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PAL To Add Toronto,NY, Paris, Rome Within 7 Months  
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11696 times:

Just found through the web.
PAL's president announced the launch of new direct services to Toronto, New York, Paris and Rome among others in the near future.

Quote:

Flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) will add direct flights to Toronto, Canada by end of this year and service New York, Paris, France, Rome and other destinations in Europe by February, 2013, declared new President Ramon S. Ang.
http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/367232/pal-sets-new-western-destinations

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19204 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11662 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
PAL's president announced the launch of new direct services to Toronto, New York, Paris and Rome among others in the near future.

Long sectors which will be costly to operate (in terms of trip costs) and which will probably generate low yields (both from the long distances and probably reasonably low per-passenger revenue) given their likely target segments.

We shall see if such services are financially successful.  



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11580 times:

Wouldn't London be a better fit than Paris?


Future flights: CPH-BKK-MNL; MNL-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-LAX
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11582 times:
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The Philippines remain on the EU black list at the moment don't they ?
Cetainly not charged since March and not changed by the April updated either.

So unless they have/are going to use US or EI registered and certified aircraft they won't be in Europe soon.


User currently offlineOH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1436 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11513 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 3):
The Philippines remain on the EU black list at the moment don't they ?

I checked the same thing myself - any airline from the Philippines is on the EU blacklist still from the latest update - I was wondering if there were any rumblings about PR being added as an exception (this is done for many other countries, for example TAAG and Air Astana are granted exemptions although the rest of the carriers based in these countries are EU blacklisted).

It certainly seems ambitious, and I have the same worries that Pe@rson brought up - notably the long stage length and the overwhelming VFR makeup of passenger traffic. Not to mention the payload - when I worked at SFO seeing the lineup from Aisle 10 almost all the way to the G checkpoint and everyone with at least a couple balikbayan boxes, it just boggled my mind... although perhaps the excess baggage surcharges could mitigate that somewhat?



Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11374 times:
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This is the salient part of the interview with President Ramon S. Ang

He knows full well that an early return to Europe is unlikely


Quoted from a piece written by By EMMIE V. ABADILLA of Manila Bulletin
"While to date, PAL has no allocations for the Canadian, American and European destinations it targets to serve, Ang is confident. “The Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) will help us,” he said by way of explanation but declined to elaborate."

Quoting OH-LGA (Reply 4):
I was wondering if there were any rumblings about PR being added as an exception

This is possible but not before April 2013 one would have thought

All that said what i do find somewhat odd about the EU ban on the Phillippines (due to administrative issues with CAAP )is that EU companies including Virgin Atlantic use Lufthansa Technic in Manila for servicing their A340s !


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11121 times:

Overexpansion? Seems very optimistic, and not really a great time to attempt this quest.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10953 times:

I just double checked - PAL is not in any alliance! This was quite surprising - is it because of the EU thing?

User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10881 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
PAL is not in any alliance! This was quite surprising - is it because of the EU thing?

Yes. Almost certainly.


User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10866 times:

I don't know what "direct" means in this case, but Toronto-Manila is 400 miles further than Toronto-Hong Kong, so if it's going to be non-stop service, it's going to involve payload penalties and it's going to be a brutally long flight. Toronto-Hong Kong is a 15-hour flight.

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10772 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
Just found through the web.
PAL's president announced the launch of new direct services to Toronto, New York, Paris and Rome among others in the near future.

The April, 2012 issue of Airways Magazine had a very nice feature article about PAL.

According to Airways, because the US Federal Aviation Administration designates the Philippines a "Category II" country, PAL cannot add additional cities in the US, or even change equipment types.

PAL wants to replace the A340-300s flying to LAX and LAS with 777s, but they are unable to do so until the Philippines go back to Category I.

Canada is a little more flexible, so PAL flies 777s MNL-YVR 4x week. On the other three days, when the MNL-YVR flight continues to LAS, PAL uses A340s due to the Category II issue.

PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS. Earlier this month, I flew them for no other reason than to add PAL, and the A340, to my logbook. There were about 75 local passengers on my flight, in addition to a large number of passengers flying through from MNL.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10677 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS.

Not full. Canadian restrictions only allow PAL to fly YVR-LAS-YVR carrying up to half of the A340's capacity.

On the Philippine thread, I posted about this, and it said that CDG will most likely not start until February 2014, according to the inquirer.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10208 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):

PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 11):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
PAL has full local traffic rights on YVR-LAS.

Not full. Canadian restrictions only allow PAL to fly YVR-LAS-YVR carrying up to half of the A340's capacity.

Correct. That's common wording in many bilaterals since 5th freedom traffic is supposd to be a by-product, not the primary reason for existence of the flight.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
Canada is a little more flexible, so PAL flies 777s MNL-YVR 4x week. On the other three days, when the MNL-YVR flight continues to LAS, PAL uses A340s due to the Category II issue.

The new 2008 Canada-Philippines bilateral is very liberal. Philippine carriers are permitted to serve 3 cities in Canada of their choosing with no frequency restrictions. Fifth freedom service between Canada and the U.S. is permitted (except between YYZ and points in California) on 2 sectors and frequency on each 5th freedom sector is restricted to 4 flights a week (and not more than 50% of the capacity of the aircraft, calculated on an annual basis). Any changes to U.S. service is of course dependent on their current FAA Category 2 status being lifted.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10164 times:

A lot of cruise worker traffic goes to Rome from the P.I. but I cannot imagine it is high yielding.


“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4768 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10100 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):

The new 2008 Canada-Philippines bilateral is very liberal. Philippine carriers are permitted to serve 3 cities in Canada of their choosing with no frequency restrictions. Fifth freedom service between Canada and the U.S. is permitted (except between YYZ and points in California) on 2 sectors and frequency on each 5th freedom sector is restricted to 4 flights a week (and not more than 50% of the capacity of the aircraft, calculated on an annual basis). Any changes to U.S. service is of course dependent on their current FAA Category 2 status being lifted.

Thanks for this piece of information. I think it would be impossible for a B77W to operate year round without payload issues on the MNL-YYZ route nonstop hence with no 5th freedom available via SFO/LAX, it leaves serving YYZ via HNL or SEA only as an alternative viable option.

There are some reality points one must address here as well:

1. None of these routes to be launched + the current long haul ones make a total "net profit" for PAL
2. Even in the future, they cannot under any circumstances as the main form of traffic is low yielding VFR
3. Why is PAL looking at these routes when the annual market size and yields are higher on MNL-KWI + MNL-DOH + MNL-DXB and MNL-DMM along with lesser operating costs due to the lower flying distance involved
4. Isnt PAL on the EU black list currently? If so then when will this be lifted?

Now with regards to the new EU routes in particular, if both FCO and CDG are to be launched, I would speculate that it would be a tag on service i.e. MNL-FCO-CDG (unfortunately) with a B77W operated 4 times per week. For CDG, I would highly suggest that they operate the flight via KWI with 5th freedom rights (if granted) as there is good demand at decent yields on the KWI-CDG sector considering no one currently operates it nonstop plus the local Kuwaitis and expats flying this route will get alcohol on board which KU does not serve! Lastly, MNL-KWI-MNL portion of this route will always be full hence no problem there.

For FCO though it is a more trickier issue. The market size to FCO is 70,000 pax per year and to CDG its 67,000. Rome will not be able to sustain a year round 4 weekly B77W operated terminator service, therefore an alternative option is to have a triangular service such as MNL-FCO-MXP-MNL (MXP market size is 46,000 per year to MNL) or operate MNL-DEL-FCO four weekly with an A333 or B77W as you can then kill 2 birds with one stone.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10063 times:
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Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 13):

A lot of cruise worker traffic goes to Rome from the P.I. but I cannot imagine it is high yielding.

The Philippines biggest export is there young working population into various service industries in the West and Middle East, such as Nursing ,care of the elderly, more menial tasks and shipping and yes they do return regularly but are very low yielding.

Here in the UK my wife is a clinical manager in a London Hospital and has a significant number of Filipino staff under her control.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10027 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 15):
The Philippines biggest export is there young working population into various service industries in the West and Middle East, such as Nursing ,care of the elderly, more menial tasks and shipping and yes they do return regularly but are very low yielding.

Here in the UK my wife is a clinical manager in a London Hospital and has a significant number of Filipino staff under her control.

definetly. When I lived in Saudi Arabia, Filipinos were the largest groups of laborers it seemed, with Sri Lanka and Bangladesh close behind (at least where I was south of Riyadh.)



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10027 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
The new 2008 Canada-Philippines bilateral is very liberal. Philippine carriers are permitted to serve 3 cities in Canada of their choosing with no frequency restrictions. Fifth freedom service between Canada and the U.S. is permitted (except between YYZ and points in California) on 2 sectors and frequency on each 5th freedom sector is restricted to 4 flights a week (and not more than 50% of the capacity of the aircraft, calculated on an annual basis).

Very interesting and thank you for this clarification Viscount'.

This brings up an important question then (for me anyway.) You say that Canada-U.S. service is restricted to 2 sectors. If I am interpreting you correctly, with YVR-LAS in place already, that means that only 1 more Canada-U.S. route could be added? So if PR does a tag-on from YYZ to somewhere in the U.S., it could only be offered 4x weekly, and that would be it for U.S. tag-ons?

Or are you saying Canada-U.S. service is limited to 2 sectors for each Canadian city served? I will assume PR is planning on nonstop service between MNL and JFK although I've seen talk about MNL-YYZ-JFK...

My base interest here is (if not everybody out there already realizes it) is if PR is still even considering SAN-service? I haven't heard it mentioned lately and I've pretty much given up on it. But this information on the 2008 bilateral certainly is pertinent.

Of course, any of this is moot until something, someday, happens regarding the FAA Safety Audit and the Cat I/II issue. (Which doesn't seem to be anything major when we read about the new CEO of PR talking about new service to JFK coming "soon".)

bb


User currently offlineairlineaddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9857 times:
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In another thread we discussed that based on Ramon Ang's assertions of returning to Europe and other points in the US that he was either pulling an Turkish Airways style announcements or PR was going to invest in another airline in SE Asia that is not on the EU Blacklist or Cat II per the FAA.

Guess we'll find out which is the case before the end of the year.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9749 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
This brings up an important question then (for me anyway.) You say that Canada-U.S. service is restricted to 2 sectors. If I am interpreting you correctly, with YVR-LAS in place already, that means that only 1 more Canada-U.S. route could be added? So if PR does a tag-on from YYZ to somewhere in the U.S., it could only be offered 4x weekly, and that would be it for U.S. tag-ons?

Yes, that's the way it's worded. Two transborder 5th freedom sectors in total with a maximum of 4 flights weekly on each (and no 5th freedom permitted on YYZ-California sectors).


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9692 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Two transborder 5th freedom sectors in total with a maximum of 4 flights weekly on each (and no 5th freedom permitted on YYZ-California sectors).

Thank you Viscount'. Not exactly what I like hearing but IF we ever see the return to Cat I, I guess I'll start thinking about the options that PR might exercise then.

bb


User currently offlineANA787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9615 times:

Is PAL still interested in serving SAN? What about a MNL-SEA/PDX-YYZ route?

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9010 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
My base interest here is (if not everybody out there already realizes it) is if PR is still even considering SAN-service? I haven't heard it mentioned lately and I've pretty much given up on it. But this information on the 2008 bilateral certainly is pertinent.

This SAN notion has been a pipe dream for many here on A.Net over the years. I've seen it discussed here for so long but nothing from PAL on it. I personally don't think it makes sense, not when LAX is 100 miles away.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8994 times:
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Because of Philippines' Cat II status, PAL or any other Filipino airline cannot add flights to the US.

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8788 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 22):
This SAN notion has been a pipe dream for many here on A.Net over the years. I've seen it discussed here for so long but nothing from PAL on it.

Pre-San Miguel PAL has mentioned it quite a few times, and they nearly got DOT (or FAA) approval for it, which was derailed due to the imposition of Cat II. Hardly an A.Net pipe dream if you ask me.


25 tonymctigue : Very interesting! Would be great to see PAL spread its wings a bit further. Presumably these new services if the come to pass will be operated by thei
26 Norcal773 : B777s?? I thought they only have one and no others on order, no?
27 United Airline : What is the EU thing about?
28 Akiestar : They currently have three, and three more are coming.
29 abrelosojos : PR is looking at MNL-HNL-YYZ and MNL-YVR-EWR. Saludos, A.
30 SANFan : Well said, my friend.. bb
31 RWA380 : I doubt PR has the ability to make a high density aircraft work on an ULH route, I'd expect PR to fly to NYC and YYZ via other cities. I think CX get
32 ZKOJH : You can add MAN to the list as well - PAL have applied for 12 slots at MAN, weather it's for PAX or CARGO nobody knows, but until they get off the EU
33 Post contains links Akiestar : Saw this on SkyscraperCity: a new PAL video on service improvements, including: *A new slogan: "Towards New Altitudes" *The 77Ws *New destinations *Ab
34 Post contains images Akiestar : Hm. I haven't heard of PAL launching MAN, but more Europe service is always better! It will most likely be passenger service, since PAL does not have
35 RWA380 : As is always the bottom line issue, that comes up with every thread regarding this topic, until Cat 2 goes away, this is all just talk correct? All of
36 jcwr56 : Without going into a political topic, the fact is with the US refocusing on the Asian rim. The Philippines do and will play an important role, so....
37 Akiestar : Hm? I thought it's not PAL who's in Cat II, but the Philippines in general? So as long as the FAA thinks the CAAP is deficient, the entire country is
38 jcwr56 : You're correct, but since PAL seems to be the airline who wants to fly back to Europe and the US, they should be the ones leading the cause and pushi
39 SANFan : Except that for PR (including the CEO himself) to be making public remarks such as semingly disregarding this little detail of his airline not being
40 jcwr56 : Very true and I agree, but sometimes, one needs to look at things from more than an Aviation mindset. Politics always seem to work their way into thi
41 Viscount724 : MNL-HNL-YYZ would be a guaranteed loser. That's 20% further than via points like NRT and ICN. MNL is a highly price-sensitive and almost exclusivly l
42 dennys : What about the remaining A343 ? On which route will they flown ? MNL - CDG , Like in 1998 ?
43 Akiestar : They are already doing that. In fact, PAL paid for consultants (on its own dime, mind you) to help the CAAP get back to Cat I. Now as to whether or n
44 YVRSpeedBird : Mr. Ang has already said a few months ago that he's interested in more 77Ws, plus the 787 & 748. I'm inclined to believe that this possible order
45 Post contains images SANFan : And exactly what form of pressure do you envision Boeing being able to apply to the FAA????? Lower the standards the FAA expects to be met to pass th
46 YVRSpeedBird : Politics has a role in everything - especially in business. Your very own Rep. also tried to apply pressure on the FAA way back when PAL was making n
47 RWA380 : I thought Cebu Pacific wanted to offer both US & European flights but have not even pursued those challenges yet do to the Cat 2 rating, why acqu
48 jcwr56 : Again the larger picture is you have new ownership of PAL which has decided to raise standards of the airline itself. By doing so, Mr. Ang is leading
49 Post contains links Akiestar : I ran into this YouTube clip on a local forum, showing a video taken from the PAL launch party for RP-C7775. Basically, we can now confirm which desti
50 CHRISBA777ER : For the shipping market alone, AMS-MNL would do very well. KL could do with a competitor non-stop on the route. I still think this is one of the many
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