Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17320 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

The previous thread has become quite long and difficult to manage for some users. Please feel free to add your contributions to the new thread.

Part 35 can be found here: New Frontier/Republic #35

Enjoy the website!  


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
219 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17237 times:

Personally I would like to know what steps have been taken to make Frontier an attractive partner for investors or possible merger. It has been sometime since the separation was announced and other than pay and benefits being frozen, no other injection of funds has come to fruition.

If AA/US do in fact team up, we will be left with 3 mega carriers (AA, DL, UA) - two large LCC's (WN, B6), an awesome airline that will do it their way (AS), and a few small airlines (F9, NK, VX). The smaller carriers will more than likely not have pricing power. So how small is too small to be an effective competitor in a market? Frontier may have quite a bit of local traffic in DEN but if the fares are low you still won't make money. Would a tie up of NK and F9 make sense? Of course what does F9 bring to the table - high pilot costs and a hub and spoke network that probably doesn't fit into Spirit's way of doing business. Does Spirit circle until the time is right and swoop in to pick up any pieces? And where is the long term road map that explains the goals and benchmarks the company wants to achieve?

I'll be interested to see how Q2 does for F9. Hopefully no more fuzzy math, write off's, and a profit is posted.



Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16994 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 304):
Myself, I have no idea what this "hometown airline" concept is, or what it is worth, if anything.

Midwest was the "hometown airline" at MKE, but it didn't help Midwest any.

What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1298 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16967 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2):
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.

You have this inception that F9 chose to screw over MKE/Midwest. It continues every thread yet people continuously point out to you YX's failed business model. So MKE customers stayed behind YX while NW added what...12 destinations? The point is, Mariner/others are correct in saying when YX was in trouble, and FL came into town, consumers decided to fly FL over YX. I'm not a huge "loyal" F9 fan, but to suggest that Republic or F9 is responsible for YX's mistakes doesn't make sense. Also, just to point out one example in the past, doesn't make it true for everything else. Legacies were making money back in the 1990s without bag fees; Does that mean they shouldn't charge bag fees today? YX started losing customers and it's business plan back in the early 2000s. I truly am sorry for MKE customers, but this absolute disdain for F9 needs to stop. It wasn't their fault or Bryan Bedford's fault (In fact Bedford tried to add back flights to MKE, but consumers decided to stay with FL/WN). As far as hometowns go, the same most likely holds true in DEN. A "Hometown airline" really only apply to legacies now a days like ATL is DL country and CLT is US territory. Even people in MSP most likely think of DL for their travel plans before they think of the "hometown airline" SY.

On a side note, VX is the "hometown carrier" in SFO, yet they continue to lose money...Just because an airline is based/headquartered in a city doesn't guarantee it any type of revenue premium.

[Edited 2012-07-19 00:29:24]

[Edited 2012-07-19 00:31:48]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5500 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16963 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2):
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.

Midwest Financial Results:

2001: -$15M
2002: -$10M
2003: -$13M
2004: -$43M
2005: -$65M

YX may have kept the passengers, but at a price.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1298 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16952 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 4):
Midwest Financial Results:

2001: -$15M
2002: -$10M
2003: -$13M
2004: -$43M
2005: -$65M

YX may have kept the passengers, but at a price.

Thanks. This supports my example from above


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5500 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16945 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 5):
Thanks. This supports my example from above

Well, and add to that that TPG/NWA paid $450M for YX, then turned around and sold it for $31M to Republic. That's a $419M bath - before Republic ever entered the picture. A great carrier, but they couldn't make it work. And that was WITH a NW codeshare to boot.

Oh wellz...

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25078 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 16933 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2):
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE?

In 2004 things were quite different. Midwest had not bastardized the brand with Saver, the economy wasn't in recession and oil was at $35 a barrel.

Even so, the airline couldn't provide the classic service at dirt cheap prices and expect to make money.

In 2008, just four years later, Midwest lost half a billion dollars, partly because of losses (charges) accumulated at that time.

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-19 01:34:53]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 16772 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
You have this inception that F9 chose to screw over MKE/Midwest.

Ok, and how does what I just said have anything to do with that? I didn't even mention F9, and I was simply rebuffing the claim that being a "hometown" airline is worthless.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 4):
Midwest Financial Results:

2001: -$15M
2002: -$10M
2003: -$13M
2004: -$43M
2005: -$65M

I like how you cut it off right before they started making money again:

Midwest Reports 2006 Profit! (by N917ME Jan 25 2007 in Civil Aviation)

They also did make a profit every year from 1987 through 2000.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25078 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 16670 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):
I didn't even mention F9, and I was simply rebuffing the claim that being a "hometown" airline is worthless.

That's exactly the point - being the hometown airline did prove to be worthless to Midwest - it cost the airline dear.

Midwest may have won battles along the way - but it lost the war.

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-19 13:07:19]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5500 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16608 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):

I like how you cut it off right before they started making money again:

Ok, well I like how you cut off right before they bought the farm, but that wasn't the point.  
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):
They also did make a profit every year from 1987 through 2000.

I didn't go back that far because you were addressing a 2004 "success" of theirs. I just showed that 2004 (and 2005) were anything but "successful" from a profit and loss point of view. I included 2001-2003 because they showed the trend leading up to the 2004 "success". I stopped at 2005 because I don't know when NW pulled back on MKE and I wasn't clear on their own operating philosophy at that time.

I'm not disputing that YX was able to hold their own or whatever against NW - indeed, their revenues seemed to soar in the 2004-2006 period. However, their losses tripled in 2004 vs the preceding 3 years - then increased significantly again in 2005. I think that points to the "how" of their growth - they chose to take a loss to defend their marketshare, and it appears that it worked.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25078 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16582 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The wash-up from the summer should prove interesting. As in the last thread, we know that GTF is getting good loads, and BIS as well, it seems:

http://bismarcktribune.com/business/...0-bbb6-11e1-acbd-001a4bcf887a.html

"Frontier Airlines filled 97 percent of its available seating capacity in the first month of operation."

Which (without an actual l/f) seems to have held up in June:

http://bismarcktribune.com/business/...2-cc71-11e1-8f83-0019bb2963f4.html

"Frontier Airlines helped Bismarck airplane boardings reach another record.

The Bismarck Airport had 21,140 passengers for June 2012 compared to 16,055 for June 2011, a 31.6 percent increase."


I don't have any actual numbers for MDT, but dickie birds tell me it has been knock-your-socks-off, which is presumably why they have extended the season.

And according to one dickie bird, there'll be a new city in October. I haven't confirmed it with any other source yet, so I'll just say that it isn't too far from Chicago and has a SCASD grant attached to it.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-19 15:11:36]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1298 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16507 times:

That doesn't surprise me. SBN has been on the radar for a while now. If true, that'll leave just TOL and STS as cities that were awarded SCASD grants with the goal of getting F9 service. I'd like to see them give STS a try next summer.

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16437 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

And according to one dickie bird, there'll be a new city in October. I haven't confirmed it with any other source yet, so I'll just say that it isn't too far from Chicago and has a SCASD grant attached to it.

mariner

F9 your SBN gate and ticket counter is open and ready. Also With Notre Dame Football season coming up SBN-DEN flights might up gauge on football weekends to A319's like Delta upgrades RJ flights to DTW to DC9-50s and other assorted mainline aircraft.

People in SBN are already getting antsy on the airports Facebook page but I pointed out to them that it takes close to a year to work out details such as getting Menzies Aviation in SBN with all the ground support equipment, ticket counter computers, signing contracts etc. In fact the airport said when the grant was announced that it would take till September to start service.

We used to have service to DEN on one flight a day on United back in the 70's on a B727-100 but that was really to big of and aircraft for the route except maybe on football weekends.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25078 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 16426 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 13):
In fact the airport said when the grant was announced that it would take till September to start service.

September? If - stress "if" - the dickie bird is correct, it will take about a month longer.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16387 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think the dickie bird is correct. I have friends that work as E190 and Airbus pilots and also a friend in route planning at F9. A lot has been going on behind the scenes at SBN and at F9 to make this happen. I also really feel that this can work this time even without the SCASD grant but the grant can go a long way to paying for the startup costs etc. Also look at all the advertising SBN gives Allegiant and they are SBN's most successful LCC. If one flight a day turns out better that F9 imagined then I can see them adding frequency.

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16287 times:

Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16207 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

From this mornings South Bend (IN) Tribune Newspaper.

SOUTH BEND - A news conference has been called for Monday to announce the addition of a new destination and new carrier at the South Bend Regional Airport.

The new destination will offer Michiana area passengers a new low-fare option when it comes to booking travel from the airport, according to a Thursday release from the airport. Officials could not be reached for additional comment.

The airport has said in the past that its top three markets it has identified are Dallas, Denver and New York.


http://www.southbendtribune.com/busi...chc-01-04-20120720,0,1528871.story


User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16081 times:

Speaking of dickie birds, is there any chatter from the dickie birds about F9 service to MSO? There was an article in the Missoulian a few months ago suggesting that the Missoula airport was trying to figure out how to attract F9, has there been any progress??

Mariner, thanks in advance  


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1320 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16059 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):

Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package

I sure hope not! I know DL is not NW, but when Frontier added one small route at MCI, DL sure took the NW form. Memphis was, and I think will be a disaster. Right now I would stick to Denver, and the small routes with no competition. I love what is happening in Knoxville and Omaha, identify a few non-Denver routes that will work. I don't want to see it at Memphis.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15992 times:

I started writing this yesterday, and saved it to post later maybe after proofing etc.

However, overnight, a terrible tragedy struck the area in Aurora, in the form of a senseless shooting at a movie theatre. I suppose this makes a lot of us reflect on our own situations, and what's important, and how quickly things can be unthinkably changed.

May somehow all those affected in this horror find their way forward in such manner that more damage to themselves or those important to them now can be avoided. And even though it's most likely not really enough, I suppose that we can only offer condolences, and may there be whatever support is needed.

May eventually there be peace for all.

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 1):
I'll be interested to see how Q2 does for F9. Hopefully no more fuzzy math, write off's, and a profit is posted.

And of course, whether or not F9 is able to post a profit here will be key to its future, as well as that what may be of the entire U.S. airline industry.

If there are eventually three mega carriers in the U.S., and a couple of giant LCCs, along with a handful of other niche carriers, this may for the most part be what will evolve.

As for the niche carriers, AS and HA have their established place. NK is making its own path and seems to have an uncanny ability to shift with the winds if it needs to and prosper. After that, with F9, VX, and to an extent SY, what will be left that can be considered "major"?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
Even people in MSP most likely think of DL for their travel plans before they think of the "hometown airline" SY.

On a side note, VX is the "hometown carrier" in SFO, yet they continue to lose money...Just because an airline is based/headquartered in a city doesn't guarantee it any type of revenue premium.

If on the chance that both DL and WN really have no real interest in fares being too low at MSP, I would think that SY can can at least pull from the edges and give some fare relief to those around MSP, and maybe they can continue to sustain there. SY seems most like a vacation carrier, flying to what appears to be vacation destinations, and probably attracts the most price-sensitive. Only concern now is that NK has arrived at MSP as well.

VX has got to turn a profit soon, and start on a path to get a return on its investment. Yes, it has its niche, it has its following, but until some positive $$$$ start showing up, I can only think that at some point, its days have to be numbered. And since VX is quite new, have they built up that kind of loyalty needed in the SF area, and area quite full of activity and well diversified? But is it really enough?


Now, the big question is about F9????? They are DEN, they were born there, raised there, the name has been around just about forever in the DEN area (Frontier 1) and they are the familiar name brand in somewhat of a niche area which is quite isolated, yet an island of large, continuous activity, which is even both alluring and appealing. The Denver area in itself generates quite a high number of originating air passengers, (since driving to just about anywhere population-wise is very lengthy and timely) as well as being quite attractive on its own to be able to draw a high amount of incoming air passengers both those that are VFR and those that are not. Thus, it would be somewhat off to think that the high pax numbers at DEN are generated only because of super low fares...... yes, yields are below average, but not that far below considering.

Locals are predicting that DEN will have around 62M pax by 2020 - some 7-8 years away, and about 9M more than the pax count of nearly 53M in 2011. This is about a 1%-2% increase each year, which could quite well be doable. So the prediction is the pax will be there, some carrier(s) has(have) got to be there for this, and well enough to support three majors and then some. And if F9 can show positive cash, it will most like have a good future providing it sticks to its strength - DEN.

And finally, may there be peace for all.

  

[Edited 2012-07-20 11:28:41]

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15947 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
However, overnight, a terrible tragedy struck the area in Aurora, in the form of a senseless shooting at a movie theater. I suppose this makes a lot of us reflect on our own situations, and what's important, and how quickly things can be unthinkably changed.

May somehow all those affected in this horror find their way forward in such manner that more damage to themselves or those important to them now can be avoided. And even though it's most likely not really enough, I suppose that we can only offer condolences, and may there be whatever support is needed.
F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.

Additionally as short fuse airfares are very expensive. I wanted to add and to the families for those who were wounded in this senseless attack.

[Edited 2012-07-20 12:15:11]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15925 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 21):
F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.

Unfortunately, this obviously is a sensitive time when so many feelings are in shock and still so raw. And with that, I would think that any Colorado entity, or really most other entities, are going to find a way to offer what comfort that they can to those affected, in a spirit of common good.

And for all of the activity and history that goes on in the Denver area, yesterday's tragedy is one that could have been done without.

  


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25078 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15907 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):
Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package

A million bucks may be very attractive, but I'd walk away - unless MEM can give iron clad guarantees that Delta/Northwest won't go doolally, as it did with Frontier at MEM last time, as it did with LAX-MSP and as it did with MCI-MSP.

Now, in view of rumored recent happenings, I suppose it is possible that somehow Siegel (or BB) may have smoked some sort of peace pipe with Delta, but I don't trust 'em and I cheered when I saw that Southwest is starting MCI-MSP - what goes around comes around.

Old grudges aside, I don't think that MEM is particularly attractive as a destination and I believe that Frontier can find other more interesting and less potentially volatile use of the aircraft.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1298 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15866 times:

Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.

25 GentFromAlaska : As service to BIS and GTF is flown using the E90 with according to my count is 98 seats. I wonder if either city would rate a A319 at least across th
26 Post contains links and images point2point : It seems that UA has done this, as there is another thread here.... UA Providing Free Tickets To CO Tragedy Families (by maxamuus Jul 20 2012 in Civi
27 CIDFlyer : Curious, I would like to know, how is F9 doing at CID?
28 MSYtristar : When WN announced MCI-MSY eff 11/3, I knew the F9 service was as good as gone.
29 blhp68 : And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split betwee
30 smoot4208 : Neither of those routes make sense with F9's current strategy. I actually think MCI-CUN/SJD/PVR/RSW probably does ok for them and will at least stick
31 Post contains links and images mariner : It seems the dickie bird was right abut SBN: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...stop-between-denver-140000586.html "Frontier Announces Nonstop Ser
32 MSYtristar : That is true. I'm quite sure F9 lost a boatload of money in MCI. I can't imagine YX before it did much better. It's interesting to me that F9 can't e
33 smoot4208 : I was thinking the same thing for OMA. I know several years ago, NW was rumored to start OMA-CUN if they got FIS. I wonder if F9/Apple would try OMA-
34 PlanesNTrains : Did you "spend a year there one weekend"? lol No surprise. Terrible tragedy, but - and pardon me in saying so - I'm not sure how necessary this type
35 mariner : One of the Airtran CEO's once said he wished he could close the airline down altogether in September/October. I'm sympathetic. Frontier is doing some
36 GentFromAlaska : It sends a very strong message in the Lead, Follow or Get Out the Way mindset. With that said F9 should be commended for stepping up as a corporate c
37 GentFromAlaska : From the OAG thread. F9 DEN-TYS SEP 0.6>0.2 OCT 0.6>0.1 NOV 0.6>0.2 DEC 0.6>0.0 Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal red
38 Post contains images MSYtristar : I'm sympathetic to a point because I do know that September/October are slower months industry wide; however, for a small airline like F9 in which DE
39 mikefrommke : The TYS-MCO service is also being reduced, but not going away altogether (1x weekly I think). That route is served from MCO, so it is mostly independ
40 Post contains links mariner : I guess so. Last November, Frontier publicly warned that unless winter business picked up the route would go seasonal. http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2
41 dbo861 : Very interesting..if true. I'm sure DSM could support 3-4x a week on an E190 November thru spring break. This would also be nice. Is DSM-MCO coming b
42 Post contains images point2point : UA has CR7s on this route, so it's not that n/s service isn't there. I suppose since UA was on this route prior to F9, and then F9 entered, probably U
43 mariner : That's surely true, but I think it is simpler than that. Frontier has survived against United in several of the smaller stations (MSN and GRR, eg) an
44 yellowtail : we all do, but obviously not F9
45 strfyr51 : How in the World is VX the San Francisco Home Town Airline?? United has Been in SFO since 1937 and VX claims Hometown?? Cheez! There's a National Monu
46 0NEWAIR0 : Don Carty was CEO at American, not Virgin America. He is Chairman of the Board at VX. The CEO that was ousted was Fred Reid and that was a complicate
47 GentFromAlaska : Interesting F9 doesn't swap TYS to the E90 during the off season. Its too bad CHA couldn't be integrated into the service somehow; possibly CHA-TYS-D
48 Post contains links mariner : Some good news for COS - at least at the airport. Here's the guts of it: http://www.gazette.com/articles/numbers-142154-flights-passenger.html "Fronti
49 smoot4208 : Today during US Airways investor call, they announced they had made a deal with Republic to re-aquire 5 E190s with 2 going to US in the 4th quarter an
50 mikefrommke : I imagine the days of the E90 in Frontier colors are numbered.
51 mariner : Apropos of which, COS-SEA is a seasonal flight that was originally announced to end mid-September. That season has now been extended to mid-November.
52 smoot4208 : Wonder if any routes will be dropped with the loss of those 5 airplanes
53 freakyrat : That's probably one of the reasons why SBN-DEN will be operated by an A319.
54 smoot4208 : I imagine the SBN service is usually the freed up plane that would've done TYS this winter. US Airways stated they would enter service with them in 4
55 CIDFlyer : I really hope CID doesnt lose service, we just got it with the E90...Hopefully we will get an airbus
56 FRNT787 : It will all depend on how the service is doing. One question would be rather the whole fleet goes, or just the 5. I suspect if it is just the 5 CID h
57 smoot4208 : Does Republic have any more orders for the E190?
58 FRNT787 : As far as I know, they do not. 5 were originally brought in on lease. Then, 10 were acquired from US Airways. About a year later, a tentative deal wa
59 IllinoisMan : Geez, so now it looks like all the E190s are on their way out? The flip-flopping just never seems to stop over there, does it? It wasn't too long ago
60 smoot4208 : As of now, only 5
61 mikefrommke : The EJets being brought in was a Midwest decision. The 717s were on their way out the door and had to be replaced with something. It's clear you disl
62 FRNT787 : As mentioned above, the 717s were heading out before BB was running Midwest. After Midwest returned 16 of the 25 717s they were operating, Boeing beg
63 mariner : Hmmm? I guess you missed that Frontier is being separated from Republic to be a stand alone airline. From the time that separation was first discusse
64 AirframeAS : I believe the 5 E190 aircraft are more than likely the ones that were never painted in the F9 livery. Someone mentioned this past April that the two
65 Post contains images point2point : Just to see a graphic of what is involved with RAH/F9 and the E90s, below is a map of the routes that I believe are flown currently for F9 by RAH. The
66 mariner : Well, indeed. It isn't business as usual. It isn't just that there is a new CEO. It is that the airline is being refashioned. Yes, there are routes t
67 Post contains images point2point : If the route is doing well, maybe at this point the people at PVU may start calling UA and see if the can get something there. After all, UA has been
68 mariner : Well, they may. But the airport has been chasing other airlines so long I wouldn't be sure of their success. Or the airport may do something radical,
69 Post contains images point2point : On that we couldn't agree more.......
70 slcdeltarumd11 : Why was this filing made? "Republic Airlines filed with the DOT for flexibility in destination on 4 of its currently held DCA slots being utilized on
71 mariner : If we're talking about the same filing (hard to know without a link) then what it says - flexibility. I doubt they will restore MKE-DCA to 3 x daily,
72 GentFromAlaska : As regional flying and decisions go; not wanting to drift to far off topic how does DL decision to ka-bash Com-Air regional flying side of their opera
73 Post contains links mariner : Frontier Q2: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/republ...ings-reports-second-232000924.html "For the quarter ended June 30, 2012, Frontier posted pre-tax i
74 AirframeAS : For those who do not know, N507LX is now in the UAX colors with the globe on the tail. I saw it yesterday sitting at either gate A62 or A64. Revenue s
75 GentFromAlaska : This item caught my attention. Bedford said. “We must continue the ongoing effort to restructure our small regional jet operations so that we can r
76 mariner : It is my reading that he was talking about Republic contract flying - "small regional jets" - not the Frontier unit, although, given the CASM which i
77 smoot4208 : Is F9 gaining/returning any airplanes other than the 5 E190s in the 3rd Quarter?
78 Post contains images point2point : ALRIGHTY! F9 finally getting in more $$$$ than they are spending, and this is very good news. With F9 being DEN-centric for the most part (and I won'
79 ATWZW170 : I agree it is wonderful that Frontier has finally shown positive cash flow but as a ULCC a single hub doesn't work. Right now things are going ok but
80 FRNT787 : From the conference call: Republic has a tentative deal to sell 5 E190s back to US Airways. Additionally, there is a deal working right now to move 5
81 Joeljack : To me, the better question is what would happen to DCA-OMA? They want to add a third frequency and if they remove the E190, the Airbus are just too b
82 Post contains images point2point : The last thing that I want to do is appear disagreeable...... but it seems that every airline (or business for the matter) can find a niche, and some
83 Post contains links slcdeltarumd11 : The filing has me also confused on what frontier is trying to do for multiple reasons. Republic Seeks To Shift DCA Slot From MKE To OMA (by LAXintl J
84 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : Decent F9 three day airfare sale http://media.frontierairlines.com/ar....cfm?article_id=5374&view_id=1290&
85 stlgph : the latest now being Republic not seeing Frontier separation until first part of 2013 --- sale or spinoff ... coming from today's forecast presentatio
86 slcdeltarumd11 : so spinoff......not to be a negative nancy but frontier can say that all they want but we all know no one is even interested. I cant even see someone
87 FRNT787 : The E190 are not gone immediately. Currently there are 17 in service. 2 go back to lessors rather shortly. 5 go to US Air starting with 2 in Q4, and
88 mariner : It has always seemed beyond unlikely. As BB said about a year ago, no one wanted Frontier in in bk - except Southwest - why should it be different no
89 Joeljack : I wonder if F9 is thinking that could do a 25 minute turn in OMA and send the aircraft to COS. Do a COS-OMA-DCA at 2x daily, take 60 passengers per O
90 stlgph : He included the "sell" in several interviews. Including one with my team. At this point Republic would be smart to remain an investor. It ensures the
91 mariner : Usually when he was asked about "the sale." It's shorthand. He is "selling" it - to investors. There comes a point - as happened to me in these threa
92 stlgph : Except I'm listening to a number of interviews from February 6 and 7. Yes, he did mention co-investing in a private equity group into Frontier. But y
93 mariner : A direct sale has always been on the table - it still is. All the options are open - but they are realists. It's been reported that AMR has "an inter
94 Post contains images point2point : Just curious, but by what measure is DEN rated the lowest airfare hub in America? I think that PHX, LAX, LAS, SFO, and MCO (if that can be considered
95 stlgph : Right now, Frontier is at the right size with its equipment and network where it can significantly shift its focus and operations into an ULCC and mim
96 mariner : Nothing to do with conventional wisdom for me - I'm absolutely on the other side of that. DEN has always been Frontier's best strength - and it's gre
97 mikefrommke : The current problem with that is the DCA slots are owned by Republic and need to be flown by Republic. So in order to fly them with Airbus, some chan
98 OzarkD9S : A lot of things didn't work for Skybus, but they did have two bases: CMH and GSO, not that you could connect at either place without buying two diffe
99 rampart : Apart from the slots issue... DCA-STL-COS would make more sense. Alternately, DCA-OKC-COS. I don't think there's enough traffic between OMA and COS.
100 Post contains images mariner : I think that's an interesting idea. It might better explain the application to transfer MKE-DCA slots to OMA-DCA. I think 3 x daily OMA-DCA would be
101 ATWZW170 : Mariner - Hearing that there are other cities on the way, all small. Your dickie birds doing any singing? I've been told they are markets that WN will
102 stlgph : Best bet is to probably look up and see what small/medium airports are currently offering subsidies for service and place your bets starting there. T
103 GentFromAlaska : I agree. COS with its significant military/government population in the greater COS catchment area previously discussed in the DCA beyond perimeter s
104 smoot4208 : It would seem that amy new destinations would have to be seasonal. With losing at least 5 E190s and possibly 10, next summers schedule would already b
105 Post contains images mariner : The only cheep I've heard is for Apple: BDL-PUJ as 1 x weekly, Christmas to April. mariner
106 gustywinds : You heard about DSM-CUN too, no?
107 Post contains links mariner : Yes - as DSM-CUN-STL-DSM to clear customs at STL on the way back. The dickie bird insists it is happening, but I just checked the Apple site and BDL-
108 ATWZW170 : That does seem correct - no BOS, looks like B6 is taking that flying.
109 rampart : If you're bored, you might also want to look at sum total of multiple bases surrounding a metro area. Your large bases would compare to a cluster of
110 smoot4208 : RFD-MBJ also looks like a new route this winter
111 Post contains links and images mariner : That's an odd one. Frontier originally intended to fly BOS-CUN/PUJ this winter and filed it with DOT Charter - docket #12-071: http://ostpxweb.ost.do
112 smoot4208 : HUX would seem to make sense; but I'm not sure if Pasco would fare any differently than FAR or FAT.
113 Buddys747 : I'm trying to find the link on MDT's website but not sure where it is. If I recall correctly the flights to DEN were sold out May and June. No July i
114 stlgph : It's a non Southwest city, so ... you never know. Also have to wonder if Redmond is offering a subsidy with Allegiant pulling out.
115 ATWZW170 : I do know that MDT did so well that the season was extended. Sometimes it is the smaller cities that surprise you the most - such as MSN. I was hoping
116 stlgph : Hasn't stopped Spirit from doing well. Wed returns at some point in the fall going into the winter. There's also a 4th weekly flight running at least
117 ATWZW170 : Do you know what day the flight will operate? I'm looking online and can't find any new flights to MCO-BMI.
118 stlgph : Interesting - when I was looking for flights for my parents around Christmas it had a Sunday nonstop option loaded - now it's a connection through Den
119 GentFromAlaska : I thought that was a condition of subscription to be an A-netter. I would add anything south on Hwy 15 to the Maryland state-line. If your flying wes
120 ATWZW170 : Sounds like the NMB has told the pilots for RAH to go back to the table and keep working. Hopefully this can be resolved quickly and fairly.
121 Post contains links and images mariner : Hopefully, yes, but I'm not holding my breath. Things aren't getting any prettier in Milwaukee - and I'm sure the protest made the pilots feel better
122 IllinoisMan : Remember that contest Frontier Airlines had a few years ago to name the badger on the tail, the ads they had saying how happy they were to be here in
123 mariner : Indeed - after they lost unsustainable amounts of money at MKE and nearly sent Frontier to the wall. And none of your recriminations will change a si
124 sideflare75 : It was actually September of 2008 when the return of the 717's first was announced and began. It coincided with the announcement of the Republic 170'
125 mke717spotter : He's not making it any easier on himself by saying that MKE will keep the seven flights it has now, especially since we know RHI is going to end and
126 F9animal : I remember the contest well. I also remember how hopeful we were to see MKE grow. I also remember how excited we were to see Frontier growing like cr
127 mariner : As I said, I think he's wasting his breath. Whatever he says there will be bitter complaints of broken promises. And I've only ever heard talk of one
128 IllinoisMan : Uncle Timmy essentialy told Airbus to "pound sand" when they offered the A320 to YX. What they should have done was deploy the A320 for trans-con and
129 mariner : This whole mess began with a mortally wound - by Airtran - Midwest at MKE. Now MKE was the financially healthy Southwest at MKE. So MKE is extremely
130 FRNT787 : That sounds awfully expensive. Especially comsidering they seem to have not been able to afford the 25 717 lease payments. YX decided to send the fir
131 PlanesNTrains : I think he was referring to F9/RAH, not whatever went on at YX before they came into the picture. It's fun to ponder what-if's that involve shiny new
132 Post contains links stlgph : Let the speculation begin. Check out Frontier's facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/frontierairlines
133 Post contains links gustywinds : Their Facebook page states - Next week we’ll announce new routes with destinations in six states - two of which are NEW states for us! So let’s ha
134 GentFromAlaska : I can't get the F9 web URL and interactive route map to load so I'm using the list below. I think its safe to rule out Hawaii. I take new as airports
135 kingcavalier : I am predicting more MCO or LAS. I wouldn't be surprised to see COS - LAS. I wouldn't mind seeing AVL or GSO service to MCO. I would love to see BTV -
136 GentFromAlaska : I of course would love to see Juneau (JNU) Alaska possibly connected to the new BLI service as one of the four states with existing service. Its not a
137 stlgph : they have served Connecticut, but I think it would be safe to include any state they aren't presently serving as a 'new state' despite prior services
138 GentFromAlaska : Yes both Massachusetts and Connecticut appear in the drop down menu of states on the Facebook ballot. I also thought i saw Idaho amongst the other st
139 F9animal : What ultimately happened to YX is tragic. No matter how you slice it, YX was in major trouble. RAH prolonged the presence of YX, and really did try t
140 Post contains links mariner : Former Frontier CEO Jeff Potter back in the game? Ryan International (not Ryanair!) which is in bk wants him to restructure their airline: http://www.
141 ATWZW170 : Can Potter do both The Boyd Group and Ryan International? And $50,000 per month for a salary is pretty steep. I would have a hard time accepting, as a
142 Post contains links and images mariner : JP was only announced as CEO of Boyd Group above a month ago, July 2: http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/boy...ional-welcomes-jeff-140000463.html "July
143 smoot4208 : Any airport scheduled Press releases posted for next week? That may give some insight to the new routes.
144 PacificF27 : Is there anything new with STS? As I recall a grant was pending. Denver would be a great addition to Alaska's service to SAN, LAX, PDX and SEA. Am sti
145 airlinewatcher1 : Any chance we could see DEN-ALB, BUF, BOS, or CVG? These might be a stretch, but I can dream. ALB wants a non-stop to DEN, and has been trying to get
146 Post contains images AirframeAS : I don't understand what your problem with F9 is, but man.... you have got to stop blaming for the demise of Midwest Airlines on Frontier and RAH. The
147 Post contains links FRNT787 : They all went to Mexicana Click. With the demise of Mexicana group, they went back to Boeing. Volotea Airlines, a European startup is taking some of
148 F9animal : Awesome news for Ryan! They got themselves a hell of a CEO, and Potter will no doubt turn them around. I love Potter, and he is genuine. The employee
149 mariner : Not to burst your bubble, F9Animal, but I wouldn't want to turn back the clock to that. mariner
150 GentFromAlaska : The Herb Kelleher effect I suppose.
151 F9animal : Yes, he is. Dressing up on Halloween, and visiting everyone. Walking penguins through the terminal. Working the gates, ticket counter, in-flight, and
152 iowaman : DEN-BOS operated until 2002: I think I would give WN almost as good of a shot of serving ALB and BUF-DEN as F9. WN/UA also flies DEN-BOS currently (W
153 AVLAirlineFreq : AZA has scheduled a press conference for tomorrow (August 6) to announce a third airline serving the airport. Does anyone think F9 is moving from PHX?
154 GentFromAlaska : The current oil boom and almost zero unemployment combined with the wages being paid should allow for some extra disposable cash. I hear the casino's
155 Post contains images point2point : Curious as to why anyone considers this to be a "trap" for F9, or anything else with a negative connotation? If the $$$$ are there, which is pretty m
156 GentFromAlaska : CKV (Clarksville, TN) 60 miles NNW of BNA on the Tennessee-Kentucky state-line just opened a new terminal in July and was recently awarded $2.4 state
157 Post contains images uncgso : GSO is still offering those incentives
158 Post contains images point2point : I would also question if this announcement is going to be done all at one time, or could it possibly be done with a few announcements throughout the
159 AVLAirlineFreq : Fair point--F9 has simply said "Starting tomorrow...", but it does appear they will all be announced some time this week.
160 MSYtristar : There's only so much that can be done from DEN when all is said and done. $$$ is there now, but why is diversifying a bad thing? It's not. If the air
161 mariner : He's a good guy, and, at the beginning, he did a lot great stuff - CUN and ANC being two of them. But after 1st LAX he seemed to lose his way. Mostly
162 OzarkD9S : Couldn't have responded to the question better myself tristar, thanks!
163 Kcrwflyer : A new state indeed. The market is there.. just need an airline.
164 Post contains images point2point : Okay. And now that all of the armchair CEOs are here, I would ask, where would F9 want to expand? It seems that every time they attempt to, only bad
165 Post contains links mariner : That's the question that has intrigued the "armchair CEO's" of the message boards since I first started following the airline in 1998. And it's a tou
166 SANFan : I get the feeling from most of the posts in this thread, talking about F9 being pretty much a one-hub airline, that most are not thinking of COS as a
167 mariner : COS hasn't been written off by me, but someone - either BB or Siegel - said they're going to attempt to just replicate DEN at COS. I think COS has po
168 mariner : A dickie bird chirped to check MDT/ABE-MCO this winter on the Frontier website booking engine. MDT-MCO presently 4 x weekly is shown as 5 x weekly. A
169 smoot4208 : I hope F9 isn't announcing DEN-AZA. AZA does have lower costs, but they didn't do so well in PIE or HOU.
170 AirframeAS : I honestly dont think it's IWA-AZA.
171 smoot4208 : The schedule is now loaded through 3/17/13. Looking at later January, DSM-MCO, DSM-TPA, OMA-TPA, and DEN-MZT are not loaded. Last year their seasonal
172 Post contains links AVLAirlineFreq : As noted in this thread AZA To Announce 3rd Airline 8/6 (by AVLAirlineFreq Aug 5 2012 in Civil Aviation) and on the Frontier route map, it appears F9
173 gustywinds : I don't believe F9 is moving shop from PHX to AZA. The AZA service simply supplements PHX which shows it continuing at 5 flights a day. FLIGHT DATE S
174 AVLAirlineFreq : Good catch. Just before you posted, I edited my post.
175 Post contains images point2point : DEN-PHX is currently served by F9, as well as UA, US, and WN, one of those four-carrier routes in DEN. At least with DEN-AZA, F9 will have some marke
176 GentFromAlaska : DEN-AZA gets cataloged as one of the four current/existing states column in that it already flies to Arizona correct? We should still see three exist
177 Post contains links gustywinds : Official F9 press release - http://media.frontierairlines.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5375
178 UNITED91 : In addition to DEN-AZA already being announced. I think we could possibly see CLT and BUF or ALB being announced as well.[Edited 2012-08-06 12:42:04][
179 Post contains images point2point : I would be weary of CLT. I think that WN has its eyes on that. Unless of course, F9 wants to find itself in another three way dogfight with US and pr
180 nkops : ACY..... come on!!! filler filler
181 Post contains images UNITED91 : I agree, BUF seems like the better choice, however I know ALB has been trying to get a DEN flight for a while now. Their Facebook page says 6 new des
182 mariner : Not exactly. It says new routes with destinations in six states (with two of them as new states). Of course, it's possible (even probable) it means s
183 AirframeAS : Since I am no longer with F9, I am out if the loop of things...... Is the Lav Removal Mod project still going to happen? I see it kind of a pointless
184 FRNT787 : On the call they were talking about the seat addition projects. The A320s were completed up to 168. The plan I last saw was getting the A319s to 141
185 slcdeltarumd11 : ACY would be amazing and a true long shot. I will keep my fingers crossed. It would be a new state but i think they would have to do DEN. Spirit owns
186 smoot4208 : MCI-RSW also appears to not be returning this winter. For tomorrow's announcement, while I can't reveal the source, will be MCO-GSO
187 AirframeAS : That mod doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially on the long haul routes with only two lavs. Some of the AS 738's have 4 lavs and are use
188 GentFromAlaska : IAG would in my mind be a seasonal route. Not considering traffic Its about two driving hours from BUF and an hour or more from ROC both which I reca
189 freakyrat : Allegiant already fly's from FNL to AZA
190 IllinoisMan : WN operates out of the reliever airports in the LA basin, and they will eventually end up flying out of AZA in the future. I doubt it will happen unt
191 Post contains links mariner : 60 gates, in five years - maybe: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/loc...8-b974-11e1-95e4-001a4bcf887a.html "Gateway airport plans $1.4B terminal with
192 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : Here's the DEN-AZA announcement from USA Today http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...nnounce-new-airline-today/818499/1
193 slcdeltarumd11 : Frontier is officially willing to try anything
194 Post contains links mariner : Frontier couldn't wish for a better press for AZA: http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/SoutheastEditorials/168195 Frontier's presence proves Gateway
195 ATWZW170 : And GSO it is. New spot on their route map. The webpage does not have destinations as of yet loaded but I truly hope they connect GSO to both DEN/MCO.
196 nkops : Isn't it 4?? Didnt they say six new routes.... Congrats GSO.... so who is next???
197 ATWZW170 : I thought it was going to be one a day this week and that SBN was part of the six but maybe not. Mariner - lean on your peeps and get them to sing! Wh
198 Post contains images Kcrwflyer : GSO, Another airport with Allegiant. Another airport where they'll be competing to Orlando.
199 gustywinds : The GSO schedule is now in the GDS (Mon, Wed & Sat) - FLIGHT DATE SEGMENT DPTR ARVL MLS EQP ELPD MILES SM 1 F9 754 17NOV MCO GSO 830A 1005A 319 1.
200 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : Here's the interactive route map http://www.frontierairlines.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map. As a pixel on the route map goes the MHT-MCO s
201 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : The federal GSA published the new federal government fiscal year FY-13 contract city pairs airfare awards today. http://apps.fas.gsa.gov/citypairs/sea
202 Post contains images mariner : Even dickie birds go on vacation - I'm in the dark about all this. I'm quite enjoying it. I was surprised about that, but I guess it has worked for t
203 rj777 : Wait....so does this mean F9's non-stop MKE-OMA service is coming BACK?
204 GentFromAlaska : Only F9 can answer that. Its going to be interesting to watch the OAG threads across the next month or two. I've seen city pairs reinstated after a c
205 freakyrat : SBN-DEN was already announced two weeks ago. As far as Allegiant goes, They also serve SBN and my sneaky suspicion is the F9 and G4 are going to share
206 ATWZW170 : Now the Regional Elite is going away who knows what will happen with ground work. I don't think anyone else does ground in SBN. Regional Elite does th
207 FutureFO : THere are 4 more cities to be announced this week. AZA and GSO are 2. 6 total. And in 2 new states not yet served by F9. NC is currently not served by
208 mariner : Or maybe - three: AZA, GSO and MCO. Four, if you count DEN. It may be six new routes, but it doesn't actually say so. mariner
209 PlanesNTrains : Rhetorically speaking, I wouldn't be opposed to a G4+F9 combination. Certain economies of scale, vision's that appear to be gradually aligning, and of
210 freakyrat : "Now the Regional Elite is going away who knows what will happen with ground work. I don't think anyone else does ground in SBN. Regional Elite does t
211 smoot4208 : Looks like my source was correct. If F9 isn't afraid to go against G4 (DSM-MCO/TPA last winter), and now MCO-GSO, perhaps they'll try COS-LAS
212 Post contains images point2point : How about DEN-MBJ as part of the Apple stuff? Just thought that I'd throw that in there......
213 Post contains links mariner : I'm not sure they would include Jamaica as a "state" but - maybe. However, I am pleased to see that DSM-CUN is now on the Apple schedule: http://www.
214 freakyrat : If SBN had an FIS facility already we could see SBN-CUN for Apple Vacations. Allegiant has talked about this route for the past several years for week
215 stlgph : Trenton, NJ now appears on the route map.
216 nkops : Trenton to Orlando it is.... interesting choice here, I never would have guessed this one TSA will have to set up shop at TTN now as I believe there i
217 gustywinds : I never would've guessed this one. FLIGHT DATE SEGMENT DPTR ARVL MLS EQP ELPD MILES SM 1 F9 316 16NOV MCO TTN 725A 950A 319 2.25 890 N 2 F9 317 16NOV
218 stlgph : Oh? As soon as they put "guess one of our new states" on the website and New Jersey was up there ... it was one of my top picks for Orlando service.
219 Post contains links and images SA7700 : This thread has become quite long and difficult to manage for some users. Therefore it will be locked for housekeeping purposes only. All posts added
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
New Frontier/Republic Part 27 posted Sat Sep 24 2011 15:24:41 by LipeGIG
New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 117 posted Sat Jul 7 2012 23:32:50 by cchan
New Frontier/Republic #35 posted Thu Apr 19 2012 17:28:52 by FRNT787
New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 113 posted Sun Apr 1 2012 20:04:42 by cchan
New Frontier/Republic #34 posted Mon Mar 12 2012 10:50:11 by point2point
New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 112 posted Mon Mar 5 2012 01:43:47 by PA515
New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 111 posted Thu Feb 23 2012 01:11:57 by cchan
New Frontier/Republic #33 posted Thu Feb 16 2012 11:46:43 by bjorn14
New Frontier/Republic #32 posted Wed Feb 8 2012 05:31:25 by bjorn14
New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 109 posted Wed Jan 25 2012 20:47:36 by cchan