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Frontier Announces DEN-SBN  
User currently offlineJetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 402 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7837 times:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...stop-between-denver-140000586.html

To be flown with an Airbus!

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7813 times:

I think the biggest competitor here will be Allegiant. Considerng this is only 4x/week, I think they're going for the leisure crowd headed west. Also - notice that the aircraft is in South Bend almost 11 hours? I would think it'd turn back around at 6am, but it sits around until 10am. Is there a reason other then crew scheduling for this?

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7782 times:

Finally.... and congrats to both F9 and SBN.

I do believe this route was approved as part of the SCASD grant from last year. And with flying it four days a week right now, going into the slow or winter season, it's a good way to test the waters here.

So SBN actually gets an LCC here (not sure G4 really counts here since G4 is a "vacation" type airline) and will probably see some fare relief on flights going to DEN and westward. I'm thinking that a lot of this will be connects in DEN, since the DEN-SBN market is only about 30 PDEW. But maybe the low fares may push up some the PDEW.

So.... all the best.

 


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3768 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7709 times:

Quoting Jetskipper (Thread starter):
To be flown with an Airbus!

That part surprised me, as I was expecting an E-Jet of some sort. The 4x/week part also surprised me, as SBN was shooting for daily service in the SCASD application, but most small F9 cities are served less than daily.

Congratulations to both F9 and SBN. SBN has had a very good year in general... first G4 to PGD, then more DL ATL service, and now F9 to DEN.

And maybe this will be the catalyst that makes UA finally start FWA-DEN (which has been rumored for years).



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7617 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
I do believe this route was approved as part of the SCASD grant from last year. And with flying it four days a week right now, going into the slow or winter season, it's a good way to test the waters here.

What a concept, winning a grant and then using it to actually attract new service! To bad the clowns running TOL just seem to collect the grants and then never actually use them....


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7413 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 1):
Notice that the aircraft is in South Bend almost 11 hours? I would think it'd turn back around at 6am, but it sits around until 10am. Is there a reason other then crew scheduling for this?

Crew scheduling is the reason for this. The same crew that brings it in one night takes it back the next day, and this gives acceptable time for crew rest unless there's a serious inbound delay. Frontier sometimes does this at daily stations to avoid rotating crew overnights, but it's especially important at a less-than-daily station like this. If the plane left early out of SBN, a crew coming in at 11:33pm on Tuesday night would not fly out again until 6:45am on Friday. That's two full days of layover, including two extra nights of hotel rooms (three total) for each crew member. The other solution is to deadheaded crews in and out, but that means blocking off five seats on every flight for crew.

This is a big reason why often the low-frequency stations don't overnight aircraft. Much easier to come in during the day and turn right around.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3768 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7358 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 4):
What a concept, winning a grant and then using it to actually attract new service! To bad the clowns running TOL just seem to collect the grants and then never actually use them....

Funny you mentioned TOL.

They want to join the F9 route map as well with a SCASD grant that they got about the same time as SBN's. But as you said, they haven't had the best luck with SCASD grants (hello, JetAmerica). Yet sometimes, grants don't need to be used for new service: FWA got a SCASD grant for a CUTE system several years ago. If this latest TOL grant has to be returned like what happened with the one for NYC, they might want to think along those lines.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7327 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
was approved as part of the SCASD grant from last year.

Yes $750,000 in government cheese for a 2-year revenue guarantee program.

Of course $750,000 question is what happens when the funding period ends....



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7304 times:

Congratulations to F9 on another loser route. Once the subsidy ends they'll be outta there.

User currently offlinecaleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7217 times:
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I don't think this is a loser route at all. The University of Notre Dame is in South Bend along with other industries. Sports and academic related travel alone should help the route some. I wish them well. United had this route for years during the 70s and 80s using a 727. I was hoping UAL would resume this service with a regional jet, but it looks like F9 beat them to it with even better aircraft. Good luck Frontier!

User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3147 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
Congratulations to F9 on another loser route. Once the subsidy ends they'll be outta there.

If it's a loser route, yes, they should get outta there after the money ceases. I give credit to F9 for answering these ventures, when others aren't. Try something. If they lose nothing, fine, it's a reasonable experiment. If it doesn't catch on (Wichita), move on. I also give credit to the cities who try to lure service with grants. They have a choice to a) continue granting subsidies to the airline with renewed grants (or civic taxes or something), or b) attempt to stimulate local traffic such that a route can sustain itself. Either way, use it or lose it.

-Rampart


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7126 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 4):
What a concept, winning a grant and then using it to actually attract new service! To bad the clowns running TOL just seem to collect the grants and then never actually use them....

Yea, I think that we can agree that it's a pretty good grant, eh... if it's used?

Also, if I remember, TOL received a grant as well for F9 to start service to DEN, and I think that it was last year as well, at the same time as SBN.

Aren't SBN and TOL like about 100 or so miles from each other? If so, I would wonder if F9 would do both cities using both grants..... but we all could be surprised tomorrow when F9 announces TOL as a new station, eh?

And closing out I don't think that F9 is going to TOL (although I could be wrong, and personally would want to see F9 there if there's any $$$$ to be made)..... because SBN and TOL seem close together and SBN then seems to be giving a much more aggressive effort to lure service.

 


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6988 times:

F9's new strategy seems to be flying to rarely-used airports vs. battling WN and UA in the bigger markets. Here's hoping it works for them, but I see nothing but further erosion of the market as this drags further along.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25407 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6978 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Of course $750,000 question is what happens when the funding period ends....

That's always the question. Sometimes it doesn't work - ICT - and sometimes it does, such as PHF.

DEN-PHF has a healthy revenue guarantee (not SCASD) of $1.2 million, of which only about $200,000 has ever been used, and most of that was during the first winter season.

During the summer, the aircraft are packed and now it's up to daily and going year round. The revenue guarantee has been extended, which suggests they see value for money.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6978 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 6):
They want to join the F9 route map as well with a SCASD grant that they got about the same time as SBN's. But as you said, they haven't had the best luck with SCASD grants (hello, JetAmerica).

JetAmerica never actually tapped the SCASD grant for NYC service. The port used taxpayer dollars, expecting to be reimbursed for the startup costs from the SCASD grant. That grant was extended a few times before it was finally given back. Obviously they are not trying too hard to use the grant (given the success of other cities in attracting F9), or even F9 knows that TOL is just going to be a cash vacuum. I don't want to see the money used for anything but attracting new service to TOL. You gotta crawl before you can walk. The building needs a roof that doesn't leak, and more airplanes flying to it, before you do something like a CUTE system at TOL.


User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 5):
Crew scheduling is the reason for this. The same crew that brings it in one night takes it back the next day, and this gives acceptable time for crew rest unless there's a serious inbound delay. Frontier sometimes does this at daily stations to avoid rotating crew overnights, but it's especially important at a less-than-daily station like this

F9 doing the same thing here in GRR, only daily.

Now that GRR lost F9 MKE ERJ service, the one flight per day to DEN thing has me scratching my head. Seems like 2x per day would generate more volume due to connection options- operate the E190 2x instead of A319/ A320 1x per day which sits idle 10-11 hours in GRR......



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25407 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6856 times:
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Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 15):
Now that GRR lost F9 MKE ERJ service, the one flight per day to DEN thing has me scratching my head. Seems like 2x per day would generate more volume due to connection options- operate the E190 2x instead of A319/ A320 1x per day which sits idle 10-11 hours in GRR......

1 x daily (or less) is fairly standard for Frontier at the smaller stations.

DEN-MSN did so well they put it up to 2 x daily for a while but that pushed the market a tad too far. So it's a happy 1 x daily again.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6834 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
nd closing out I don't think that F9 is going to TOL (although I could be wrong, and personally would want to see F9 there if there's any $$$$ to be made)..... because SBN and TOL seem close together and SBN then seems to be giving a much more aggressive effort to lure service.

Distance means nothing....they are in GRR, IND, and MDW (and DTW). F9 won't end up in TOL because of lack of hard physical work by the Port and the fact they would compete with themselves out of DTW.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6744 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 1):
I think the biggest competitor here will be Allegiant

I dont think so. Passengers flying to LAS will still probably fly G4. You cant get the casino and hotel deals from F9 that you can get from G4.

These new 4 day per week schedules I think really ensure F9 wont get business travel.

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 15):
Now that GRR lost F9 MKE ERJ service, the one flight per day to DEN thing has me scratching my head. Seems like 2x per day would generate more volume due to connection options- operate the E190 2x instead of A319/ A320 1x per day which sits idle 10-11 hours in GRR......

I think youre right. 2x daily with E90 would be better for GRR than once daily A319. It would given them a much better schedule than UA.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 17):
Distance means nothing....they are in GRR, IND, and MDW (and DTW). F9 won't end up in TOL because of lack of hard physical work by the Port and the fact they would compete with themselves out of DTW.

I doubt that F9 is getting a lot of traffic out of DTW that comes up from TOL. Delta definitely, but probably not F9.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25407 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6726 times:
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Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 17):
Distance means nothing....they are in GRR, IND, and MDW (and DTW). F9 won't end up in TOL because of lack of hard physical work by the Port and the fact they would compete with themselves out of DTW.

That last is probably a consideration.

It always surprises me how well Frontier does out of DTW, at least in terms of loads. In February, for example, the average l/f was 95%. In March (the latest numbers I've seen, the l/f was over 90%.

I doubt they want to fool around was that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7320 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6716 times:

I imagine that whenever F9 puts out a press release somebody yells over to the P.R Department, "before it goes out, make sure the check has cleared".

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2208 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6697 times:

wowowowowowowowwow.

exciting news! i attended Notre Dame. i once flew F9 to DEN (and onward to SJD) for Spring Break haha.

  



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3768 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6618 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
These new 4 day per week schedules I think really ensure F9 wont get business travel.

Lake City Bank (located in Warsaw, halfway between SBN and FWA) said in the SCASD application that they were ready to support the service.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Passengers flying to LAS will still probably fly G4. You cant get the casino and hotel deals from F9 that you can get from G4.

F9 has no carryon bag fee, premium seating options, IFE, free soft drinks, and other perks that G4 lacks. If the fare is similar, one might choose to take a connection in DEN to get to LAS over the G4 nonstop.

(I'm not bashing G4... I've flown them before FWA-SFB and back. They have a solid product, and they do what is said on the box: deliver a very good vacation deal.)

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
It always surprises me how well Frontier does out of DTW, at least in terms of loads. In February, for example, the average l/f was 95%. In March (the latest numbers I've seen, the l/f was over 90%.

I doubt they want to fool around was that.

On a related subject, how does F9 do out of IND? Are the loads so good that they would have a hard time serving, say, FWA or CVG, or has WN on IND-DEN hurt F9 on the route?



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25407 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6556 times:
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Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):
On a related subject, how does F9 do out of IND? Are the loads so good that they would have a hard time serving, say, FWA or CVG, or has WN on IND-DEN hurt F9 on the route?

DEN-IND seems to do well, still. I believe February and March (the latest I've seen) were both over 90% average l/f.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6517 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):
F9 has no carryon bag fee, premium seating options, IFE, free soft drinks, and other perks that G4 lacks. If the fare is similar, one might choose to take a connection in DEN to get to LAS over the G4 nonstop.

No one cares about that in these type of markets. If they did, Spirit and Allegiant would be forced to change their business plan long ago.

Plus if F9 Revenue Management has even one competent analyst, they wont be taking much LAS traffic at all.


25 mariner : If that's where folk want to go and if it helps to fill the planes - especially in winter - I can't think why not. mariner
26 freakyrat : We also don't know where the jet will go after it gets to DEN. When Piedmont flew their westbound route out of SBN to their hub in DAY they went to LA
27 PSU.DTW.SCE : F9 is almost always the cheapest fare when going to West Coast markets, connecting through DEN.
28 freakyrat : I don't know how many $79.00 seats they are going to have for sale, but the first flight is on the home weekend of the Notre Dame-Stanford game and th
29 toltommy : Every airline serving DTW benefits from TOL leakage. F9 may benefit well because the TOL market has been conditioned to expect unsustainably low fare
30 freakyrat : The 79.00 fares are already gone for the Notre Dame weekend.
31 freakyrat : F9 for SBN-DFW is cheaper at the regular F9 fare than the competitors fare to Chicago.
32 Post contains images flyinryan99 : Delta for sure gets a lot of it but there is actually quite a bit of O/D DEN-TOL. I remember doing 20 ppd alone on TZ when we ran flights through MDW
33 smoot4208 : Unfortunately, I think F9 learned their lesson in LGB about what it did to SNA and LAX. While I think both FNT and TOL could work to DEN if it was F9
34 milesrich : It's been years, but UA did a good business in SBN, until they decided that SBN was too close to ORD and pulled their flights to SBN from Chicago, but
35 freakyrat : milesrich said: "It's been years, but UA did a good business in SBN, until they decided that SBN was too close to ORD and pulled their flights to SBN
36 freakyrat : Since United operated this route in the 70's Yield Management has gotten better at all airlines. We didn't have all the sophisticated computers and pr
37 PSU.DTW.SCE : I certainly hope they weren't using "data" from the 70s & 80s to make their decisions. Completely different environment back then and just because
38 tjwgrr : As long as you're at it, how does DEN-GRR do? Thx.
39 freakyrat : That's right yield management is much better that the 70's or 80's. SBN does have a fairly wide catchment area and also a rail link to part of that ca
40 bobloblaw : Because the LAS pax will be likely displacing higher revenue pax going elsewhere and F9 revenue will be diluted. Only if the LAS pax at G4 fares occu
41 mariner : DEN-GRR - February 88% and March 85%. mariner
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