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Lufthansa Ending Jakarta Service?  
User currently offlineCityAirline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 685 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16839 times:

Hey!

It seems like Lufthansa is not allowing any bookings on MUC-SIN-CGK from late October and onwards, which would mean the end of Lufthansa service to Indonesia. Does anyone know more about this?

/Alex


I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 16810 times:

It was posted on airlineroutes.net yesterday


As per 17JUL12 GDS inventory display, Lufthansa from 28OCT12 is cancelling Munich – Singapore – Jakarta service. Reservation for the 5 weekly service is closed, and there are no words whether overall service to Jakarta will be kept.

Schedule:

LH790 MUC2130 – 1640+1SIN1750+1 – 1845+1CGK 343 x13
LH791 CGK1950 – 2235SIN2349 – 0555+1MUC 343 x24



Future flights: CPH-BRU-CPHx2; CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-HNL-LAX
User currently offlinegardermoen From Australia, joined Jul 1999, 1520 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16501 times:

If this is the case, they will be sorely missed.
Perhaps the service is to switch back to FRA-SIN-JKT? They have been in JKT for a very long time.

I hope this is not another victim of the EY/QR/EK effect.


User currently offlineCassi From Hungary, joined Apr 2010, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16406 times:

There is no doubt that most of the long (12+ hours) A343/A346 routes are in trouble at the current high fuel prices and we are going to see more cuts. For some competitor airlines like EK it is a much more efficient 6 + 8 hour flight with 77W's.

User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16206 times:

Quoting gardermoen (Reply 2):
Perhaps the service is to switch back to FRA-SIN-JKT?

I doubt that as long they have the A380 on the FRA-SIN route.


User currently offlinesmbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16086 times:

I think in current environment it makes much more sense just to put code on Singapore Airlines flight. Anyway, passenger experience is the same, AFAIK passengers need to leave the aircraft in SIN.

I was on FRA-BKK-KUL flight last year and it was quite bad experience. Need to leave an aircraft in BKK, 2 hours for completing boarding again and continue journey in almost empty B744. Even it could be better experience just to transfer to Thai in BKK.

I think, tag-on's make sense only if stop is other alliance partner territory.


User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16052 times:

I usually get pretty good price on SIN-CGK on LH. Much cheaper and earn the same amount of miles. Is TK still on this route?

User currently offlineTK748 From Turkey, joined May 2010, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15923 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 6):
Is TK still on this route?

Yes TK serves daily IST-SIN-CGK


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4496 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15860 times:

There is talk in Jakarta that LH will delink KUL from BKK and start a nonstop FRA KUL service, which would then be extended to CGK. LH has been suffering the effects from EK/QR/EY as well as TK in CGK and it is losing out in KUL not only to the Middle Eastern carriers, but also to KL, which goes nonstop daily into KUL and will reinforce frequencies there to 10 weekly from the winter.

The FRA SIN service will definitely not be extended into CGK, because CGK cannot handle the A388. So if KUL CGK does not happen, I fear that the only alternative is for the curtain to fall over LH in CGK.


User currently offlineManekS From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15807 times:

Very unexpected. I always thought the flight was lucrative, at least the MUC-SIN portion. Does anyone have insights into the route's performance?

User currently offlinesmbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15707 times:

Quoting ManekS (Reply 9):
Very unexpected. I always thought the flight was lucrative, at least the MUC-SIN portion. Does anyone have insights into the route's performance?

I was on FRA-SIN few times both on SQ and LH.

LH A380 all times was about 60-70% in J and Y classes, so I think they have some issues to fill A380. Maybe they reduce overall capacity to SIN and drop of MUC will help them to fill A380 FRA-SIN.

Actually, I think it is quite hard in-alliance competition. SQ usually are more or less the same price as LH, but better service in many aspects, especially business class on their A380's.


User currently offlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 15532 times:

Will this in any way affect KLM?


If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1449 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15303 times:

There are strong rumors that are saying that BKK will lose its B744 and get an A346 instead.
Maybe there will be a FRA-KUL-CGK in the future! Who knows but currently I have the feeling nobody within LH knows what to expect for the near future.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15297 times:

Hats off to LH for lasting this long.


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineiainbhx From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14992 times:

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 12):
There are strong rumors that are saying that BKK will lose its B744 and get an A346 instead.

Given that BKK doesn't seem to get a reconfigured 744 very often, I wouldn't be shocked at this.

Sorry to lose MUC-SIN, but the fact that it was fairly easy to upgrade C to F on it, obviously meant that the premium demand wasn't there.



iainbhx
User currently offlinenethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1063 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 13322 times:

Quoting iainbhx (Reply 14):
Sorry to lose MUC-SIN, but the fact that it was fairly easy to upgrade C to F on it, obviously meant that the premium demand wasn't there.

Correct, and also it's super easy to get award on any classes on MUC-SIN.
Try searching from United.com award travel! There are always seats open for award tickets.

The Munich hub isn't easy to operate the long haul flights to Asia. Even MUC-HKG, NRT etc where aircraft swap to smaller ones and frequency reduced are often seen. That's one indicator LH is trying their best to adjust to the correct operations. If all the premium classes are really lucrative, I don't think they'd swap aircraft and reduce flight that often.

For sure, EK, EY, QR, TK are being main reasons for these cancellations.



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2359 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12747 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
The FRA SIN service will definitely not be extended into CGK, because CGK cannot handle the A388.

What is CGK waiting for? Seems to me Indonesia is a perfect candidate for the whale jet.

What is the problem, runways and taxiways cannot handle the weight, or is it something else?Having a look at CGK on google earth, seems to me they have at least a few stands with double air bridges. Might it be that they cant accomodate Code F aircraft ?

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11033 times:

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 11):
Will this in any way affect KLM?

In not any way, maybe slightly positive as they are going to be the solely european to fly CGK.

KLM has got the fifth rights between KUL and CGK and SIN-DPS as well. They do good numbers in South-East Asia.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10900 times:

Quoting smbukas (Reply 10):
LH A380 all times was about 60-70% in J and Y classes, so I think they have some issues to fill A380. Maybe they reduce overall capacity to SIN and drop of MUC will help them to fill A380 FRA-SIN.

This iseactly what hey are doing. SIN-CGK can be done on other airline even if SQ des not want to code-share with LH.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6751 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10193 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
What is the problem, runways and taxiways cannot handle the weight, or is it something else?Having a look at CGK on google earth, seems to me they have at least a few stands with double air bridges. Might it be that they cant accomodate Code F aircraft ?

It's not the apron... Stand D11 (gate D1) can probably handle the 380... D21 (gate D2) probably aswell, but not concurrently.
On the rest of the gates at T2, don't the appearance deceive you, it is VERY tight in some spots that not even a 744 can get in (D71 is one, and then D/E/F41 and D/E/F42).
And then... the boarding gate space is a nightmare. Even an EK 773 boarding is enough to get some people quite irate!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineSIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 272 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9941 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):
the boarding gate space is a nightmare. Even an EK 773 boarding is enough to get some people quite irate!

Even boarding a fully loaded A320 leaves people standing in those gate hold rooms. It's ridiculous! If certain stands can fit the A380, they'll need to control boarding from the entrance to the gate, it's really a mess.



Would you like fries with that? I didn't think so.
User currently offlineCX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
There is talk in Jakarta that LH will delink KUL from BKK and start a nonstop FRA KUL service, which would then be extended to CGK.
Quoting SQ325 (Reply 12):
There are strong rumors that are saying that BKK will lose its B744 and get an A346 instead.
Maybe there will be a FRA-KUL-CGK in the future!

I heard that the FRA-BKK flight will be moved to MUC and then be operated with Airbus.

So they could use the FRA slot for a KUL-CGK routation. Crew overnight costs in KL should also be substantially cheaper than in S'pore.

Question then remains what will happen to SGN which is currently served via BKK from FRA: Either non-stop to better compete with VN and AF, or via BKK out of Munich several days per week.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2832 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 9591 times:

Interesting, sounds like this may simply be the end of LH's MUC-SIN route but not necessarily a LH withdrawal from CGK/Indonesia.

Quoting gardermoen (Reply 2):
I hope this is not another victim of the EY/QR/EK effect.
Quoting nethkt (Reply 15):
For sure, EK, EY, QR, TK are being main reasons for these cancellations.

I highly doubt TK is a major culprit here. Their CGK service also has a SIN stopover, making it equally unattractive to the LH service for connecting pax - a connection in MUC/IST, and then another hour or so on the ground at SIN. For those that live in markets with nonstop EK, EY, and/or QR service, pax can enjoy a seamless one-stop connection option through DXB/AUH/DOH, given that there is nonstop service to CGK from those hubs. Even so, I would imagine the main reason for this cancellation is SQ, which launched MUC-SIN back in 2010. I would imagine they grabbed a substantial chunk of O&D traffic between Munich and Singapore, leaving LH with much more lower-yielding connecting traffic than before.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
There is talk in Jakarta that LH will delink KUL from BKK and start a nonstop FRA KUL service, which would then be extended to CGK. LH has been suffering the effects from EK/QR/EY as well as TK in CGK and it is losing out in KUL not only to the Middle Eastern carriers, but also to KL, which goes nonstop daily into KUL and will reinforce frequencies there to 10 weekly from the winter.

If LH is really struggling in KUL, I suspect they would be far more likely to drop service to the market rather than upgrade it to a nonstop service. I have no idea how much traffic there is between Germany and CGK, but I doubt it is enough to save a weak LH Southeast Asian route/market from the axe. If the CGK-bound pax weren't helping MUC-SIN make the cut, I daresay they wouldn't do much good for FRA-KUL either.

First the European majors retrenched from Australasia, ceding the market to Southeast Asian and Middle Eastern competitors. It seems like this is now happening with secondary Southeast Asian markets as well, particularly those like MNL, KUL, and CGK which apparently don't have the yields to support much in the way of nonstop service to Europe. The notable exception appears to be KL, which is not only maintaining service to the likes of MNL (long after all other European competitors pulled out) and apparently thriving in CGK, but also rapidly expanding service in the region with new services to secondary Chinese markets! Obviously with regard to CGK the old colonial ties between the Netherlands and Indonesia must play their part, but why are they also the only European airline able to make TPE, MNL, CTU, etc. work? Is it due to relatively low costs, a strong AMS hub that is not heavily constrained by slots/runway facilities/terminal capacity like other major European hubs, or...?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
What is CGK waiting for? Seems to me Indonesia is a perfect candidate for the whale jet.

CGK is probably waiting for an airline to firmly commit to A380 service before investing in all of the costly facilities improvements necessary to support the aircraft. We saw this happen with a number of U.S. airports, IAH and MIA spring to mind. I would imagine the only potential A380 service at CGK would be EK, and even that may be years off as the airline probably has a lot of other markets in mind for the aircraft before CGK.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8210 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 22):
Obviously with regard to CGK the old colonial ties between the Netherlands and Indonesia must play their part, but why are they also the only European airline able to make TPE, MNL, CTU, etc. work?

AF/KL is not the only one making secondary Chinese destinations work (LH and AY are also in this market). However, KL has Skyteam partners GA in Indonesia, CI in Taiwan and MU/CZ in China. This will probably help KL a little bit. Moreover, KL is the only Euroepan major which can't support a dedicated flight to SIN, thus calling it successful.....

Anyway, rumours are that GA will introduce a nonstop CGK-AMS next year when their 77Ws arrive. Will be interesting if this materialises as rumours also suggest that their CGK-DXB-AMS isn't performing well.


User currently offlinevisualapproach From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2012, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 12):

Well, I had a KUL-BKK booking and my booking management app has just notified me that the times have changed, along with the aircraft from 747 to A340-600.


25 frat : I highly doubt that BKK will only be connected to MUC and not FRA.
26 Docpepz : Lufthansa operates the following services to the far east from Munich: Delhi Mumbai Seoul Hong Kong Beijing Shanghai Tokyo Singapore/Jakarta On the SI
27 LJ : Why not? They also have TG serving BKK 2 daily ex FRA thus no real need to have a flight ex FRA. Moreover the current FRA-BKK flight is scheduled lat
28 frat : Because LH strategy so far had no longhaul flights in MUC to destinations without FRA connex. So far CLT was the only exception with reasons in the a
29 cedarjet : Interesting that both of SQ's German destinations have tag-ons: MUC (777) continues to MAN and FRA (A380) continues to JFK.
30 CX288 : Montreal is also served only out of MUC by LH (AC flies between YMQ and FRA, but US operates between CLT and FRA)
31 Senchingo : "The far east... Delhi, Mumbai" Are they actually considered far east? "On Seoul from KE (different alliance)" KE is not serving MUC. They did with c
32 FlyingHollander : I think I would consider those further east than the Middle East as apposed to the Far East... On an other note, I hope KLM will now be able to serve
33 flyingalex : SIN-FRA is twice daily though. SQ25/SQ26 is an early morning arrival/noon depature on the A380, SQ325/SQ326 is an early evening arrival/late evening
34 frat : You are right with YUL being also a sole MUC destination for LH but AC is in a JV with LH whereas US is not.
35 Post contains links OJ99 : Now officially confirmed: LH will end MUC-SIN-CGK on October 14th 2012. Passengers booked to SIN after this day will be rebooked via FRA. Service to C
36 airevents : Wow, a lot of network-downsizing at the moment...
37 Turkish350XWB : They are saying that the reason is the lack of a 3rd runway and that the current infrastructure is not capable. I think this is just a false pretense
38 frat : Bingo. Every suspension or downgauching in MUC is because oft the decision to not build the 3rd runway. Same thing in FRA where there reason for redu
39 mloew : IMO switching FRA-BKK to MUC would make no sense as a) TG has a daily 744 MUC-BKK flight (which might gets the new 77W in near future) b) TG has two d
40 LH506 : I already wrote about a year ago, after LH closed Kalkotta, CAN & HYD, that the next destinations to be stopped will be CGK, KUL and SGN. Said to
41 LH422 : CGK was almost the furthest destination from home (after EZE, I believe?). Hard to believe LH used to fly to Australia. So how many of these tag-on fl
42 OJ99 : There are only a couple of them left that come to my mind: ex FRA: - SGN (via BKK) - KUL (via BKK) - MCT (via RUH) - BAH (via DOH) - ADD (via KRT) -
43 tailfin : Agreed. But at some stage it just becomes ridiculous. The airports and politicians aren't that stupid surely. And LH could end up doing themselves no
44 mloew : Plus there is a MUC-RUH-JED flight (but it is rather new)
45 LH422 : I can think of FRA-SHE-TAO FRA-GYD-ASB FRA-KZN-PEE What did we miss?
46 tailfin : FRA-TSE-ALA (if it counts, as it generally operates a triangle route FRA-TSE-ALA-FRA or FRA-ALA-TSE-FRA) FRA-LBV-PNR (although operated by Privatair
47 LJ : Have you ever seen a press release announcing a cancellation where they site poor demand as a reason? It's always the fault of an exterior circumstan
48 r2rho : Though there is no doubt that it will happen in the coming years, it is still far too early to be closing routes citing the still very fresh decision
49 Docpepz : Word just out that SQ is reducing SINFRAJFK to 77W from A380 in Northern Winter 2012. This means the loss of 200 seats a day SINFRA and with LH, that'
50 jumpjets : See the BA winter 2012 changes page - many cancellations are ascribed to 'poor revenue performance' - but maybe as these are all ex-BMI flights they
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