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KL 807/808 (AMS-TPE-MNL V/V): Why Fly Over HKG?  
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

So two weeks ago, I finally came home to the Philippines from Poland. And while I was on the flight home, I noticed that the initial leg of my flight to MNL, AMS-TPE, was routed to fly over Hong Kong, the same way Taiwanese airlines used to fly to mainland China before direct cross-Strait flights were introduced just a few years ago. The flight flew through Xinjiang and central China, exited through Hong Kong, then headed east towards TPE.

With the big fuss about KL 803/804 (the nonstop AMS-MNL flight) becoming one-stop, I was under the impression that when KLM was given permission to fly over China, it would do so (flying to TPE) via the shortest possible route. But the question still stands: why does KLM need to fly over Hong Kong in order to get to Taipei, when there are shorter alternatives? Maybe the collective wisdom of A.Net can help me here.

[Edited 2012-07-18 09:26:27]

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 912 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

As part of easing the restrictions on cross-strait (PRC to ROC) flights, the first step was allowing flights to transit via Hong Kong airspace. Only later was that restriction removed. Perhaps it still (has always?) applies for foreign carriers to/from TPE?

User currently offlineHooverman From Netherlands, joined Oct 2011, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4751 times:

KLM and Taiwan are a strange bunch. KLM is the only airline left with an "Asia" brand supposely to not upset China and now this...

User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1918 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

I also presume some of the cross-strait areas are highly military sensitive zones and commercial planes possibly have to apply for special rights to operate the flight over those areas. For Taipei to Hong Kong, the plane always headed towards Makung Islands and than turned west into Hong Kong... same with all North American to Hong Kong traffic... that cross strait areas seem highly sensitive and most commercial planes just avoid them if they can.

I hope someone can give us a more professional explanation.

When China Airlines flew the nonstop Taipei to London flights, some of their flights will fly towards Japan and then towards Russia...

But KLM always fly via Hong Kong airspace for the nonstop AMS to TPE flight... even when they are flying nonstop to MNL, the flights often fly via Hong Kong airspace... indeed most of the Middle East to Manila flights also fly via Hong Kong airspace especially towards eastbound towards Manila.

Carfield


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

Quoting Carfield (Reply 3):
When China Airlines flew the nonstop Taipei to London flights, some of their flights will fly towards Japan and then towards Russia...

Same for their VIE flights. Note that the KL flight is shorter than the CI flight to VIE (and VIE is closer to TPE than AMS), thus KL does use a shorter route than CI.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 3):

But KLM always fly via Hong Kong airspace for the nonstop AMS to TPE flight... even when they are flying nonstop to MNL, the flights often fly via Hong Kong airspace... indeed most of the Middle East to Manila flights also fly via Hong Kong airspace especially towards eastbound towards Manila.

Lower air traffic fees perhaps??


User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2449 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Did this flight overfly China airspace? Was it routed north of south the Himalaya's?
Just curious.

Thanks,
PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4065 times:

Quoting Carfield (Reply 3):
But KLM always fly via Hong Kong airspace for the nonstop AMS to TPE flight... even when they are flying nonstop to MNL, the flights often fly via Hong Kong airspace... indeed most of the Middle East to Manila flights also fly via Hong Kong airspace especially towards eastbound towards Manila.

Which logically makes sense. AMS-MNL (and back) has always flown through Hong Kong airspace but at least proceeds to fly to its destination in a relatively neat arc, whereas on AMS-TPE, I thought we were going to land in HKG or something (or i thought I was on the AMS-HKG flight) before the plane headed east towards Taiwan.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 5):
Did this flight overfly China airspace? Was it routed north of south the Himalaya's?
Just curious.

I said the flight flew through Xinjiang and central China before exiting through Hong Kong, so yes, it overflew China. But if AMS-MNL is doable while avoiding China (it happened once, when I flew KL 804 to AMS sometime last year), then AMS-TPE could also do the same.


User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2449 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 6):
said the flight flew through Xinjiang and central China before exiting through Hong Kong, so yes, it overflew China

Oeps, my bad. You indeed wrote that.

Sorry!
PW100

[Edited 2012-07-19 09:17:32]


Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

The Hong Kong to Europe flights route due west from Hong Kong, turning right at Changsha, overflying Chengdu / Chongqing and Lanzhou, turning left, and heading towards Urumqi before exiting china. This is not the most direct, but seems to be the routing of late. Perhaps it is avoiding the chaos that is the central chinese airspace.

Flights from shanghai, etc tend to head north to Beijing before heading west as far as Ulan Bator - followed by a right turn towards novosibirsk and ekaterinburg.



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