phxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 28518 times:
Problem identified. Problem being fixed. Sounds like faulty parts not a faulty design. I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4985 posts, RR: 14 Reply 4, posted (10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 28437 times:
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 4): Problem identified. Problem being fixed. Sounds like faulty parts not a faulty design. I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.
That is true. We haven't seen anything drastic and good thing for NH getting it taken care of when they discovered the issue.
B6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2767 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 28438 times:
Welcome to "teething issues" of a new aircraft type. It's going to happen. Good catch by the crews involved, and I'm sure it will be rectified soon through incorporation of various service bulletins on the engines and/or components. Best wishes to NH on a quick operational recovery from this matter.
5 out of the, what, 11 that they have? I wonder if these are early-built ones or whatnot and what the actual component is which is experiencing the corrosion issue mentioned. Also wondering if JL is experiencing this with any of their aircraft.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
"A specific gear showed corrosion due to an issue in the surface treatment at the time of production, which led to damage to the gear box. Certain 787 engines within the ANA fleet have gears produced using the same process, that may possibly lead to corrosion."
So pulled due to a poorly manufactured gear. Sadly this happens.
The Japanese are the most likely customers to catch this. Pratt had to improve their Thermal Barrier coating process and JAL would not accept yellowed parts (a normal color for the coating, but it could be bleach white). Pratt starting bin selecting parts for JAL and eventually figured out how to have an always white part. (Note: I'm not sure if the fix went into production.) The Japanese airlines want to find inconsistency to resolve issues before they happen. That is great, unless it becomes public.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4985 posts, RR: 14 Reply 12, posted (10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 25874 times:
Quoting poLOT (Reply 16): This seems to be a growing problem with RR. Wasn't poor manufacturing quality control the reason for QF 32?
I'll bet you if there was a serious incident with an NH flight with the 787 on the level of the QF flight, I'm sure the FAA or IATA would be slamming the books down on Rolls Royce. Maybe they should now given this.
But at the same time, all of the other Trent models seem to be doing well, no?
poLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1502 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 25767 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17): I'll bet you if there was a serious incident with an NH flight with the 787 on the level of the QF flight, I'm sure the FAA or IATA would be slamming the books down on Rolls Royce. Maybe they should now given this.
I don't really think this is worth any slamming of books down on RR. Note that I am not suggesting that RR are unsafe or anything, and I am sure that GE and PW also have their issues as well.
By the way, what caused the the Trent 1000 to blow up on the test stand a few years back? I can't find anything about it other than the initial news reports.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4985 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 24745 times:
Quoting poLOT (Reply 13): I don't really think this is worth any slamming of books down on RR. Note that I am not suggesting that RR are unsafe or anything,
Well if it becomes a repeated problem, you'd think that people would be raising eyebrows. Systematic engine failures are not to be messing with. I recall that PW engine failure on an MD80 which killed people from flying engine parts piercing the fuselage. We don't need that, or another QF32 to happen, which is why I commend NH for doing this.
Quoting col (Reply 14): Quiet news day in Japan me thinks.
In this case, the problem was detected and reported by RR without an incident. That's how the system is intended to work when bad parts make it into flying airplanes. The defective part was made by a sub-supplier to Hamilton-Sundstrand, who makes the Trent 1000 gearbox for RR. That part supplier changed a manufacturing process without properly informing RR. I doubt the regulators are going to take too dim a view of RR's handling of this.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 3594 posts, RR: 36 Reply 19, posted (10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18629 times:
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2): Last thing Boeing wants is a repeat of the A380 RR failure
I would say first and foremost ANA and RR would be the parties for which the last thing they want is a repeat of the incident on the Trent-900 engine on the QF A380.
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3): I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.
I completely agree with this.
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 5): Welcome to "teething issues" of a new aircraft type. It's going to happen.
It does, and luckily safety protocols keep flying and people safe.
Ps76 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18297 times:
Hi!
It is interesting. Thanks for the explanation link AngMoh. I wonder how it works regarding lost revenue from cancelled flights. I expect ANA has enough aircraft to still keep most of their booking commitments with other aircraft. But what happens if there are a significant number of cancelled flights and people that need to be flown back home etc. Does ANA pick up the tab? Do they make Rolls Royce pay or is it like when you buy a car and you've made the decision and bought the item so now you are resposible on your own. Do airliner engines even come with a guarantee and three years free servicing or anything. Or is the cost of cancellation and flying back stranded passengers covered by some insurance that ANA purchases against such events?
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11714 posts, RR: 52 Reply 22, posted (10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13452 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): "A specific gear showed corrosion due to an issue in the surface treatment at the time of production, which led to damage to the gear box. Certain 787 engines within the ANA fleet have gears produced using the same process, that may possibly lead to corrosion."
So pulled due to a poorly manufactured gear.
No, it wasn't a problem with the gear itself, the problem is with whatever the gear was coated with to prevent corrosion of the gear.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): The Japanese are the most likely customers to catch this.
Actually, NH did not find this problem, RR did, who reported it directly to Boeing, who then informed NH.
Quoting CM (Reply 18): the problem was detected and reported by RR without an incident.
I don't know if it is "without an incident". RR has had a lot of trouble developing the Trent-1000, and it is already into its 3rd PIP, the package-2 engines is the latest version. Don't forget that RR had a Trent-1000 explode on the test stand a few years ago, making the (then) B-787 developement program even later than it should have been. That engine incident probibly is responseable for about 1 year of the B-787's 3 year delay. Although the cause of the engine explosion is probibly unrelated (directly) to this gear corrosion problem.
Quote: "Incident: An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which a person is fatally or seriously injured, the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure or the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible."
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16831 posts, RR: 57 Reply 24, posted (10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12891 times:
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):
Problem identified. Problem being fixed. Sounds like faulty parts not a faulty design. I don't really see this a setback , just another small bump in the road to what has been a pretty good EIS so far.
Having to ground half of your fleet is more than a "small bump." Admittedly, on the grand scale of things, this is also not a huge bump (a-la A380 uncontained engine failure).
It appears as if the replacement parts are readily available and will be installed very soon.
I wonder what wrinkles will appear with the GEnX?
25 tdscanuck: None of the flight test planes stopped flying over that issue, no production planes were held up over that issue...how do you ascribe 1 year of delay
26 PW100: These gears generally do not have corrosion resistant coatings. The gear's corrosion resistance comes from highly controlled alloy compositions, surf
27 DocLightning: Indeed. This is an embarrassment for RR more than it is a safety problem for anyone. What I wonder is how this didn't show up in all the hours of eng
28 WarpSpeed: There was a subsequent change in the production process at Hamilton Sundstrand. Once the issue was identified, the process was corrected.
29 PW100: I'm not familiar with the characteristics of that failure, so really I have no idea. I don't think that data is in the public domain. It was previous
30 tdscanuck: Manufacturing defects are usually found by process audits, not by in-service failure. As soon as the supplier picks up the issue they issue a Notice
31 BoeingVista: This was operator error, the engine was being operated outside of its design parameters.
32 abba: Do you believe that Boeing took a year off from the 787 program when RR had an engine problem? There are other suppliers of engines for the 787.... T
33 strfyr51: all of this is precautionary work , with a new design this is pretty normal, Rolls CAN'T lat what happened to the A380 Trent Engines happen to the 787
34 lightsaber: Sadly yes. I could have flared that joint better than what was delivered. To say the least, I'm *not* allowed to flare production joints... This wasn
35 PHX787: Yeah really good catch for them and it's a good thing that it didn't escalate
36 kanban: When the customer has bought RR, that's what the plane is built for.. yes it is possible to convert.. well at least that was in the original plan.. a
37 lightsaber: Uh Oh... a United Technologies company. I told you a vendor was at fault. Ok, I'm HIGHLY amused how much kit RR buys from Hamilton Sundstrand. I was
38 abba: Sure. However, Boeing did not need to take a sabbatical year even if RR didn't have the Trent redy ón time. At least they could have produced the fr
39 AirbusA6: UTC shares have falled as well, seeing that the fault was with the gearbox made by their subsidiary. Interesting, the GEnx is unaffected as its gearbo
40 PM: Can you offer even a shred of evidence to support this ridiculous statement? While I'm here I might remind those with short memories that in the late
41 par13del: I guess the testing done on and off the wings are in a more controlled environment, no one is claiming that no testing was done so........... Unfortu
42 jumpjets: I suspect that RRs response to the issue will be as important a factor as the issue itself. They 'shilly shallied' [to use my 90yr old father's expres
43 par13del: Hopefully, folks here still seem to remember the issues with the original GE-90 and the PW's but that's for another thread.
44 kanban: If the engines are not available, and the customer doesn't want to pick up the cost of switching (remember the customer buys the engines not Boeing)
45 tdscanuck: The engine issue was sorted out *before* the engine let go on the test stand. As others noted, it was a procedural error. If you run an engine outsid
46 PresRDC: This will not be a major driver for UTC's stock price. The whole market was down yesterday and UTC also announced the sale of its Pratt & Whitney
47 ferpe: There is some additional info on the incident, with that at hand (and if it is correct) I am surprised that fault was handled the way it was. Here fro
48 tdscanuck: The inboard ("up") end of the crown gears is in very close proximity to the engine mainline bearings; those are *hyper* sensitive to oil contaminatio
49 ferpe: Thanks, makes sense. I just so happens I have a picture of the T900 oil systems as well (how could that be, was there some trouble in this section? A
50 trex8: It actually delayed the program by a quarter. http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
51 kanban: are there any chip detectors or filters in this system that would alert maintenance that erosion was going on?..
52 kl911: Yes, but thats just us A.nutters. Most tourists are most likely not even aware.
53 ferpe: Sure there are, you can see one of the filters denoted as "pressure filter" in the schematic. Someone can fill in more, but tracking the state of the
54 tdscanuck: Yes, oil monitoring is a big deal for any jet engine. There are multiple sumps, each with their own drains and filters and chip detectors. The mainte
55 PW100: I would be significantly surprised if the sump design allowed metal debris from the crown gears getting to the main bearings. You are absolutely righ
56 ferpe: I do appreciate all your information, I wonder however if corrosion of an etched surface leads to deep pitting. To me it sound like a missing corrosi
57 PW100: Dito! And nice to read positive feedback! Well, I'm not familiar with these gears, so I don't really know all the design details and pressure loads o
58 tdscanuck: But gears are heavy; you don't want to take the stress down any lower than you absolutely have to or else the gearset weight is too high. I would bet
59 abba: Yes that might well have contributed some. However, if the plane was on time and only one of the two engine options were late (the RR) then I am sure
60 kanban: There is no LeapX that fits this program. When a customer selects an engine type, that's it!...no changes. I seem to recall GE was having some late ce
61 abba: Well I think that you have been reading far too much into the rather simple point I were making.
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Poor manufacturing quality control. Good catch. Some QA agent earned their pay. 
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