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BA Dropping LHR-HND?  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25357 posts, RR: 49
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10708 times:

Kinda strange, but I see the BA007/008 service zero’d out completely in GDS starting Janaury 7th. Its again avail starting February 3rd.

Anyone know whats up?

I know BA-JL in May received final government authority to offer a ATI JV on services between Japan and the EU.
Is this part of some future schedule changes for that?


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8372 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10659 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Kinda strange, but I see the BA007/008 service zero’d out completely in GDS starting Janaury 7th. Its again avail starting February 3rd.

They are "suspending" service for a month, Narita to LHR will still be flown.


User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2317 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10658 times:

Its a planned schedule change, a large number of long haul have winter period reductions

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10552 times:

Is anyone other than HA making money in Haneda?

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25357 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10535 times:

OK thanks.

Kinda strange to take an entire month off ha. I guess a frequency reduction would be more common.

Flight must not be doing too hot.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10260 times:

Seems that HND isn't working out so well for anyone


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 760 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10210 times:

I think BA competes with itself on this route as NRT gets the 777 with full new range of products and IFE whereas HND only gets New First as a maximum. If I were BA I would leave HND as ANAs ground and do double daily NRT.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17493 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10122 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 3):
Is anyone other than HA making money in Haneda?
Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Seems that HND isn't working out so well for anyone

It's not HND specifically, it's the times. And I think Japan knows that--as soon as they open up decent times at HND it will eviscerate NRT.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1325 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting BA174 (Reply 6):
If I were BA I would leave HND as ANAs ground and do double daily NRT.

Speculating here, presumably BA dropped the second daily NRT flight due to poor loads prior to the commencement of the HND service. Once the restrictions on foreign airlines out of HND, the stampede out of NRT to HND will be immediate.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3251 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9949 times:

LHR-Japan direct has collapsed in recent years. The second daily BA LHR-NRT was dropped alongwith the second daily JAL as well as JAL's LHR-OSA, all gone since 2008. Even that is down on what closed the end of the 1990s.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9781 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
They are "suspending" service for a month, Narita to LHR will still be flown.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 9):
LHR-Japan direct has collapsed in recent years. The second daily BA LHR-NRT was dropped alongwith the second daily JAL as well as JAL's LHR-OSA, all gone since 2008. Even that is down on what closed the end of the 1990s.

Somebody over in NRT told me that JAL is thinking about starting HND-LHR service? That didn't make much sense but what do you guys think?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9730 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
It's not HND specifically, it's the times.

Yes, I agree. The window is horrible for landings and takeoffs except for HNL.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9512 times:

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 8):
Speculating here, presumably BA dropped the second daily NRT flight due to poor loads prior to the commencement of the HND service. Once the restrictions on foreign airlines out of HND, the stampede out of NRT to HND will be immediate.

Then Tokyo would become another copy of Montreal. The international terminal at HND would be immediately overwhelmed while NRT would either be reborn as LCC heaven, or become a ghost town like PIT.


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9254 times:

I'm surprised that the bilateral isn't being ammended to allow daytime flights at HND for BA.

France has just concluded such an agreement when AF doesn't even fly to Haneda. I would have thought that BA - being the first and only European carrier to serve HND would receive such rights first.

I suspect though, if such an agreement was reached we would a single daily 77W to Haneda and wave goodbye to the Narita flights.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9229 times:
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Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):

I'm surprised that the bilateral isn't being ammended to allow daytime flights at HND for BA.

France has just concluded such an agreement when AF doesn't even fly to Haneda. I would have thought that BA - being the first and only European carrier to serve HND would receive such rights first.

Why that would require a decision and sign off on a transport policy by The Rt Hon Justine Greening MP and that would never do !


User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1325 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9082 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Somebody over in NRT told me that JAL is thinking about starting HND-LHR service? That didn't make much sense but what do you guys think?

It's makes sense due to the proximity of HND to central Tokyo. Business and liesure travellers would lap it up as the commute from Narita to central Tokyo is rather time consuming, some 60 minutes on the train.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9036 times:
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Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 15):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Somebody over in NRT told me that JAL is thinking about starting HND-LHR service? That didn't make much sense but what do you guys think?

It's makes sense due to the proximity of HND to central Tokyo. Business and liesure travellers would lap it up as the commute from Narita to central Tokyo is rather time consuming, some 60 minutes on the train.

Whist it would in theory make sense what with the multitude of JAL/J-Air connections , those stupid international flight slots at night only rules would hinder JAL as much as BA.

There need to be a window perhaps early afternoon for at least a few long haul flights from/to Haneda to function and operate profitably.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9022 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 16):
Whist it would in theory make sense what with the multitude of JAL/J-Air connections , those stupid international flight slots at night only rules would hinder JAL as much as BA.

I thought that the night slots were only for international airlines



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8970 times:

For several recent winters BA has used its computerised records to reduce its operations on selected long haul routes by blanking out certain days that historically show a low demand. This particularly applies to routes where there is more than a once daily service so that customers booked on the cancelled "early" flight can still travel (if less conveniently) on the still scheduled "late" flight (or vice versa). This likely means operating a single, quite full aircraft rather than two more-than-half-empty aircraft. This seems to me to make both sound business and environmental sense.

It is certainly unusual to cancel a whole months flights but as can be seen from the thread opener's post here:

BA's W12/13 LHR Mid/Longhaul Schedule Changes (by GSTBA Jul 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

one of the LHR-SFO flights is also cancelled for a significant run of consecutive days.

A restriction on how many flights can be cancelled in this way is the EU slot "use-it-or-lose-it" regulation which requires that a given slot must be used on a minimum of 80 per cent of possible occasions in any given season if confiscation is to be avoided. A flight disappearing for around a month in the five month winter season means that 80 poer cent of possible flights will (just) be operated. However it is quite easy for any airline with a large number of LHR slots, particularly BA, to slightly reschedule a short haul flight on a few days so that it fills a slot that might otherwise be in danger of confiscation.


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8922 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 14):
Why that would require a decision and sign off on a transport policy by The Rt Hon Justine Greening MP and that would never do !

This is probably the wrong place to pose this question BUT [and I speak as one of her constituents] is Justine Greening being MP for Putney incompatible with her responsibilities as the Transport secretary?

Does she not have a conflict between implementing an effective transport policy for the nation as a whole, and risking alienating her Putney voters [and risk losing her seat in parliament] by allowing expansion at Heathrow? Just a thought, but its a thought that's been bouncing round in my head for a while.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8893 times:
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Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19):
This is probably the wrong place to pose this question BUT [and I speak as one of her constituents] is Justine Greening being MP for Putney incompatible with her responsibilities as the Transport secretary?

Does she not have a conflict between implementing an effective transport policy for the nation as a whole, and risking alienating her Putney voters [and risk losing her seat in parliament] by allowing expansion at Heathrow? Just a thought, but its a thought that's been bouncing round in my head for a while.

Yes she does and thats exactly why the CONLIB Eaton boys chose her . To front the no LHR expansion policy.
In this first parliament they have no intention of making ANY log term commitments on anything really.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3251 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8875 times:

It was a well known issue when she was appointed. Cameron was happy to use this to promote his green credentials. Of course, in the real world, this lot of numpties know less than the last lot.

User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2089 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8627 times:

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19):
This is probably the wrong place to pose this question BUT [and I speak as one of her constituents] is Justine Greening being MP for Putney incompatible with her responsibilities as the Transport secretary?

Does she not have a conflict between implementing an effective transport policy for the nation as a whole, and risking alienating her Putney voters [and risk losing her seat in parliament] by allowing expansion at Heathrow? Just a thought, but its a thought that's been bouncing round in my head for a while.

There is speculation she will be moved from Transport in the reshuffle in the Autumn, because the Secretary of State for Transport can hardly approve a radical change in aviation policy when the Member of Parliament for Putney has been so vocal in her opposition to any sort of expansion at Heathrow (i.e. Miss Greening's role as a consituency MP is seen by many to be stopping her fulfilling the wider role of national interest that a Secretary of State must take).

I suspect a third runway will still be ruled out by a new Transport Secretary, but full mixed mode operation at LHR and some possible terminal expansion might be on the cards. Anything more, and I think Greening would resign - unless some major concessions were thrown her way (Just look at the amount of extra tunnelling added into the HS2 scheme around Aylesbury to placate the Member of Parliament for Aylesbury, Cheryl Gillan, who just happens to be in the Cabinet).

Back to topic though! With daytime slots at HND, and a JV with JAL in place, I could see BA and JL operating twice daily on LHR-HND with 77Ws, while one of the carriers might keep up a daily LHR-NRT flight on the 787. I think BA wants to stick out LHR-HND so that should the slot timings issue be resolved they have a better chance as an incumbent of getting early dibs on decent slots.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineDrColenzo From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2012, 141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6639 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 12):

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 8):
Speculating here, presumably BA dropped the second daily NRT flight due to poor loads prior to the commencement of the HND service. Once the restrictions on foreign airlines out of HND, the stampede out of NRT to HND will be immediate.

Then Tokyo would become another copy of Montreal. The international terminal at HND would be immediately overwhelmed while NRT would either be reborn as LCC heaven, or become a ghost town like PIT.

Absolutely spot on; whilst there will be an international expansion at HND the very nature of economic policy making in Japan will not allow NRT to be adversely affected, particularly as it is a major employer in a region blighted by the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami of 2011.

There is another reason NRT doesn't look bad, which is.... (drum roll!)

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 15):
It's makes sense due to the proximity of HND to central Tokyo. Business and liesure travellers would lap it up as the commute from Narita to central Tokyo is rather time consuming, some 60 minutes on the train.

Is one of the biggest fallacies concerning the relative merits of HND vs NRT; with either the JR service (55 minutes) or the much faster Keisei Skyliner (40 minutes) one spends all that time on one's backside and ends up in central Tokyo where one needs to be, particularly for me as the JR service will take me directly to Shinjuku station once an hour and that is where I need to be.

However, HND is closer to the city centre and has the pretty cool monorail, but the journey to somewhere like Ueno or Shinjuku is a royal pain in the rectum and involves a lot of change and takes...roughly an hour! Trust me, I have literally done NRT to the city many times and HND a few and if you are feeling groggy after a 12 - 14 hour flight, travelling on the Narita Express or the Skyliner is much, much preferable to mucking about with travelling from Haneda.


User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 797 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6438 times:

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 23):
However, HND is closer to the city centre and has the pretty cool monorail, but the journey to somewhere like Ueno or Shinjuku is a royal pain in the rectum and involves a lot of change and takes...roughly an hour! Trust me, I have literally done NRT to the city many times and HND a few and if you are feeling groggy after a 12 - 14 hour flight, travelling on the Narita Express or the Skyliner is much, much preferable to mucking about with travelling from Haneda.

Come now, transferring from the Monorail to the Yamanote Line for Ueno/Tokyo/Shinjuku/Shibuya is easy as pie   just down one or two flights of stairs and you are done, just one change. There's also direct train service from Haneda to Asakusa.

You also have multiple lines of limousine buses that take around 30 minutes or less to reach downtown Tokyo (at around 1000 yen or less, vs 3000 yen and 60+ minutes from Narita)

Access to the Yokohama in the south is also only 30 minutes and around 500 yen, vs 90 minutes and a whopping 3000 yen on the Narita Express.

While on board travel times to some destinations might be similar thanks to the brand new Skyliner, frequency on those express services is still not as high as the Monorail or the Keikyu line which can add to overall travel times. You just mentioned it, the direct to Shinjuku leaves once an hour !

I will concede that the Keisei and Narita Express are more plush and comfortable vs the more commuter type options from Haneda, but if you're staying anywhere else other than Tokyo/Ueno/Shinjuku, you'll probably have to get down and dirty on the town with your bags eventually. Unless you take the taxi or a limo bus of course.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
France has just concluded such an agreement when AF doesn't even fly to Haneda. I would have thought that BA - being the first and only European carrier to serve HND would receive such rights first.

How's that? France got daytime slots into HND??

[Edited 2012-07-25 01:21:23]

25 Post contains images DrColenzo : Come on, using the Yamanote Line successfully with jet lag and bags depends on the time of day and ultimately what mood you are in and I have never,
26 G-CIVP : Where travel from HND wins is the frequency of the monorail services to Hamamatucho, then the transfer to the JR loop line. The bind at NRT is waiting
27 mdavies06 : I think BA has done extremely well having held onto this route with such ghastly departure time at haneda. If and when their ati with JL come into pla
28 edina : The Japanese business community in London won't touch the route for two reasons....not only is the schedule very poor - it does little to attract prem
29 DrColenzo : That sounds about right
30 G-CIVP : Got to agree with edina, if the HND route timing was at more civil hours, especially the departure from HND to LHR, I think you would get more interes
31 Tristarsteve : You are our expert on slots, but I don't think it works like that. I believe that the slots are tied to a flight number. So if you have a daily slot
32 BA174 : I doubt they will be allowed to say but I jeavily doubt they use the Ibis at LHR.
33 G-CIVP : BA174 - probably but I've seen BA crew use the Ibis, much to my disbelief.
34 carpethead : For NH & JL, it's their bread and butter, especially domestic. I suspect most of the Asian airlines, whether be it Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese who
35 edina : The Ibis is not used in an official capacity, but many commuting crew use it in preference to staying at a local B&B pre/post trip as it's more c
36 Post contains links VV701 : On reflectioin this is almost certainly correct. If it were not flight number - call sign related, Airport Coordination Ltd, who are responsible for
37 B747-4U3 : Airline routes reported on the 9th July that in the new France - Japan bilateral it had been agreed that each side would have 2 daily daytime slots f
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