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F9 Closing Wichita Mid-Continent Airport Flights  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

I guess the subsidy stopped. :p Odd that they are leaving a market with no WN DEN service. My guess is that it was coming anyway. It'll be interesting to see if WN is still interested with F9 gone.

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/m...nes-leaving-wichita.html?ana=yfcpc

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6594 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
I guess the subsidy stopped. :p

Seems to be F9's MO


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3761 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6582 times:

I'd imagine they'll need the F9 money, the FL money, and then some to pay for WN's service there. That's purely based on WN having higher costs than F9 and FL and them probably having more daily flights.

User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 551 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
I guess the subsidy stopped. :p

How unreasonable of F9 not to be willing to lose money on an unprofitable route....   

The subsidy was offered to secure flights and the market didn't materialize so why should F9 or any other carrier continue?


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3761 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6360 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
The subsidy was offered to secure flights and the market didn't materialize so why should F9 or any other carrier continue?

Is that how it's supposed to work? I thought the name of the game was to pay for the otherwise unprofitable service forever because of all of the money the community saved. I didn't think the routes were ever supposed to "work"


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6317 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
How unreasonable of F9 not to be willing to lose money on an unprofitable route....

Well F9 has become an airline that chases revenue guarantees, fails to develop the market, then leaves. This isnt much of a long term business plan.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 2):
I'd imagine they'll need the F9 money, the FL money, and then some to pay for WN's service there.

I bet you are right.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 4):
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
The subsidy was offered to secure flights and the market didn't materialize so why should F9 or any other carrier continue?

Is that how it's supposed to work? I thought the name of the game was to pay for the otherwise unprofitable service forever because of all of the money the community saved. I didn't think the routes were ever supposed to "work"

You are right again. This was a permanent subsidy. FL never made money there according to their agreement either.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 5):
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
How unreasonable of F9 not to be willing to lose money on an unprofitable route....

Well F9 has become an airline that chases revenue guarantees, fails to develop the market, then leaves. This isnt much of a long term business plan.

I completely agree, although this lasted quite a while...only because the subsidy went on much longer than normal markets. This subsidy was taxpayer money which also bothers me. Airport money or private money doesn't bother me as much.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Odd that they are leaving a market with no WN DEN service. My guess is that it was coming anyway. It'll be interesting to see if WN is still interested with F9 gone.

IIRC, WN already signed an agreement with ICT for $6-8 million to retain service to the city after the transition from the FL brand.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 2):
I'd imagine they'll need the F9 money, the FL money, and then some to pay for WN's service there. That's purely based on WN having higher costs than F9 and FL and them probably having more daily flights.

Should already be allocated after their agreement was signed. Not sure if the F9 agreement was structured like the FL/WN agreement(s) though.



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5960 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
IIRC, WN already signed an agreement with ICT for $6-8 million to retain service to the city after the transition from the FL brand.

But for what routes?

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
Should already be allocated after their agreement was signed. Not sure if the F9 agreement was structured like the FL/WN agreement(s) though.

It may also be that ICT leaked to F9 that WN was going to start DEN and they just bailed out now. ICT would know because of the contract agreement.


User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9601 posts, RR: 69
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5931 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

I fly this route 3-4 times a year and the loads are quite healthy, and the tickets are far from cheap. Even with the upgauge to the E190 this has been the case. Booking 3 weeks out shows most seats full. Bummer.

Hopefully Alaska will offer a once a day SEA-ICT-SEA rotation for the aerospace traffic.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5919 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
It may also be that ICT leaked to F9 that WN was going to start DEN and they just bailed out now. ICT would know because of the contract agreement.

Very well could be. The routes in the agreement haven't been disclosed yet, but I would imagine ATL remains one. I would think DEN, DAL, STL, and PHX could all be mixed in.



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5888 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
but I would imagine ATL remains one.

I've been told by a reliable source that ATL will not remain, but things change...


User currently offlineUNITED91 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5873 times:

I'm surprised, I've taken that flight many times on F9, sad to see it go. Always seemed full, but then again that doesn't make it profitable.

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2634 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

I believe that UA is still on the route though. I guess that DEN-ICT just doesn' t really have enuf to support two carriers.

 


User currently offlinealphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
It may also be that ICT leaked to F9 that WN was going to start DEN and they just bailed out now. ICT would know because of the contract agreement.

Yeah, I'm sure the folks at ICT go around sabotaging themselves all the time.  



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

Quoting alphascan (Reply 14):
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
It may also be that ICT leaked to F9 that WN was going to start DEN and they just bailed out now. ICT would know because of the contract agreement.

Yeah, I'm sure the folks at ICT go around sabotaging themselves all the time.

Well, they have a long business relationship with F9. I think if you are going to start giving a subsidy to their competitor, you have a moral reason to notify them of it. Additionally, government contracts are subject to Freedom of Information Act requests, so there really can't be any secrets anyway, so they might as well tell them.


User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5510 times:

Interestingly, the Republic LFs appear to be much healthier than the FL numbers at ICT....

2010 Average: Republic: 86.67% AirTran: 57.14%
2011 Average: Republic: 83.32%; AirTran: 63.69%
2012 Average: Republic: 70.24% AirTran: 44.14%

*2012 Average calculated Jan, Feb, Mar

Source: Transtats Data Elements


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5375 times:
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Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 5):
Well F9 has become an airline that chases revenue guarantees, fails to develop the market, then leaves.

Hmmmm?

The subsidy was available for next year - Frontier did not seek it.

http://www.kansas.com/2012/07/16/241...ntier-airlines-to-end-flights.html

"Frontier did not seek another year of revenue guarantee money from the state’s Affordable Airfares program, she said."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5374 times:

Did ICT subsidze F9 while UA provided non-subsidized service/

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5282 times:
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Quoting mcg (Reply 18):
Did ICT subsidze F9 while UA provided non-subsidized service/

Yep. Just like ICT subsidized Airtran while Delta provided non-subsidized service.

There was a BIG hoo-haa about it back in 2005:

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg35001.html

"The city of Wichita will defend its subsidy to AirTran Airways today in a
response to federal regulators' claims that the publicly funded payments to
the airline discriminate against one of its competitors.

the city will defend its current stance, that the subsidy to
AirTran does not discriminate against Delta Air Lines, which made the
complaint that touched off the Federal Aviation Administration's examination
of Wichita's subsidy program."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineginger727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4912 times:
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I believe that FL just got awarded another year of subsidy just a few days ago.

[Edited 2012-07-17 20:02:00]

User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1297 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4783 times:
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I believe marginal E190 routes will be trimmed in preparation for a downsizing and eventual elimination IMO of the E190. If F9 was simply chasing subsidies they would have sought it again but they did not as Mariner's link states.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1644 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4755 times:
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Quoting clickhappy (Reply 9):
Hopefully Alaska will offer a once a day SEA-ICT-SEA rotation for the aerospace traffic.

TWA did for awhile some many years ago with one daily MD-80 but that was when Boeing owned Wichita. In about a year, there won't be hardly any Boeing left in ICT. Of course the Spirit contract means there is traffic but...doubt it's anything like it used to be.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 22):
TWA did for awhile some many years ago with one daily MD-80 but that was when Boeing owned Wichita. In about a year, there won't be hardly any Boeing left in ICT. Of course the Spirit contract means there is traffic but...doubt it's anything like it used to be.

Couldn't see a flight to SEA from ICT for Boeing traffic for the reason stated. Majority of the Boeing jobs that are/were in ICT are getting moved to OKC (as well as some LAX area jobs). However, I'm not sure how much of the military side would require travel to SEA versus Chicago.



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1268 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 21):
I believe marginal E190 routes will be trimmed in preparation for a downsizing and eventual elimination IMO of the E190

Where would Republic put those aircraft then? Sell them? Scope clause with the legacies allowed them to transfer over the E170s, but no scope clause would allow E190s, so if they draw them down from F9, they would have to sell them. I thought the E190 was doing well for F9.


25 ATWZW170 : I'm sure RAH could make some sort of deal to trade in the 190 for 170/175's in hopes of flying them for AA. This is what, the third time F9 has closed
26 enilria : There was a quote in one of the articles from Valerie Wise, who does Air Service Development for ICT, where she said, "they will move the aircraft to
27 azstar : There hasn't been in the past so I'm skeptical that there will be any in the future.
28 Post contains links mariner : I would have thought Southwest starting ICT-DEN is a lay down misere - a slam dunk - with or without Frontier on the route. However, as several artic
29 GSPSPOT : What's the problem with the E190 from F9's perspective??
30 mikefrommke : Too high CASM in this fuel environment for an LCC. But it really isn't F9's problem anymore, as they are prorate with RP.
31 bahadir : Interestingly enough (or should I say ironically enough) Republic is starting to serve DEN-ICT on Q400s for its United regional operations..
32 mikefrommke : Actually, this may be the sole reason for this change. I believe Republic can't fly any routes for F9 that it flies for its other partners due to con
33 rampart : Q400 is probably the more appropriate equipment for this route, and other similar ones. How long a flight is that? Longer, but probably more cost eff
34 MLI717fan : Could United try to use this as an opportunity to remove F9 competition? I know Republic has to agree with UA to fly those routes, this could be a wa
35 gustywinds : I don't believe there is an issue with Republic operating the Q for UA on the same route that they are operating the E190 for F9. I see Republic will
36 enilria : It's irrelevant which. My point is that if RJET is still prorate to F9 for the E190s they basically have retained part of F9 from a risk perspective,
37 mariner : But from the git-go Republic was likely to retain a part of Frontier. The first clue was the FAPA agreement, when Republic agreed to take a minority
38 enilria : Well, from the git-go the goal was to get F9 earnings off the RJET balance sheet. As I understand the accounting rules, they would still have to repo
39 mariner : I'm not sure why you should see any progress. The airline isn't ready for separation yet. And I think they'd be right. If United started to play that
40 Stapleton : This segway isn't worth any more discussion since there are several other routes that have the UA Q400 and the F9 EMB190s on the route and they haven
41 mikefrommke : The question becomes, would the shareholders want to keep F9 if it starts turning a profit?
42 boeing773ER : Wow, this isn't good news for F9 or ICT, it is a shame they are doing this more and more often. This makes me nervous about the ABE-MCO and MDT-DEN/MC
43 mariner : I don't know why it should make you nervous. DEN-MDT was been excellent and the season has been extended by two months. mariner
44 freakyrat : There was a quote in one of the articles from Valerie Wise, who does Air Service Development for ICT, where she said, "they will move the aircraft to
45 Kcrwflyer : Don't see that happening. twice daily?
46 FWAERJ : SBN having less westbound competition than ICT is an understatement. The only true western hub currently served from SBN (ORD doesn't count) is MSP.
47 GentFromAlaska : For no other reason than geography It seems to me ICT is best served to one of the Dallas and Chicago airports. Soley for the purposes of filing a lar
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