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WN To Pay $100m To Upgrade 717s Subleased To DL  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7692 posts, RR: 15
Posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22360 times:

If you believe Southwest, Delta is a bunch of idiots for taking these planes when 737s save $200 million. I actually tend to think Delta was smarter than WN makes them appear. It's really relevant since WN will now compete with these planes. Lol

She said Southwest had expected to pay about $50 million to remodel them as Southwest aircraft.

Asked why the spending went up, CEO Gary Kelly said it was just part of making a deal with Delta.

Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

Wright estimated the benefit of using bigger planes at $200 million per year once all 88 have gone to Delta.




http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-...ay-100m-to-fix-up-planes-for-delta

121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22311 times:

It's a win win. DL can probably make more money with these 717s than WN could... leases are being renegotiated and the use will be different. I don't think DL or WN's management team is stupid... prone to mistakes, but not flat out stupid


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1743 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22267 times:

Different business models. Need for different plaines.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22166 times:

Ok...so is WN receiving 88 B737's by 2015 to replace 1 for 1 B717 flying???

Otherwise this explanation is just a bit strange/self serving to me...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22105 times:

I hope DL is catering lunch to WN at least monthly. This merger is like a dream come true for them.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

That sounds swell. I wonder how many of the 717 routes will exist in 2 or 3 years, compared to pre-merger. We all know ATL will look very different once the FL network is destroyed...errrr reorganized.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21929 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
If you believe Southwest, Delta is a bunch of idiots for taking these planes when 737s save $200 million. I actually tend to think Delta was smarter than WN makes them appear. It's really relevant since WN will now compete with these planes. Lol

I suppose the question is how directly these aircraft will compete with WN -- or will they go into a lot of markets that now see the CR7/CR9/E170/E175 from DL? My thought is that DL already uses mainline aircraft like the 757/738/M88/M90/A319/A320 in most ATL markets where AirTran flies -- so WN will end up competing in ATL using more efficient (compared to the 717) 73G's & 738's.

When their 73G's first entered the fleet, I recall FL management saying how pleased they were with the 73G since they essentially gained 15-20 seats for free with trip costs comparable to the 717. That's essentially what WN management has argued as well. It seems obvious to me that eating $100 million to reconfigure the 717's for DL is a lot cheaper than terminating the leases early.

It's obviously good for DL, but more because the pilots will accept more large RJ's in exchange for the expanded mainline fleet -- and the larger RJ's and 717's are far, far more efficient than the enormous CR2 fleet DL currently deploys as DL Connection.

So it really does seem like a win for both parties -- WN gets rid of aircraft they didn't want to keep and DL replaces relatively inefficient aircraft with modern aircraft at a modest cost. The DL guys did a good job of negotiating to get WN to eat the conversion costs -- but it's only $50 million net more than WN would have spent on the conversion anyway. And WN seems to think they make it back in operating efficiencies in the first year.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21828 times:

Don't forget, WN is all coach, DL has F... that can help increase the revenue for the 717s


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2727 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21699 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

Then why did it take so long for WN to order 738s if the 73G has more seats than the 717 for roughly the same trip cost??

Does WN think there's something magic about 137 seats and that more than 137 have never been needed until they ordered the 738??
Routes are about frequency, seats and yield. WN could have made money with the 717 with lower ownership cost. WN could have bumped up load factor, frequency or yield to make the 717s work. It just seems to me that WN is too locked into their own formula and unwilling to think anything else can work. Get flexible WN!

As for DL, they seem to be the king of used aircraft which may have maintenance and/or fuel cost bite them in the long run. The 717 may be a good move, but it means 176 50 seat RJs will go away and I'd guess mainline pilots will fly the 717. Does DL think halving frequency on RJ markets makes sense?

Is the 717 maintenance-common with the MD90?


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21556 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Kelly said that Southwest will earn so much more money flying the bigger 737s on the same routes that "we will pay for that conversion cost in the first six months."

Wright estimated the benefit of using bigger planes at $200 million per year once all 88 have gone to Delta.

You can't argue with this. I'm glad both DL and WN were happy with the deal and that came about without too much negotiating. Now I'll have 4 similar-looking aircraft to try to tell apart: all operated by DL!


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21560 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
As for DL, they seem to be the king of used aircraft which may have maintenance and/or fuel cost bite them in the long run.

Much of the NW management is now with DL, and they seemed to be the best at running aircraft into the ground. Sometimes low ownership costs outweigh fuel, even when fuel is really high. Don't forget, DL is also getting newer aircraft, they have 739s on order and I expect them to order the MAX and/or NEO in the next few years

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Does DL think halving frequency on RJ markets makes sense?

Considering how inefficient 50 seaters are, I'd say yes. I know frequency plays a big role, but what good is frequency if you're not making money on the route anyway?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1041 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21525 times:

I love statements from Kelly!
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?

Seams to be a huge contradiction, originally to serve markets more suited to 115 seat aircraft. Now he is backing himself into a corner that a freshman in Journalism 101 could see through.
First he said "With our merger application to the DOJ we can serve many cities that were too small for high density B737's."
Now he says "We can serve cities better with B737 capacity than with those B717 RJ's."

He closed 15 cities so whats up, which is it?
Was it he lied to the DOJ or was he too stupid to do due diligence on FL assets and routes before making the acquisition?

Either way seams like a CYA that the average eighth grader would have figured out.
If it doesn't work I don't want to spend my savings on it.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21507 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Is the 717 maintenance-common with the MD90?

The 717 was marketed as the MD-95 before Boeing re-marketed it as the 717.
Much more glass up front than a DC-9 but would guess there is a lot of similar systems but not necessarily the same parts.

As far as pilots are concerned I would suspect only a short familiarisation course for someone already with the DC9 on their license.

Okie


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21402 times:

I can't believe it that an airline 1.) still flies these fuel guzzeling dogs and 2.) pays money to upgrade them!

My god, and here in asia we think 737s are inefficient and fuel guzzlers...


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8372 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21333 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 12):

I can't believe it that an airline 1.) still flies these fuel guzzeling dogs and 2.) pays money to upgrade them!

717's are some of the most fuel efficient jets on the planet...



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21274 times:

N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

Happy to learn, always!


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21134 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
717's are some of the most fuel efficient jets on the planet...

Airtran reported that they were 24% more efficient than the DC9's they replaced and actually more efficient than they were expecting -- http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/news_release_001012a.html


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21129 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):

N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

And one heck of an airframe indeed to still be viable after so long. Same for the 737. The 717 is based on the D93, but has aerodynamic improvements (tailcone, vertical stabilizer, etc.,) , can fly a more efficient profile, and has more efficient engines.

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 12):
My god, and here in asia we think 737s are inefficient and fuel guzzlers...

What's considered an efficient narrow-body over there?

Quoting okie (Reply 11):
As far as pilots are concerned I would suspect only a short familiarisation course for someone already with the DC9 on their license.

Someone hit me over the head if I'm wrong, but I think a DC9 pilot would only have to take a "differences" course.. much like a CR2 pilot moving to a CR7 or 9.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
I love statements from Kelly!
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?

Seams to be a huge contradiction, originally to serve markets more suited to 115 seat aircraft. Now he is backing himself into a corner that a freshman in Journalism 101 could see through.
First he said "With our merger application to the DOJ we can serve many cities that were too small for high density B737's."
Now he says "We can serve cities better with B737 capacity than with those B717 RJ's."

He closed 15 cities so whats up, which is it?
Was it he lied to the DOJ or was he too stupid to do due diligence on FL assets and routes before making the acquisition?

Things that make you go " hmmmmmm?". Relevant questions.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21080 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):

The 717 (originally named the MD95) uses the RR BR-715 engines which are very efficient, developed in the 1990s. Similar in efficiency to the A320 and the 737NGs.

The larger and older sister aircraft MD-90 uses the same IAE V2500 engines as the A320.

Fuel efficiency is all about the engines, as we can see by the Neo/max

Aluminum tubes don't have much in aerodynamic differences, especially in short haul.


User currently offlineairindia787 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21055 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):
N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

You are confusing the 717 with the DC-9. The oldest 717s are around 13 years old, with the youngest being only 6 years old.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21018 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 12):
My god, and here in asia we think 737s are inefficient and fuel guzzlers...

So, what do you have that is better, narrowbody wise? Please don't tell me the A320 family, because from what I gather on here, their fuel efficiency is only equal to the MD-90 or 717.

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 14):
N776UA, how can that be??? its an airframe which is, what, 40 years old (exaggerating a little here maybe...)?

The design is 47+ years old, but they've been sufficiently modernized to make that a moot point......at least the MD-90 and 717.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
and they seemed to be the best at running aircraft into the ground.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, DL was doing this LONG before the merger with NW. Nothing new for them. DL didn't get their 1st 737s until the mid 80's........their first 727s until the 70s with the merger with Northeast........we kept the 727s until the early 2000s, the Tristars stayed around for almost 30 years (using a/c from AC, EA & PA (via UA)). I think DL has had plenty of practice doing this.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20954 times:

Sorry, seems like i have mixed up my perception with the MD's then...

Thanks guys for the help!


User currently offlinepictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20891 times:

the air frame design may be 40 years old but even the dc-9-30's were relatively fuel efficient up to the mid 2000's. The B717 has new engines, new computer systems.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13543 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20625 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 7):
Does DL think halving frequency on RJ markets makes sense?

DL has no choice but to cut unprofitable 50 seat flying.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 16):
What's considered an efficient narrow-body over there?


From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 20446 times:

LMAO Lightsaber. That made me chuckle. Of course you know they have a high density seating for those over there for 30-40 pax a time.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
He has a reason for everything..... If the B717's were so bad then why did he purchase FL?

Umm, Atlanta? One less low fare competitor. International access. Several dozen 737s.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
Seams to be a huge contradiction, originally to serve markets more suited to 115 seat aircraft. Now he is backing himself into a corner that a freshman in Journalism 101 could see through.
First he said "With our merger application to the DOJ we can serve many cities that were too small for high density B737's."
Now he says "We can serve cities better with B737 capacity than with those B717 RJ's."

Perhaps it would have been better to say high frequency 737s. Since it is apparent the biggest change is not launching new markets with the one traditional 10-12 daily nonstops.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
He closed 15 cities so whats up, which is it?
Was it he lied to the DOJ or was he too stupid to do due diligence on FL assets and routes before making the acquisition?

Bleh, this part really doesn't deserve a response since your feelings towards WN are well documents in your past trolling of WN threads.

Quoting billreid (Reply 10):
Either way seams like a CYA that the average eighth grader would have figured out.
If it doesn't work I don't want to spend my savings on it.

So you are actually invested in WN? Which probably would be smart with the airline posting a record Q2.  


User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 19881 times:

UUgh, lets not confuse the fact that while the 717 looks similar to the DC-9-30 it does not share that much with it other than shape. Just like the 737NG or MAX for that matter share much of anything with the 737 100/200/300...etc. Yeah, they have the same cross section, nose......but everything else evolved. With the evolution of the DC-9 to MD-80 to MD-90 perhaps what evolved the least was the wing and while it was improved it was never completely replaced like the wing(s) of the successive generations of 737s. At any rate, the difference between the DC-9 of any version and the 717 is just about everything. Completely new avionics, engines, fuel systems, interior materials, lighter modern materials from the fuselage to the floors, gear doors, tail and vert stab assemblies, tail cones, nose cone, I could go on. The 717, mechanically is only vaguely genetically related to the 1960s technology of the DC-9. MDC kept what made sense to keep and improved or replaced everything else. The MD-90 was perhaps less of a leap past the MD-80 than was the 717 from the DC-9 but still the MD-90 was stretched, re-engined and improved incrementally in the department of avionics. It turned out that DL, which was to be the MD-90s largest and launch customer wanted the flight deck to be common to the MD-88 and thusly it did not receive the 717/MD-11 style flight deck layout. Of course, DL took only 16 of the original order they placed for 100 (or thereabouts). I imagine that if DL had not been instrumental in pushing MDC to make the flightdeck the same as the MD-88, all MD-90s would have gotten the Saudi MD-90 cockpit. Now almost all of the worlds MD-90s will probably end up at DL and who knows, maybe we will see a flight deck upgrade to what they should have had all along!!

25 JONC777 : GK is a bean counter. . . in this case im going to trust he has counted them. . . WN says that it basically costs the same to operate a 737-700 as a 7
26 DLPMMM : I have not seen any news releases of a gate swap agreement in ATL for DL and WN. Do you have a link?
27 JONC777 : this is not published. . . .but not exactly privilidged information either. . .
28 DLPMMM : Is there any source, or is this a rumor? I have seen one or two a.netters that theorized that a gate swap might happen, but I have not seen it from a
29 JONC777 : lol . . .loosely insider, no more than hearing people talk. . . but . . .the right people. . .but no. . . no quotable sourse. . .I'd say this has a h
30 Infiniti329 : Along with the above, buying FL gave WN more acess to hard to come by LGA slots. 07/12/12 is when the slot shuffle will begin and then progressively
31 Post contains images mayor : Lets just be sure, since this hasn't been released by DL, that this isn't proprietary information. I'm sure you know the rules
32 bobloblaw : That does not say anything positive about WN
33 United1 : I think it would make more sense the other way around....DL with all of C (current regional gates plus a bunch of new gates that are already sized fo
34 MLI717fan : When FL had the JetConnect flying by Air Wisconsin, they also said that the cost of running a CRJ was similar to that of running a 717. I doubt CRJ =
35 enilria : Here's my overall problem with WN's decision. They are saying they are going to take apart the AirTran bank structure at Atlanta. It's not going to b
36 JONC777 : I dunno, but the supposed mis management you see going on at WN resulted in a $275mln 2Q profit. . . .
37 Kcrwflyer : Some will argue that they are innovative and dynamic and changing and adapting, but at the end of the day you're right. It's not anything personal; j
38 Revelation : Or negative either... just different... DL's business model revolves around using smaller planes to bring people to hubs to put them onto larger plan
39 PanAm788 : Really funny that no one has asked what the $100 Million upgrades include. New seats and GoGo? I doubt that they're putting in AVOD.
40 KDAYflyer : Actually the 717 is a DC-9 30 fuselage, 9-40 wing and MD 87 tail with BMW/RR engines. Quite the almagamation of parts.
41 Post contains links mayor : According to the AJC, "Delta said it will have new seats installed on the planes, along with a full first class cabin, in-flight power, new galleys a
42 AADC10 : Of course that is what they said. It was a business statement where the company always need to say that they got the better end of the deal. They nee
43 cubastar : Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there is an AD out on the 717 from Boeing involving the fix of a crack problem in the fuselage of
44 DeltaL1011man : few things, It is kind of hard to compare the 717 to a A32S because of the seat difference. 717 vs the A318, the 717 blows the A318 (and 736) right o
45 bobloblaw : What it says is WN cant make money with a 120 seat plane, while DL can. WN's costs are making the company uncompetitive.
46 DeltaMD90 : I'm sure they could but it doesn't fit in their business plan as well as it does for DL Well I agree that costs are rising, and I'm sure it has the a
47 par13del : The 700 has more seats it is at the heart of the comment. As for the 73G, the 137 seat limit means no additional F/A, introducing that a/c adds incre
48 Post contains images mayor : The number for "rumor control" in ATL is 404-555-****
49 enilria : These chicken haven't come home to roost. They have not done anything of consequence despite two years to prepare. Air Tran still has bag fees, the c
50 Post contains images JONC777 : lol, dont believe me. . .its fine. . .when it comes true in 2014 ish ill remind you theres a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. . .and things a
51 gigneil : The planes have GoGo now. NS
52 XT6Wagon : What it says is that WN can make more acting as a leasing company during the transition period than it can dumping the frames onto the market. What i
53 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : why thank you. sorry, someone who hasn't been here a full month, and works in cargo, doesn't seem like the person I'm going to bet my life on. Really
54 JONC777 : lol . .relax man. . .no ones betting there life. . .its friendly airline chat. . or is it (ducks). . .
55 gigneil : For now, yes. NS
56 questions : And... what will this $100M be spent on exactly? I hope more than just exterior paint and "signature blue" leather seat covers slapped onto awful seat
57 FlyASAGuy2005 : I'm gonna tell you right now that this so called rumor is not true. Period. If there will be a swap it will be WN moving to D North, not DL moving to
58 questions : Why were concourses A, B, C, and D built different sizes, esp widths (D is 30 feet narrower)? All four were part of the original (current) ATL design
59 Post contains images mayor : I worked in cargo for about 26 years of my 33 and we were ALWAYS the last to know or hear anything. You DO know why they did that, don't you? It wasn
60 Post contains images questions : Sorry. Didn't forget, just zoomed past it. I'll slow down next time. re: "in-flight power" Isn't in-flight power a given on every aircraft flying tod
61 mayor : I'm sure that's what they meant........I got that from the Atlanta Journal Constitution.
62 DeltaL1011man : and C is a much better place. Just a common thing here. They are pretty much the same, just happen to have separate rooms. D is smaller because it wa
63 burnsie28 : But with the large reduction in RJ (50 seat flying) a lot of those gates are no longer needed.
64 m404 : The oft touted claim that Delta will use these 717s to replace 50 seats RJ is what seems incredibly suspicious to me. Any specifics on why they just w
65 SurfandSnow : LOL, I think most people would agree that this is a win-win situation for both carriers. WN gets to dump an orphan fleet type that would otherwise de
66 Infiniti329 : If WN wants a 100-seater (117 seater I know) why would they do it with similar cost of operating a 737. Lets use WN 73G with 143 seats as all 73G are
67 knope2001 : Actually, Southwest pulled out XM several months ago from AirTran aircraft.
68 mayor : You're about a decade off........what I'm talking about happened in the 80s. The DL/NW merger hadn't even happened, yet. BTW, in the time frame you'r
69 DeltaMD90 : The new scope puts a cap on RJs... not sure on the specifics, but I know for a fact it's a net GAIN for mainline. That's in the contract, not just a
70 mayor : Sorry......I meant the DL/WA merger
71 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's really not how C and D are set up. Every single gate on C north can park at least a CR7. Only C33, 39, 45, 51/32, 38, 44, and 50 can park 900s
72 TrijetsRMissed : Almost, KDAYflyer... The 717's fuselage has a three frame plug, forward of the wing, from a DC-9-30. Of course, this is to compensate for the larger
73 DeltaL1011man : So Delta, which already runs something like 12 flight per day per gate here is going to give up 29 gates, of which most can fit a CR7? You don't thin
74 flyer62 : the B-717s are not RJs as he posted,they are full size mainline jets,MUCH better than any RJs!
75 1337Delta764 : So, with WN paying for the mods, will DL or WN choose the models of the seats?
76 B757forever : DL is specifying which equipment is to be installed. The plan is to use the same seats as the "new" MD90.
77 1337Delta764 : That would be the Weber 6810 in F, Weber 5751 in Y. I guess I got my answer if the Y seats will be Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle (which will b
78 Post contains links and images lightsaber : What is interesting is how few see this as positive for both companies. Moody's credit rating agency does: http://www.moodys.com/research/Moody...west
79 DeltaL1011man : WN is paying for what Delta wants. eh we'll see in ~15 years.
80 lightsaber : Since the 717s are leased, I expect a shorter interval. That begs the question, what is the lease interval? I speculate longer than WN would keep the
81 DeltaL1011man : I don't. Lease or Own the current Delta leadership has made it pretty clear a plane gets the proper ROI after 30 years. I truly expect Delta to eithe
82 justloveplanes : Record profits this quarter, that answers that I think.... and a balance sheet to match.
83 aviators99 : This all seems like obvious stuff, with no surprises. Why do some press reports say that will cost "more than expected"?[Edited 2012-07-22 08:04:29]
84 Delimit : Re: reply 81. That only applies to owned. It's the period needed to justify the massive capital outlay of the purchase. Leased aircraft don't have tha
85 FlyASAGuy2005 : I have to find my original post from another thread but ill post my opinion..
86 mayor : I believe this refers to the fact that the costs are doubling compared to what WN was going to spend to convert them for their own use.
87 FlyASAGuy2005 : We were talking about this very same thing in the other 717 thread. Here's what I said to LHCVG: LHCVG: ME:
88 Delimit : Hey, they may keep them for a while. I don't really have an opinion on that front, although as no one else is going to want them, DL should be able to
89 AVLAirlineFreq : I'd been wondering how DL would manage to fit an influx of 717s into D concourse in ATL, unless their plans were to relocate much of the smaller DCI
90 B757forever : Delta has specified that the cabins be the same configuration on all aircraft upon delivery. Because the 717 fleet is a mixture of Airtran, Midwest a
91 akelley728 : They are using the 70+ seat RJs to replace the 50 seaters. The 717s are being used to replace the 70 seaters. It's all a downstream effect.
92 barney captain : FWIW, this is the information we are being given; Of the $140M it will cost to convert 717s to Delta, $40M is covered by a credit from Boeing, and $50
93 billreid : I was not posting about profitability, but rather contradicting statements. Maybe Kelly should run for President because he changes his mind every th
94 DTWPurserBoy : Not really. Most of the people sitting up there are frequent flyer upgrades. I have to laugh when I see 63 people wait-listed for FC on an aircraft w
95 TrijetsRMissed : I doubt it, lightsaber. At an average age of 10.6 years, the 717 fleet is on-par with DL's active 737NG and A319 fleets, in terms of age; and younger
96 lightsaber : We can agree there. DL will replace other airframes earlier. Once other airframes are replaced, the engine maintenance of the 717 and its relative fu
97 TZTriStar500 : There are no ex-Midwest aircraft in the Airtran fleet, only ex-TW and the variation in those are different seats. The 717 fleet as a whole has little
98 dtw9 : There's also 2 former Bangkok air and one ex-Hawaiian 717 in the fleet
99 TZTriStar500 : Ah, that's right...forgot about those. I recall the Bangkok Air ones where a condition of FL's last 737 lease deal.
100 MSPNWA : The two former Bangkok Air birds were originally TW, so really the lone ex-HA frame is the only pure oddball.
101 TrijetsRMissed : Well, nothing lasts forever. Someday every plane in the fleet today will be replaced. But with 717, it's not the fuel burn that will seal it's fate.
102 enilria : But not very positive if ratings are unaffected...
103 gigneil : I missed this before. The 717 is a DC-9. NS
104 akelley728 : How did this example wind up in Airtran's fleet? HA has a number of 717s, why get rid of this particular one?
105 dtw9 : Back in 2003 HA was in terrible shape financially and was looking at replacing the entire 717 fleet with MD-80's. Hawaiians lease terms with Boeing f
106 jbmitt : I flown it on Airtran. The sidewalls are different, and I sort of recall there be a Hawaiian lei print somewhere.
107 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : With the quantity of MD-90s and 717s that Delta is acquiring and may acquire in the future, Delta can economically operate these aircraft easily for
108 xdlx : Nobody pays for F/C domestic .... are you kidding?
109 DeltaMD90 : Says who? I'm not aware of this. Do you have a source? Besides the fact that the "upgrade screens appear full." I mean I could be wrong. If these sea
110 FlyASAGuy2005 : People love to throw this one out there but it simply isn't true. DL's upgrade window has slowly narrowed over the past couple years for the simple f
111 PSU.DTW.SCE : DL sells a decent number of F seats, dependent on the route. The "First class monitization" has been an initiative over the past couple of years to in
112 FlyASAGuy2005 : I was trying to non-rev RDU-ATL one time and the flights were completely full and I HAD to be in Atlanta by a certain time to catch a connecting flig
113 xdlx : NO ONE BUYS F06 STRAIGHT UP...... THE F confirmed in DOM because of a C06 fare international, does not count. THE AMEX POINTS REDEMPTION DO NOT COUNT
114 nws2002 : Many companies allow executives of a certain level to travel in F. There are also passengers who will move between private jet charter and commercial
115 xdlx : Is it a myth..... I worked as a gate agent and have seen paper and now paperless manifest of F/C PAX. As a matter of fact Boarding a MCO-ATL 7AM depa
116 FlyASAGuy2005 : Okay...
117 mayor : Well, if you go by availability on TravelNet, SOMEBODY is booking seats in F.
118 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : I think what the poster is saying that much of the seats that are taken prior to departure are by points, AMEX redemption, etc. That's all fine but I
119 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : How about ATL-DCA? ATL-LGA? ATL-ORD? You pick a Florida route where, i'd bet, 80% of the flights are filled with people going on vacation(with a good
120 mayor : I guess what I meant was that if they were booking F, they must be buying tickets up there, too, no?
121 DeltaL1011man : one would think so. Unless, of course, Delta allows upgrades months a head. I bet anything if you check most major routes out of ATL you will find F
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