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HA To Canada?  
User currently offlineKLAXAirport From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 154 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

Would HA ever consider Canada? I'm sure HA could compete with WJ on a YVR-HNL route. What do you guys think?

Cheers,
KLAXAirport   

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5158 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6638 times:

A lot of American carriers have tried to compete against, AC, CP and WS on the Hawaii - Canada routes. They never seem to last long. Western Airlines seemed to last the longest, many years ago.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinenorthstardc4m From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3075 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6601 times:
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AC, WS both fly the route scheduled.
"charter" operators from Canada have shown up from time to time as well.
Western held on for many years, the route was shut down in the early 80s.

Non-US, Non-CDN carriers have flown the route over the years as well, QANTAS and Air Pacific spring to mind.

HA might be able to make a go of it, but there are probably better uses of their limited fleet.

Its just not a high yielding route. Fewer and fewer Canadians are going to the US for vacations these days.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5603 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6483 times:

I think AQ was the most recent U.S.-carrier attempt at YVR-HNL and I believe their experiment lasted a couple of years somewhere around the 2004-7 time frame.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 2):
HA might be able to make a go of it, but there are probably better uses of their limited fleet.

   I would actually expect AS might be more likely to give YVR-HI a try than HA.

bb


User currently offlineBA777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 674 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6427 times:

I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??



I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7968 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6347 times:

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 2):
HA might be able to make a go of it, but there are probably better uses of their limited fleet.

IMO I see YVR and YYZ being profitable routs for HA. But you're right, not until they get more planes.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6311 times:

Because the Hawaiian Islands are commonly understood to be where East meets West YVR might work with Vancouver's significant Asian population. HA would have to be concerned YVR-Hawaii may bastardize their SEA and potentially their PDX service.

On the cruise side SEA has surpassed YVR as the embarkation point for Alaska cruises across the last five or so years.

It would be neat to see HA compete with AS on the BLI-HNL route. The Alaska Marine Highway (AMHS) state ferry main terminal is located in Bellingham. AMHS voyages are becoming more and more popular with Asian tourism because they allow passengers to disembark and spend as much time in a port and thereafter connect to the next ferry which sails through. A cruise ship is on a dedicated schedule and will spend 8-12 hours in a port. Additionally the ferries will always stop or slow down for whales and other marine critters; 30-60 minutes is not uncommon. A cruise ship is on a dedicated schedule.

[Edited 2012-07-20 12:05:58]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineKLAXAirport From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):

Toronto has the Carribean just 3+ Hrs away. Although I know people in Toronto that want to visit Hawaii it doesnt seem like it would be a popular and profitable market.

Cheers,
KLAXAirport   


User currently offlinedrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 688 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Lots of competition. You can't just consider service into YVR. There's also Bellingham serving the BC market and Allegiant and Alaska are hashing it out there. So four carriers already in the market....

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5744 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??

CP used to fly this route as a SYD-HNL-YYZ flight on DC-10-30's then 763's, most of the tickets we sold on CP out of Hawaii were for European connections, I don't expect there is enough O/D to support a daily A330 to YYZ on either side, if there were, I'd expect AC would be flying YYZ-HNL n/s by now.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2684 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

I doubt it will happen.

In fact, i doubt HA will keep their service to JFK for long, let alone start the likes of YYZ or MIA (as has been discussed on another thread). The length of the sector involved is a major drawback and would need a healthy premium demand to make it work.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
I'd expect AC would be flying YYZ-HNL n/s by now.

Exaclty, and the fact that they aren't is proof enough that there is better use out there for their 763s or A333s.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-07-21 06:13:15]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5221 times:

If they price airfares to Canada similar to US pricing, they will fill their planes with no issue.

Why wouldn't they be able to fill their planes out of YYC or YEG in the middle of the winter?

But ultimately, it will come down to price. Time and again, Canadian travelers have to pay way more for travel than pax in the US.

They could easily do 3X to YEG and 4X to YYC all winter long. With HA offering onward connections to many parts of Asia, how about a stop over fare in HNL.

There's no reason why HA could not build a huge hub and capitalize on a stop over strategy - which would attract a lot of pax.


User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 7):
Toronto has the Carribean just 3+ Hrs away.

That's true, but Hawaii and Caribbean are not the equivalent destinations.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 11):
Why wouldn't they be able to fill their planes out of YYC or YEG in the middle of the winter?

They might be able to, but they would be competing against AC and WS. Maybe if HA did 3 or 4 flights a week during the winter season they would do just fine. I also think it has something to do with all the taxes and fees we have in Canada that makes HA less likely to fly here.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6535 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route

Do any of these different folks have any connection to the airline industry that would make their comments credible?


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):

I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??
Quoting ] Hawaii and Caribbean are not the equivalent destinations.[/quote]

[quote=bobnwa
(Reply 14):


Do any of these different folks have any connection to the airline industry that would make their comments credible?

I know that if AC can't make a go of it then I doubt if WS could. AC inherited the route to HNL from YYZ did not make money for them or they would have kept the route up. WS do not have the equipment that could make the10 hour westbound flight. That is one reason that AC didn't make money on that route. With BUF being so close to YYZ and about 30% less expensive, I would think that both WS and AC would pass on this run.

As has been discussed on this site as well, HNL is not a premium destination but more of a "cheapest flight or award miles" type of destination.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4369 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 4):
I keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route.

Now to me, that would be great as there's currently no direct routing between Toronto and Hawaii. But I somehow doubt they can fill an A330 on the route? Maybe seasonal??

CP used to fly this route as a SYD-HNL-YYZ flight on DC-10-30's then 763's, most of the tickets we sold on CP out of Hawaii were for European connections, I don't expect there is enough O/D to support a daily A330 to YYZ on either side, if there were, I'd expect AC would be flying YYZ-HNL n/s by now.

CP operated YYZ-HNL nonstops off and on starting with DC-8s in the mid-1960s. It was never profitable even when HNL was a stop en route to/from SYD. The O&D YYZ-Hawaii market is just too small. Few people want to sit on an aircraft for 9 hours to get to a beach when Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean are 3 hours away.

QF also briefly operated SYD-HNL-YYZ with 5th freedom rights HNL-YYZ sometime in the late 1990s or thereabouts using 763s a couple of times a week. It only lasted a few months.

And as far as YVR is concerned, 4 U.S. carriers (Western, Continental, Aloha and American Samoa-based South Pacific Island Airways that operated 707s YVR-HNL for a couple of years in the 1980s until they went bust). None lasted very long.

QF, NZ and FJ have also operated YVR-HNL 5th freedom service in the past.


User currently offlineyvphx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

Would it even be possible for a 763 or 332 to fly from BLI-HNL? BLI's runway is 6700 feet. I think the folks in and around bellingham would love to have another Hawaiian carrier for competition of prices and times. Seems like a viable option provided the aircraft could land/t.o. on that short of a runway!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting yvphx (Reply 17):
Would it even be possible for a 763 or 332 to fly from BLI-HNL?

Boeing's aircraft performance charts indicate that a 763 with a full passenger and baggage load (but no cargo) has a range of close to 4,000 nm from a 6,700 ft. runway at sea level (BLI is only 170 ft. above sea level). BLI-HNL is only 2,360 nm.


User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 14):
keep hearing rumors from different folks about Hawaiian doing an HNL-YYZ route

Highly unlikely. HA still has bigger fish to fry in the Pacific and the U.S.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 13):
They might be able to, but they would be competing against AC and WS. Maybe if HA did 3 or 4 flights a week during the winter season they would do just fine. I also think it has something to do with all the taxes and fees we have in Canada that makes HA less likely to fly here.

I don't think Canada's taxes are way more complicated that those of New Zealand or Japan, etc.....


User currently offlineBA777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 674 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 14):
Do any of these different folks have any connection to the airline industry that would make their comments credible?

Indeed they do... Both work in the industry with one having connections with the GTAA (operator of YYZ).

I'm not talking about daily or even all year service, but maybe winter, a few times a week.



I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

"Indeed they do... Both work in the industry with one having connections with the GTAA (operator of YYZ)."

Sorry but having connections to the GTAA doesn't mean it's going happen. Your connection may have access to the GTAAs wish list but that's about it. The Calgary airport authority also thinks the A380 will magically arrive when the runaway is longer to.......


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 21):
Indeed they do... Both work in the industry with one having connections with the GTAA (operator of YYZ).

Yeah, well that has as much credibility as a pilot for an airline knowing the future plans of the airline.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5130 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
The O&D YYZ-Hawaii market is just too small. Few people want to sit on an aircraft for 9 hours to get to a beach when Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean are 3 hours away.

= Exactly ... and I would add that very few people are willing to pay a premium to go nonstop from YYZ when there are so many 1-stop connections via Canada and the U.S.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
25 RWA380 : A "stopover" program has been offered many times by airlines involving Hawaii, WA used to offer a $99.00 HNL stopover charge travelling between LAX a
26 c172akula : Where has the CAA actually said this? The closest you get is any of the information about the parallel runway and new terminal being able to handle t
27 whiteguy : Sure maybe it is the media spinning it more the the CAA but they do a good job of bringing it up in every interview I've seen. The current terminal an
28 Post contains images c172akula : The CAA should just say the new runway can handle the A225.
29 yegbey01 : That would be a stop over en route to/from Asia. Not to Alaska!!
30 rjm717 : Let's discuss this in 12 months time... (I think you're wrong) R
31 kgaiflyer : Since AS already has a station at YVR; already operates to Hawaii from at least seven Pacific cities, and already has name recognition in Vancouver,
32 Jayce : As far as the YVR-Hawaii market, I think AS is focusing on service to and from BLI. Too much competition from AC and WS from YVR, both of which have
33 SurfandSnow : Of course they would! I would think they have carefully examined each and every country (within range of their aircraft) whose citizens can easily en
34 RWA380 : I get that, for what ever reason HA has stated that they are more looking at O/D to be their primary business, and connections are not what they are
35 c172akula : WS is leasing two Thomas Cook 757's for Hawaii again this year, pending approval flights will start on December 13th, and run until April 21. YYC-HNL
36 YYCspotter : Because in the winter, WS wet leases one or 2 752s for the YEG/YYC-HNL route.
37 yycspotter : If it can handle the AN225, It can handle the A380. the current one already can! In fact, it came for a visit a few months ago!
38 Viscount724 : I'm sure the runway can, but the An-225 wouldn't be parking at a terminal gate. That's where changes are often needed to handle the A380.
39 yycspotter : just clarifying on the runway part-- it is the longest in canada after all!
40 c172akula : I was well aware of that, I was there to watch the arrival and departure. Just saying that if the CAA is so keen on saying the new runway can handle
41 Post contains links connies4ever : Longer than the former CFB Namao ? (closed some time ago, of course). I believe the main runway was almost 14,000 ft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CF
42 yycspotter : it was a longer, but it is no longer in operation. however, the new runway will be 14000 feet, longer than namao.
43 Post contains links Viscount724 : Wasn't Namao's longest runway 14,000 feet, the same as the new YYC runway? I seem to recall the 14,000 number. There weren't many longer runways anyw
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