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737max Windows - Any Update?  
User currently offlinecaptainstefan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 416 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8211 times:

I did some digging around the forum database and couldn't find anything conclusive regarding this subject -

1. Why didn't Boeing use the 777/764 style windows on the 737NGs?
2. Will the 737max series feature the new window shape?

Since the 737NGs entered service about 3 years after the 777 did how come Boeing did not choose to put the new windows in the NG, like they did with the 767-400ER (with respect to the -300)?


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14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3320 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

larger windows = more wieght. You have to have a much stronger structure around the widow to deal with the weakness the hole creates. Then you have the wieght of the window itself.

The 787 got bigger windows as it was nearly free with the skin thickness required for impact damage being much greater than required for simple pressurization loads, making holes requires less extra reinforcement.

The 748i got 777 windows as a way to save money, but I think if Boeing knew the engineering costs they might have even skipped this, as this was part of the cost over-run issue.

While I don't know about the 764, I'd assume its the same as the 748i, where it was done to save money by using more modern and cheaper window assemblies.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7929 times:

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):
2. Will the 737max series feature the new window shape?

The MAX is a minimum change airplane. Unless it significantly improved customer satisfaction, changes aren't being made. There are new window reveals and sidewalls on the 737NG Sky Interior. On the MAX they are avoiding mission creep like they allowed on the 747-8, which did end up with new cabin windows.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7916 times:

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):
1. Why didn't Boeing use the 777/764 style windows on the 737NGs?

Minimum change dervative, hypersensitive to weight. I don't think there's any way new windows on a 737NG could close the business case.

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):
2. Will the 737max series feature the new window shape?

I hope not; as a passenger it would be nice but as an engineer that's a supply chain risk that just doesn't need to be baked into the MAX (Boeing doesn't build the 737 fuselage anymore). Plus, changing the window belt would certainly require more structural testing than not.

Tom.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7668 times:

When the MAX comes out, is there any way that the current windows can be configured to dim like the 787 windows do? That would be awesome to see!

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 2):
There are new window reveals and sidewalls on the 737NG Sky Interior.

Just so that I understand you correctly, the windows themselves are the exact same shape as the older models, the sidewall panels inside the airplane make it look like that the windows are round, when in fact, it is not. I got the opportunity to see one of our newer airplanes at UA with the SkyInterior and was surprised by the new sidewall look. Pretty nice, if you ask me!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7386 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
When the MAX comes out, is there any way that the current windows can be configured to dim like the 787 windows do? That would be awesome to see!

It would be possible but such design changes cost too much money in an existing design. The interior is going to be virtually the same as the sky interior.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7091 times:
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It's not the windows many of us would like to see changed. It's the Windscreens. But nothing to be done there. Those tiny cockpit windows and windshields will be around for another 20 years. You could never justify giving the 737Max a new windshield.


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2579 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 6):
It's not the windows many of us would like to see changed. It's the Windscreens. But nothing to be done there. Those tiny cockpit windows and windshields will be around for another 20 years. You could never justify giving the 737Max a new windshield.

Over the years many here have suggested putting a 757'767 section 41 on the 737. This is obviously far too expensive an undertaking to even consider, but an interesting idea nonetheless.



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User currently offlinecaptainstefan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4807 times:

Thanks everyone - that makes sense. I now wonder what there was to be gained by changing the window style on the 767-400?

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 6):

It's not the windows many of us would like to see changed. It's the Windscreens. But nothing to be done there. Those tiny cockpit windows and windshields will be around for another 20 years. You could never justify giving the 737Max a new windshield.

One interesting thing I noticed is that it *appears* that Delta has painted over/otherwise removed the eyebrow windows on the 737s. I couldn't understand why, they're incredibly useful in most >10 degree turns. Maybe to accommodate the installation of the HUD?



Long Live the Tulip!
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4644 times:

Lots available in a search for eyebrow windows. They were removed as cost saving for maintenance etc as TCAs and other navigational aids etc has rendered them obsolete. I dont think they were "painted over", they would have been replaced with permanent plugs.

User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Correct, plugs are installed on retrofit A/C, while on new builds its part of the fuselage structure.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8090 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 8):
One interesting thing I noticed is that it *appears* that Delta has painted over/otherwise removed the eyebrow windows on the 737s. I couldn't understand why, they're incredibly useful in most >10 degree turns. Maybe to accommodate the installation of the HUD?

By removing the windows you save weight. Also, with advances in TCAS, for example, the need to see in banked turns is (theoretically) greatly diminished, thus the window is no longer useful. Also, how many MD80/737 eyebrows do you see with safety cards jammed in them? The sun comes through right into crew's eyes more often than not.



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
Quoting captainstefan (Reply 8):
One interesting thing I noticed is that it *appears* that Delta has painted over/otherwise removed the eyebrow windows on the 737s. I couldn't understand why, they're incredibly useful in most >10 degree turns. Maybe to accommodate the installation of the HUD?

By removing the windows you save weight. Also, with advances in TCAS, for example, the need to see in banked turns is (theoretically) greatly diminished, thus the window is no longer useful. Also, how many MD80/737 eyebrows do you see with safety cards jammed in them? The sun comes through right into crew's eyes more often than not.

2005 Boeing photo of the first 737NG built without eyebrow windows and comments re the weight and maintenance savings involved. They were also eliminated on the 717.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...05/photorelease/q1/pr_050126h.html


User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2495 times:
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When I first saw the new interior, with the reshaped reveals, I did wonder if it was a step to introducing 777/764/748 windows on future 737 derivatives. But like most, concluded there would be no cost justification, even if the newer windows themselves were cheaper/lighter.


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlinepilotanthony From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting captainstefan (Thread starter):

Because the 737NG is still a 737 why would you change much of an already FANTASTIC plane, cheap to operate why would you change that! make sense well done Boeing



Anthony Paraschou
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