CityAirline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 642 posts, RR: 1 Posted (10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15773 times:
Hey!
It seems like Lufthansa is not allowing any bookings on MUC-SIN-CGK from late October and onwards, which would mean the end of Lufthansa service to Indonesia. Does anyone know more about this?
EBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 885 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15743 times:
It was posted on airlineroutes.net yesterday
As per 17JUL12 GDS inventory display, Lufthansa from 28OCT12 is cancelling Munich – Singapore – Jakarta service. Reservation for the 5 weekly service is closed, and there are no words whether overall service to Jakarta will be kept.
Cassi From Hungary, joined Apr 2010, 54 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15340 times:
There is no doubt that most of the long (12+ hours) A343/A346 routes are in trouble at the current high fuel prices and we are going to see more cuts. For some competitor airlines like EK it is a much more efficient 6 + 8 hour flight with 77W's.
smbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15020 times:
I think in current environment it makes much more sense just to put code on Singapore Airlines flight. Anyway, passenger experience is the same, AFAIK passengers need to leave the aircraft in SIN.
I was on FRA-BKK-KUL flight last year and it was quite bad experience. Need to leave an aircraft in BKK, 2 hours for completing boarding again and continue journey in almost empty B744. Even it could be better experience just to transfer to Thai in BKK.
I think, tag-on's make sense only if stop is other alliance partner territory.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4414 posts, RR: 76 Reply 8, posted (10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14794 times:
There is talk in Jakarta that LH will delink KUL from BKK and start a nonstop FRA KUL service, which would then be extended to CGK. LH has been suffering the effects from EK/QR/EY as well as TK in CGK and it is losing out in KUL not only to the Middle Eastern carriers, but also to KL, which goes nonstop daily into KUL and will reinforce frequencies there to 10 weekly from the winter.
The FRA SIN service will definitely not be extended into CGK, because CGK cannot handle the A388. So if KUL CGK does not happen, I fear that the only alternative is for the curtain to fall over LH in CGK.
smbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14641 times:
Quoting ManekS (Reply 9): Very unexpected. I always thought the flight was lucrative, at least the MUC-SIN portion. Does anyone have insights into the route's performance?
I was on FRA-SIN few times both on SQ and LH.
LH A380 all times was about 60-70% in J and Y classes, so I think they have some issues to fill A380. Maybe they reduce overall capacity to SIN and drop of MUC will help them to fill A380 FRA-SIN.
Actually, I think it is quite hard in-alliance competition. SQ usually are more or less the same price as LH, but better service in many aspects, especially business class on their A380's.
SQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1437 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14237 times:
There are strong rumors that are saying that BKK will lose its B744 and get an A346 instead.
Maybe there will be a FRA-KUL-CGK in the future! Who knows but currently I have the feeling nobody within LH knows what to expect for the near future.
nethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 985 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12256 times:
Quoting iainbhx (Reply 14): Sorry to lose MUC-SIN, but the fact that it was fairly easy to upgrade C to F on it, obviously meant that the premium demand wasn't there.
Correct, and also it's super easy to get award on any classes on MUC-SIN.
Try searching from United.com award travel! There are always seats open for award tickets.
The Munich hub isn't easy to operate the long haul flights to Asia. Even MUC-HKG, NRT etc where aircraft swap to smaller ones and frequency reduced are often seen. That's one indicator LH is trying their best to adjust to the correct operations. If all the premium classes are really lucrative, I don't think they'd swap aircraft and reduce flight that often.
For sure, EK, EY, QR, TK are being main reasons for these cancellations.
Don't be annoyed knowing the passengers around you are non-revs and op-upgraders, be grateful for them. Life is beautifu
thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1964 posts, RR: 12 Reply 16, posted (10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11681 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8): The FRA SIN service will definitely not be extended into CGK, because CGK cannot handle the A388.
What is CGK waiting for? Seems to me Indonesia is a perfect candidate for the whale jet.
What is the problem, runways and taxiways cannot handle the weight, or is it something else?Having a look at CGK on google earth, seems to me they have at least a few stands with double air bridges. Might it be that they cant accomodate Code F aircraft ?
Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
WROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 810 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9834 times:
Quoting smbukas (Reply 10): LH A380 all times was about 60-70% in J and Y classes, so I think they have some issues to fill A380. Maybe they reduce overall capacity to SIN and drop of MUC will help them to fill A380 FRA-SIN.
This iseactly what hey are doing. SIN-CGK can be done on other airline even if SQ des not want to code-share with LH.
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6175 posts, RR: 74 Reply 19, posted (10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9127 times:
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16): What is the problem, runways and taxiways cannot handle the weight, or is it something else?Having a look at CGK on google earth, seems to me they have at least a few stands with double air bridges. Might it be that they cant accomodate Code F aircraft ?
It's not the apron... Stand D11 (gate D1) can probably handle the 380... D21 (gate D2) probably aswell, but not concurrently.
On the rest of the gates at T2, don't the appearance deceive you, it is VERY tight in some spots that not even a 744 can get in (D71 is one, and then D/E/F41 and D/E/F42).
And then... the boarding gate space is a nightmare. Even an EK 773 boarding is enough to get some people quite irate!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
SIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 69 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8875 times:
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19): the boarding gate space is a nightmare. Even an EK 773 boarding is enough to get some people quite irate!
Even boarding a fully loaded A320 leaves people standing in those gate hold rooms. It's ridiculous! If certain stands can fit the A380, they'll need to control boarding from the entrance to the gate, it's really a mess.
Bon Jovi - Train - Matchbox Twenty - Matt Nathanson - Neon Trees
CX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8750 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8): There is talk in Jakarta that LH will delink KUL from BKK and start a nonstop FRA KUL service, which would then be extended to CGK.
Quoting SQ325 (Reply 12): There are strong rumors that are saying that BKK will lose its B744 and get an A346 instead.
Maybe there will be a FRA-KUL-CGK in the future!
I heard that the FRA-BKK flight will be moved to MUC and then be operated with Airbus.
So they could use the FRA slot for a KUL-CGK routation. Crew overnight costs in KL should also be substantially cheaper than in S'pore.
Question then remains what will happen to SGN which is currently served via BKK from FRA: Either non-stop to better compete with VN and AF, or via BKK out of Munich several days per week.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2588 posts, RR: 31 Reply 22, posted (10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8525 times:
Interesting, sounds like this may simply be the end of LH's MUC-SIN route but not necessarily a LH withdrawal from CGK/Indonesia.
Quoting gardermoen (Reply 2): I hope this is not another victim of the EY/QR/EK effect.
Quoting nethkt (Reply 15): For sure, EK, EY, QR, TK are being main reasons for these cancellations.
I highly doubt TK is a major culprit here. Their CGK service also has a SIN stopover, making it equally unattractive to the LH service for connecting pax - a connection in MUC/IST, and then another hour or so on the ground at SIN. For those that live in markets with nonstop EK, EY, and/or QR service, pax can enjoy a seamless one-stop connection option through DXB/AUH/DOH, given that there is nonstop service to CGK from those hubs. Even so, I would imagine the main reason for this cancellation is SQ, which launched MUC-SIN back in 2010. I would imagine they grabbed a substantial chunk of O&D traffic between Munich and Singapore, leaving LH with much more lower-yielding connecting traffic than before.
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8): There is talk in Jakarta that LH will delink KUL from BKK and start a nonstop FRA KUL service, which would then be extended to CGK. LH has been suffering the effects from EK/QR/EY as well as TK in CGK and it is losing out in KUL not only to the Middle Eastern carriers, but also to KL, which goes nonstop daily into KUL and will reinforce frequencies there to 10 weekly from the winter.
If LH is really struggling in KUL, I suspect they would be far more likely to drop service to the market rather than upgrade it to a nonstop service. I have no idea how much traffic there is between Germany and CGK, but I doubt it is enough to save a weak LH Southeast Asian route/market from the axe. If the CGK-bound pax weren't helping MUC-SIN make the cut, I daresay they wouldn't do much good for FRA-KUL either.
First the European majors retrenched from Australasia, ceding the market to Southeast Asian and Middle Eastern competitors. It seems like this is now happening with secondary Southeast Asian markets as well, particularly those like MNL, KUL, and CGK which apparently don't have the yields to support much in the way of nonstop service to Europe. The notable exception appears to be KL, which is not only maintaining service to the likes of MNL (long after all other European competitors pulled out) and apparently thriving in CGK, but also rapidly expanding service in the region with new services to secondary Chinese markets! Obviously with regard to CGK the old colonial ties between the Netherlands and Indonesia must play their part, but why are they also the only European airline able to make TPE, MNL, CTU, etc. work? Is it due to relatively low costs, a strong AMS hub that is not heavily constrained by slots/runway facilities/terminal capacity like other major European hubs, or...?
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16): What is CGK waiting for? Seems to me Indonesia is a perfect candidate for the whale jet.
CGK is probably waiting for an airline to firmly commit to A380 service before investing in all of the costly facilities improvements necessary to support the aircraft. We saw this happen with a number of U.S. airports, IAH and MIA spring to mind. I would imagine the only potential A380 service at CGK would be EK, and even that may be years off as the airline probably has a lot of other markets in mind for the aircraft before CGK.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4141 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7144 times:
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 22): Obviously with regard to CGK the old colonial ties between the Netherlands and Indonesia must play their part, but why are they also the only European airline able to make TPE, MNL, CTU, etc. work?
AF/KL is not the only one making secondary Chinese destinations work (LH and AY are also in this market). However, KL has Skyteam partners GA in Indonesia, CI in Taiwan and MU/CZ in China. This will probably help KL a little bit. Moreover, KL is the only Euroepan major which can't support a dedicated flight to SIN, thus calling it successful.....
Anyway, rumours are that GA will introduce a nonstop CGK-AMS next year when their 77Ws arrive. Will be interesting if this materialises as rumours also suggest that their CGK-DXB-AMS isn't performing well.
Well, I had a KUL-BKK booking and my booking management app has just notified me that the times have changed, along with the aircraft from 747 to A340-600.
25 frat: I highly doubt that BKK will only be connected to MUC and not FRA.
26 Docpepz: Lufthansa operates the following services to the far east from Munich: Delhi Mumbai Seoul Hong Kong Beijing Shanghai Tokyo Singapore/Jakarta On the SI
27 LJ: Why not? They also have TG serving BKK 2 daily ex FRA thus no real need to have a flight ex FRA. Moreover the current FRA-BKK flight is scheduled lat
28 frat: Because LH strategy so far had no longhaul flights in MUC to destinations without FRA connex. So far CLT was the only exception with reasons in the a
29 cedarjet: Interesting that both of SQ's German destinations have tag-ons: MUC (777) continues to MAN and FRA (A380) continues to JFK.
30 CX288: Montreal is also served only out of MUC by LH (AC flies between YMQ and FRA, but US operates between CLT and FRA)
31 Senchingo: "The far east... Delhi, Mumbai" Are they actually considered far east? "On Seoul from KE (different alliance)" KE is not serving MUC. They did with c
32 FlyingHollander: I think I would consider those further east than the Middle East as apposed to the Far East... On an other note, I hope KLM will now be able to serve
33 flyingalex: SIN-FRA is twice daily though. SQ25/SQ26 is an early morning arrival/noon depature on the A380, SQ325/SQ326 is an early evening arrival/late evening
34 frat: You are right with YUL being also a sole MUC destination for LH but AC is in a JV with LH whereas US is not.
35 OJ99: Now officially confirmed: LH will end MUC-SIN-CGK on October 14th 2012. Passengers booked to SIN after this day will be rebooked via FRA. Service to C
36 airevents: Wow, a lot of network-downsizing at the moment...
37 Turkish350XWB: They are saying that the reason is the lack of a 3rd runway and that the current infrastructure is not capable. I think this is just a false pretense
38 frat: Bingo. Every suspension or downgauching in MUC is because oft the decision to not build the 3rd runway. Same thing in FRA where there reason for redu
39 mloew: IMO switching FRA-BKK to MUC would make no sense as a) TG has a daily 744 MUC-BKK flight (which might gets the new 77W in near future) b) TG has two d
40 LH506: I already wrote about a year ago, after LH closed Kalkotta, CAN & HYD, that the next destinations to be stopped will be CGK, KUL and SGN. Said to
41 LH422: CGK was almost the furthest destination from home (after EZE, I believe?). Hard to believe LH used to fly to Australia. So how many of these tag-on fl
42 OJ99: There are only a couple of them left that come to my mind: ex FRA: - SGN (via BKK) - KUL (via BKK) - MCT (via RUH) - BAH (via DOH) - ADD (via KRT) -
43 tailfin: Agreed. But at some stage it just becomes ridiculous. The airports and politicians aren't that stupid surely. And LH could end up doing themselves no
44 mloew: Plus there is a MUC-RUH-JED flight (but it is rather new)
45 LH422: I can think of FRA-SHE-TAO FRA-GYD-ASB FRA-KZN-PEE What did we miss?
46 tailfin: FRA-TSE-ALA (if it counts, as it generally operates a triangle route FRA-TSE-ALA-FRA or FRA-ALA-TSE-FRA) FRA-LBV-PNR (although operated by Privatair
47 LJ: Have you ever seen a press release announcing a cancellation where they site poor demand as a reason? It's always the fault of an exterior circumstan
48 r2rho: Though there is no doubt that it will happen in the coming years, it is still far too early to be closing routes citing the still very fresh decision
49 Docpepz: Word just out that SQ is reducing SINFRAJFK to 77W from A380 in Northern Winter 2012. This means the loss of 200 seats a day SINFRA and with LH, that'
50 jumpjets: See the BA winter 2012 changes page - many cancellations are ascribed to 'poor revenue performance' - but maybe as these are all ex-BMI flights they
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