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ANA Reportedly Grounds 5 787s Re: RR Engine Parts  
User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13739 posts, RR: 19
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30815 times:

All Nippon Airways has reportedly grounded 5 Boeing 787s due to faulty Rolls Royce Trent 1000 engine parts.

Two flights ex-HND had to be cancelled yesterday.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20120722_07.html


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30738 times:

Bad news for RR  

And also somewhat of a setback for NH. Which flights were cancelled?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21505 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30654 times:

Last thing boeing wants is a repeat of the A380 RR failure.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30591 times:

Problem identified. Problem being fixed. Sounds like faulty parts not a faulty design. I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30510 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 4):
Problem identified. Problem being fixed. Sounds like faulty parts not a faulty design. I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.

That is true. We haven't seen anything drastic and good thing for NH getting it taken care of when they discovered the issue.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2881 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30511 times:

Welcome to "teething issues" of a new aircraft type. It's going to happen. Good catch by the crews involved, and I'm sure it will be rectified soon through incorporation of various service bulletins on the engines and/or components. Best wishes to NH on a quick operational recovery from this matter.

5 out of the, what, 11 that they have? I wonder if these are early-built ones or whatnot and what the actual component is which is experiencing the corrosion issue mentioned. Also wondering if JL is experiencing this with any of their aircraft.



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30507 times:
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Sounds like a precautionary move on NH's part and not a sign of any imminent flight safety risk with the Trent 1000s.

User currently onlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 30462 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 6):
Also wondering if JL is experiencing this with any of their aircraft.

Considering JL has GE's on their planes , I would guess not.


User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2881 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 29881 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 8):
Considering JL has GE's on their planes , I would guess not.

UGH....completely forgot that, thanks phxa340.   



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 28798 times:

Explanation of the issue:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...pon-787-flights-on-temporary-hold/

Just a part of developing new technology. Annoying? ... definitely. Poor design? ... no way. Durability testing did it's job here.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 28691 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):

Sounds like a precautionary move on NH's part and not a sign of any imminent flight safety risk with the Trent 1000s.

In particular with the explanation:

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 15):

Explanation of the issue:

Thank you:

"A specific gear showed corrosion due to an issue in the surface treatment at the time of production, which led to damage to the gear box. Certain 787 engines within the ANA fleet have gears produced using the same process, that may possibly lead to corrosion."

So pulled due to a poorly manufactured gear. Sadly this happens.
The Japanese are the most likely customers to catch this. Pratt had to improve their Thermal Barrier coating process and JAL would not accept yellowed parts (a normal color for the coating, but it could be bleach white). Pratt starting bin selecting parts for JAL and eventually figured out how to have an always white part. (Note: I'm not sure if the fix went into production.) The Japanese airlines want to find inconsistency to resolve issues before they happen. That is great, unless it becomes public.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 15):
Poor design?

   Poor manufacturing quality control. Good catch. Some QA agent earned their pay.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 28044 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
Poor manufacturing quality control. Good catch. Some QA agent earned their pay.

This seems to be a growing problem with RR. Wasn't poor manufacturing quality control the reason for QF 32?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 27947 times:

Quoting poLOT (Reply 16):
This seems to be a growing problem with RR. Wasn't poor manufacturing quality control the reason for QF 32?

I'll bet you if there was a serious incident with an NH flight with the 787 on the level of the QF flight, I'm sure the FAA or IATA would be slamming the books down on Rolls Royce. Maybe they should now given this.

But at the same time, all of the other Trent models seem to be doing well, no?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 27840 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
I'll bet you if there was a serious incident with an NH flight with the 787 on the level of the QF flight, I'm sure the FAA or IATA would be slamming the books down on Rolls Royce. Maybe they should now given this.

I don't really think this is worth any slamming of books down on RR. Note that I am not suggesting that RR are unsafe or anything, and I am sure that GE and PW also have their issues as well.

By the way, what caused the the Trent 1000 to blow up on the test stand a few years back? I can't find anything about it other than the initial news reports.


User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2105 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 26992 times:

787 and RR make great headliners, way, way, way beyond they really need to. Quiet news day in Japan me thinks.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 26818 times:

Quoting poLOT (Reply 13):
I don't really think this is worth any slamming of books down on RR. Note that I am not suggesting that RR are unsafe or anything,

Well if it becomes a repeated problem, you'd think that people would be raising eyebrows. Systematic engine failures are not to be messing with. I recall that PW engine failure on an MD80 which killed people from flying engine parts piercing the fuselage. We don't need that, or another QF32 to happen, which is why I commend NH for doing this.

Quoting col (Reply 14):
Quiet news day in Japan me thinks.

indeed:
"Porn star draws crowds of crazed chinese men"
http://www.japantoday.com/category/e...ed-chinese-men-like-few-others-can



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 25748 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
or IATA would be slamming the books down on Rolls Royce

What's IATA got to do with anything?  


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 25673 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 16):
What's IATA got to do with anything?

Or someone in international regulations. I'm none too familiar with that stuff (and I should be)



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 24641 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
IATA

I'm pretty sure you mean EASA?

In this case, the problem was detected and reported by RR without an incident. That's how the system is intended to work when bad parts make it into flying airplanes. The defective part was made by a sub-supplier to Hamilton-Sundstrand, who makes the Trent 1000 gearbox for RR. That part supplier changed a manufacturing process without properly informing RR. I doubt the regulators are going to take too dim a view of RR's handling of this.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 20702 times:
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Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
Last thing Boeing wants is a repeat of the A380 RR failure

I would say first and foremost ANA and RR would be the parties for which the last thing they want is a repeat of the incident on the Trent-900 engine on the QF A380.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):
I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.

I completely agree with this.

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 5):
Welcome to "teething issues" of a new aircraft type. It's going to happen.

It does, and luckily safety protocols keep flying and people safe.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 9):
Explanation of the issue:

Thank you very much for posting this. Good that RR discovered the issue themselves and informed all involved appropriately.  .


User currently offlinePs76 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 20 hours ago) and read 20370 times:

Hi!

It is interesting. Thanks for the explanation link AngMoh. I wonder how it works regarding lost revenue from cancelled flights. I expect ANA has enough aircraft to still keep most of their booking commitments with other aircraft. But what happens if there are a significant number of cancelled flights and people that need to be flown back home etc. Does ANA pick up the tab? Do they make Rolls Royce pay or is it like when you buy a car and you've made the decision and bought the item so now you are resposible on your own. Do airliner engines even come with a guarantee and three years free servicing or anything. Or is the cost of cancellation and flying back stranded passengers covered by some insurance that ANA purchases against such events?

Anyway sorry if I'm a little off topic.

Many thanks.

Pierre


User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 19 hours ago) and read 19264 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Poor manufacturing quality control. Good catch. Some QA agent earned their pay.

And perhaps another one needs to be shown the door...



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 15525 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
"A specific gear showed corrosion due to an issue in the surface treatment at the time of production, which led to damage to the gear box. Certain 787 engines within the ANA fleet have gears produced using the same process, that may possibly lead to corrosion."

So pulled due to a poorly manufactured gear.

No, it wasn't a problem with the gear itself, the problem is with whatever the gear was coated with to prevent corrosion of the gear.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Poor manufacturing quality control.

On the part of RR, yes.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
The Japanese are the most likely customers to catch this.

Actually, NH did not find this problem, RR did, who reported it directly to Boeing, who then informed NH.

Quoting CM (Reply 18):
the problem was detected and reported by RR without an incident.

I don't know if it is "without an incident". RR has had a lot of trouble developing the Trent-1000, and it is already into its 3rd PIP, the package-2 engines is the latest version. Don't forget that RR had a Trent-1000 explode on the test stand a few years ago, making the (then) B-787 developement program even later than it should have been. That engine incident probibly is responseable for about 1 year of the B-787's 3 year delay. Although the cause of the engine explosion is probibly unrelated (directly) to this gear corrosion problem.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 15184 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
I don't know if it is "without an incident".

An "incident" is an ICAO Annex 13 defined term: http://www.iprr.org/manuals/Annex13.html#defs

Quote:
"Incident: An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which a person is fatally or seriously injured, the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure or the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible."

No incident has occurred.

[Edited 2012-07-23 09:19:29]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 14964 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):

Problem identified. Problem being fixed. Sounds like faulty parts not a faulty design. I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.

Having to ground half of your fleet is more than a "small bump." Admittedly, on the grand scale of things, this is also not a huge bump (a-la A380 uncontained engine failure).

It appears as if the replacement parts are readily available and will be installed very soon.

I wonder what wrinkles will appear with the GEnX?


25 tdscanuck : None of the flight test planes stopped flying over that issue, no production planes were held up over that issue...how do you ascribe 1 year of delay
26 PW100 : These gears generally do not have corrosion resistant coatings. The gear's corrosion resistance comes from highly controlled alloy compositions, surf
27 DocLightning : Indeed. This is an embarrassment for RR more than it is a safety problem for anyone. What I wonder is how this didn't show up in all the hours of eng
28 WarpSpeed : There was a subsequent change in the production process at Hamilton Sundstrand. Once the issue was identified, the process was corrected.
29 Post contains links PW100 : I'm not familiar with the characteristics of that failure, so really I have no idea. I don't think that data is in the public domain. It was previous
30 tdscanuck : Manufacturing defects are usually found by process audits, not by in-service failure. As soon as the supplier picks up the issue they issue a Notice
31 BoeingVista : This was operator error, the engine was being operated outside of its design parameters.
32 abba : Do you believe that Boeing took a year off from the 787 program when RR had an engine problem? There are other suppliers of engines for the 787.... T
33 strfyr51 : all of this is precautionary work , with a new design this is pretty normal, Rolls CAN'T lat what happened to the A380 Trent Engines happen to the 787
34 Post contains images lightsaber : Sadly yes. I could have flared that joint better than what was delivered. To say the least, I'm *not* allowed to flare production joints... This wasn
35 PHX787 : Yeah really good catch for them and it's a good thing that it didn't escalate
36 kanban : When the customer has bought RR, that's what the plane is built for.. yes it is possible to convert.. well at least that was in the original plan.. a
37 Post contains images lightsaber : Uh Oh... a United Technologies company. I told you a vendor was at fault. Ok, I'm HIGHLY amused how much kit RR buys from Hamilton Sundstrand. I was
38 abba : Sure. However, Boeing did not need to take a sabbatical year even if RR didn't have the Trent redy ón time. At least they could have produced the fr
39 Post contains images AirbusA6 : UTC shares have falled as well, seeing that the fault was with the gearbox made by their subsidiary. Interesting, the GEnx is unaffected as its gearbo
40 Post contains images PM : Can you offer even a shred of evidence to support this ridiculous statement? While I'm here I might remind those with short memories that in the late
41 par13del : I guess the testing done on and off the wings are in a more controlled environment, no one is claiming that no testing was done so........... Unfortu
42 jumpjets : I suspect that RRs response to the issue will be as important a factor as the issue itself. They 'shilly shallied' [to use my 90yr old father's expres
43 par13del : Hopefully, folks here still seem to remember the issues with the original GE-90 and the PW's but that's for another thread.
44 kanban : If the engines are not available, and the customer doesn't want to pick up the cost of switching (remember the customer buys the engines not Boeing)
45 tdscanuck : The engine issue was sorted out *before* the engine let go on the test stand. As others noted, it was a procedural error. If you run an engine outsid
46 PresRDC : This will not be a major driver for UTC's stock price. The whole market was down yesterday and UTC also announced the sale of its Pratt & Whitney
47 Post contains links and images ferpe : There is some additional info on the incident, with that at hand (and if it is correct) I am surprised that fault was handled the way it was. Here fro
48 tdscanuck : The inboard ("up") end of the crown gears is in very close proximity to the engine mainline bearings; those are *hyper* sensitive to oil contaminatio
49 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks, makes sense. I just so happens I have a picture of the T900 oil systems as well (how could that be, was there some trouble in this section? A
50 Post contains links trex8 : It actually delayed the program by a quarter. http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
51 kanban : are there any chip detectors or filters in this system that would alert maintenance that erosion was going on?..
52 Post contains images kl911 : Yes, but thats just us A.nutters. Most tourists are most likely not even aware.
53 ferpe : Sure there are, you can see one of the filters denoted as "pressure filter" in the schematic. Someone can fill in more, but tracking the state of the
54 tdscanuck : Yes, oil monitoring is a big deal for any jet engine. There are multiple sumps, each with their own drains and filters and chip detectors. The mainte
55 PW100 : I would be significantly surprised if the sump design allowed metal debris from the crown gears getting to the main bearings. You are absolutely righ
56 ferpe : I do appreciate all your information, I wonder however if corrosion of an etched surface leads to deep pitting. To me it sound like a missing corrosi
57 PW100 : Dito! And nice to read positive feedback! Well, I'm not familiar with these gears, so I don't really know all the design details and pressure loads o
58 tdscanuck : But gears are heavy; you don't want to take the stress down any lower than you absolutely have to or else the gearset weight is too high. I would bet
59 abba : Yes that might well have contributed some. However, if the plane was on time and only one of the two engine options were late (the RR) then I am sure
60 kanban : There is no LeapX that fits this program. When a customer selects an engine type, that's it!...no changes. I seem to recall GE was having some late ce
61 abba : Well I think that you have been reading far too much into the rather simple point I were making.
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