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Fokker F120?  
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2471 posts, RR: 5
Posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16517 times:

Was killing some time browsing and when I ventured onto the rekkof site, I came upon this:

http://www.rekkof.nl/

Guess the 100 and 70 are off the table?


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrucker From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 190 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16442 times:

120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys. And nothing said about pitch. Me thinks more like 105-110 seats. Alot of competition at that size. Don't see this going anywhere.

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16377 times:

I had a chat with them at Farnborough a few weeks ago. The stretch took me by surprise, apparently it was only finalised recently.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys. And nothing said about pitch. Me thinks more like 105-110 seats.

No, as the name suggests, the 120 would be a stretch with baseline seating for 120 pax plus galleys etc... The F100 can seat up to 122 pax, so the 120 would definitely be a 120-140 seat aircraft.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
Alot of competition at that size. Don't see this going anywhere.

The only real competition is the C Series, the stretch is a good move in my opinion to lift them out of the dogfight for the 70-100 seat market. The original F100 is still pretty much the lightest aircraft in its class, much lighter than an E-190. If they can hold onto that weight advantage then the F120NG with GTFs and a brand new wing has the potential to be a seriously able aircraft.

Will watch with interest.


Dan  

[Edited 2012-07-27 11:49:14]


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2471 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16247 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys. And nothing said about pitch. Me thinks more like 105-110 seats.

No, as the name suggests, the 120 would be a stretch with baseline seating for 120 pax plus galleys etc...



They're there, it's just the "cut away" view still has them blocked out. You can kinda see the rear lavs/galleys if you look closer.

Still like to know if the 70 variant is no longer being studied though.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16021 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 3):
Still like to know if the 70 variant is no longer being studied though.

The 70 and 100 have both apparently been dropped in favor of the 120.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1159 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15479 times:
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Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):

The 70 and 100 have both apparently been dropped in favor of the 120.

Will the Fokker F120 have leading edge slats? Both the F70 and the F100 do not. Many pilots do not like the lack of leading edge slats.   

[Edited 2012-07-27 18:50:28]


Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7311 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15449 times:

How serious is this relaunch?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5126 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15214 times:

I would love to see them come back!


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7311 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15139 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 6):
Will the Fokker F120 have leading edge slats?

Please explain what Leading Edge slats are for...



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14345 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
If they can hold onto that weight advantage then the F120NG with GTFs and a brand new wing has the potential to be a seriously able aircraft.

I was surprised by this move my self. The GTF is a good call in my opinion. The company behind Next Generation Aircraft is a strong company. It should be competitive on short haul routes compared to the E-jet and CSeries.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14300 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 9):
Please explain what Leading Edge slats are for...

Allows an aircraft to increase it's angle of attack, thus allowing lower approach speeds.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineDrColenzo From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2012, 144 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13692 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):

How serious is this relaunch?

This is my main question, too.

I can see the logic of using an existing, although out-of-production for the past 16 years, airframe and updating it with 21st century technology if only to produce a model cheaper to develop than a more modern, clean sheet design.

However, the big thing is the overall Total Factor Productivity (TFP) for the manufacturer, (i.e. is it cheaper to produce and therefore sell at a profit in comparison to other models) and the for the airline (i.e. will it be cheaper to purchase and run than a competitor aircraft).

I'm sceptical, to be honest but I would love to be proven wrong.


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13657 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 9):

Please explain what Leading Edge slats are for...
Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):

Allows an aircraft to increase it's angle of attack, thus allowing lower approach speeds.

... and in some aircraft are part of the flight envelope protection system, so that when a critical AOA is approached, automatic slat extension is initiated.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineDrColenzo From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2012, 144 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12905 times:

Surely addin in the slats would increase the development costs?

User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1940 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12892 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 6):
How serious is this relaunch?

They have been granted a loan by the Dutch Government last year and are currently refitting the old Fokker 100 prototype (PH-MKH) to NG-standards at Woensdrecht Air Base. So, there is some movement, although slow. The change to the F120 is very recently after new market research. The F70 is not out of the window, but will probably follow the F120.

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2471 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12188 times:

Looks as though the F120 is only about two feet longer than the F100. Guess they just did some tweaking of the F100NG with a rebranding. If the F70 goes through the same thing, wonder if it will be renamed the F80?


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12186 times:

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 13):
Surely addin in the slats would increase the development costs?

Most definitely, but it's rather a small investment compared to other systems which would give the aircraft better stall and slow flight characteristics. After all, it's just a bent surface that extends from the leading edge of the wings. Quite a simple tool, yet very effective.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 731 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12091 times:

Lengthening the fuselage by 2 feets will not allow 20 additional passengers with the same comfort. And Rekkof will not have the billion dollars needed to launch this aircraft.

User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12029 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Looks as though the F120 is only about two feet longer than the F100. Guess they just did some tweaking of the F100NG with a rebranding. If the F70 goes through the same thing, wonder if it will be renamed the F80?

Good thinking. Maybe they will even call it an F90 to get it as close to 100 passengers as possible without exceeding it? There would be 30 seats between a 90 seat F90 and a 120 seat F120. Just like the old F70 and F100.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineA318 From Bahamas, joined Jan 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12029 times:

Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys

Click the 'service areas' link under the 'cabin' drop down menu. Seek and you shall find!



Welcome aboard!
User currently offlineTrucker From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 190 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11968 times:

OK, I'll concede the 120 seats. But with 120 seats that brings it into competition with both the 319 and 7NG, each of which have 130 some seats. And there'll be a new version of each of those planes at some point. And the E195 is in the 110-120 seat range. So along with the CS300 that's alot of competition. Given that the CS300 is struggling for orders(IMO) I don't see this F120 ever happening. It kind of reminds me of the 717 and that didn't work very well.

User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11574 times:

Quoting Trucker (Reply 20):
But with 120 seats that brings it into competition with both the 319 and 7NG, each of which have 130 some seats. And there'll be a new version of each of those planes at some point. And the E195 is in the 110-120 seat range. So along with the CS300 that's alot of competition. Given that the CS300 is struggling for orders(IMO) I don't see this F120 ever happening.

What will the F120 have to offer that the competition can't match?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11719 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11383 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 5):
Will the Fokker F120 have leading edge slats? Both the F70 and the F100 do not. Many pilots do not like the lack of leading edge slats.

Pass, but it apparently has a completely new wing - so they may have gone down this route.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 6):
How serious is this relaunch?

Very, that much is evident.

Quoting oykie (Reply 9):
I was surprised by this move my self. The GTF is a good call in my opinion. The company behind Next Generation Aircraft is a strong company. It should be competitive on short haul routes compared to the E-jet and CSeries.

To me the GTF is essential, otherwise they would have been a generation behind their competition.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 13):
Surely addin in the slats would increase the development costs?

As they are already redesigning the wing, perhaps not.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Looks as though the F120 is only about two feet longer than the F100. Guess they just did some tweaking of the F100NG with a rebranding.

Bit more than tweaking, but the short extra length is interesting.

Quoting queb (Reply 17):

Lengthening the fuselage by 2 feets will not allow 20 additional passengers with the same comfort.

I think, on any aircraft, that depends on the seats themselves. If you look at how much less space the newer generation of seats take up compared to the chunky seats on current Fokkers, then I can easily see how they can accommodate the extra seats with the same legroom.

Quoting queb (Reply 17):
And Rekkof will not have the billion dollars needed to launch this aircraft.

if it's an investable project then that won't be an issue.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 20):
OK, I'll concede the 120 seats. But with 120 seats that brings it into competition with both the 319 and 7NG, each of which have 130 some seats. And there'll be a new version of each of those planes at some point. And the E195 is in the 110-120 seat range. So along with the CS300 that's alot of competition

The OEW of a F100 is 16 tonnes lighter than that of an A319 and 13 tonnes lighter than a 73G. Yes the stretch will make the F120 heavier, but I don't see the next generation of the 319 and 73G significantly closing this gap. So whilst they share a similar seat capacity they are very different aircraft appealing to different markets, and competition where it does exist seems to be quite a one way street with the larger RJs taking market share from Airbus and Boeing.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 20):
Given that the CS300 is struggling for orders(IMO)

No doubt it's not as rosy as Bombardier hoped, but I think that is more a reflection of the project's background, with airlines being reluctant to commit second time around, especially whilst it's still a paper plane. Still the CS300 has 72 orders and something like 40 options compared to the A319NEO's 26 firm and zero commitments/options, which says a lot. I don't know how many the 73G MAX has though?


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 731 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 10809 times:

The F120 will be a E195, CS100, 736, A318, 717 size aircraft. The F100 cabin length is 1,5 m (5 feets) shorter than CS100. A 2 feets stretch will not change the capacity (maybe one more row). Slimmer seats is not a real advantage, since they can be fitted in every aircraft.

[Edited 2012-07-28 09:39:02]

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 731 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 10746 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
I don't know how many the 73G MAX has though?

Zero


25 Burkhard : With this sentense most here can agree! I still love the F70 - when it approaches over my home it is 9 db more silent than a 737/A320. OK, it is ligh
26 Post contains images PlymSpotter : That surprises me, I thought they would at least have some on the books. Dan
27 Post contains images LifelinerOne : A very light frame. Cheers!
28 DrColenzo : So a little government money has arranged for a rather old jet to be updated. That is a long way from a full commercial product and production like,
29 Post contains images PlymSpotter : IIRC they announced a long time ago that at least some of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazil. Dan
30 Post contains links petertenthije : They started construction of a new Brazil plant last year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fiXwVrKbmE
31 EPA001 : I guess you mean "some parts of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazil". That is indeed the intention. I am not sure though how far progressed
32 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Yes, that is what I said. I have not heard anything about where final assembly would be. Dan
33 Post contains links KarelXWB : Final assembly is currently planned in Holland. http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=536911#p536911
34 DrColenzo : But Embraer already build a more technologically advanced competitor in Brazil that is designed for construction methods 30 years at the very least i
35 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I see where you are coming from, but I don't agree that the ERJ family is necessarily more technologically advanced. With the F120 being reasonably u
36 Burkhard : I also doubt the benefits of the new computerized production methods - the two models most advanced on this direction by A and B have not proven this
37 Post contains links queb : The 2 feets stretch must be to offset the increased weight of engines. The real problem of Rekkof is to find investors for at least a billion dollars
38 Post contains images PlymSpotter : But what if the product NG have is better than all of them - that changes things massively and doesn't appear to be an unrealistic outcome of this de
39 queb : F120NG will have the range and the speed of a regional jet so it must be compare with regional jet even if they are smaller (CRJ1000, E-190/195, SSJ10
40 Trucker : I gotta ask why on this. I think most people would prefer the 190. Aren't F100 seats only 17" wide vs. 18" on the Ejets. And then there's the middle
41 Post contains images queb : From Reffof website about F120NG performance : Mach 0,74 ??????
42 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Compared against perhaps, but in general I would not say they will directly compete. The F120 would have a quarter to third more seats than some of t
43 DrColenzo : In all honesty? I tend to feel the flight more on an E-Jet than a Fokker, which is a known quality of the E-Jet and newer models developed with Compu
44 queb : Standard LRC for this size aircraft is .78 (Cseries, CRJ, E-jet, SSJ, MRJ etc) and maximum speed is about .82/.83
45 aerokiwi : Oh look, another Rekkof thread. Won't happen. Cue someone with a dutch flag next to their name telling me the design stages are "very advanced' with "
46 neutrino : How much is the amount granted/promised? I could not recall the figure but in the back of my atrophying mind it was just a tiny fraction of the at le
47 JoeCanuck : I'm not sure where their supposedly huge advantages will come from. They are claiming a 3000kg weight advantage over the E jets but they are doing sig
48 DrColenzo : There are less harsh ways of saying this....however, you do have a point. I read $20 million dollars to update the original F-100 prototype, but I ag
49 Post contains images PlymSpotter : The speed is lower indeed. But I am intrigued as to why you consider that the F120NG would be the same size as some of the others you list? I agree r
50 Post contains links and images queb : Bombardier has spent about $300 millions (in 2007 dollars) to develop the CRJ1000 from an existing aircraft (CRJ900) and using an existing assembly li
51 PPVRA : Lighter frame it may have, but you are also buying "less airplane" in terms of other performance specifications, like MTOW and range. So not exactly a
52 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Fokker went bust because it developed three new planes in a quick succession; the F50, F100 and F70. Their debt load was just too much and the compan
53 frigatebird : Alitalia did order 15 F70s, of which 5 had been delivered when Fokker went bust. It appeared however, that those were sold at a price below cost, so
54 Semaex : It might just be the right airplane for the right market. After all, some of the RJs we see today are much more over-engeneered than they need to be.
55 queb : Rekkof's proposal is an F100 (based on the original design of the 70s) with new engine, new avionics and winglets. The 737 is completely different fr
56 DALCE : I heard Commodore is looking into entering the tablet-market with a revamped Commodore 64-NG *sigh*
57 Burkhard : Fokker went under because (among other reasons) the Daimler management that had taken over over VFW-Fokker had no idea about the aircraft industry...
58 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Well that was the projected total project cost at launch in 2007. That's around €250m today, so €150m less than the development costs estimated f
59 JRadier : This would be more like Sony overhauling the PS3... oh wait, they are actually doing that!
60 richierich : Looks like a B717 to me! I'd love to see a new Fokker with 120 seats but I just don't think there is much of a market there. Between Bombardier and Em
61 JoeCanuck : A stretch will not be an issue but the new wing and new engines will. The GTF's will be significantly heavier than the Tays, meaning more than just th
62 Cabincrewifly : If it went ahead, they'd be able to jump back in with their already recognisable brand name. Embraer beware
63 PPVRA : Who is going to invest that kind of money in an ageing aircraft? We all know engine upgrades have been deemed too expensive by the airlines. Let alon
64 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I'm not quite sure what you mean there, quoting that section? Dan
65 Semaex : I'm sure you could have said the exact same thing back in 1988 when some lunatic proposed a revised 737...
66 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Or the Do-228, ARJ-21 and Twotter. The saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' comes to mind. Dan
67 PPVRA : Who proposed converting existing 737s? Better yet, who actually converted an existing 737?
68 Post contains images PlymSpotter : OK, I think I get what you meant now regarding your first comment. This approach is for the F120 prototype only, and the money had already been sourc
69 Viscount724 : And although the CRJ1000 was basically a 9 foot stretch of the CRJ900 it went into service almost a year late due to some certification issues. Every
70 JRadier : And IIRC Fokker did this with the F50 prototype by converting an F27.
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