish ....


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6148 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Danny (Reply 2):
This may be in fact EI last chance to sell before FR forces them out of business.

Currently EI are the only airline that have managed to successfully compete in the same market as FR. I don't see them going out of business anytime soon.

The financial figures used by FR are for the last 6 years, 2/3 of which were under a pretty incompetent exec/mgmt team (1 of whom was ex-FR) The last 2 years have seen a cost reduction and streamlining program implemented which has greatly reduced EI costs. FR know they need to get EI now before the medium/long term effects of this restructuring come into play.

And if the bid was allowed then over 75% of all air travel out of an island nation would be under the control of a openly aggressive and avaricious business model. The capacity of DUB isn't a barrier to other airlines operating in/out, the present of FR and EI is the barrier. EZ tried routes out of Ireland before and were undercut and chased out by FR.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6058 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 4):
The last 2 years have seen a cost reduction and streamlining program implemented which has greatly reduced EI costs

Operating costs for 2011 were pretty much the same as for 2009 (1239k vs 1286k EUR). The profit came from increased revenue and will go away as soon as they start to feel the 2nd wave of crisis.


User currently onlineEIDL From Ireland, joined Apr 2012, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6002 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
Operating costs for 2011 were pretty much the same as for 2009 (1239k vs 1286k EUR). The profit came from increased revenue and will go away as soon as they start to feel the 2nd wave of crisis.

They are operating significantly more flights on a (marginally) larger fleet with far higher fuel costs than 2009. If revenue falls away, they'll drop flights and costs will drop.

EI are the only "small" airline that have ever managed to compete with FR and this is a last bid of bravado from MO'L and nothing more. He's likely to be forced to sell the stake by the UK govt and wants to push the share price as high as possible, that's all.


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5972 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
If BA can buy BMI I don't see why Ryanair could not buy Aer Lingus for competition reasons.

One slight difference, BMI was on the verge of ceasing ops as it was pouring cash down the drain, I dont think thats happening with EI so you cannot complare the two. BA saved BMI or at least a lot of peoples jobs there, FR are not stepping in to be the shining knight here.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out though.


User currently offlinePoianaMarco From Denmark, joined Jan 2012, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

I just can´t see, why EI are not willing to sell the whole company to FR. They arent waht ypu would call a super airline?..


The secret behind a good working day is happy guests and to know that you have been giving 110% and not just 100 of seri
User currently onlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 5774 times:

I understand it, the EI shares are held as follows:

FR: 30% (clearly voting for the takeover)
Irish Government: 25% (they need to sell them as part of cash raising, state debt situation improvement)
Others: 45% (it's all about price)

The "Others" (the owners of 45% of the shares) have a price (more accurately "prices" as each shareholder will probably have a slightly different price) at which they are prepared to sell, it is simply whether FR are prepared to pay enough to get them to sell.

The government has a dilemma, they need to sell the shares for as much as they can get, they probably don't want to sell to FR (MO'L isn't the most likeable, polite or establishment type of guy and you can geneuinely argue a competition issue), but who else is going to buy those shares if not FR?

MO'L is neatly putting the government in position with very few options (other than his own).



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

There are a lot more players in the UK market than the Irish market, which is why FR's attempted take over of EI will be more controversial in the eyes of the EU than BA's take over of BMI.

Essentially FR and EI are the only significant domestic carriers in Ireland so any merger will result in them pretty much owning the market apart from foreign carriers operating into the country from their home bases.

In the UK you have BA, VS, U2, LS, BE as major players so the BMI takeover was seen as less controversial, even in respect of LHR slots.



Next Flights: LHR-LBA (319-SK), MAN-ARN (736-SK), ARN-LHR (763-BA), LHR-CPH (CR9-SK), CPH-LHR (320-SK), LHR-IAH (744-BA)
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26508 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5573 times:

A recent poll by a newspaper showed that 54% were not in favor of an FR takeover, 24% were in favor and 21% didnt know or care either way .

And a local businessman is buying more of Aer Lingus to try stop a take over. :

Share buying was to foil Ryanair bid, says O'Brien

Businessman Denis O'Brien said he invested in Aer Lingus to thwart Ryanair's ambition to take over the carrier as he didn't want investors in Ireland to be flown by the discount airline.

"I didn't think it was a great idea for Ryanair to be flying foreign direct investors into Ireland," Mr O'Brien said in an interview with Bloomberg Television.

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...anair-bid-says-obrien-3146346.html



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16947 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 2):
I don't see why Ryanair could not buy Aer Lingus for competition reasons.

   What exactly are you saving EI from/for? It's perpetually on the brink of disaster and its service isn't that much different from FR.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 3):
I think his continued attempt makes Brussels look one-sided and foolish ....

  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5411 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 10):
There are a lot more players in the UK market than the Irish market, which is why FR's attempted take over of EI will be more controversial in the eyes of the EU than BA's take over of BMI.

Essentially FR and EI are the only significant domestic carriers in Ireland so any merger will result in them pretty much owning the market apart from foreign carriers operating into the country from their home bases.

In the UK you have BA, VS, U2, LS, BE as major players so the BMI takeover was seen as less controversial, even in respect of LHR slots.

I don't agree with your reasoning ... LHR is so congested and slot-controlled that the other competitors are less relevant. Second, FR is a low-fare carrier, so the competitive concern is much less than at a place like LHR with huge amounts of business traffic. And, last time I checked the EU has open skies, so anyone can go into any Irish airport and provide service and compete against FR ....


User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5364 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Thread starter):
Personally, i don't feel he has a chance of getting past competition law, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out anyway.

Why not? Most countries in Europe have only one airline. Why would Ireland need two?

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 3):
I think his continued attempt makes Brussels look one-sided and foolish ....

Yes, that is what they already are concerning this topic.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently onlineEIDL From Ireland, joined Apr 2012, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Why not? Most countries in Europe have only one airline. Why would Ireland need two?

Most countries in Europe are served by the airline of the country they're flying to on a given route as well as their own.

In Ireland's case, that isn't common. No Alitalia, no KL, no TP, etc; even AF use their WX metal most of the time.

Irish aviation is very much a two player game, EI and FR - EI now being bigger from DUB.

Despite FRs claims, letting them acquire EI would bring us back to the 1980s choice and competition wise.


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5296 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Why not? Most countries in Europe have only one airline. Why would Ireland need two?

Thats rubbish! Most EU countries have more then one airline....OR at least a fair amount of competition!

Take EI away and all Ireland will have will be a mass FR hub and then a handful of other diddly little services which will be constantly and aggressively attacked by FR until they pull out and we can expect higher fairs as a result!

EI is profitable, it is doing well holding its own and FR should just give it up!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Quoting EIDL (Reply 15):
In Ireland's case, that isn't common. No Alitalia, no KL, no TP, etc; even AF use their WX metal most of the time.

Those countries will launch flights when EI is gone anyway. Same happened with Budapest and Malev. There we have a large FR and W6 presence, but almost all capitals are covered by full frills airlines.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 16):
Take EI away and all Ireland will have will be a mass FR hub and then a handful of other diddly little services which will be constantly and aggressively attacked by FR until they pull out and we can expect higher fairs as a result!

Lol, and guess what EI was doing when FR entered the Irish market....



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently onlineEIDL From Ireland, joined Apr 2012, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 18):
Lol, and guess what EI was doing when FR entered the Irish market....

Charging much the same as FR but from a proper airport?

FR were not a budget airline until maybe ten years in to their life. They ran wrecks from secondary airports and charged basically the same. Had business class and a FFP.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 17):
Those countries will launch flights when EI is gone anyway. Same happened with Budapest and Malev. There we have a large FR and W6 presence, but almost all capitals are covered by full frills airlines.

Quite how the media outside of Ireland (and most of the media within Ireland at that) haven't realised that this bid is never going to go ahead astounds me. EI aren't going to be sold to FR - the deal will be blocked and the ISE have a three-strikes rule meaning that FR cannot bid again for some substantial period.


User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5085 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
Businessman Denis O'Brien said he invested in Aer Lingus to thwart Ryanair's ambition to take over the carrier as he didn't want investors in Ireland to be flown by the discount airline.

"I didn't think it was a great idea for Ryanair to be flying foreign direct investors into Ireland," Mr O'Brien said in an interview with Bloomberg Television.

What a lame excuse... The likes of KL, TP, AF, LH, BA etc will launch or upgrade routes immediately might EI fold or been taken over by FR.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5175 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 13):
And, last time I checked the EU has open skies, so anyone can go into any Irish airport and provide service and compete against FR ....

But so far they haven't....I wonde why. The dominance of the 2 competing Irish airlines maybe makes entry too problematic.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Most countries in Europe have only one airline.

Most countries in Europe aren't as reliant on air travel as an island on the edge of Europe!

Quoting kl911 (Reply 18):
guess what EI was doing when FR entered the Irish market....

Actually it was EI and BA, but your point is valid. FR broke the old monoply and are now trying to re-create it again in THEIR favour.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Didn't Willie Walsh say that he could see that FR had a point in as much as the industry had moved on alot since the last attempt and that the economic environment had also changed significantly.


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineeljonno From Australia, joined Sep 2008, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

Out of interest, what would FR do with EI if they did take control? Would EI cease to exist and just be swallowed up under the Ryanair brand?

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4601 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5087 times:

Quoting eljonno (Reply 23):
Out of interest, what would FR do with EI if they did take control? Would EI cease to exist and just be swallowed up under the Ryanair brand?

Ryanair are stating that they will remain two separate brands. Ryanair will continue to serve secondary airports at low fares and no frills, while Aer Lingus will continue serving major capital city airports and their transatlantic routes. Ryanair plan to grow Aer Lingus traffic from 9 million to 14 million over the next 5 years, through expansion, cutting loss making Aer Lingus routes and opening new Aer Lingus routes. Also mentioned were increases in staff productivity.

Also, they are saying that this gives Aer Lingus a chance to remain Irish owned and managed as opposed to being bought by another European airline group.

All of it makes total sense to me really.

There is no way Aer Lingus would be closed down - otherwise you'd have every European carrier serving their capital to Dublin instead. Ryanair will never serve places like LHR, AMS, ARN, CDG, etc, etc... so Aer Lingus has a use. Nor will Ryanair go transatlantic anytime soon, I wouldn't think - and Aer Lingus already has the brand recognition for this.

The question I would ask people is - would you agree that Ryanair is the best choice for Aer Lingus if Michael O'Leary WAS NOT in charge of Ryanair? I think a lot of it, as an Australian living Ireland, is due to a negative perception of MO'L rather than Ryanair. But I could be wrong. It's how I see it anyway.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
25 Post contains links shamrock350 : There is one question constantly avoided when this crops up. What does Ryanair gain from buy Aer Lingus? The answer is not a lot other than removing i
26 Post contains images Revelation : Subtitle: Ryanair Throws Snowball Towards Hell, Awaits Outcome Bet he hears that expression several times a day! If I ever meet him, I hope I get the
27 MaverickM11 : 2011 yes, but in the last ten years it has lost around 1-200MM pounds. And every couple years, almost like clockwork, something happens and EI is on
28 eljonno : Sounds fair enough to me. I guess gaining ownership of the Are Lingus brand is an asset that FR could certainly use to its advantage, where their own
29 tonymctigue : This is something that often gets overlooked and something that Aer Lingus don't get enough of credit for even on the Irish forum (probably because w
30 Sheridan125 : My view of this is that RYR is likely to succeed this time. Let me set out my reasons for this view: 1. EI are in Ireland a much loved carrier but the
31 Ps76 : Hi! I'm only a sim pilot and armchair ceo but it seems that the setup would make Ryanair a quite messy company with quite possibly a lack of focus. Th
32 tonymctigue : Very hard to argue with anything you say there and EI is likely to eventually end up as part of some other airline group. Certainly your point about
33 sabenapilot : Have FR asked the EU for approval? It might have been a good dea to do so first.... My feeling is this is dead upon arrival right there, and thus this
34 Revelation : That idea will last about as long as WN's idea of using FL's 717s in smaller markets, yada yada. This is mostly about getting rid of a competitor. Al
35 Flyingsottsman : If this was to happen, which name and livery would be flying? The Ryanair and livery or the Aer Lingus name and livery?
36 Post contains images anfromme : The situation is quite different, because even combined, BA and BMI don't have a duopoloy in Heathrow, let alone all of the UK, of the sort a merged
37 EagleBoy : Well EI tried to separate the 2 sides of its business under the previous CEO, this was disastrous. The current strategy of using the shorthaul networ
38 kl911 : Ofcourse they have to get new conditions. Thats why EI is loss making and FR isnt. FR has much lower wages. It's also one of the reasons we can fly s
39 tonystan : KL911.....How often do you need it spelt out? EI is NOT loss making! Just because people are disagreeing with you and trying to get you to see that E
40 Post contains links shamrock350 : Again, Aer Lingus is not loss making. Aer Lingus profits from cost-cutting work http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17188458 Aer Lingus boosts profits
41 EagleBoy : EI has been profitable for the last 2 years under the (still ongoing) restructuring plan which is bringing the EI cost base close to that of EasyJet.
42 anfromme : Are you talking about Emirates? Yes, I know, FR use a different metric (number of passengers, not passenger-kilometres) - as they usually do if that
43 Post contains images anfromme : Case in point: Hangar 6. Not as much about trying to get hold of Hangar 6 as about creating some FR PR with some anti-EI and anti-government slur thr
44 MaverickM11 : It's profitable in 2011--have you looked at previous years? What about the last 5 years? 10 years? 2 years?
45 Post contains links anfromme : Yes. Back to 2001, EI's financial performance can easily be checked here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus#Financial_performance For those too
46 EIDL : Different era, different regime. Not relevant to the here and now. EI as it is currently run is profitable, is the largest airline in Ireland - FR ha
47 shamrock350 : 2011 - Profit 2010 - Profit 2009 - Loss 2008 - Loss 2007 - Profit 2006 - Loss 2005 - Profit 2004 - Profit 2003 - Profit 2002 - Profit 2001 - Loss 201
48 MaverickM11 : For a net 170M pounds loss before taxes, or 70M after taxes = not profitable.
49 EagleBoy : Have you noticed the > 1 Billion Euro cash reserves they have on their balance sheet as per the 2012 1st quarter results?
50 ClassicLover : This one is the most interesting since the Irish economy was in the middle of a boom and they managed to lose €70 million. Overall, I think people
51 kl911 : Ok, the last 2 years you are right, but just marginally profitable. not compared to the 500 million FR made. And I am Dutch, so Malev is not my natio
52 Post contains links anfromme : The European Commission would tend to disagree with you there. Even if the Irish government decide to sell their share to FR, the takeover could stil
53 anfromme : Partly a testament to the cluelessness of the management in control at the time. By contrast, the current team managed to make a net profit of €49
54 ClassicLover : Oh, I completely agree - under Christophe Muller the airline is doing very well. Forget the past, they are doing very well now and should continue to
55 EIDL : FR are significantly bigger. Some basic maths skills required there.
56 EagleBoy : Thats an interesting figure, nice way of explaining the overall advantage for FR. They effectively make a pofit of .57 cents per share along with eli
57 Post contains images anfromme : Add to that the fleet, slots (at LHR among others) and the brand itself.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ryanair Drop Takeover Bid For Aer Lingus posted Wed Dec 20 2006 23:43:51 by Gilesdavies
Ryanair Launches Takeover Bid For Aer Lingus posted Thu Oct 5 2006 09:25:08 by Cxsjr
Ryanair's O'Leary To Bid For Aer Lingus posted Mon Jul 12 2004 13:23:57 by Widebody
EU Blocks Ryanair Bid For Aer Lingus posted Tue Jul 6 2010 01:03:34 by Braybuddy
Ryanair Makes Fresh Take Over Bid For Aer Lingus posted Mon Dec 1 2008 00:02:43 by Smokeyrosco
Ryanair Makes $880m Cash Bid For Aer Lingus posted Tue Jun 19 2012 10:36:35 by btblue
More 'Buses For Aer Lingus posted Mon May 1 2006 13:28:33 by EI321
Whats The Next Step For Aer Lingus? posted Tue Aug 30 2005 00:31:53 by EI321
Three New US Routes For Aer Lingus? posted Thu Mar 18 2004 18:39:08 by Kaitak
New Colour Scheme For Aer Lingus posted Mon Mar 17 2003 10:25:05 by Unique
Ryanair Launches Takeover Bid For Aer Lingus posted Thu Oct 5 2006 09:25:08 by Cxsjr
Ryanair's O'Leary To Bid For Aer Lingus posted Mon Jul 12 2004 13:23:57 by Widebody
EU Blocks Ryanair Bid For Aer Lingus posted Tue Jul 6 2010 01:03:34 by Braybuddy
Ryanair Makes Fresh Take Over Bid For Aer Lingus posted Mon Dec 1 2008 00:02:43 by Smokeyrosco
Ryanair Makes $880m Cash Bid For Aer Lingus posted Tue Jun 19 2012 10:36:35 by btblue
More 'Buses For Aer Lingus posted Mon May 1 2006 13:28:33 by EI321
Whats The Next Step For Aer Lingus? posted Tue Aug 30 2005 00:31:53 by EI321
Three New US Routes For Aer Lingus? posted Thu Mar 18 2004 18:39:08 by Kaitak