ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15158 times:
Personally I would like to know what steps have been taken to make Frontier an attractive partner for investors or possible merger. It has been sometime since the separation was announced and other than pay and benefits being frozen, no other injection of funds has come to fruition.
If AA/US do in fact team up, we will be left with 3 mega carriers (AA, DL, UA) - two large LCC's (WN, B6), an awesome airline that will do it their way (AS), and a few small airlines (F9, NK, VX). The smaller carriers will more than likely not have pricing power. So how small is too small to be an effective competitor in a market? Frontier may have quite a bit of local traffic in DEN but if the fares are low you still won't make money. Would a tie up of NK and F9 make sense? Of course what does F9 bring to the table - high pilot costs and a hub and spoke network that probably doesn't fit into Spirit's way of doing business. Does Spirit circle until the time is right and swoop in to pick up any pieces? And where is the long term road map that explains the goals and benchmarks the company wants to achieve?
I'll be interested to see how Q2 does for F9. Hopefully no more fuzzy math, write off's, and a profit is posted.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14915 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 304): Myself, I have no idea what this "hometown airline" concept is, or what it is worth, if anything.
Midwest was the "hometown airline" at MKE, but it didn't help Midwest any.
What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14888 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2): What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.
You have this inception that F9 chose to screw over MKE/Midwest. It continues every thread yet people continuously point out to you YX's failed business model. So MKE customers stayed behind YX while NW added what...12 destinations? The point is, Mariner/others are correct in saying when YX was in trouble, and FL came into town, consumers decided to fly FL over YX. I'm not a huge "loyal" F9 fan, but to suggest that Republic or F9 is responsible for YX's mistakes doesn't make sense. Also, just to point out one example in the past, doesn't make it true for everything else. Legacies were making money back in the 1990s without bag fees; Does that mean they shouldn't charge bag fees today? YX started losing customers and it's business plan back in the early 2000s. I truly am sorry for MKE customers, but this absolute disdain for F9 needs to stop. It wasn't their fault or Bryan Bedford's fault (In fact Bedford tried to add back flights to MKE, but consumers decided to stay with FL/WN). As far as hometowns go, the same most likely holds true in DEN. A "Hometown airline" really only apply to legacies now a days like ATL is DL country and CLT is US territory. Even people in MSP most likely think of DL for their travel plans before they think of the "hometown airline" SY.
On a side note, VX is the "hometown carrier" in SFO, yet they continue to lose money...Just because an airline is based/headquartered in a city doesn't guarantee it any type of revenue premium.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4576 posts, RR: 28 Reply 4, posted (11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14884 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 2): What about in 2004 when NW built-up a focus city at MKE? That failed attempt was the result of NW not being able to draw away YX's customers - and the fares were dirt cheap.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4576 posts, RR: 28 Reply 6, posted (11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14866 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 5): Thanks. This supports my example from above
Well, and add to that that TPG/NWA paid $450M for YX, then turned around and sold it for $31M to Republic. That's a $419M bath - before Republic ever entered the picture. A great carrier, but they couldn't make it work. And that was WITH a NW codeshare to boot.
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14693 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3): You have this inception that F9 chose to screw over MKE/Midwest.
Ok, and how does what I just said have anything to do with that? I didn't even mention F9, and I was simply rebuffing the claim that being a "hometown" airline is worthless.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4576 posts, RR: 28 Reply 10, posted (11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14529 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8):
I like how you cut it off right before they started making money again:
Ok, well I like how you cut off right before they bought the farm, but that wasn't the point.
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 8): They also did make a profit every year from 1987 through 2000.
I didn't go back that far because you were addressing a 2004 "success" of theirs. I just showed that 2004 (and 2005) were anything but "successful" from a profit and loss point of view. I included 2001-2003 because they showed the trend leading up to the 2004 "success". I stopped at 2005 because I don't know when NW pulled back on MKE and I wasn't clear on their own operating philosophy at that time.
I'm not disputing that YX was able to hold their own or whatever against NW - indeed, their revenues seemed to soar in the 2004-2006 period. However, their losses tripled in 2004 vs the preceding 3 years - then increased significantly again in 2005. I think that points to the "how" of their growth - they chose to take a loss to defend their marketshare, and it appears that it worked.
"Frontier Airlines helped Bismarck airplane boardings reach another record.
The Bismarck Airport had 21,140 passengers for June 2012 compared to 16,055 for June 2011, a 31.6 percent increase."
I don't have any actual numbers for MDT, but dickie birds tell me it has been knock-your-socks-off, which is presumably why they have extended the season.
And according to one dickie bird, there'll be a new city in October. I haven't confirmed it with any other source yet, so I'll just say that it isn't too far from Chicago and has a SCASD grant attached to it.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (11 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14428 times:
That doesn't surprise me. SBN has been on the radar for a while now. If true, that'll leave just TOL and STS as cities that were awarded SCASD grants with the goal of getting F9 service. I'd like to see them give STS a try next summer.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 560 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14358 times:
And according to one dickie bird, there'll be a new city in October. I haven't confirmed it with any other source yet, so I'll just say that it isn't too far from Chicago and has a SCASD grant attached to it.
mariner
F9 your SBN gate and ticket counter is open and ready. Also With Notre Dame Football season coming up SBN-DEN flights might up gauge on football weekends to A319's like Delta upgrades RJ flights to DTW to DC9-50s and other assorted mainline aircraft.
People in SBN are already getting antsy on the airports Facebook page but I pointed out to them that it takes close to a year to work out details such as getting Menzies Aviation in SBN with all the ground support equipment, ticket counter computers, signing contracts etc. In fact the airport said when the grant was announced that it would take till September to start service.
We used to have service to DEN on one flight a day on United back in the 70's on a B727-100 but that was really to big of and aircraft for the route except maybe on football weekends.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 560 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14308 times:
I think the dickie bird is correct. I have friends that work as E190 and Airbus pilots and also a friend in route planning at F9. A lot has been going on behind the scenes at SBN and at F9 to make this happen. I also really feel that this can work this time even without the SCASD grant but the grant can go a long way to paying for the startup costs etc. Also look at all the advertising SBN gives Allegiant and they are SBN's most successful LCC. If one flight a day turns out better that F9 imagined then I can see them adding frequency.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 560 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (11 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14128 times:
From this mornings South Bend (IN) Tribune Newspaper.
SOUTH BEND - A news conference has been called for Monday to announce the addition of a new destination and new carrier at the South Bend Regional Airport.
The new destination will offer Michiana area passengers a new low-fare option when it comes to booking travel from the airport, according to a Thursday release from the airport. Officials could not be reached for additional comment.
The airport has said in the past that its top three markets it has identified are Dallas, Denver and New York.
mcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 679 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14002 times:
Speaking of dickie birds, is there any chatter from the dickie birds about F9 service to MSO? There was an article in the Missoulian a few months ago suggesting that the Missoula airport was trying to figure out how to attract F9, has there been any progress??
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 19, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13980 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):
Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package
I sure hope not! I know DL is not NW, but when Frontier added one small route at MCI, DL sure took the NW form. Memphis was, and I think will be a disaster. Right now I would stick to Denver, and the small routes with no competition. I love what is happening in Knoxville and Omaha, identify a few non-Denver routes that will work. I don't want to see it at Memphis.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13913 times:
I started writing this yesterday, and saved it to post later maybe after proofing etc.
However, overnight, a terrible tragedy struck the area in Aurora, in the form of a senseless shooting at a movie theatre. I suppose this makes a lot of us reflect on our own situations, and what's important, and how quickly things can be unthinkably changed.
May somehow all those affected in this horror find their way forward in such manner that more damage to themselves or those important to them now can be avoided. And even though it's most likely not really enough, I suppose that we can only offer condolences, and may there be whatever support is needed.
May eventually there be peace for all.
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 1): I'll be interested to see how Q2 does for F9. Hopefully no more fuzzy math, write off's, and a profit is posted.
And of course, whether or not F9 is able to post a profit here will be key to its future, as well as that what may be of the entire U.S. airline industry.
If there are eventually three mega carriers in the U.S., and a couple of giant LCCs, along with a handful of other niche carriers, this may for the most part be what will evolve.
As for the niche carriers, AS and HA have their established place. NK is making its own path and seems to have an uncanny ability to shift with the winds if it needs to and prosper. After that, with F9, VX, and to an extent SY, what will be left that can be considered "major"?
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3): Even people in MSP most likely think of DL for their travel plans before they think of the "hometown airline" SY.
On a side note, VX is the "hometown carrier" in SFO, yet they continue to lose money...Just because an airline is based/headquartered in a city doesn't guarantee it any type of revenue premium.
If on the chance that both DL and WN really have no real interest in fares being too low at MSP, I would think that SY can can at least pull from the edges and give some fare relief to those around MSP, and maybe they can continue to sustain there. SY seems most like a vacation carrier, flying to what appears to be vacation destinations, and probably attracts the most price-sensitive. Only concern now is that NK has arrived at MSP as well.
VX has got to turn a profit soon, and start on a path to get a return on its investment. Yes, it has its niche, it has its following, but until some positive $$$$ start showing up, I can only think that at some point, its days have to be numbered. And since VX is quite new, have they built up that kind of loyalty needed in the SF area, and area quite full of activity and well diversified? But is it really enough?
Now, the big question is about F9????? They are DEN, they were born there, raised there, the name has been around just about forever in the DEN area (Frontier 1) and they are the familiar name brand in somewhat of a niche area which is quite isolated, yet an island of large, continuous activity, which is even both alluring and appealing. The Denver area in itself generates quite a high number of originating air passengers, (since driving to just about anywhere population-wise is very lengthy and timely) as well as being quite attractive on its own to be able to draw a high amount of incoming air passengers both those that are VFR and those that are not. Thus, it would be somewhat off to think that the high pax numbers at DEN are generated only because of super low fares...... yes, yields are below average, but not that far below considering.
Locals are predicting that DEN will have around 62M pax by 2020 - some 7-8 years away, and about 9M more than the pax count of nearly 53M in 2011. This is about a 1%-2% increase each year, which could quite well be doable. So the prediction is the pax will be there, some carrier(s) has(have) got to be there for this, and well enough to support three majors and then some. And if F9 can show positive cash, it will most like have a good future providing it sticks to its strength - DEN.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13868 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): However, overnight, a terrible tragedy struck the area in Aurora, in the form of a senseless shooting at a movie theater. I suppose this makes a lot of us reflect on our own situations, and what's important, and how quickly things can be unthinkably changed.
May somehow all those affected in this horror find their way forward in such manner that more damage to themselves or those important to them now can be avoided. And even though it's most likely not really enough, I suppose that we can only offer condolences, and may there be whatever support is needed.
F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.
Additionally as short fuse airfares are very expensive. I wanted to add and to the families for those who were wounded in this senseless attack.
[Edited 2012-07-20 12:15:11]
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13846 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 21): F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.
Unfortunately, this obviously is a sensitive time when so many feelings are in shock and still so raw. And with that, I would think that any Colorado entity, or really most other entities, are going to find a way to offer what comfort that they can to those affected, in a spirit of common good.
And for all of the activity and history that goes on in the Denver area, yesterday's tragedy is one that could have been done without.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 23, posted (11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13828 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16): Right now seems like the perfect time for frontier to jump on the memphis package
A million bucks may be very attractive, but I'd walk away - unless MEM can give iron clad guarantees that Delta/Northwest won't go doolally, as it did with Frontier at MEM last time, as it did with LAX-MSP and as it did with MCI-MSP.
Now, in view of rumored recent happenings, I suppose it is possible that somehow Siegel (or BB) may have smoked some sort of peace pipe with Delta, but I don't trust 'em and I cheered when I saw that Southwest is starting MCI-MSP - what goes around comes around.
Old grudges aside, I don't think that MEM is particularly attractive as a destination and I believe that Frontier can find other more interesting and less potentially volatile use of the aircraft.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13894 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 11): As in the last thread, we know that GTF is getting good loads, and BIS as well, it seems:
As service to BIS and GTF is flown using the E90 with according to my count is 98 seats. I wonder if either city would rate a A319 at least across the Summer season. The 97% load factor is a monthly average and most likely varies daily. I have a hunch there are days which are sold out. BIS should warrant high yields until the oil boom subsides. GTF would be more seasonal.
Another option might be to offer the service more than once daily, each day of the week using the existing equipment.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13653 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 21): F9 as Colorado's airline may want to offer one-time-only reduced bereavement fares to the affected families who are flying to Colorado or elsewhere for the funerals.
Additionally as short fuse airfares are very expensive. I wanted to add and to the families for those who were wounded in this senseless attack.
It seems that UA has done this, as there is another thread here....
May F9, WN, and all of the other carriers at DEN do the same in this tragic time. And may other businesses find a way to make this time of those affected as easy as possible.
The area, as is probably the rest of our nation, is horribly numbed by this.
With Columbine, this is the second senseless massacre in the Denver area.
And going forward, may all the best get together, so that this sort of tragic event never happens again anywhere.
blhp68 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 147 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13772 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 28): Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24):
Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.
When WN announced MCI-MSY eff 11/3, I knew the F9 service was as good as gone.
And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split between the two with occasional flights to Mexico depending on the season.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 30, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 13577 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 28): Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24):
Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.
When WN announced MCI-MSY eff 11/3, I knew the F9 service was as good as gone.
Neither of those routes make sense with F9's current strategy.
Quoting blhp68 (Reply 29): And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split between the two with occasional flights to Mexico depending on the season.
I actually think MCI-CUN/SJD/PVR/RSW probably does ok for them and will at least stick around for this upcoming winter season.
"Frontier Announces Nonstop Service Between Denver and South Bend Beginning Oct. 11"
I had another very odd cheep from a dickie bird (same one) this morning. It's Apple Vacations charter, not Frontier sked, but supposedly DSM will get CUN service this winter.
It's odd because DSM doesn't have FIS (customs and immigration), so I'm told the aircraft will stop at STL on the way back.
I don't see it in any of the Apple schedules yet, though, so who knows? If it does happen, I think Frontier should apply for scheduled.
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6251 posts, RR: 51 Reply 32, posted (11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13132 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 30): Neither of those routes make sense with F9's current strategy.
That is true. I'm quite sure F9 lost a boatload of money in MCI. I can't imagine YX before it did much better.
It's interesting to me that F9 can't even keep DEN-MSY year round. It gets the axe from mid August through late October, thus making Frontier the only seasonal airline in New Orleans. Very weird.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 33, posted (11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12993 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 31): It's odd because DSM doesn't have FIS (customs and immigration), so I'm told the aircraft will stop at STL on the way back.
I was thinking the same thing for OMA. I know several years ago, NW was rumored to start OMA-CUN if they got FIS. I wonder if F9/Apple would try OMA-CUN with the same philosophy of stopping at STL on the way back
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4576 posts, RR: 28 Reply 34, posted (11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12950 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 23): I don't think that MEM is particularly attractive as a destination
Did you "spend a year there one weekend"? lol
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 24): Per OAG, MCI-MSY & MCI-LAS are being canned effective November.
No surprise.
Quoting point2point (Reply 26): It seems that UA has done this, as there is another thread here....
UA Providing Free Tickets To CO Tragedy Families (by maxamuus Jul 20 2012 in Civil Aviation)
May F9, WN, and all of the other carriers at DEN do the same in this tragic time. And may other businesses find a way to make this time of those affected as easy as possible.
The area, as is probably the rest of our nation, is horribly numbed by this.
With Columbine, this is the second senseless massacre in the Denver area.
Terrible tragedy, but - and pardon me in saying so - I'm not sure how necessary this type of move would be for Frontier. If they did what UA is doing, I'd think it's great, but if they don't, it doesn't seem like it really will mean much in the scheme of things. Just my opinion.
Quoting blhp68 (Reply 29): And so the pullback at MCI is essentially complete, with flights to DEN and DCA remaining. I believe that leaves about 7 flights per day split between the two with occasional flights to Mexico depending on the season.
Pretty sad. MCI isn't really set up for connections well but I always liked it geographically.
Quoting mariner (Reply 31): supposedly DSM will get CUN service this winter.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 35, posted (11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12953 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 32): It's interesting to me that F9 can't even keep DEN-MSY year round. It gets the axe from mid August through late October, thus making Frontier the only seasonal airline in New Orleans. Very weird.
One of the Airtran CEO's once said he wished he could close the airline down altogether in September/October. I'm sympathetic.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 34): If they did what UA is doing, I'd think it's great, but if they don't, it doesn't seem like it really will mean much in the scheme of things.
Frontier is doing some things. As on the Facebook page, they've given free tickets to the relatives of at least one of the victims, and there's this, from Daniel Shurz to the staff:
"The loss of life and injuries suffered were obviously horrific and the events directly impacted the families of at least two of our employees. We are providing support to them and we also reached out to the City of Aurora to provide support to any other families we could and in any other ways we could. We received a very appreciative response and we are glad to be part of such a cohesive community here in the Front Range, which is once again showing the world its emotional strength in trying times."
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 36, posted (11 months 15 hours ago) and read 12711 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 34): I'm not sure how necessary this type of move would be for Frontier. If they did what UA is doing
It sends a very strong message in the Lead, Follow or Get Out the Way mindset. With that said F9 should be commended for stepping up as a corporate citizen.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 37, posted (11 months 13 hours ago) and read 12659 times:
From the OAG thread. F9 DEN-TYS SEP 0.6>0.2 OCT 0.6>0.1 NOV 0.6>0.2 DEC 0.6>0.0
Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction? How does this affect the TYS-MCO service. If memory serves me Orlando theme parks slow down but do remain open across the Winter months
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6251 posts, RR: 51 Reply 38, posted (11 months 11 hours ago) and read 12582 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 35): One of the Airtran CEO's once said he wished he could close the airline down altogether in September/October. I'm sympathetic.
I'm sympathetic to a point because I do know that September/October are slower months industry wide; however, for a small airline like F9 in which DEN routes are its bread and butter, closing up shop entirely at a station for a couple of months is not something I agree with. If you can't keep at least a minimal year round presence from a major travel destination like New Orleans to your hub, something's wrong with the way you are running the station. It's not the best strategy for continuing to build name recognition in a market or for keeping/solidifying the client base. If demand is lower for a certain period, things like reducing certain day-of-week departures should be looked at before canceling service altogether.
I got ahead of myself a bit because that won't be a problem this year since MSY will still have 4X weekly Frontier service to MCI while DEN is hibernating, but next year, I hope something can be done.
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 39, posted (11 months 11 hours ago) and read 12561 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37): Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction? How does this affect the TYS-MCO service. If memory serves me Orlando theme parks slow down but do remain open across the Winter months
The TYS-MCO service is also being reduced, but not going away altogether (1x weekly I think). That route is served from MCO, so it is mostly independent in terms of resources from the DEN-TYS route. Not looking good as a future focus city though....
"The November announcement of the AirTran withdrawal, plus indications by Frontier Airlines that its Knoxville-to-Denver service might become seasonal if demand does not pick up, threw a cloud over these hopes, although a Southwest spokesman said the airline still has an interest in serving Knoxville at some point."
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 795 posts, RR: 1 Reply 41, posted (11 months 9 hours ago) and read 12475 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 31): I had another very odd cheep from a dickie bird (same one) this morning. It's Apple Vacations charter, not Frontier sked, but supposedly DSM will get CUN service this winter.
Very interesting..if true. I'm sure DSM could support 3-4x a week on an E190 November thru spring break.
Quoting mariner (Reply 31): I don't see it in any of the Apple schedules yet, though, so who knows? If it does happen, I think Frontier should apply for scheduled.
This would also be nice. Is DSM-MCO coming back this winter? Maybe they could try DSM-PHX also before WN jumps on that route and give US a run for their money. PHX is huge out of DSM in the winter-spring break time.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 42, posted (11 months 9 hours ago) and read 12473 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 37): From the OAG thread. F9 DEN-TYS SEP 0.6>0.2 OCT 0.6>0.1 NOV 0.6>0.2 DEC 0.6>0.0
Should the December goose egg be considered a seasonal reduction?
Quoting mariner (Reply 40): Last November, Frontier publicly warned that unless winter business picked up the route would go seasonal.
UA has CR7s on this route, so it's not that n/s service isn't there. I suppose since UA was on this route prior to F9, and then F9 entered, probably UA dropped their fares. Now, with F9 maybe gone, UA can raise their fares again. And the DEN-TYS route has been served n/s a number of years now by UA, so I would suppose that there is some traffic there, but most likely not enough for two carriers. FAA info shows about 60 PDEW in the summer months in this market.
I think that it's quite difficult for any carrier to enter a market where there already is an entrenched carrier such as this, even if there are subsidies/guarantees, etc. All the entrenched carrier has to do is match fares for a while.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 43, posted (11 months 9 hours ago) and read 12450 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 42): UA has CR7s on this route, so it's not that n/s service isn't there. I suppose since UA was on this route prior to F9, and then F9 entered, probably UA dropped their fares
That's surely true, but I think it is simpler than that.
Frontier has survived against United in several of the smaller stations (MSN and GRR, eg) and United not only matched but added service to DEN-PSP.
I don't see it in the OAG thread (I don't entirely understand how to read those threads) but dickie birds tell me Frontier's seasonal DEN-PSP is coming back a month earlier (October) than last year, which suggests survival against United.
Knoxville is a curious one - Allegiant couldn't make TYS-LAS work and it is an intensely seasonal destination for Frontier - full planes in the summer, half-empty in the winter.
How in the World is VX the San Francisco Home Town Airline?? United has Been in SFO since 1937 and VX claims Hometown?? Cheez! There's a National Monument Hangar at SFO that can't Be torn Down to atest to United being Home town airline. VX just Happens to be based there. Frontier Just Happened to be based at Denver and you saw what Bedford did to THAT!! Had United Moved to Houston after the merger we STILL would NOT have been the Hometown Airline . all that hometown stuff is amatter of Where the Money is and the Senior Management wanted to BE UAL was in CH-11 when VX started VX thought they were going to have an opportunity to connect the Pacific Virgin Airlines with the Atlantic Virgin Airline It was a darn good thought but it hasn't worked out so hot and it isn't UAL that's dogging them. It was Alaska's Bill Ayers who has caused them Untold grief even up to causing their CEO (Don Carty) to get the AX. They'll have to grow oganicallyand Not get undue influence or authority from Rich Branson because if they DO? They're outa here!! And San Francisco couldn't do a darn thing to help them if they Did. Forget the Hometown stuff. That's NOT part of Anybody's Business plan.
0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 847 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (11 months 8 hours ago) and read 12386 times:
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 45): It was Alaska's Bill Ayers who has caused them Untold grief even up to causing their CEO (Don Carty) to get the AX.
Don Carty was CEO at American, not Virgin America. He is Chairman of the Board at VX. The CEO that was ousted was Fred Reid and that was a complicated matter that, among other things, involved the foreign ownership issue.
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 47, posted (11 months 7 hours ago) and read 12331 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 43): Knoxville is a curious one - Allegiant couldn't make TYS-LAS work and it is an intensely seasonal destination for Frontier - full planes in the summer, half-empty in the winter.
Interesting F9 doesn't swap TYS to the E90 during the off season. Its too bad CHA couldn't be integrated into the service somehow; possibly CHA-TYS-DEN. It would be a neat test of a market. The only service I saw between CHA-DEN is on DL via ATL.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
"Frontier flights aid passenger numbers at Springs airport
New nonstop flights to four cities launched in late May by Frontier Airlines have given a healthy boost to pasenger numbers at the Colorado Springs Airport.
Traffic in May fell 0.5 percent from a year earlier to 73,098, as gains from Frontier’s new flights to Los Angeles, Phoenix, Portland and Seattle and increased passenger numbers from three of the four other airlines serving the Springs nearly offset a 12.2 percent drop in passengers on United Airlines. The Chicago-based carrier, which carries nearly half of all passengers leaving the Springs, has reduced the number of flights it operates to both Chicago and Houston on Saturday, typically the slowest day of the week for travel.
“May was a very positive month,” Shanahan said. “The response to the new flights was just fantastic and it continued into June and so far in July. We expect the strong bookings to continue and are very pleased with the response from passengers to the new flights.”
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 49, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12035 times:
Today during US Airways investor call, they announced they had made a deal with Republic to re-aquire 5 E190s with 2 going to US in the 4th quarter and the other 3 in the 1st quarter of 2013
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 50, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11915 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 49): Today during US Airways investor call, they announced they had made a deal with Republic to re-aquire 5 E190s with 2 going to US in the 4th quarter and the other 3 in the 1st quarter of 2013
I imagine the days of the E90 in Frontier colors are numbered.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 52, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11800 times:
Wonder if any routes will be dropped with the loss of those 5 airplanes
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 560 posts, RR: 1 Reply 53, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11660 times:
That's probably one of the reasons why SBN-DEN will be operated by an A319.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 54, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11618 times:
Quoting freakyrat (Reply 53): That's probably one of the reasons why SBN-DEN will be operated by an A319.
I imagine the SBN service is usually the freed up plane that would've done TYS this winter. US Airways stated they would enter service with them in 4Q 2012 & 1Q 2013 which means the planes will actually leave F9 earlier than that. I guess it could come from just reducing flights in current markets after the busy summer period ends.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2008 posts, RR: 3 Reply 55, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11596 times:
I really hope CID doesnt lose service, we just got it with the E90...Hopefully we will get an airbus
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 56, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11576 times:
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 55): I really hope CID doesnt lose service, we just got it with the E90...Hopefully we will get an airbus
It will all depend on how the service is doing. One question would be rather the whole fleet goes, or just the 5. I suspect if it is just the 5 CID has a good shot. Next Wednesday is the conference call, so we may likely hear more about the plan. It may just be that with a smaller fleet they can keep the Pro-Rate flying at a better level of profit, and be more picky with the routes operated.
I am personally a huge fan of the E190. I think if used correctly it is a great airplane. The question is rather it works for Frontier now, and if not can they afford to keep it until they figure out how it will work for them. I do suspect they will work much better at US Airways than for Frontier.
One positive, this should have no adverse impacts on the pilots or Flight Attendants, as they have such an influx of aircraft coming online this year at RJET.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 57, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11566 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 56):
It will all depend on how the service is doing. One question would be rather the whole fleet goes, or just the 5. I suspect if it is just the 5 CID has a good shot. Next Wednesday is the conference call, so we may likely hear more about the plan. It may just be that with a smaller fleet they can keep the Pro-Rate flying at a better level of profit, and be more picky with the routes operated.
I am personally a huge fan of the E190. I think if used correctly it is a great airplane. The question is rather it works for Frontier now, and if not can they afford to keep it until they figure out how it will work for them. I do suspect they will work much better at US Airways than for Frontier.
One positive, this should have no adverse impacts on the pilots or Flight Attendants, as they have such an influx of aircraft coming online this year at RJET.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 58, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11528 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 57): Does Republic have any more orders for the E190?
As far as I know, they do not. 5 were originally brought in on lease. Then, 10 were acquired from US Airways. About a year later, a tentative deal was signed with Embraer for up to 24, of which 6 were firm. As part of the restructuring last year, that was reduced to the two that were already constructed. Those two replaced two that went back to the lessors this year, resulting in no net gain of aircraft. (although 17 were operated for a few months). Now, 5 aircraft are going back to US Airways. I presume that eventually 3 more will go back to lessors, while the other 7 belong to RJET.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11130 times:
Geez, so now it looks like all the E190s are on their way out? The flip-flopping just never seems to stop over there, does it? It wasn't too long ago that Bryan Bedford touted adding E190s to the fleet as a necessity to replace the "outdated" technology of the 717s.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 60, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11097 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 59): Geez, so now it looks like all the E190s are on their way out?
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 61, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10992 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 59): Geez, so now it looks like all the E190s are on their way out? The flip-flopping just never seems to stop over there, does it? It wasn't too long ago that Bryan Bedford touted adding E190s to the fleet as a necessity to replace the "outdated" technology of the 717s.
The EJets being brought in was a Midwest decision. The 717s were on their way out the door and had to be replaced with something. It's clear you dislike Bedford, but what happened happened.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 62, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10873 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 59): Geez, so now it looks like all the E190s are on their way out? The flip-flopping just never seems to stop over there, does it? It wasn't too long ago that Bryan Bedford touted adding E190s to the fleet as a necessity to replace the "outdated" technology of the 717s.
As mentioned above, the 717s were heading out before BB was running Midwest. After Midwest returned 16 of the 25 717s they were operating, Boeing began shopping around lease agreements for 25 717s. Mexicana gladly accepted the terms. (By most accounts I saw, their Click operation seemed somewhat successful). The writing was on the wall and YX needed something to replace the 100 seat 717, so they chose for Republic to operate the 100 seat E190.
In Regards to flip flopping, I'm happy to see a company that is aggressive in fixing problems. I don't know that the E190 itself is a problem at Frontier, or if 15 was just too many. It's important to note that the routes they were ORIGINALLY brought in for, are gone.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 63, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10745 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 59): The flip-flopping just never seems to stop over there, does it? It wasn't too long ago that Bryan Bedford touted adding E190s to the fleet as a necessity to replace the "outdated" technology of the 717s.
Hmmm? I guess you missed that Frontier is being separated from Republic to be a stand alone airline.
From the time that separation was first discussed (the FAPA agreement fifteen months ago), it was known that Frontier would become an all-Airbus airline.
This is more evidence of that separation. There are others that have yet to be (publicly) addressed.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 64, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10678 times:
I believe the 5 E190 aircraft are more than likely the ones that were never painted in the F9 livery. Someone mentioned this past April that the two aircraft that are still in the Midwest livery is going to be phased out August 2012, so this may be two of the 5.......
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 65, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10664 times:
Just to see a graphic of what is involved with RAH/F9 and the E90s, below is a map of the routes that I believe are flown currently for F9 by RAH.
There may be a few quirks here, but in general, I believe this to be a good picture.
And if five of them are going away, I suppose that they can replace an A319 on some of the larger stations, but the smaller ones, well.....? And I believe that a few routes (e.g. MCI-MSY) will be phased out altogether.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 66, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10604 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 65): And if five of them are going away, I suppose that they can replace an A319 on some of the larger stations, but the smaller ones, well.....?
Well, indeed.
It isn't business as usual. It isn't just that there is a new CEO. It is that the airline is being refashioned.
Yes, there are routes that become "wobbly" without the E190, but that's all part of it. If all the E190's are eventually going away (which seems possible) and those routes cannot be flown profitably with the Airbus, then those routes shouldn't be there.
DEN-ZIH, for example. Frontier has clearly decided that it can be flown profitably with the Airbus because it has applied to have its full (not code share) authority restored.
There's a long-ish list of places that will probably be okay, but a few may be dodgy. Example - presently the PVU airport terminal can only comfortably hold about 100 people and exactly that lack of terminal space (no more than100 pax) has killed an Airbus route before (Australia/Bali - PHE-DPS).
Whether a route like MSN-DCA can be flown profitably with an Airbus - no matter how well it's doing - may be a question mark but all the within-perimeter DCA routes must have a question mark over them, because Frontier does not hold those slots - Republic does. And I have no idea if Republic would simply gift them to Frontier - I don't think I would.
Even with a Republic minority holding, it won't be Republic's Frontier anymore. It's called separation.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 67, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10575 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 66): Example - presently the PVU airport terminal can only comfortably hold about 100 people and exactly that lack of terminal space (no more than100 pax) has killed an Airbus route before
If the route is doing well, maybe at this point the people at PVU may start calling UA and see if the can get something there. After all, UA has been expanding DEN a bit as of late.
Quoting mariner (Reply 66): And I have no idea if Republic would simply gift them to Frontier - I don't think I would.
I guess the question would be as to how much of a separation Republic is going to have with F9. If it's a complete one, then yes, probably no gifts. But if it's only a partial one, then maybe it's in Republic's best interest to give this gift if the route is successful, I would think.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 68, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10561 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 67): If the route is doing well, maybe at this point the people at PVU may start calling UA and see if the can get something there. After all, UA has been expanding DEN a bit as of late.
Well, they may. But the airport has been chasing other airlines so long I wouldn't be sure of their success.
Or the airport may do something radical, such as enlarge the terminal. They're going to have to if there ever want - or get - more than one aircraft on the ground at the same time.
Or the remaining E190's may stick around long enough that the issue ceases to have any immediacy.
Quoting point2point (Reply 67): I guess the question would be as to how much of a separation Republic is going to have with F9. If it's a complete one, then yes, probably no gifts. But if it's only a partial one, then maybe it's in Republic's best interest to give this gift if the route is successful, I would think.
Well, again, anything may happen. Republic could sell the slots to Frontier on a deferred payment basis, depending how much debt to Republic they want Frontier to accrue - BUT I'm not sure that all the slots, the AIR21 slots, can be sold.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 69, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10540 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 68): All I'm saying is that I am expecting changes.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2483 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10458 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 66): may be a question mark but all the within-perimeter DCA routes must have a question mark over them, because Frontier does not hold those slots - Republic does. And I have no idea if Republic would simply gift them to Frontier - I don't think I would.
Why was this filing made?
"Republic Airlines filed with the DOT for flexibility in destination on 4 of its currently held DCA slots being utilized on service to Milwaukee under the Frontier Airlines brand."
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 71, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10394 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 70): "Republic Airlines filed with the DOT for flexibility in destination on 4 of its currently held DCA slots being utilized on service to Milwaukee under the Frontier Airlines brand."
If we're talking about the same filing (hard to know without a link) then what it says - flexibility.
I doubt they will restore MKE-DCA to 3 x daily, and my reading is that they want the ability to add a frequency (or, I guess, frequencies), perhaps only on certain days, at OMA.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 72, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10226 times:
As regional flying and decisions go; not wanting to drift to far off topic how does DL decision to ka-bash Com-Air regional flying side of their operations effect RAH and F9? I know RAH has their hands in a lot of regional flying but I don't think they fly any Com-Air routes for DL.
The national news media reported DL is going to shed what I understood to be all regional Com-Air flying because it cannot sustain itself. In the short term I doubt they could rid themselves of any Essential Air Service markets if they are contracted to fly them.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
"For the quarter ended June 30, 2012, Frontier posted pre-tax income of $14.1 million compared to a pre-tax loss of $32.6 million for the quarter ended June 30, 2011.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 74, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9599 times:
For those who do not know, N507LX is now in the UAX colors with the globe on the tail. I saw it yesterday sitting at either gate A62 or A64. Revenue service for this plane begins tomorrow, August 1. I was not able to go over to look at it and take pics, but I hear it has the blue UAX colored seats and brand new carpet. The plane looks pretty good in these colors!
I wonder who will be ground handling the 4 Lynx planes now that they're flying for UA operated by Republic. When the Q400's were flying for F9, they were ground handled by F9. Does Republic have their own ramp rats?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 75, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9598 times:
This item caught my attention. Bedford said. “We must continue the ongoing effort to restructure our small regional jet operations so that we can return our Company to sustainable long-term health and competitiveness,
I can read this several ways. I see some downsizing or swapping to the E90 vs. in markets which are currently receiving the A319. The loss of the five E90 mentioned in this and in part 35 would suggest otherwise.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 76, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9592 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 75): This item caught my attention. Bedford said. “We must continue the ongoing effort to restructure our small regional jet operations so that we can return our Company to sustainable long-term health and competitiveness,
It is my reading that he was talking about Republic contract flying - "small regional jets" - not the Frontier unit, although, given the CASM which is still too high, it probably applies there as well.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 77, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9537 times:
Is F9 gaining/returning any airplanes other than the 5 E190s in the 3rd Quarter?
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 78, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9408 times:
F9 finally getting in more $$$$ than they are spending, and this is very good news.
With F9 being DEN-centric for the most part (and I won't deny a lot of hard work by a lot of people as well) good things happen for it. And F9 needs to keep being DEN-centric, because plain and simple, DEN is their cash cow, and it's really all that they have.....
And with this, as long as this goes on, now it is more than likely that DEN will continue to show that it can be hubbing three majors, fares will remain reasonable and then probably a bit more, and the O&D pax will be turning out in numbers, all other things remaining equal. And I do think that the key to DEN remaining a hub for the three majors is pretty much dependent on whether or not F9 is profitable, which now it seems to be finally doing after a long (RAH-YX-MKE/sigh) pause.
I'm sure there are a few out there still who envisioned this back in the late 80s when DEN was being planned, and they have something to feel good about here, as well as everyone at F9 does now.
Good job all..... and stay your course and even better things will happen!
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 79, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9262 times:
I agree it is wonderful that Frontier has finally shown positive cash flow but as a ULCC a single hub doesn't work. Right now things are going ok but what happens when/if US/AA merge? A small airline with a single hub up against a number of challenges and two airlines with large networks in your own backyard. A single hub didn't work for Skybus and if we take the Ryanair approach they have quite a few small cities with multiple destinations. I don't think it is about frequency for a ULCC, it's about destinations. Does Frontier have the right mix of destinations that will keep folks coming back? Trust me, I need Frontier to survive. Does COS count as a focus city - it could. MCO, only if they open a few more cities. I can't think of a single ULCC that has a single hub or focus city.
A lot of front line employees have been putting in LONG hours to help turn things around. I hope it continues.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 80, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9083 times:
From the conference call: Republic has a tentative deal to sell 5 E190s back to US Airways. Additionally, there is a deal working right now to move 5 additional E190 to a multi-year charter agreement that would be similar to a CPA agreement. If this occurs, Frontier will operate only the Airbus fleet and 5 E190s. They are also looking at additional options for the other 5 aircraft. BB says the E190 is not quite condusive to the further move to ULCC space. Frontier has an Airbus CASM at 6.78 cents. The total Frontier CASM is about 7.18 cents, reflecting an increase due to the Pro Rate flying.
Additionally, they expect a roughly 7-8% margin next quarter for Frontier.
[Edited 2012-08-01 10:18:53]
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
Joeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 876 posts, RR: 0 Reply 81, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9058 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 80): From the conference call: Republic has a tentative deal to sell 5 E190s back to US Airways. Additionally, there is a deal working right now to move 5 additional E190 to a multi-year charter agreement that would be similar to a CPA agreement. If this occurs, Frontier will operate only the Airbus fleet and 5 E190s. They are also looking at additional options for the other 5 aircraft. BB says the E190 is not quite condusive to the further move to ULCC space. Frontier has an Airbus CASM at 6.78 cents. The total Frontier CASM is about 7.18 cents, reflecting an increase due to the Pro Rate flying.
Additionally, they expect a roughly 7-8% margin next quarter for Frontier.
To me, the better question is what would happen to DCA-OMA? They want to add a third frequency and if they remove the E190, the Airbus are just too big for this route. 2x daily (maybe 3x) on a E190 is perfect size for this route. There is no way they will fill 3x daily A318 or A319 on this route!? I'm not following what F9 is thinking here.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 82, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9023 times:
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 79): I agree it is wonderful that Frontier has finally shown positive cash flow but as a ULCC a single hub doesn't work.
The last thing that I want to do is appear disagreeable...... but it seems that every airline (or business for the matter) can find a niche, and sometimes it just works.
Although I agree in principle that it is better to have more than one hub for an airline, this just doesn't seem to work for F9. Every time that F9 wants to focus anywhere but DEN....... there go the $$$$ right out the door....... and in reverse, every time F9 re-energizes back to DEN..... well gee....... they earn more than they spend, by golly......
Somehow F9 is just an extension of DEN, and DEN is somehow what it is with F9....... others can chime in as they wish here, but history shows us that this is pretty much a fact at this time.
I want F9 to continue for a long, long time as well. They employees are hardworking, and great people. It appears to me that they all take pride in their company. And most importantly, paychecks are assured as well as F9 is able to keep more $$$ in they they spend after each quarter.
So yes, while in theory it would seem that airlines should all have more than only one hub, somehow, after all of these years, F9 keeps defying the odds with this, and does its best being DEN-centric. And if it keeps working, just simply keep it working as is, and focus on keeping it working, and really no need for additional risks which end up proving overly costly for F9. No need to go elsewhere, when after all is said and done, the very survival of F9 becomes a question when they stray too far off from DEN.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2483 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8995 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 81):
To me, the better question is what would happen to DCA-OMA? They want to add a third frequency and if they remove the E190, the Airbus are just too big for this route. 2x daily (maybe 3x) on a E190 is perfect size for this route. There is no way they will fill 3x daily A318 or A319 on this route!? I'm not following what F9 is thinking here.
The filing has me also confused on what frontier is trying to do for multiple reasons.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 84, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8954 times:
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 85, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8935 times:
the latest now being Republic not seeing Frontier separation until first part of 2013 --- sale or spinoff ... coming from today's forecast presentation.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2483 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8882 times:
Quoting stlgph (Reply 85): the latest now being Republic not seeing Frontier separation until first part of 2013 --- sale or spinoff ... coming from today's forecast presentation.
so spinoff......not to be a negative nancy but frontier can say that all they want but we all know no one is even interested. I cant even see someone wanting the airbuses so badly or to take the baggage of the third place denver o&d airline, can you? A Sale seems beyond unlikely.
Quoting point2point (Reply 82): So yes, while in theory it would seem that airlines should all have more than only one hub, somehow, after all of these years, F9 keeps defying the odds with this, and does its best being DEN-centric. And if it keeps working, just simply keep it working as is, and focus on keeping it working, and really no need for additional risks which end up proving overly costly for F9. No need to go elsewhere, when after all is said and done, the very survival of F9 becomes a question when they stray too far off from DEN.
I dont disagree with you that den has been good comared to everywhere else but how about at least expanding to COS as well with a year round focus city. Denver is THE lowest airfare hub in america and frontier is the third largest o&d carrier lets all remember. Same market generally its a well known brand and they can simply try to steal more southwest and united passengers who would be doing the I-25 drive? If they can get a small premium i think its worth the effort. They clearly need DEN but they have no real single money printing route there and COS i just think has potential to make a few to help the airline. I just think betting the farm on denver solely cant work and if they trully go 100% on denver southwest could easily ruin them by a long huge fare sale to everywhere since they have almost total overlap already. Frontier knows they cant survive just on denver the question is where else can they go that has open gate space and make money?
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 87, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8879 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 81): To me, the better question is what would happen to DCA-OMA? They want to add a third frequency and if they remove the E190, the Airbus are just too big for this route. 2x daily (maybe 3x) on a E190 is perfect size for this route. There is no way they will fill 3x daily A318 or A319 on this route!? I'm not following what F9 is thinking here.
The E190 are not gone immediately. Currently there are 17 in service. 2 go back to lessors rather shortly. 5 go to US Air starting with 2 in Q4, and 3 in Q1 2013. IF the charter agreement occurs, that would be 5 aircraft, starting in Q1 2013. That would still leave 5 E190 for Frontier at the end of Q1 2013. After that, who knows.
Quoting stlgph (Reply 85): the latest now being Republic not seeing Frontier separation until first part of 2013 --- sale or spinoff ... coming from today's presentation
But they did seem to suggest we would have more clarity on it this month. Also nice to see Siegel on the call, even though he only answered one question. He made it clear though that F9 management is focussed on 2 things: Develop a business plan for the future (currently a sort of 5 year plan, leading up to the NEO deliveries. Also get CASM down further.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 88, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8881 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 86): so spinoff......not to be a negative nancy but frontier can say that all they want but we all know no one is even interested. I cant even see someone wanting the airbuses so badly or to take the baggage of the third place denver o&d airline, can you? A Sale seems beyond unlikely.
It has always seemed beyond unlikely.
As BB said about a year ago, no one wanted Frontier in in bk - except Southwest - why should it be different now?
From the git-go - the FAPA agreement - BB has talked about Republic becoming a minority investor in Frontier. He also talked about the possibility of RJET shareholders participating in that spin-off.
The odd thing is that so few listened. BB said "separate" and everyone heard "sell."
Joeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 876 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8859 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 81): To me, the better question is what would happen to DCA-OMA? They want to add a third frequency and if they remove the E190, the Airbus are just too big for this route. 2x daily (maybe 3x) on a E190 is perfect size for this route. There is no way they will fill 3x daily A318 or A319 on this route!? I'm not following what F9 is thinking here.
I wonder if F9 is thinking that could do a 25 minute turn in OMA and send the aircraft to COS. Do a COS-OMA-DCA at 2x daily, take 60 passengers per OMA-COS flight onto or from DCA and get the other 50 from local O/D. This would amount to OMA-COS needing about 200 ppd (50 each per flight) on F9 which I think would be doable considering the large air force presence in both COS and OMA. don't shoot me...just thinking at this point.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 91, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8845 times:
Quoting stlgph (Reply 90): He included the "sell" in several interviews. Including one with my team.
Usually when he was asked about "the sale." It's shorthand. He is "selling" it - to investors.
There comes a point - as happened to me in these threads - when you are simply wasting your time trying to correct a conventional wisdom, a populist assumption.
Go back to what he originally said - look at where they are now. Nothing essential has changed.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 93, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8813 times:
Quoting stlgph (Reply 92): But yes, he did mention a whole out sale of the Frontier Airlines unit. Sale ... as in sale.
A direct sale has always been on the table - it still is. All the options are open - but they are realists.
It's been reported that AMR has "an interest" in buying Frontier- if they offered and it was a good price, I'm sure RAH would take it.
But - as BB said above - the chances are slender - partly because of the price he would want. And whatever you think that price is, for RAH to come out clean add at least $150 million to it.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 94, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8785 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 86): Denver is THE lowest airfare hub in america and frontier is the third largest o&d carrier lets all remember.
Just curious, but by what measure is DEN rated the lowest airfare hub in America? I think that PHX, LAX, LAS, SFO, and MCO (if that can be considered a hub?) all have lower yields than DEN. So while I'll agree that DEN is on the lower side, I'm not quite sure that it is the lowest.......
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 86): how about at least expanding to COS as well with a year round focus city.
I guess a reply to that would be that since F9 pretty well knows this territory, they can do what they need to at COS, and concentrate on it as well if the $$$$ show positive. And with the Apple flying, if it's $$$$ positive, keep going with that. And having a winter apartment in MCO, if that's $$$$ positive, keep going with that as well.
My concern is that (and I would assume that this is all most likely conventional wisdom) is that F9 feels that it needs to have another focus/hub (whatever) elsewhere, for the sake of conventional wisdom, I would say DO NOT do it. A DEN-centric focus is what works for this small, niche carrier.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 86): southwest could easily ruin them by a long huge fare sale to everywhere
I think that in this scenario, WN would stand to loose a lot more than F9....... and yes, WN does have a great big pocketbook (but getting reduced some I would suppose as this FL merger goes on) but I'm not quite sure that WN shareholders are going to want to bank on a premise that if WN spends tons of $$$$ in its effort to ruin F9..... how much and how quickly can it recover what it spends, considering UA, as well as practically all of the other major airlines serve DEN? I just see that as much too risky a gamble, for a company as conservative as WN. Same goes for the other airlines at DEN. And we also have to remember UA here, and that I believe that a three carrier dynamic is much different and exponentially more difficult to overwhelm than with a two carrier dynamic. I think that the best that can be achieved is a mutual coexistence for all now, considering the dynamics of DEN and presently with DEN showing over 50% O&D - as this will most likely sustain for a while........ And if forecasts are any credence, DEN is expected to have about 62M pax by 2020, and breaking this down, this is only about a 1%-2% increase per year here...... very doable..... and whose going to be moving those pax?
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 87): That would still leave 5 E190 for Frontier at the end of Q1 2013. After that, who knows.
Good, F9 still needs these E190s..... there are a number of routes that most likely will not support an Airbus..... and if these routes are $$$$ positive, then why fiddle with it?
Quoting mariner (Reply 93): And whatever you think that price is, for RAH to come out clean add at least $150 million to it.
I've mentioned this before, and got blasted for all sorts of reasons, but the only value that high to anyone would be if somehow UA and WN were to be able to get together, and somehow split up F9. To either UA of WN separately, it isn't worth it. To anyone else, it just isn't worth it. But if UA and WN could split this up, the returns for them both would be pretty immediate and well worthwhile. Now...... is all the blasting about to begin?
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 95, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8776 times:
Right now, Frontier is at the right size with its equipment and network where it can significantly shift its focus and operations into an ULCC and mimick Spirit and Allegiant.
Given the recent financial performance of Spirit Airlines and the earnings results that Allegiant will be posting in about another 8-10 minutes, I look for Frontier to do what it can to copy Spirit/Allegiant even more.
If they've successfully retooled their network by spring 2013, I'd strongly consider a buy for my portfolio, especially if the stock is under $8.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 96, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8750 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 94): My concern is that (and I would assume that this is all most likely conventional wisdom) is that F9 feels that it needs to have another focus/hub (whatever) elsewhere, for the sake of conventional wisdom, I would say DO NOT do it. A DEN-centric focus is what works for this small, niche carrier.
Nothing to do with conventional wisdom for me - I'm absolutely on the other side of that.
DEN has always been Frontier's best strength - and it's greatest liability. I believe both those things till to be true.
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 97, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8707 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 89): I wonder if F9 is thinking that could do a 25 minute turn in OMA and send the aircraft to COS. Do a COS-OMA-DCA at 2x daily, take 60 passengers per OMA-COS flight onto or from DCA and get the other 50 from local O/D. This would amount to OMA-COS needing about 200 ppd (50 each per flight) on F9 which I think would be doable considering the large air force presence in both COS and OMA. don't shoot me...just thinking at this point.
The current problem with that is the DCA slots are owned by Republic and need to be flown by Republic. So in order to fly them with Airbus, some changes need to happen, and I'm not sure all of the slots are transferable.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 98, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8697 times:
A lot of things didn't work for Skybus, but they did have two bases: CMH and GSO, not that you could connect at either place without buying two different tickets and gathering up your bags, checking in again and all that mess. Skybus didn't have a single "hub" in that sense.
I agree with you that I would like to see F9 bust out of the DEN "trap" they're in right now, but MKE and MCI (and before that LAX) didn't work out that well for them. They seem to be doing OK at MCO, but that's an end point, not a hub at the moment.
rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2871 posts, RR: 7 Reply 99, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8701 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 89): I wonder if F9 is thinking that could do a 25 minute turn in OMA and send the aircraft to COS. Do a COS-OMA-DCA at 2x daily, take 60 passengers per OMA-COS flight onto or from DCA and get the other 50 from local O/D. This would amount to OMA-COS needing about 200 ppd (50 each per flight) on F9 which I think would be doable considering the large air force presence in both COS and OMA. don't shoot me...just thinking at this point.
Apart from the slots issue... DCA-STL-COS would make more sense. Alternately, DCA-OKC-COS. I don't think there's enough traffic between OMA and COS. I think even MCI would have more traffic to COS.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 100, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8590 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 89): I wonder if F9 is thinking that could do a 25 minute turn in OMA and send the aircraft to COS. Do a COS-OMA-DCA at 2x daily, take 60 passengers per OMA-COS flight onto or from DCA and get the other 50 from local O/D.
I think that's an interesting idea. It might better explain the application to transfer MKE-DCA slots to OMA-DCA.
I think 3 x daily OMA-DCA would be a stretch (even assuming it gets a wee bitty feed from DEN), but 3 x daily OMA-DCA with feed from COS might make it viable.
Who knows? There's something going on which is beyond my ken.
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 101, posted (10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8235 times:
Mariner -
Hearing that there are other cities on the way, all small. Your dickie birds doing any singing? I've been told they are markets that WN will not enter. I can't imagine they will be out east, especially since we are only going to have 5 E190's left. I'm assuming short flights out of DEN or COS. Any ideas?
Thanks!
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
Best bet is to probably look up and see what small/medium airports are currently offering subsidies for service and place your bets starting there.
There were some mumblings in casual conversation I had last week with analysts about Denver to Huatulco and Pasco. Who knows what will actually come to pass.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 103, posted (10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8240 times:
Quoting rampart (Reply 99): DCA-STL-COS would make more sense.
I agree. COS with its significant military/government population in the greater COS catchment area previously discussed in the DCA beyond perimeter slot application connects Scott AFB across the Mississippi river from STL on the Illinois side is home to the Air Mobility Command and HQ U.S. Transportation Command to the Pentagon in both dirctions.
Curiosity got the best of me thus I searched for the largest DOD bases in the U.S. The list below is determined by either by land area or troop strength. White Sands, NM is actually the largest by land area. The list is constantly changing as DOD migrates to the Joint Base concept which combines two or more military bases into one. It is said # 3 below when combined with neighboring Pope AFB is actually the largest in troop strength. As recently as a year ago # 5 five below was believed to be # 10 by the installations own measurement. I'd like to believe Joint Base San Antonio which is absent from the list would be in a top ten list.
1) Ft. Hood, Texas
2) Naval Station Norfolk, Virgina
3) Ft. Bragg, North Carolina
4) Camp Lejeune, North Carlina
5) Ft. Campbell, Kentucky
6) Ft. Lewis/McChord AFB, Joint Base Lewis Tacoma, Washington
7) Eglin Air Force Base, Florida
8) Naval Air Station Jacksonville, Florida
9) Naval Weapon Station, South Carolina
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 104, posted (10 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8116 times:
It would seem that amy new destinations would have to be seasonal. With losing at least 5 E190s and possibly 10, next summers schedule would already be full.i imagine they will have some slack in their fleet for the winter months thougj. Maybe we'll see placed like MBJ, BZE, HUX, and ZLO for this coming winter.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 105, posted (10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8096 times:
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 101):
Mariner -
Hearing that there are other cities on the way, all small. Your dickie birds doing any singing? I've been told they are markets that WN will not enter. I can't imagine they will be out east, especially since we are only going to have 5 E190's left. I'm assuming short flights out of DEN or COS. Any ideas?
The only cheep I've heard is for Apple: BDL-PUJ as 1 x weekly, Christmas to April.
Yes - as DSM-CUN-STL-DSM to clear customs at STL on the way back.
The dickie bird insists it is happening, but I just checked the Apple site and BDL-PUJ is there, but I don't see DSM-CUN yet - DSM isn't in the drop down list of cities:
rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2871 posts, RR: 7 Reply 109, posted (10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8038 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 103): Curiosity got the best of me thus I searched for the largest DOD bases in the U.S.
If you're bored, you might also want to look at sum total of multiple bases surrounding a metro area. Your large bases would compare to a cluster of non-joint bases (e.g. Peterson AFB + Ft. Carson + AFA + NORAD + Schryver AFB at COS, or those surrounding DC, or surrouding San Diego, etc.)
It also appeared in the Apple schedule (link above) as JetBlue for October but then Frontier from December through April.
Then - one day - it went away and became all JetBlue.
So I assume it has to do with aircraft availability. If there are no aircraft coming in, I assume the fleet will be tight this winter.
I aslo assume that the Prime Directive is to be profitable in Q4 and hopefully profitable (or not lose too much) in the always difficult Q1/13.
And obviously I'm completely sympathetic to that - but I hope the fleet doesn't get too tight.
I'm equally sympathetic to the "no compete" (or no Southwest compete) smaller cites philosophy - I'm told MDT has been just excellent all summer and we know from the press that other new routes have traction.
At the same time, people from smaller cities usually want to go to bigger cities and I hope the bigger city isn't always and only DEN.
I can think of half a dozen (no compete) routes to MCO that I'd like to see - even if only 1 x weekly - but I'm not sure they have the aircraft to do that this winter.
Given where we were last year I think the turned around is deeply ironic - Frontier was the biggest contributor to RJET profit in Q2. I also understand that the Five Year Plan is working towards the A320Neo order - but I hope it isn't all and only that.
We know from Allegiant that there are some freakin' cheap A319's out there. I could handle a couple more in the fleet.
Maybe I'm jumping ahead - or pipe dreaming. But that's one reason I come here - pipe dreams.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 112, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7715 times:
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 101): Hearing that there are other cities on the way, all small. Your dickie birds doing any singing? I've been told they are markets that WN will not enter. I can't imagine they will be out east, especially since we are only going to have 5 E190's left. I'm assuming short flights out of DEN or COS. Any ideas?
Quoting stlgph (Reply 102): There were some mumblings in casual conversation I had last week with analysts about Denver to Huatulco and Pasco. Who knows what will actually come to pass.
HUX would seem to make sense; but I'm not sure if Pasco would fare any differently than FAR or FAT.
Buddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 490 posts, RR: 4 Reply 113, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7628 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 111): I'm equally sympathetic to the "no compete" (or no Southwest compete) smaller cites philosophy - I'm told MDT has been just excellent all summer and we know from the press that other new routes have traction.
I'm trying to find the link on MDT's website but not sure where it is. If I recall correctly the flights to DEN were sold out May and June. No July info yet. Who knows what the yields were but the fact they extended the schedule another two months tells me the must be happy with the results. O+D was around 80%.They also stated on Facebook I believe that MDT-MCO was in the 90%LF and doing well, and that's with FL/WN still flying the route 1x daily( who also was in the 90's).
I think F9 made a home here in central PA, and this gives the residents a better option than going to BWI on WN. I look forward to using them in the near future for sure!
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 114, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7547 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 112): but I'm not sure if Pasco would fare any differently than FAR or FAT.
It's a non Southwest city, so ... you never know.
Also have to wonder if Redmond is offering a subsidy with Allegiant pulling out.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 115, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7534 times:
I do know that MDT did so well that the season was extended. Sometimes it is the smaller cities that surprise you the most - such as MSN. I was hoping we would see another flight from BMI but looks like they are cutting the WED departure to MCO. Hopefully just for the slow season.
I do worry with the number of planes leaving any city with more than 2-3 flights will lose some frequency. IND, MDW - can they each lose a flight in order to keep the destination count up. Does DAY go to 1 flight a day...that sort of thing. How low can you go in a city before passengers book away simply because you are no longer the best option.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 116, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7521 times:
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 115): How low can you go in a city before passengers book away simply because you are no longer the best option.
Hasn't stopped Spirit from doing well.
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 115): BMI but looks like they are cutting the WED departure to MCO. Hopefully just for the slow season.
Wed returns at some point in the fall going into the winter. There's also a 4th weekly flight running at least mid to late December.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 117, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7512 times:
Do you know what day the flight will operate? I'm looking online and can't find any new flights to MCO-BMI.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 118, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7504 times:
Interesting - when I was looking for flights for my parents around Christmas it had a Sunday nonstop option loaded - now it's a connection through Denver.
Good catch - that changes things a bit!
Looks like the Wednesday Bloomington to Orlando returns Nov 21.
For what it's worth Allegiant to Orlando remains two weekly through the fall.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 119, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7404 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 111): But that's one reason I come here - pipe dreams
I thought that was a condition of subscription to be an A-netter.
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 113): I think F9 made a home here in central PA, and this gives the residents a better option than going to BWI
I would add anything south on Hwy 15 to the Maryland state-line. If your flying west the longer leg to DEN gets you 2/3 of the way across America. From MHT; UA and AA will get connect you through ORD on a RJET. DL/NW to MSP. I suppose there are other connections through ATL and DFW.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 120, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7219 times:
Sounds like the NMB has told the pilots for RAH to go back to the table and keep working. Hopefully this can be resolved quickly and fairly.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
"Milwaukee pilots protest against Republic Airways in New York
The pilots said the complaints against Bedford are numerous. “He literally trashed the brand,” said Carl Schwerman, first officer of the local 357, and Republican Airlines executive board trustee. “Bedford took the most senior, highest-paid pilots in the Milwaukee pilot group, threw us out on the street, returned the airlines to Boeing, and had to pay a penalty for getting out of the leases early."
That's a very serious revision of history. The end of the 717's was being organized by Boeing six months (Jan 09) before Republic bought Midwest (June 09):
"Midwest Airlines Inc. eventually could lose its nine remaining Boeing 717 jets - jeopardizing the carrier's signature wide seats - under a deal being worked out between Boeing Capital Corp. and a Mexican airline, according to a trade publication report."
I wonder at what point do the pilots - or all Milwaukee - accept that Midwest was broke and that some very smart minds at TPG and Northwest couldn't fix it?
BB is trying to pour oil on troubled water over in Milwaukee this week-end. I think he's wasting his breath because we get headlines like this:
"Republic Airways CEO finally explains Milwaukee cuts"
"Finally" explains? What did Milwaukee not know that the rest of the airline world did - that Republic/Frontier was losing a shedload of money at MKE?
I used to think that a much-reduced MKE would be of value to Frontier. I'm not sure I believe that to be true anymore. The orgy of remorse and recrimination seems never-ending there.
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 122, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7041 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 121): I used to think that a much-reduced MKE would be of value to Frontier. I'm not sure I believe that to be true anymore. The orgy of remorse and recrimination seems never-ending there.
Remember that contest Frontier Airlines had a few years ago to name the badger on the tail, the ads they had saying how happy they were to be here in Milwaukee? Well, scratch all that. They've been cutting flights, laying off workers, and clearly Milwaukee is not the new Frontier. They threw the towel in for this market awhile back.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 123, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7034 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 122): Remember that contest Frontier Airlines had a few years ago to name the badger on the tail, the ads they had saying how happy they were to be here in Milwaukee? Well, scratch all that. They've been cutting flights, laying off workers, and clearly Milwaukee is not the new Frontier. They threw the towel in for this market awhile back.
Indeed - after they lost unsustainable amounts of money at MKE and nearly sent Frontier to the wall.
And none of your recriminations will change a single thing. You can't turn back time, you can't bring back yesterday.
sideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1 Reply 124, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7010 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 121): That's a very serious revision of history. The end of the 717's was being organized by Boeing six months (Jan 09) before Republic bought Midwest (June 09):
It was actually September of 2008 when the return of the 717's first was announced and began. It coincided with the announcement of the Republic 170's coming in.
And these are the same Midwest flight crews who used the slogan "full pay till the last day" while the rest of us took more paycuts to help the company. So they really got what they asked for.
mke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2327 posts, RR: 5 Reply 125, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6912 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 121): BB is trying to pour oil on troubled water over in Milwaukee this week-end.
He's not making it any easier on himself by saying that MKE will keep the seven flights it has now, especially since we know RHI is going to end and there's been talk of moving the DCA flight to OMA.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4745 posts, RR: 29 Reply 126, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6893 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 122): Remember that contest Frontier Airlines had a few years ago to name the badger on the tail, the ads they had saying how happy they were to be here in Milwaukee? Well, scratch all that. They've been cutting flights, laying off workers, and clearly Milwaukee is not the new Frontier. They threw the towel in for this market awhile back.
I remember the contest well. I also remember how hopeful we were to see MKE grow. I also remember how excited we were to see Frontier growing like crazy.
However, we remember the quarterly losses mounting. We knew that continued massive losses would result in a failed airline. We also knew MKE was a blood bath. Frontier made every possible attempt to make MKE successful. There was no way Frontier could maintain the frequencies and hub at MKE any longer. Money was starting to get low, and something had to be done.
What would you suggest RAH had done in this situation? I am asking you to be an arm chair CEO, and tell us what you would have done different to MKE? Keep in mind, you only have enough money to last 2 years before you need to show positive cash flow. You also will face extreme competition from Southwest and Air Tran. Hurry up Illinoisman, the investors want results ASAP! Do you keep bleeding until you shut the airline down? Or do you take swift actions when the investors start demanding results after losing patience? Come on bud, the ball is in your court.
I give Bedford and the entire Frontier team applauds for what they did in MKE. They put up a heck of a fight, and really tried to make it work.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 127, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6933 times:
Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 125): He's not making it any easier on himself by saying that MKE will keep the seven flights it has now, especially since we know RHI is going to end and there's been talk of moving the DCA flight to OMA.
As I said, I think he's wasting his breath. Whatever he says there will be bitter complaints of broken promises.
And I've only ever heard talk of one pair of (unused) slots moving to OMA - the filing talks about a a possible 3rd daily. But (a) there are two pairs of slots at issue and (b) the DOT may not approve even that. Anything is possible, I guess, but I'd raise my eyebrows at the idea that OMA-DCA could support 4 x daily.
But ultimately, what does it matter? Frontier's MKE hub is as dead as Midwest. How long is the wake going to be?
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 128, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6915 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 126): I am asking you to be an arm chair CEO, and tell us what you would have done different to MKE?
Uncle Timmy essentialy told Airbus to "pound sand" when they offered the A320 to YX. What they should have done was deploy the A320 for trans-con and segments that could support the 'Bus. For smaller segments or routes with thinner loads, those should have been flown by Skyway with the Dash 8-Q400. Sure, the Dash's were turboprops but economical.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 126): You also will face extreme competition from Southwest and Air Tran.
Remember when all the local businessmen sucked up to the CEO of YX to stop FL from buying out them out because it would destroy the airline and ruin a Milwaukee product? That's how F9 ended up at MKE and how did that work out?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 129, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6910 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 128): Remember when all the local businessmen sucked up to the CEO of YX to stop FL from buying out them out because it would destroy the airline and ruin a Milwaukee product? That's how F9 ended up at MKE and how did that work out?
This whole mess began with a mortally wound - by Airtran - Midwest at MKE. Now MKE was the financially healthy Southwest at MKE.
So MKE is extremely well served by an airline that many cities would throw money at to have. I have no idea what your problem is.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 130, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6899 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 128): Uncle Timmy essentialy told Airbus to "pound sand" when they offered the A320 to YX. What they should have done was deploy the A320 for trans-con and segments that could support the 'Bus. For smaller segments or routes with thinner loads, those should have been flown by Skyway with the Dash 8-Q400. Sure, the Dash's were turboprops but economical.
That sounds awfully expensive. Especially comsidering they seem to have not been able to afford the 25 717 lease payments. YX decided to send the first 16 back, so Boeing was stuck figuring out what to do. BB, RAH and Frontier have strangely taken the blame for that.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4576 posts, RR: 28 Reply 131, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6869 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 128):
Uncle Timmy essentialy told Airbus to "pound sand" when they offered the A320 to YX. What they should have done was deploy the A320 for trans-con and segments that could support the 'Bus. For smaller segments or routes with thinner loads, those should have been flown by Skyway with the Dash 8-Q400. Sure, the Dash's were turboprops but economical.
I think he was referring to F9/RAH, not whatever went on at YX before they came into the picture. It's fun to ponder what-if's that involve shiny new planes that just magically produce money, but in the real world there were huge problems at YX before RAH took over.
Talk about "Uncle Timmy" and NWA and any other entity/person you wish, but none of them have been in the picture for YEARS. The fact is that MKE became a bloodbath once it became FL's Alamo. WN was just icing on the cake. The economy went south in a hurry. Business travel plunged. Oil spiked. Etc etc etc.
This is all rehash, and no one is going to change your mind based on every other thread we do this in. If you wish to keep reaching back four or more years into the past, that's your choice, but I think most of us have moved on to today's reality.
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 132, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6783 times:
gustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 121 posts, RR: 12 Reply 133, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6753 times:
Their Facebook page states -
Next week we’ll announce new routes with destinations in six states - two of which are NEW states for us! So let’s have some fun with it. Click the “Mystery Miles” tab and guess the two new states we’ll be serving. If you guess correctly you'll receive 1,000 EarlyReturns miles. And one lucky correct-guesser will get 25,000 EarlyReturns miles! Make sure to sign up for our EarlyReturns mileage program before entering so you can get those miles. Sign up here: http://bit.ly/NXSCPo Contest ends 8/5.
They don't serve AL, MS, WV, DE, MD, VT, NH, ME, MA, CT, RI , HI, NC and SC (and ID)
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 134, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6722 times:
I can't get the F9 web URL and interactive route map to load so I'm using the list below.
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 133): They don't serve AL, MS, WV, DE, MD, VT, NH, ME, MA, CT, RI , HI, NC and SC.
I think its safe to rule out Hawaii. I take new as airports in states they have not previously served. That rules ot MA and MD (I think F9 served BWI once) Didn't they fly or still do fly to BDL in CT. As trivia goes Delaware (DE) is the only state with no regularly scheduled commercial aviation. Could F9 be the first?
Because of the new airbus facility my number one choice would be MOB. Thereafter PVD in RI.
[Edited 2012-08-04 09:59:06]
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
kingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 18 Reply 135, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6707 times:
I am predicting more MCO or LAS. I wouldn't be surprised to see COS - LAS. I wouldn't mind seeing AVL or GSO service to MCO. I would love to see BTV - DEN. I'm reading some comments on the Facebook page and some of the MKE posters are downright nasty.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 136, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6674 times:
I of course would love to see Juneau (JNU) Alaska possibly connected to the new BLI service as one of the four states with existing service.
Its not a show stopper but I would think any Alaska announcement would come in Jan/Feb for service beginning across the Spring and Summer.
[Edited 2012-08-04 09:37:32]
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 137, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6657 times:
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 138, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6647 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 134): AL, MS, WV, DE, MD, VT, NH, ME, MA, CT, RI , HI, NC and SC.
Yes both Massachusetts and Connecticut appear in the drop down menu of states on the Facebook ballot. I also thought i saw Idaho amongst the other states listed above.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4745 posts, RR: 29 Reply 139, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6652 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 128): Remember when all the local businessmen sucked up to the CEO of YX to stop FL from buying out them out because it would destroy the airline and ruin a Milwaukee product? That's how F9 ended up at MKE and how did that work out?
What ultimately happened to YX is tragic. No matter how you slice it, YX was in major trouble. RAH prolonged the presence of YX, and really did try to make MKE work. Nobody wanted the result we see today, except WN and then Air Tran. If anyone is to blame for this, I think it is fair to blame WN. I won't argue one bit that YX was a heck of a nice airline. Had RAH not bought YX, no matter how you look at it, YX would have been lost long ago. If Southwest or Air Tran had gotten YX, we would have lost them years ago regardless.
MKE residents do have a valid reason to be upset with the loss of YX and F9. But, the blood bath WN and Air Tran put on was just too much. We will probably never see another classy airline like YX... But we sure can remember what a fine airline they were, and how great the employees were. I wish we could turn back time, and do things differently. Had YX known years before the trouble began what was ahead, we might have seen changes made then to keep them sustainable to this day.
And I agree, Airbus or 737s would have been a major help over the 717. It just sucks we can't redo it!
"Ryan International Airlines has asked permission from a bankruptcy judge to hire the former president and CEO of Frontier Holdings Inc. as its chief restructuring officer for $50,000 a month.
Jeff S. Potter of Colorado-based Boyd Group International, who ran the parent company of Frontier Airlines from 2002-2007, would act as president and CEO of Ryan, replacing Mike McCabe. He would be empowered to make all decisions on behalf of Ryan, according to bankruptcy court filings."
Interesting - I thought JP was going to Michael Boyd's group.
NB: the photo is not JP, but the bloke who runs RFD - (Bryan Leaf?) - where Ryan International is based.
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 141, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
Can Potter do both The Boyd Group and Ryan International? And $50,000 per month for a salary is pretty steep. I would have a hard time accepting, as an employee, the company throwing so much cash when others are taking cuts!
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
"July 2, 2012 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Boyd Group International, a leading aviation consulting and research firm, today announced that Jeff Potter has been named President and Chief Executive Officer, effective July 9."
I'd raise a couple of eyebrows if he's leaving already, so maybe it's a package deal with the Boyd Group? I dunno. As to the money, Sean Menke was negotiated up to more than $600,000 per annum at Pinnacle. Not that that lasted too long.
Quoting mariner (Reply 140): NB: the photo is not JP, but the bloke who runs RFD - (Bryan Leaf?) - where Ryan International is based.
Speaking of which, RFD is eager to have a flight to South West Florida - RSW or PGD:
"On the Web page where Chicago Rockford International Airport touts its destinations, there's a spot waiting for a route airport officials covet: southwest Florida.
"Coming Soon" promises a corner of the page reserved for Fort Myers/Punta Gorda service. It's right next to information on four destinations via Allegiant Air, the airport's dominant carrier that recently beefed up service to Punta Gorda.
But so far, southwest Florida is wishful thinking."
I would assume Allegiant, but they're a bit backing away from it in the article. In any event RFD's destination map includes RSW/PGD, so they seem fairly sure that someone will pick it up.
Allegiant seems more likely, but I guess it could be Frontier.
In any event, since the new Frontier routes are - presumably - for the winter, I'm hoping that Florida will be in there.
I'll put up hand up for BIS-MCO a couple of times a week. If I lived in North Dakota in the middle of winter, I'd probably throw money at an airline that would take me to someplace warm.
As to the "new states" part of it, I dunno. Airtran used to fly CRW-MCO and West Virginia would be a new state for Frontier.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 143, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6331 times:
Any airport scheduled Press releases posted for next week? That may give some insight to the new routes.
PacificF27 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 65 posts, RR: 0 Reply 144, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6328 times:
Is there anything new with STS? As I recall a grant was pending. Denver would be a great addition to Alaska's service to SAN, LAX, PDX and SEA. Am still rooting for SCK!!!
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 145, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6256 times:
Any chance we could see DEN-ALB, BUF, BOS, or CVG? These might be a stretch, but I can dream. ALB wants a non-stop to DEN, and has been trying to get WN to launch it.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 146, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6249 times:
I don't understand what your problem with F9 is, but man.... you have got to stop blaming for the demise of Midwest Airlines on Frontier and RAH. They did not do anything to "kill" Midwest. As a matter of fact, BB did everything he could to SAVE Midwest and much as he can. He gave it all, he gave an extra 2 years of life to Midwest. After that, there was nothing he could do. Nothing! Without BB, Midwest would have been dead way before RAH took over the company. You really need to let this go. It is wrong and inappropriate to be blaming BB, F9 and RAH for the death of Midwest. You should be pointing the finger at your "Uncle Timmy", who had ZERO relations with Frontier. Blame him and move on. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to bring Midwest back. I'm sorry but this is a harsh reality. But you got to let it go!
Quoting F9animal (Reply 139): What ultimately happened to YX is tragic. No matter how you slice it, YX was in major trouble. RAH prolonged the presence of YX, and really did try to make MKE work. Nobody wanted the result we see today, except WN and then Air Tran. If anyone is to blame for this, I think it is fair to blame WN.
I agree 100%! It is tragic and it sadden a lot of people in this industry. No one was happy to see WN in MKE, until now more than likely.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 139): If Southwest or Air Tran had gotten YX, we would have lost them years ago regardless.
Nobody could save Midwest, no matter what. If WN or FL took them over, Midwest would be dead anyway.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 130): Especially comsidering they seem to have not been able to afford the 25 717 lease payments. YX decided to send the first 16 back, so Boeing was stuck figuring out what to do.
Who has these 25 712's now??
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 130): BB, RAH and Frontier have strangely taken the blame for that.
Who were the ones that phased out the 712's out of the Midwest fleet? I don't think it was BB's decision.....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 147, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6215 times:
They all went to Mexicana Click. With the demise of Mexicana group, they went back to Boeing. Volotea Airlines, a European startup is taking some of them. Wikipedia says they are taking 9, Boeing is probably hoping for all 25.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 146): Who were the ones that phased out the 712's out of the Midwest fleet? I don't think it was BB's decision.....
The first 16 were returned by Midwest. This was in 2008. The only thing Republic was doing at the time was a deal to operate 12 E170s for Midwest, with the option to lease them to Midwest, should Midwest have chosen that. Additionally, they agreed to loan up to $25 million to Midwest. (The first time BB tried to help Midwest).
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4745 posts, RR: 29 Reply 148, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6208 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 140): Former Frontier CEO Jeff Potter back in the game? Ryan International (not Ryanair!) which is in bk wants him to restructure their airline:
Awesome news for Ryan! They got themselves a hell of a CEO, and Potter will no doubt turn them around. I love Potter, and he is genuine. The employees of Ryan International are going to see results. Can you tell I am a Potter fan?
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 141): Can Potter do both The Boyd Group and Ryan International? And $50,000 per month for a salary is pretty steep. I would have a hard time accepting, as an employee, the company throwing so much cash when others are taking cuts!
I can't see him bailing on Boyd so soon. As for the salary, Potter is one of the few CEOs worthy of it. Like I said, Ryan really struck gold by getting him onboard. Potter is so good to his workers, and actually goes out and works with them. I like him so much, I would work for him any day. I spent some time with him and his wife last year. Both were absolute fun, and left a forever positive impression for me. He is a score, and a true gentleman. I wish he could come back to F9!
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 150, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5976 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 148): Potter is so good to his workers, and actually goes out and works with them
The Herb Kelleher effect I suppose.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4745 posts, RR: 29 Reply 151, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5936 times:
Yes, he is. Dressing up on Halloween, and visiting everyone. Walking penguins through the terminal. Working the gates, ticket counter, in-flight, and ramp. Carrying a cooked turkey into the station on Thanksgiving. Very approachable, always had his door open to anyone. He was a great morale booster. I enjoyed having him, and Addoms too.
Quoting mariner (Reply 149): Not to burst your bubble, F9Animal, but I wouldn't want to turn back the clock to that.
mariner
He really tried to expand F9 to areas that were hopeful. Yes, LAX was not pretty, but he tried. I also think he was a few years early on MEM, but he had to have psychic abilities to know things were going to change on the MEM scene. And LYNX.. I really think LYNX was a smart idea, and was sad to see what has become of it. And he put a face on Frontier! The famous commercials and life to talking animals was during his tenure.
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4114 posts, RR: 7 Reply 152, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5961 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 145): Any chance we could see DEN-ALB, BUF, BOS, or CVG? These might be a stretch, but I can dream. ALB wants a non-stop to DEN, and has been trying to get WN to launch it.
DEN-BOS operated until 2002:
Quote: Frontier pulled out of Boston in 2002 when it couldn't get facilities it wanted at Logan International Airport there.
The Denver-Boston flight was one of Frontier's longest routes, and with the high cost of fuel, the route doesn't make the most economic sense, Hodas said.
I think I would give WN almost as good of a shot of serving ALB and BUF-DEN as F9. WN/UA also flies DEN-BOS currently (WN wasn't around DEN in 2002 obviously). DL/UA both have a daily CRJ flight to CVG this winter from DEN - but I don't know if F9 would ever be interested in opening up CVG as a station.
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 812 posts, RR: 0 Reply 153, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5936 times:
AZA has scheduled a press conference for tomorrow (August 6) to announce a third airline serving the airport. Does anyone think F9 is moving from PHX?
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 154, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5930 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 142): If I lived in North Dakota in the middle of winter, I'd probably throw money at an airline
The current oil boom and almost zero unemployment combined with the wages being paid should allow for some extra disposable cash. I hear the casino's are booming.
We camped in North Dakota one July night in 2007; twenty or so miles across the state-line from Montana. The daytime temperature reached 105 Fahrenheit. WeI almost turned around and drove back to Alaska. North Dakota was the last of the 50 states I had never stepped into so that's off my bucket list.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 155, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5886 times:
Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 98): I agree with you that I would like to see F9 bust out of the DEN "trap" they're in right now
Curious as to why anyone considers this to be a "trap" for F9, or anything else with a negative connotation? If the $$$$ are there, which is pretty much the case, then......?
I think that the DEN management does its best to make all businesses welcome and do their best to make all as productive as possible there. Even NK recently decided to settle into DEN, a move that I'm sure just about knocked everyone's socks off.......
But yet, I guess "trap" is one mode of thinking that many can view this. However, this "trap" is F9's cash cow, and they better know the ins and outs of it better than anyone. So it's best that F9 concentrate on as much of the O&D that they can get here, and then offer connects for the rest, and they seem to have a good connection network that they best can develop to the fullest.
Quoting mariner (Reply 111): At the same time, people from smaller cities usually want to go to bigger cities and I hope the bigger city isn't always and only DEN.
Hey dude, come on..... and just why not?
Certainly would be the ideal of all of those in the hospitality industry around the Denver area, eh? And if not Denver, then everyone can always transfer through DEN to get to whatever other big city they want to go to, so...?
Assuming that current F9 planners are going to be DEN-centric, which is what seems to make $$$$ for F9, and assuming there will truly be new routes (no other nonstop service at present), then per the FAA 2011 averages, the top twenty (-one) destinations without nonstop service to/from DEN with PDEW are:
ORF...172
BUF...171
RIC...163
ALB...135
CHS...116
ROC...106
PBI...105
PNS...103
GSO...93
GSP...91
SYR...88
SAV...86
PWM...68
BTV...65
JAN...57
GRB...55 (recently lost F9 service here)
CAE...50
AVL...46
ECP...43
ILM...40 (tied for 20th)
VPS...40 (tied for 20th)
There are also seasonal variations with the above data, and flights do not have to be daily to start, as F9 is now doing.
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 133): They don't serve AL, MS, WV, DE, MD, VT, NH, ME, MA, CT, RI , HI, NC and SC (and ID)
NC and SC seem like prime territory, as does upstate NY. And are RIC and especially ORF too close to PHF?
And from what I can recall, STS, GRB, and TOL still have unused SCASD grants from 2011. Grants submitted for 2012 (and not yet approved) that include F9 and DEN are ABE, RST, and AVL. SRQ is looking for DEN n/s service though not mentioning any carrier.
So after all this, it seems to me at least that these "new routes with destinations in six states - two of which are NEW states for us" are up for grabs and quite likely just anyone's best guess.
It is good that F9 has finally after a long dry spell shown some positive $$$$, and with that, some expansion anticipated, hopefully into areas that will make them even more positive $$$$$$.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 156, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5861 times:
CKV (Clarksville, TN) 60 miles NNW of BNA on the Tennessee-Kentucky state-line just opened a new terminal in July and was recently awarded $2.4 state grant for runway/apron/taxiway improvements. The airport does not appear to be FAR 139 approved. Ozark did offer larger jet service from STL and SDF into the early 1970's CKV would be the perfect E90 airport after certification. The airport is adjacent to the Fort Campbell, KY Army installation; somewhere between 5th and 10th on the largest DOD base.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 158, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5838 times:
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 153):
AZA has scheduled a press conference for tomorrow (August 6) to announce a third airline serving the airport. Does anyone think F9 is moving from PHX?
I would also question if this announcement is going to be done all at one time, or could it possibly be done with a few announcements throughout the week? Certainly making a few announcements keeps the drama going rather than making it all at one time.
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 812 posts, RR: 0 Reply 159, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5850 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 158): I would also question if this announcement is going to be done all at one time, or could it possibly be done with a few announcements throughout the week?
Fair point--F9 has simply said "Starting tomorrow...", but it does appear they will all be announced some time this week.
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6251 posts, RR: 51 Reply 160, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5833 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 155): Curious as to why anyone considers this to be a "trap" for F9, or anything else with a negative connotation? If the $$$$ are there, which is pretty much the case, then......?
There's only so much that can be done from DEN when all is said and done. $$$ is there now, but why is diversifying a bad thing? It's not. If the airline is solely content on being Denver's Hometown Airline, well, that's great if that's all they aim to be. You'd think they'd want to be more.
Quoting point2point (Reply 155): It is good that F9 has finally after a long dry spell shown some positive $$$$, and with that, some expansion anticipated, hopefully into areas that will make them even more positive $$$$$$.
It is good. Now it needs to continue. The airline needs to show consistent profitability for investors to take notice.
Quoting point2point (Reply 155): Assuming that current F9 planners are going to be DEN-centric
I think that's probably a pre requisite for the job sometimes. That bothers me.
Ultimately it's a trap because there's a finite number of new markets that can be added, even with incentives. I'm not convinced that a successful ULCC can thrive and grow with a purely hub-and-spoke model based on one major hub alone.
And while yes, DEN is great for Frontier, only having DEN exposes the vulnerability - all the eggs in one basket.
On the simplest level, one severe storm can close down the whole airline, and has. How many aircraft were damaged in the hail storm?
More that that, a determined competitor with deep pockets could make life hell - again - for Frontier at DEN. It's why old-timers like me are pleased to see the small build-up at MCO.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 162, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5672 times:
There's only so much that can be done from DEN when all is said and done. $$$ is there now, but why is diversifying a bad thing? It's not. If the airline is solely content on being Denver's Hometown Airline, well, that's great if that's all they aim to be. You'd think they'd want to be more.
Ultimately it's a trap because there's a finite number of new markets that can be added, even with incentives. I'm not convinced that a successful ULCC can thrive and grow with a purely hub-and-spoke model based on one major hub alone.
Couldn't have responded to the question better myself tristar, thanks!
Kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 7 Reply 163, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5605 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 142): As to the "new states" part of it, I dunno. Airtran used to fly CRW-MCO and West Virginia would be a new state for Frontier.
A new state indeed. The market is there.. just need an airline.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 164, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5608 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 160): There's only so much that can be done from DEN when all is said and done. $$$ is there now, but why is diversifying a bad thing? It's not. If the airline is solely content on being Denver's Hometown Airline, well, that's great if that's all they aim to be. You'd think they'd want to be more.
Okay. And now that all of the armchair CEOs are here, I would ask, where would F9 want to expand? It seems that every time they attempt to, only bad things happen, no one can deny this.
The projection for DEN by 2020 is 62M pax. This is only about a 1%-2% increase each year, and certainly quite doable. So there will be an extra 10M pax or so that need to be carried to/from DEN to somewhere, and F9 is in the perfect position to do it. And it's not really a question of wanting more (and of course I would) it's just that there isn't more for them elsewhere, and the most is where they are.
Quoting mariner (Reply 161): On the simplest level, one severe storm can close down the whole airline, and has. How many aircraft were damaged in the hail storm?
True, but I think that it's better to lose a few million to an occasional storm or two, then to loose lots of millions trying to expand into unfamiliar territories. If F9 couldn't really even make MCI work, which I'd thought would be a good fit, they really don't stand any chance elsewhere. As for hail storms, well, get some good insurance and keep the premiums paid......
Quoting mariner (Reply 161): More that that, a determined competitor with deep pockets could make life hell - again - for Frontier at DEN. It's why old-timers like me are pleased to see the small build-up at MCO.
Last part first, yes, MCO is fantastic if F9 can pull some winter $$$ from there, and if they are, keep at it. As for the first part, everyone seems to keep neglecting the fact that DEN has THREE major carriers hubbing there. That is so much more different and the dynamic much more exponential than with two carriers. Which will it be? WN or UA that wants to spend all of these $$$$ to cripple F9. UA spending gazillions may cripple F9, but it will also cripple UA some and only play into making WN stronger. The same reversed for WN. So who will it be? And if F9 does go elsewhere, where there is only one carrier to compete with, then yes, a two carrier war will be won by the biggest and the one with the most $$$$$. So anywhere F9 can go to compete with another carrier, it isn't going to be F9 as the biggest or with the most.
Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 162): Couldn't have responded to the question better myself tristar, thanks!
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 165, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5570 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 164): Okay. And now that all of the armchair CEOs are here, I would ask, where would F9 want to expand?
That's the question that has intrigued the "armchair CEO's" of the message boards since I first started following the airline in 1998.
And it's a tough one, because (a) most of the probable places already have an incumbent airline and (b) it's one thing to select a focus city/hub, it's another thing to do it badly as happened with 1st LAX back in 2003.
Every "armchair CEO" will have their favourite and every other "armchair CEO" will be able to pick holes in it.
But that doesn't mean to say it isn't possible and shouldn't be attempted. It doesn't even have to be another hub - two or three focus cities might do the trick.
I hope it's an organic process (where do our pax want to go?). I do think MCO offers some very interesting opportunities but wherever it is (or they are) it requires a commitment and some imagination (unlike 1st LAX).
Quoting point2point (Reply 164): As for the first part, everyone seems to keep neglecting the fact that DEN has THREE major carriers hubbing there.
Who is forgetting that?
I don't think United is trying to cripple Frontier, I think United saw sense with Ted. Southwest may well be trying to cripple Frontier:
Southwest, Frontier competing for Colorado's frequent fliers
The battle between Southwest and Frontier over turf dominance in Denver — a persistent tug-of-war since 2006 — saw an unusual public twist this summer when Southwest began advertising a customer promotion designed to win over the allegiance of Frontier's frequent fliers in Colorado.
"A blind man can see what's going on here," said Robert Polk, chief executive of Polk Corporate Travel Management."
But I think Southwest is a bit one-eyed about Frontier and can't see the Spirit for the critters.
No one - or no one that I know - is suggesting that Frontier decamp from DEN, but as MSYTristar so eloquently said, eventually there has to be more than DEN.
It isn't a case of less DEN - it is a case of DEN Plus.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 166, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5564 times:
I get the feeling from most of the posts in this thread, talking about F9 being pretty much a one-hub airline, that most are not thinking of COS as a possible new or future hub?
The debate seems to be whether a single hub is viable these days for this airline. I assume, therefore, that COS has already been written off as nothing more than just another outstation with a few destinations besides DEN -- which may or may not last? (Like presently, or rather recently, MCI, MCO, OMA, MKE, etc...)
I'm not trying to start trouble but just get some clarification from our Frontier experts.
I'll even go one step further and try to tie my question in with one of the current discussions on the thread: any chance that any of the new routes to be announced this week might be from The 'Springs?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 167, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5579 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 166): The debate seems to be whether a single hub is viable these days for this airline. I assume, therefore, that COS has already been written off as nothing more than just another outstation with a few destinations besides DEN -- which may or may not last? (Like presently, or rather recently, MCI, MCO, OMA, MKE, etc...)
COS hasn't been written off by me, but someone - either BB or Siegel - said they're going to attempt to just replicate DEN at COS.
I think COS has potential value, but it doesn't really change the dynamic. The day they fly from COS to somewhere that they don't fly from DEN, that value may start to be realized. Since they can't fly COS-DCA - but believe there is a market - I'd be looking at COS-BWI.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 169, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5388 times:
I hope F9 isn't announcing DEN-AZA. AZA does have lower costs, but they didn't do so well in PIE or HOU.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 170, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5339 times:
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 171, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5286 times:
The schedule is now loaded through 3/17/13. Looking at later January, DSM-MCO, DSM-TPA, OMA-TPA, and DEN-MZT are not loaded. Last year their seasonal Florida routes were announced on 08/08/11, so unless they announce those are returning in addition to their 6 new routes this week, I doubt those 4 routes will not be returning.
MSN-MCO appears to be only 1 x weekly (twice weekly last winter)
OMA-MCO appears to be only 2 x weekly (five times weekly last winter)
MDT & ABE account for an additional 3 weekly flights, and with TYS-MCO decreased this winter, it looks like MCO will have some open aircraft times to accommodate some new routes.
DEN-ZIH seasonal service starts on 02/09/13 (is that later than usual?)
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 812 posts, RR: 0 Reply 172, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5059 times:
As noted in this thread AZA To Announce 3rd Airline 8/6 (by AVLAirlineFreq Aug 5 2012 in Civil Aviation) and on the Frontier route map, it appears F9 is going to begin flying from DEN to AZA and will be announced today. No word on whether they are ending flying to PHX, but that would probably be a safe assumption.
Time to ramp up speculation on the other five new airports to be announced this week by F9.
gustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 121 posts, RR: 12 Reply 173, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5058 times:
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 172): As noted in this thread AZA To Announce 3rd Airline 8/6 (by AVLAirlineFreq Aug 5 2012 in Civil Aviation) and on the Frontier route map, it appears F9 is moving from PHX to AZA and will be announced today.
I don't believe F9 is moving shop from PHX to AZA. The AZA service simply supplements PHX which shows it continuing at 5 flights a day.
FLIGHT DATE SEGMENT DPTR ARVL MLS EQP ELPD MILES SM
1 F9 201 15NOV DEN AZA 110P 303P 319 1.53 590 N
2 F9 200 15NOV AZA DEN 345P 529P 319 1.44 590 N
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 812 posts, RR: 0 Reply 174, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5024 times:
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 173): I don't believe F9 is moving shop from PHX to AZA. The AZA service simply supplements PHX which shows it continuing at 5 flights a day.
Good catch. Just before you posted, I edited my post.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 175, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4961 times:
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 173): The AZA service simply supplements PHX which shows it continuing at 5 flights a day.
DEN-PHX is currently served by F9, as well as UA, US, and WN, one of those four-carrier routes in DEN.
At least with DEN-AZA, F9 will have some market to itself here.
Good move, and hopefully the F9 planners have the info to do this here and be successful with this route, unlike
This might also affect G4 to a certain extent, since G4 may poach off a few of those that live far north or south in the DEN area and maybe use FNL or COS to get to AZA. There must be some of those, I would imagine.
Okay, so now, one new route down, and how many more to go? And it seems that the drama is going to be playing out extendedly.
Quoting SANFan (Reply 166): that most are not thinking of COS as a possible new or future hub?
I don't know about a hub, but F9 planners probably have the data to know what would work from COS.
I also could see maybe some FNL service, since I believe FLN has some incentive $$$$$ and looking for new routes. MDW, LAX, and maybe DFW could be good choices. This in one way may poach off some DEN F9 pax, but on the other hand, it may also get those pax in that area that would drive down to DEN, and then take UA or AA to those destinations.
EGE with its premium traffic, and maybe a couple of other Colorado airports could also be places for more of the
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 176, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4691 times:
DEN-AZA gets cataloged as one of the four current/existing states column in that it already flies to Arizona correct? We should still see three existing routes and two new States not currently served.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
Quote: DENVER, August 06, 2012 - Frontier Airlines today announced new nonstop service between its Denver, Colo. (DEN), hub and Phoenix-Mesa, Ariz. (AZA), with daily nonstop flights beginning on Nov. 15, 2012. To celebrate the new service, Frontier is offering fares as low as $69* each way (all taxes and fees included) available for purchase through Aug. 11, 2012, only at FrontierAirlines.com.
UNITED91 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 43 posts, RR: 0 Reply 178, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4612 times:
In addition to DEN-AZA already being announced. I think we could possibly see CLT and BUF or ALB being announced as well.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 179, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4470 times:
Quoting UNITED91 (Reply 178): I think we could possibly see CLT and BUF or ALB being announced as well.
I would be weary of CLT. I think that WN has its eyes on that. Unless of course, F9 wants to find itself in another three way dogfight with US and probably WN.
I think that BUF would be the best, with the FAA average showing about 171 pax daily, and maybe even IAG would be better? IAG is lower costing, probably with incentive $$$$, closer to Canada, and much more unlikely that WN (or even UA) would venture there as opposed to BUF.
Their Facebook page says 6 new destinations, two of which are in new states. Looking at their route map, the carolinas, and the upper northeast are the biggest areas with no service. So we shall see.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 182, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4331 times:
Quoting UNITED91 (Reply 181): Their Facebook page says 6 new destinations, two of which are in new states. Looking at their route map, the carolinas, and the upper northeast are the biggest areas with no service. So we shall see.
Not exactly. It says new routes with destinations in six states (with two of them as new states).
Of course, it's possible (even probable) it means six new routes - but it doesn't actually say that.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 183, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4311 times:
Since I am no longer with F9, I am out if the loop of things...... Is the Lav Removal Mod project still going to happen? I see it kind of a pointless project, just stooping as low as the same amount of lavs WN has on their 733, 735 & 73G aircraft.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 184, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4217 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 183): Since I am no longer with F9, I am out if the loop of things...... Is the Lav Removal Mod project still going to happen? I see it kind of a pointless project, just stooping as low as the same amount of lavs WN has on their 733, 735 & 73G aircraft.
On the call they were talking about the seat addition projects. The A320s were completed up to 168. The plan I last saw was getting the A319s to 141 seats. My understanding was that extra space came from removing a lav. As far as I know that is still happening.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2483 posts, RR: 0 Reply 185, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4146 times:
ACY would be amazing and a true long shot. I will keep my fingers crossed. It would be a new state but i think they would have to do DEN. Spirit owns the Florida runs and i think alot of people are use to their unusual policies and fees by now.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1227 posts, RR: 12 Reply 186, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4141 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 171): The schedule is now loaded through 3/17/13. Looking at later January, DSM-MCO, DSM-TPA, OMA-TPA, and DEN-MZT are not loaded. Last year their seasonal Florida routes were announced on 08/08/11, so unless they announce those are returning in addition to their 6 new routes this week, I doubt those 4 routes will not be returning.
MSN-MCO appears to be only 1 x weekly (twice weekly last winter)
OMA-MCO appears to be only 2 x weekly (five times weekly last winter)
MDT & ABE account for an additional 3 weekly flights, and with TYS-MCO decreased this winter, it looks like MCO will have some open aircraft times to accommodate some new routes.
DEN-ZIH seasonal service starts on 02/09/13 (is that later than usual?)
MCI-RSW also appears to not be returning this winter.
For tomorrow's announcement, while I can't reveal the source, will be MCO-GSO
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 187, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4131 times:
That mod doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially on the long haul routes with only two lavs. Some of the AS 738's have 4 lavs and are used on long haul routes.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 188, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4118 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 179): and maybe even IAG would be better? IAG is lower costing, probably with incentive $$$$, closer to Canada, and much more unlikely that WN (or even UA) would venture there as opposed to BUF.
IAG would in my mind be a seasonal route. Not considering traffic Its about two driving hours from BUF and an hour or more from ROC both which I recall are served by WN.
With IAG you get the whole northern catchment area on the east bank of Lake Erie and Canada on the other side.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 560 posts, RR: 1 Reply 189, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4067 times:
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 190, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3928 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 175): At least with DEN-AZA, F9 will have some market to itself here.
WN operates out of the reliever airports in the LA basin, and they will eventually end up flying out of AZA in the future. I doubt it will happen until the new terminal is built on the north side of the field, but if memory serves the Ops manager at AZA said there is room for somewhere around 80 gates on the north side after the final build out. One of those concourses will most likely be the WN concourse.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22874 posts, RR: 87 Reply 191, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3902 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 190): I doubt it will happen until the new terminal is built on the north side of the field, but if memory serves the Ops manager at AZA said there is room for somewhere around 80 gates on the north side after the final build out
"Gateway airport plans $1.4B terminal with 60 gates
The booming Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport has unveiled a $1.4 billion plan for a new passenger terminal that could open as soon as 5 years from now and eventually expand to 60 gates."
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 192, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3866 times:
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2483 posts, RR: 0 Reply 193, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3751 times:
The thoughtful planning process that put the airport’s interests first culminated in Monday’s huge announcement that the airport has landed its long-sought-after third airline."
"Mesa and airport officials, who courted the airline for more than a year, saw Frontier as a natural step in Gateway's progress, calling its entry into the market a "game changer.""
"Mesa and the bureau are already working to capitalize on the economic development potential of having the new passenger service.
Mesa sold Gateway to Frontier by touting not the entire Valley as a market, but rather the more than 1 million residents of the East Valley and northern Pinal County. That submarket alone offers substantial potential for business travel, said Scot Rigby, an economic development project manager for Mesa."
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 195, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3630 times:
And GSO it is. New spot on their route map. The webpage does not have destinations as of yet loaded but I truly hope they connect GSO to both DEN/MCO. GSO has no service to the west and is a market that has no direct competition. Three more to go....
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3 Reply 197, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3574 times:
I thought it was going to be one a day this week and that SBN was part of the six but maybe not.
Mariner - lean on your peeps and get them to sing! Where to next?
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
Kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 7 Reply 198, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3531 times:
GSO, Another airport with Allegiant. Another airport where they'll be competing to Orlando.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 200, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3333 times:
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 195): And GSO it is. New spot on their route map
As a pixel on the route map goes the MHT-MCO service flies over GSO on on the way to Orlando. Unless it's a repositioning of aircraft for charter work I realize there is a lot which goes into the route mix; Where aircraft utilization enters the equation it seems to me would F9 would want to connect GSO to the MHT-MCO service The MHT-MCO service operates T-W-TH-F-SU in both directions.
Quoting mariner (Reply 194): Mesa sold Gateway to Frontier by touting not the entire Valley as a market, but rather the more than 1 million residents of the East Valley and northern Pinal County. That submarket alone offers substantial potential for business travel
F9 mindset appears to be business travel in the West with the DEN-AZA announcement and leisure in the East with the additional MCO announcements. I suppose that's diversification of sorts.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
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