cosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 202 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8809 times:
Hi, Long time reader, first time poster.
I know with the merger and the IAH scuffle that United says they won't start IAH-AKL, (despite still showing it as a future route on their July route map.) but does any United insider know if there are any potential plans to start AKL from LAX or SFO? 787's are coming soon, and I hope it means more new routes than just DEN-NRT.
I know pmUA flew to AKL in the past, and it didn't last, but a 787 might be a lot more profitable on a route like this than the 744's they used to fly on that route. My wife and I were planning to go to New Zealand next August, so we have to book with our miles in the next month or so to ensure Business Class. I would really like to fly a 787 in pmCO's J than a 744 to SYD, which I have flown before, and its several hours out of the way and extra customs each way. (Side question, can you change planes in SYD without going through Australian Customs?)
Any insight anyone has, or just wishful thinking, would be welcome. Thanks!
RDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1063 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8768 times:
Quoting cosyr (Thread starter): despite still showing it as a future route on their July route map
It is being removed from the August distribution.
Quoting cosyr (Thread starter): so we have to book with our miles in the next month or so to ensure Business Class.
Unfortunately, you cannot book the direct flight on NZ with miles through UA. But you can, as you mentioned, book through SYD on UA then SYD-AKL on NZ.
United787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2347 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8766 times:
Quoting cosyr (Thread starter): (despite still showing it as a future route on their July route map.)
I noticed that too and that makes me think it isn't totally dead... I believe there is a chance we will still see IAH-AKL. I would be curious to know how many cities are served on UA via IAH that aren't served via SFO and LAX, I would imagine quite a few...
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8754 posts, RR: 52 Reply 3, posted (10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8667 times:
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1):
Unfortunately, you cannot book the direct flight on NZ with miles through UA. But you can, as you mentioned, book through SYD on UA then SYD-AKL on NZ.
When did that change? Availability can be tight, but with both UA and NZ as star alliance partners, I didn’t know there was an embargo on North America routes for miles redemption. NZ flights don’t show when you try to book online through the UA’s website, but I didn’t realize they won’t sell them at all.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
RDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1063 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8543 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3): When did that change? Availability can be tight, but with both UA and NZ as star alliance partners, I didn’t know there was an embargo on North America routes for miles redemption. NZ flights don’t show when you try to book online through the UA’s website, but I didn’t realize they won’t sell them at all.
I went in and searched award tickets LAX-AKL and it only came up with the connection through SYD. But if you search by price (non-award) and click Non-Stop only, then it will give you the option to book the direct LAX-AKL on NZ.
nyc2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 653 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8502 times:
While the new UA site is good I would suggest you search another site that caters to frequent travelers on how to search StarNet. ANA is a good membership to have in order to search *Net.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
st530 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 134 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8486 times:
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 1): It is being removed from the August distribution.
Is it also being removed from the web site route map, where it still shows as a future route more than a month after UA's hissy fit over the SW approval?
steex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1435 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8288 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 2): I would be curious to know how many cities are served on UA via IAH that aren't served via SFO and LAX, I would imagine quite a few...
Sure, but how many with any significant demand to/from New Zealand or Australia? Most of those cities served by IAH and not SFO/LAX are going to be secondary markets, many of them in Mexico. Even from those, a lot of the demand is going to be tourists looking to go to Sydney who would either have to double connect XXX-HUB-SFO/LAX-SYD or XXX-IAH-AKL-SYD.
The NZ/UA codeshare agreement could have some relevance. The full details of the agreement were not disclosed, but altering or ending the agreement could have consequences neither party wants at this time.
Prior to the codeshare NZ and UA competed on AKL-LAX and SYD-LAX and some NZ services included a LAX-HNL sector. Under the codeshare agreement UA ceased AKL-LAX and NZ ceased SYD-LAX and LAX-HNL.
NZ now owns 20% of VA, but does not codeshare on any VA AUS-USA services.
IAH-AKL was announced by CO before the merger with UA. Postmerger the NZ/UA codeshare agreement would apply.
thats because you can't book that online, but it doesn't mean it wasn't available as a Star Alliance Award. Online booking of awards is UA metal + a few partners; everything else requires a phone call.
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7870 times:
Quoting civetfive (Reply 9): Online booking of awards is UA metal + a few partners; everything else requires a phone call.
More than just a "few". Other than the panic band-aid fix that blocks any SQ from showing and a certain bug that prevent nonstop NH from showing (they show up fine as the 2nd leg of a connection), nearly all non-embargo'ed flights from Star Alliance show up properly on the website.
Even QR, a non-star-alliance ex-partner, shows up bookable on the website. Phone calls are rare unless you're trying to stitch together a frankenstein more complex than the web engine could handle.
md3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 84 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7655 times:
There is no award embargo on NZ flights using United miles.
Having the ability to show partner inventory is very different than accurately producing true inventory for all the partners set up to run through the UA booking engine. Just compare with the results from SkyWeb, and you'll see UA.com results are less than 100% of what's actually available. Some award search engines are just better than others, whether it's programming or something else, I don't know.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 13, posted (10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7630 times:
Quoting cosyr (Thread starter): I know pmUA flew to AKL in the past, and it didn't last, but a 787 might be a lot more profitable on a route like this than the 744's they used to fly on that route.
UA was using the 772 on LAX-AKL, not the 744, when they dropped the route in March 2003.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6050 posts, RR: 25 Reply 14, posted (10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7515 times:
Quoting md3 (Reply 12): Having the ability to show partner inventory is very different than accurately producing true inventory for all the partners set up to run through the UA booking engine. Just compare with the results from SkyWeb, and you'll see UA.com results are less than 100% of what's actually available. Some award search engines are just better than others, whether it's programming or something else, I don't know.
You can easily find Y availability on NZ via the UA booking engine. However, getting J availability is a different story. NZ rarely releases it for UA and when they do it's often at the last minute. Hence, getting to AKL in J using UA miles is difficult....many are forced to fly UA to SYD, then make the hop over to AKL.
MotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 2760 posts, RR: 10 Reply 16, posted (10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5036 times:
Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 15): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
UA was using the 772 on LAX-AKL, not the 744, when they dropped the route in March 2003.
UA used the 747 to AKL from 1986 when they started AKL to at least 2001 or 2002. The majority of the time AKL was served it was a 747.
But what I think that demonstrates is that even with a smaller more efficient aircraft, UA couldn't get the LAX-AKL route to work for it and chose to codeshare with its alliance partner NZ instead. oneworld too have now bowed out of this market and staralliance, via NZ, enjoy a monopoly position which will change, to some degree, when HA enters the market next March (initially with 763's).
ZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5020 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4460 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17): As I recall the count was almost 75 counting the airport staff, city office, admin, cargo, reservations etc.
96
Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 16): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
UA was using the 772 on LAX-AKL, not the 744, when they dropped the route in March 2003.
UA used the 747 to AKL from 1986 when they started AKL to at least 2001 or 2002. The majority of the time AKL was served it was a 747.
But what I think that demonstrates is that even with a smaller more efficient aircraft, UA couldn't get the LAX-AKL route to work for it and chose to codeshare with its alliance partner NZ instead
Well it worked for 17 years and as I understood they did ok most of the time, when backrupcy and 9/11 hit they needed to rejig and AKL with 96 staff for 1 daily flight had to go when they could codeshare with NZ who inturn cut SYD-LAX.
Its hard to say weather they will try AKL from LAX/SFO I think not myself, but hope i'm wrong.
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2167 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4409 times:
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 18): Its hard to say weather they will try AKL from LAX/SFO I think not myself, but hope i'm wrong
Why would they with NZ doing a nice job for *A customers, that's quite a long route to the fly, just to compete with your own partner carrier on, I think NZ provides enough lift for the market, and TN, HA can fill the difference.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SEA-KOA on DH4/738 in F, HA KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
quiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 day ago) and read 4075 times:
If having 96 people on the payroll was too expensive for one daily flight, why not lay off or terminate some of those employees? In the end, by canceling that flight, they all got the axe anyway when the station closed, no?
traindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 309 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (10 months 23 hours ago) and read 4047 times:
NZ's CEO has said publicly that they are "looking" at flying AKL-IAH-AKL, since UA was dropping the route before it ever got started. The route could well work, just as QF has had success with SYD-DFW.
ZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5020 posts, RR: 12 Reply 22, posted (10 months 20 hours ago) and read 3903 times:
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 20): If having 96 people on the payroll was too expensive for one daily flight, why not lay off or terminate some of those employees? In the end, by canceling that flight, they all got the axe anyway when the station closed, no?
It was in the contracts that people couldn't be layed off since many of them at AKL were from the PA days at AKL whom UA brought the route from along with there other Pacific routes in 1986.
There is an article floating around saying UA may increase Australia services with 787s and it mentions in there that they are still looking or considering AKL from somewhere. I'm not sure where it originated or on a link though.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22070 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (10 months 19 hours ago) and read 3821 times:
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 20): If having 96 people on the payroll was too expensive for one daily flight, why not lay off or terminate some of those employees? In the end, by canceling that flight, they all got the axe anyway when the station closed, no?
In essence the only way to get rid of the people contractually and within local regulations was to close the station.
Same with some other UA stations - for example SAL and GUA had similar ex Pan Am staffing issues which contributed to them getting shut also.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (10 months 19 hours ago) and read 3803 times:
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 20): If having 96 people on the payroll was too expensive for one daily flight, why not lay off or terminate some of those employees? In the end, by canceling that flight, they all got the axe anyway when the station closed, no?
There may of been various union issues that made it complicated to layoff people at that station. It was probably a lot less complicated to partner with NZ and just shutdown their station.
quiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (10 months 15 hours ago) and read 3786 times:
And, if UA re-starts service to AKL (on UA metal), are they free from the PA contractual shackles so they could now staff the station at appropriate levels and/or sub-contract operations to a third party?
icanfly From Australia, joined Aug 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (10 months 12 hours ago) and read 3691 times:
Quoting cosyr (Thread starter): (Side question, can you change planes in SYD without going through Australian Customs?)
Yes. You just need to follow the signs for an international transfer, put your bags through the scanner and head to the gate. You don't pass through Australian immigration or customs. The transfer procedure to AKL is the same as if you were heading to MEL on UA.
PA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (10 months 1 hour ago) and read 3330 times:
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 22): Quoting quiet1 (Reply 20):
If having 96 people on the payroll was too expensive for one daily flight, why not lay off or terminate some of those employees? In the end, by canceling that flight, they all got the axe anyway when the station closed, no?
It was in the contracts that people couldn't be layed off since many of them at AKL were from the PA days at AKL whom UA brought the route from along with there other Pacific routes in 1986.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23): In essence the only way to get rid of the people contractually and within local regulations was to close the station.
Quoting spink (Reply 24): There may of been various union issues that made it complicated to layoff people at that station. It was probably a lot less complicated to partner with NZ and just shutdown their station.
Union issues were not the reason UA ceased AKL-LAX. The non management staff were paid redundancy according to length of service in accordance with the union contract.
UA could have contracted ground handling to Air NZ and just maintained a small sales and management presence. I believe the extent of the NZ/UA codeshare agreement was the reason.
thegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2612 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (10 months ago) and read 3274 times:
Quoting cosyr (Thread starter): Any insight anyone has, or just wishful thinking, would be welcome. Thanks!
Is it worth it? LAX-SYD-AKL just to use miles. If you flew NZ LAX-AKL you'd save 6+ hours of travelling and get some extra miles. Avoiding UA's 744 service is a good thing too.
Quoting PA515 (Reply 8): Prior to the codeshare NZ and UA competed on AKL-LAX and SYD-LAX and some NZ services included a LAX-HNL sector. Under the codeshare agreement UA ceased AKL-LAX and NZ ceased SYD-LAX and LAX-HNL.
Isn't that illegal collusion? Or did I mistake you.
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5338 posts, RR: 8 Reply 31, posted (10 months ago) and read 3246 times:
Quoting thegeek (Reply 30): uoting PA515 (Reply 8):
Prior to the codeshare NZ and UA competed on AKL-LAX and SYD-LAX and some NZ services included a LAX-HNL sector. Under the codeshare agreement UA ceased AKL-LAX and NZ ceased SYD-LAX and LAX-HNL.
Isn't that illegal collusion? Or did I mistake you.
UA and NZ have ATI...they can coordinate pricing, routes and schedules with no issue.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22070 posts, RR: 51 Reply 32, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3042 times:
Quoting United1 (Reply 31): UA and NZ have ATI...they can coordinate pricing, routes and schedules with no issue.
The ATI which commenced in 2001 has carve outs.
For example both LAX-AKL and LAX-SYD are both carve out markets where the carriers may not coordinate on.
[Edited 2012-07-29 22:19:57]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7350 posts, RR: 7 Reply 33, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2816 times:
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 25): And, if UA re-starts service to AKL (on UA metal), are they free from the PA contractual shackles so they could now staff the station at appropriate levels and/or sub-contract operations to a third party?
Its been over 25 years since United took over the PA Asian routes, what contracts are you referring to ? Whatever contracts PA had in force in NZ in 1986 when they sold to UA had to have expired by now.
Does NZ have onerous employee termnation costs like TWA and AA has been trashed with in the Israel press ? That is why AA does NOT fly to Israel. TWA's former employees in TLV were owed lots of money by TWA when that airline closed its doors.
cosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
Quoting thegeek (Reply 30): Is it worth it? LAX-SYD-AKL just to use miles. If you flew NZ LAX-AKL you'd save 6+ hours of travelling and get some extra miles. Avoiding UA's 744 service is a good thing too.
Yes, it is definately worth it. I would love to fly UA's 747 either in the nose or upstairs, unless 787 is an option to try it out. I also wouldn't mind trying out Air New Zealand's Business Class on a short route. Most importantly, our last trip to New Zealand was on QANTAS, through the old Continental partnership. Business Class for 2 people was 210k miles, not much more than Europe, but we priced those tickets at $36,000 (US)!! My company was not footing the bill. I don't have the money to spend more than my car is worth on a couple of plane tickets.
thegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2612 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
Cuts down your options of NZ flights if you must have business - they only offer it on a wide body. I get $US4652 per person per direction for LAX-AKL, but still not cheap.
It doesn't sound right that you can't use miles for travel with NZ. But if you'd rather do that, each to their own.
motorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 2760 posts, RR: 10 Reply 36, posted (9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2421 times:
Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 28): Maybe, but it depends on the marker, there was a small market for IAH-AKL.
The market of UA's feed from the South (including Houston), the East Coast and the Mid-West is not insignificant. Not forgetting that AKL is a gateway to both New Zealand and Australia.
BTW, does the 788 have the legs for IAH-SYD return year round? There's always this option if NZ initiate the AKL-IAH route themselves.
RDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1063 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2267 times:
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 36): BTW, does the 788 have the legs for IAH-SYD return year round? There's always this option if NZ initiate the AKL-IAH route themselves.
I would doubt it. IAH-SYD is nearly 1k miles further at 8596mi on GCmap. You could see it running SFO-SYD as a second daily perhaps during high season, but I'd say you'll probably see some of the other SFO/LAX routes to Asia getting them first, as well as probably some IAH-Europe perhaps.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2191 times:
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 36): BTW, does the 788 have the legs for IAH-SYD return year round? There's always this option if NZ initiate the AKL-IAH route themselves.
depends on what the official range ends up being. Right now is quoting 7650-8200 on their website. The GC route is roughly 7500 nmi, so the 7650 range probably doesn't cut it, the 8200 range however does. IAH-SYD would be one of the longest routes in service if someone did it. It is basically the same distance as LAX-SIN which SG has to use a ULH 345 for.
Joeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2199 times:
Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 15): UA used the 747 to AKL from 1986 when they started AKL to at least 2001 or 2002. The majority of the time AKL was served it was a 747.
I flew SYD-AKL in about 1990, it was a 747-400 and my family of 4 were the only ones in the upper deck, it was awesome!! We then flew AKL-HNL a week later, that was on a 747SP I believe and that flight was pretty full.
On a side note, we arrived HNL and we were placed in a huge room without food and held there for customs processing. We literally spent 8-10 hours in this room waiting for customs with several thousand other people, extremely hot, crowded, so crowded you couldn't even find a place to sit on the floor...it was the worst customs experience of my life by far!!! I will NEVER enter via HNL ever again!
sunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3954 posts, RR: 4 Reply 42, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2027 times:
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 36): BTW, does the 788 have the legs for IAH-SYD return year round? There's always this option if NZ initiate the AKL-IAH route themselves.
I saw a flight plan from that put the airways distance at ~ 7500nm and a flight time at 16hr 09m. That is an ESAD of ~ 7800nm. A 789 should be able to do it with a bit over 30t of payload which if set up for 280-passengers would be max. passenger plus a bit. SYD can present problems with the need for more than usual diversion fuel reserves from time to time.
Quoting sweair (Reply 39): What routes will the NZ 789s fly?
It is expected that they will be introduced on the Asian routes with ~ 300 seats replacing the 77E and the 763. There had been mention of a 250-seater version which may be a possibility for long haul.
PA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1983 times:
Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 15): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
UA was using the 772 on LAX-AKL, not the 744, when they dropped the route in March 2003.
UA used the 747 to AKL from 1986 when they started AKL to at least 2001 or 2002. The majority of the time AKL was served it was a 747.
The 744 flights were LAX-AKL-MEL, so had LAX-AKL and LAX-MEL pax. The 772 flights were LAX-AKL only.
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2167 posts, RR: 4 Reply 44, posted (9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1924 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 41): On a side note, we arrived HNL and we were placed in a huge room without food and held there for customs processing. We literally spent 8-10 hours in this room waiting for customs with several thousand other people, extremely hot, crowded, so crowded you couldn't even find a place to sit on the floor...it was the worst customs experience of my life by far!!! I will NEVER enter via HNL ever again!
Wow what a horrible experience, it's been a while 93 or 94, but my experience going through customs in HNL during the mid morning arrival bank from Asia, I breezed through in less than 30 minutes, and there were at least 5 other planes that came in just before or after our OZ 763. Maybe your arrival time had a lot to do with it, like at a time customs was closed, after all everything in Hawaii operates on Island time, except the fine folks at HA, where they are almost always on time.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SEA-KOA on DH4/738 in F, HA KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
motorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 2760 posts, RR: 10 Reply 45, posted (9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1833 times:
Quoting sweair (Reply 39): What routes will the NZ 789s fly?
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 42): It is expected that they will be introduced on the Asian routes with ~ 300 seats replacing the 77E and the 763. There had been mention of a 250-seater version which may be a possibility for long haul.
It's expected the long-haul configured version will take over AKL-YVR from the current 77E. I'm sure they'll also be analysing closely the potential for new North America AKL-IAH, South America AKL-GRU, AKL-EZE or AKL-EZE-GRU routes. Will AKL-HKG-LHR and AKL-SFO also get the new long-haul configured 789's?
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