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BA To Fly LGW-SVO?  
User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6174 times:

BA has applied for the rights to fly from LGW-Moscow SVO from Jan '13 twice daily with A320 aircraft.

EasyJet and Virgin have also applied.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/213/2059Final.pdf

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2048 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6092 times:

Interesting. So with the VS application, could BA actually be forced to hand over some of its existing frequencies, or is that about allocating the former BD frequencies?


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

So:

BA has applied for 3 daily LHR-DME, 2 daily LGW-SVO
EZY has applied for 2 daily LGW-"Moscow"
VS has applied for 2 daily LHR-DME

LHR currently has 3 daily BA LHR-DME and 2 daily BD LHR-DME, so it looks like VS is going for the BD frequencies. I don't understand the restrictions / bilateral, so not sure how the LGW applications affect the LHR applications.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6008 times:

What aircraft would Virgin use to Moscow?

User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

This won't go BA's way. It is going to be Virgin I guess.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
What aircraft would Virgin use to Moscow?

A330.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
This won't go BA's way. It is going to be Virgin I guess.

Most likely. easyJet's problem will be that they offer less capacity and may find it hard to show they can cooperate with Transaero on the route.


User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 791 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5731 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
What aircraft would Virgin use to Moscow?

The plan is for three class A333s to fly the route.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3074 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5480 times:

Surely Aeroflot are going to have offer something a little bigger than the A320 series if both BA and VS are using heavies?

Also why are BA splitting Moscow operations across two airports?

[Edited 2012-07-27 08:34:57]

User currently offlinegabrielchew From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 3035 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
Also why are BA splitting Moscow operations across two airports?

I think BA are only applying for the route to keep easyJet and Virgin off the lucrative Moscow run (which makes sense). I think easyJet has the best chance of getting the authority as they are a new UK-Russia carrier, and will offer a second London gateway, as well as helping to lower the fares on the route being the first no-frills airline. Having said that, I hope Virgin wins!



http://my.flightmemory.com/shefgab Upcoming flights: LHR-JMK,JTR-LHR-WAW,MSQ-FRA-EZE,IGR-EZE-CUN,MEX-FRA-LCY,LHR-TXL-LHR
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2811 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5342 times:
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Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 8):
I think BA are only applying for the route to keep easyJet and Virgin off the lucrative Moscow run (which makes sense). I think easyJet has the best chance of getting the authority as they are a new UK-Russia carrier, and will offer a second London gateway, as well as helping to lower the fares on the route being the first no-frills airline. Having said that, I hope Virgin wins!

The BA Gatwick application certainly is a spoiler.

SVO is not a Oneworld hub (S7 operate from DME) and Gatwick has little oneworld connections as well known.

The Russian authorities don't much care for LCC operations and neither do the Russian travelling classes.
Russians with money tend to flaunt it !

As a second UK carrier VS is logical as it feeds their US network, and by the fact they had the license previously.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5320 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
I don't understand the restrictions / bilateral, so not sure how the LGW applications affect the LHR applications.

OK - so I have now read up on it   The UK is permitted: Two designated carriers between London and Moscow, the first designated carrier 21 services per week (BA), the second designated carrier 14 services per week (currently BD).

There seems little chance of BA having its 3 daily LHR-DME removed and also little chance of BA getting designated as the second carrier for LGW-SVO. So, as everyone above has divined, it appears to be a straight competition between VS and EZY for designation as the second carrier and getting the remaining 2 daily frequencies. I can see arguments for both and no obvious victor, so it will be interesting to see who is selected.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineaamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5204 times:

How would all this tie into the BA/BD slot sales mandated by the EU?

If BA secured the 14 daily LGW-SVO rights, or U2 got LGW-SVO/DME, surely that would mean there's no longer any available capacity in the bilateral agreement with Russia with regards to LON-Moscow service. That would take out one of the options for the LHR slot allocations - since there's no allowance of a third carrier on those routes. The five slot pairs were available for Nice, Cairo, Moscow and Riyadh (and ABZ, EDI).

I suppose if VS wins the route authority, they could either find slots elsewhere on the market now, or hope to secure/purchase the five slot pairs that have to be surrendered for services including Moscow. If they were to win that package of five slot pairs, having had to use two for DME, which of the other destinations would they (be able to) open up?

Mind you, the BD slots are only available for S13 aren't they?

The deadline for applicants for the slot divestiture is coming up soon - August 23rd, 2012.


User currently onlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1317 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4926 times:

From their purchase of BD, I recall BA had to make some slots available for Transaero to operate more flights from London to Moscow.

If VS were to gain rights as the second UK carrier, I assume that it would not mean they get the BD slots as well (as rights and slots are two different things); so would have a Moscow service mean VS having to use slots from other flights/taking back slots currently leased to other carriers?


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2811 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4905 times:
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Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 12):

From their purchase of BD, I recall BA had to make some slots available for Transaero to operate more flights from London to Moscow.

Wrong its just the continuation of the two bmi slots currently in use - NO extras

If the Moscow authorities are transferred to a Gatwick operation then the requisite LHR slots can be re allocated to Aberdeen or Edinburgh - I thinks that right


User currently offlineaamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 12):
so would have a Moscow service mean VS having to use slots from other flights/taking back slots currently leased to other carriers?

That's my assumption - if they don't secure the five slot pairs set aside for services to destinations including Moscow, they would have to find slots elsewhere on the open market (purchase, lease, or use some of their own existing slots). Also, if they aim to operate beginning January 2013 as indicated, they may also need to find something in the short term at least because the indications have been that the BD slots would be used for the S13 slot season. So even if VS succeed in gaining the rights, they will have to source the slots from somewhere - BA slot divestiture aside.

As I said, I wonder if this would impact the attractiveness of the five slot pairs set aside for service to destinations including Moscow? For argument's sake, say VS don't get the Moscow rights, but do win the five slot pairs available for Nice, Cairo, Riyadh (& Moscow, EDI, ABZ). What combination of services would they likely deploy five flights to? Five daily ABZ? EDI? I'm not sure what combination of routes/frequencies would be particularly appealing in that bundle of destinations, were VS not to secure DME authority.

Would be interesting to see what happens there, if VS win five slot pairs but not DME route authority. Even if they win both, in fact.


User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
Also why are BA splitting Moscow operations across two airports?

Do not forget that Moscow is one of the biggest cities in the world, and DME to SVO in straight line is 43 miles. They are on completely opposite sides of the city. In traffic it could take 4-5-6 hours to get between the two.

Recently, LH decided to split their Moscow operations between DME and VKO, so BA wouldn't be the first.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5080 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 8):
I think easyJet has the best chance of getting the authority as they are a new UK-Russia carrier, and will offer a second London gateway, as well as helping to lower the fares on the route being the first no-frills airline.

From the applications VS would offer slightly more economy seats than Easyjet - on top of that they would also offer Premium Ecoomy, Business class and Cargo on the route. So more chance of the UK govt $$$$ through APD lol


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2811 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3397 times:
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Russia has been expanding links just about everywhere else in Europe

UK/Russia visa restrictions make the route that much more us suited to discretionary travel associated with LCC operations and flexible pricing strategies.

That said the UK/Russia bilateral air treaty is frozen due to political problems (Created elsewhere between the two nations) and is insufficient to meet the demand as it is.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4914 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 10):
There seems little chance of BA having its 3 daily LHR-DME removed

Unless BA hand in the traffic rights or don't use them (or there is a diplomatic row between Russia and the UK leading to a reduction in air service), there is no chance of them being removed

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 11):
How would all this tie into the BA/BD slot sales mandated by the EU?

It doesn't really. The slot divestiture takes no account of bilateral agreements and scarce capacity allocations, and vice versa. It would be entirely possible that for example VS win the traffic rights, but not the slots, and have to find suitable LHR slots from within their current portfolio

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 11):
I suppose if VS wins the route authority, they could either find slots elsewhere on the market now, or hope to secure/purchase the five slot pairs that have to be surrendered for services including Moscow. If they were to win that package of five slot pairs, having had to use two for DME, which of the other destinations would they (be able to) open up?

It is not a package of five slot pairs. The 5 slots could be sold individually, as a package, or any other combination. It is just that these five pairs come with the same usage restrictions, just as the other seven pairs have the common restriction that they can be used for ABZ or EDI only.

Having gone through the EU document, I can't find anything to theoretically prevent the 12 slot pairs going to 12 different carriers

Quoting runway23 (Reply 5):
easyJet's problem will be that they offer less capacity and may find it hard to show they can cooperate with Transaero on the route.

Transaero or Aeroflot

"Moore said the airline was "very concious" that the bilateral agreement with Russia stipulates that easyJet would need to operate its first ever codeshare with either Aeroflot or Transaero in order to qualify for the rights."
"In an interview with The HUB last month, Tranasero’s Deputy Director General Dmitry Stolyarov, hinted at talks with BA over a codeshare on the route declaring that while the relationship with bmi had been successful “We wouldn’t actual rule out co-operating with BA either.”"
http://www.routesonline.com/news/36/...-atlantic-apply-for-moscow-rights/

I'm not sure what happens if BA win the rights and become the sole British operator on LON-MOW, but maybe SVO makes sense if they have to codeshare with Aeroflot on some flights under the UK-Russia bilateral?

[Edited 2012-08-01 15:16:28]


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