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Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?  
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16093 times:

As an outsider to the whole North American aviation scene, the whole UA/CO merger seems to be a disaster in comparison to the way that DL/NW were merged.

The New Delta seems to have come through the merger refreshed, whilst all I read about here is the disaster that is happening around the UA/CO merger.

I understand that it is still early days for both, but what are the key reasons for the seemingly difficult merger of UA/CO, or is it just all petty a.net rivalrys.


The world is really getting smaller these days
114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDTWHKG From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16083 times:

If I understand correctly, UA and CO used different GDSs (Apollo vs. SHARES), and needed to convert everything into SHARES on 3/3, which created LOTS of issues. DL and NW used the same GDS (Worldspan) pre-merger and the task was much simpler.

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13702 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15899 times:
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Isn't it premature to call the UA/CO merger a failure? While it hasn't gone anywhere near as smoothly as DL/NW, it's still a promising work in progress.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1879 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15858 times:

I think part of it might have had to do with the fact that DL/NW went into CH11 together and they came out together.

User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15809 times:

From my view, it was the whole "merger of equals" thing that ruined CO/UA. With that whole mantra, there is way too much give and take between the entities. DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals". The airline industry is a dog-eat-dog industry and when dealing with the worlds largest airlines, one should not p*ssyfoot around.


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineCoairman From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15759 times:

UA will get better because of:

-Adding more spare pmua aircraft to the fleet to increase reliability. Pmua will have up to 15 spare aircraft.. This is most critical to improving customer service and employee morale.

-Padding the schedule

-Adding time for crew connections

-Hiring more MX personnel

-Focus on touch time and overnight MX

-Staff becomes more comfortable and proficient with new policies, procedures and new software.

It takes time to gel into a well tuned operation. I think UA is 100% committed to running a very good airline.



Patience Can Be A Virtue.
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15527 times:

I don't agree with the premise that the merger has been a disaster. More problems than delta? Sure. Anyone wants to see a disaster in the making it is WN and FL. That merger has revealed a lot of WN problems that were hidden.

User currently onlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15352 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
From my view, it was the whole "merger of equals" thing that ruined CO/UA. With that whole mantra, there is way too much give and take between the entities. DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals". The airline industry is a dog-eat-dog industry and when dealing with the worlds largest airlines, one should not p*ssyfoot around.

You are kidding of course, since the above never happened, but it does make a good story.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15349 times:

Quoting DTWHKG (Reply 1):
If I understand correctly, UA and CO used different GDSs (Apollo vs. SHARES), and needed to convert everything into SHARES on 3/3, which created LOTS of issues. DL and NW used the same GDS (Worldspan) pre-merger and the task was much simpler.

Another reason the DL/NW merger went smoother:

DL president Richard Anderson was previously the president of NW, and knew NW's strengths and weaknesses, and the strengths and weaknesses of NW's top managers, as well as anyone at NW. Anderson was also on good terms with the politicians and key corporate accounts in NW's hub cities.

Even though I'm not one of the DL fanboys on ANet, I still feel the NW/DL merger was the smoothest airline merger ever. DL did almost everything perfectly.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinetermbewr From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15192 times:

From a customer's perspective, the only negative feedback I've heard about the UA/CO merger has been in reference to the aircraft. The CO fleet is quite young and the interiors are generally in very good condition. Also, they had been installing DirecTV and AVOD etc. When the UA aircraft became intergrated into the schedules, I did hear comments from several CO passengers how the UA aircraft seemed dated and in shabby condition.

With regard to the DL/NW merger, I don't recall either carrier's aircraft being in particularly good condition when the merger occured. That alone probably minimized quite a bit of customer dissatisfaction.


User currently offlineplaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1251 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15137 times:

It helps to remember that a vast majority of what you read on a.net is opinion.


I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15055 times:

What was it that CO CEO Kellner saw that made him walk away from a UA/CO merger?

Yet Smisek jumped at the chance...



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1618 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15032 times:

DL/NWA was a well planned operation and the upper management got everyone on board with it by offering carrots. The pilots are who I know best and even the most grumpy NWA pilots have said it worked pretty well for them. They grudgingly admit it. That says it was probably a pretty good thing for them because pilots don't like quantum changes like that very much.

The reason it worked is that the employees were part of it from the outset and the employees of United/CO I know say that this has not been the case in their merger.



smrtrthnu
User currently onlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14960 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 14):
CEO. Bastard....Bastian...sorry ( ) is the president

Is that supposed to be humorous


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2349 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14929 times:

From a branding perspective DL also wins....They simultaneously re-branded MSP, MEM and DTW overnight in March 2009 to DL pretty smoothly. With United hubs they didnt do them all at the same time, have they all been totally re-braaded yet? I was at Ohare last fall and the gates had been re-branded to the globe logo, but the logo's on the outside of the jet bridges were still the tulip logo. They should have done their best to re-brand the hub airports to the new globe logo as fast as they could, the branding just seems confusing...are we the tulip or globe? They should have done a better job at that.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14875 times:

I don't understand, $545 million dollar profit ($339 million after special charges) this past qtr and the merger is a failure?

Technical issues, yes, insurmountable no.

Difference in product offering between CO and UA fleets, yes, will be corrected with time.

Labor issues, particularly with the pilots, absolutely. Let's see what they can work out.

But again take away the special items and this past qtr UA in the midst of these merger hiccups are just as profitable as DL. That bodes well for UA going forward as they resolve their merger issues.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14851 times:

"Isn't it premature to call the UA/CO merger a failure? While it hasn't gone anywhere near as smoothly as DL/NW, it's still a promising work in progress."

Depends what you define as a failure.

DL/NW did a much better job in a much quicker timeframe.

UA/CO have had more hiccups. As several have pointed out, NW and DL both went into it a little happier and both saw the glass as half full.
I had a CO guy on the jumpseat last week and he introduced himself as CO now UA with a tone that made me ask "how is it going." His answer was a flight-long response that is summed up best as "f**king disaster." Now that's just his point of view...but his glass is half empty.


This all pales in comparison to the technical disaster WN/FL is.

Truth is, these things all take time. Ten years from now UA/CO may look great and Delta may be a disaster. Stay tuned!


User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14767 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
Truth is, these things all take time. Ten years from now UA/CO may look great and Delta may be a disaster. Stay tuned!

You nailed that one!! Stasis does not exist in this industry. Remember when OH was King of the Regionals? When AMR was on the cutting edge of marketing and network innovation? When the words 'bankruptcy' and 'Delta' in the same sentence were unthinkable? When the United brand was associated with a high end product? When B-school gurus praised WN for having the perfect organizational structure and culture?


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14459 times:
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Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
From my view, it was the whole "merger of equals" thing that ruined CO/UA. With that whole mantra, there is way too much give and take between the entities. DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals". The airline industry is a dog-eat-dog industry and when dealing with the worlds largest airlines, one should not p*ssyfoot around.

As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14441 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode.

What are you basing that on?

Labor relations may have been fractious, but nowhere near the level you say they were...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 625 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14829 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
I don't understand, $545 million dollar profit ($339 million after special charges) this past qtr and the merger is a failure?

I think the problem investors have is that profits have fallen 37% YOY and UA's revenue performance lags all peers (including USAirways). It should be going in the opposite direction as all the merger "synergies" are realized.
I wouldn't call this merger a failure, but I do think Smisek & co. have clearly underestimated the resolve of their "coworkers" (as he likes to call them). I think having joint union contracts in place pre-merger, at least with pilots, would have made this whole thing a lot easier. As I said in other posts, this joint contract will either get done (and cost a lot of $) or it will drag on for years and any goodwill the employees may have had about this merger will vanish. We shall see.



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14845 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
The New Delta seems to have come through the merger refreshed, whilst all I read about here is the disaster that is happening around the UA/CO merger.

One thing DL had in its favor was US's unwanted approaches during BK rallying the troops around the DL flag.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 10):
Even though I'm not one of the DL fanboys on ANet, I still feel the NW/DL merger was the smoothest airline merger ever. DL did almost everything perfectly.

Yes, I think it's more of a matter of DL's merger going quite well rather than UA/CO being a "disaster".

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 16):
DL/NWA was a well planned operation and the upper management got everyone on board with it by offering carrots. The pilots are who I know best and even the most grumpy NWA pilots have said it worked pretty well for them. They grudgingly admit it. That says it was probably a pretty good thing for them because pilots don't like quantum changes like that very much.

Yes, it might be an oversimplification but it's clear to me that DL is using carrots and UA/CO is using sticks, so it's no surprise that things are dragging along at UA/CO.

Meanwhile, we see DL with a new pilot contract that has let them take advantage of WN's mouth-watering deal on 717s and upgauge/renew their fleet while dumping 50 seaters. It's a win/win for the airline and the mainline pilots.

Seems to me both UA/CO and US/HP can take some lessons from all of this, but I won't be holding my breath.

Seems their executive suites are locked into the current tone and direction, which is quite unfortunate.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14960 times:
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Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):
What are you basing that on?

Watching y'all fight in public.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):
Labor relations may have been fractious, but nowhere near the level you say they were...

I disagree.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14874 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets.

It's funny how often the scenario of liquidation is discussed here, but how rarely it happens to the major airlines in the US.

What's the last one we've seen? Eastern? Before that, Pan Am? Decades ago, right?

It seems the cherry picking scenario is just not favored. I suppose it's because you have no guarantee of which cherries you will get and how much they will cost.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7482 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14783 times:

My simple answer, DL/NW is working better than CO/UA because it was a merger of equals where it counts the most.
DL and NW went into Chpt.11 within months of each other thus both were in a boat taking on water and more willing to do the things necessary to survive. Yes the merger happened after they emerged from Chpt.11 but that is where the groundwork was laid.

CO and UA on the other hand are in cruise ships sailing the ocean with small leaks which the bilge pumps are containing, so each was looking at what they can get, be better at, preserve, whose the better man, all the pride stuff, definately not in survival mode, which I guess is to be expected. The players are not yet convinced that they need each other, that is the players outside of the folks doing the paperwork, like the workers.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14852 times:
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Whenever you try to combine two companies, you'll have challenges. There will always be issues and clashes in culture or procedures. The key to overcome the inevitable issues is leadership. That person with a management team that has a plan, works its ass off to execute the plan and (most importantly), give your employees input in the formulation and execution of the plan.

In short (at least from an outsider's perspective), management thought they could do things on the cheap and essentially not learn anything from how airline mergers like DL/NW worked. Everything from SHARES/APOLLO to the pilots' integration of procedures and joint contracts has been a hash.

UA thought it would be a great idea to look at things like the frequent flyer program and take the route that was better/easier/perceived as cheaper for the airline and essentially flipped off the folks who represent their highest revenue stream. What successful company does that?

UA had an opportunity to hit it out of the park. Instead, they've shot themselves in the foot time and again - alienating their employees and their customers in the process.

The merger isn't "complete" until the employee groups are unified under one contract and work together as one team. As such, the results are in yet. However, its been mind boggling how badly UA management bungled this opportunity.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14794 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):
The key to overcome the inevitable issues is leadership. That person with a management team that has a plan, works its ass off to execute the plan and (most importantly), give your employees input in the formulation and execution of the plan.

... and some expectation of better conditions once the turmoil is over, which doesn't seem to be something UA/CO's management is willing to offer. Thus, it seems to me, the incentive to bust their butts to get through the turmoil just isn't there. In fact, it's probably more likely that they put spokes into the wheels in the hope of getting management to dangle some carrots in front of them.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9668 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14950 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 15):

Wall street made it happen. It was just a matter of time. (just like AMR merging with someone is just a matter of time.) The DL/NW just started the snow ball rolling down hill. (so in other words, If smisek wouldn't do it, they would have found someone who would. It is, IMHO, the reason Jim Whitehurst isn't the CEO of Delta.)

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 22):

Both pilot groups were offered a LOT of money to get on the same page right from the start. The SLI was done on a percentile basis.

And the SLI was something Delta knew would get done because of ALPA rules. No union merging or anything like like that to f**k it up.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 22):

That said, the NW/DL merger was not w/o some heartburn. We had many of the same integration issues UA/CO is having now, albeit on a smaller scale.

The biggest thing by far was the Ramp and F/A union issues. Waiting for the vote change, then the questions on if it were legal etc. etc. Like i said, some IT stuff is still being worked out(mostly (all?) employee systems though)

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):

As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets.

uhhh.....They were no more bitter than any other airline employee that took it in BK. The AMFA screw job didn't help things.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):

I would even say that AMR has much,much more labor problems than NWA.



yep.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13436 posts, RR: 100
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14859 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):

I don't understand, $545 million dollar profit ($339 million after special charges) this past qtr and the merger is a failure?

   We're starting to see a cost benefit.   

Quoting Coairman (Reply 7):

UA will get better because of:

-Adding more spare pmua aircraft to the fleet to increase reliability. Pmua will have up to 15 spare aircraft.. This is most critical to improving customer service and employee morale.

-Padding the schedule

-Adding time for crew connections

-Hiring more MX personnel

All of those increase CASM.   I hope UA/CO is finding enough other places to cut costs.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 803 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14720 times:

As has been said, DL/NW offered financial incentives for their employees to come together and get the merger (joint CBA, seniority lists, etc) done quickly and harmoniously. UA/CO has not done that at all and thus their is increasing rankor and discontent amongst the work groups. This will prove Smisek's greatest failure and directly impacts all of the business.

User currently offlinespartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14629 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):
The merger isn't "complete" until the employee groups are unified under one contract and work together as one team.

I would argue that with this as the criteria for 'complete' or success, than US/HP is probably a dismal failure. On the other hand, the results delivered by US this past week are incredible (as are some of their operational metrics). Don't forget the systems cutover issues that plagued this pairing.....

UA/CO will sort itself out in the end, but there is no way that the integration can be viewed to be as successful as DL/NW.



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineDLD9S From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14574 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 29):
DL and NW went into Chpt.11 within months of each other

IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.



717 727 737 747 757 767 777 DC9 DC10 M80 M90 M11 L10 AB6 333 340 319 320 321 ARJ CRJ EM2 EMJ SF3 146 100 BE1...
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1993 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14526 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
As an outsider to the whole North American aviation scene, the whole UA/CO merger seems to be a disaster in comparison to the way that DL/NW were merged.

People just have short memories. It wasn't long ago that DL was near the top of the pack is all the wrong categories. And the so-called "merger"? Well, that's not so hard to accomplish when there's very little "merging". NW was much smaller than DL. The employees couldn't put up an effective roadblock. Operationally it was usually the Delta way or the highway, whether you did it better or not. And that's all under the hood. When I see the combined UA, I see parts of UA here and parts of CO there. NW is totally gone from a passenger's perspective.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals".

Really that's a pretty fair summation.


User currently offlinebriguy1974 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14432 times:

I think you are crazy to think that the post delta merger is a stronger carrier than the post united merger. The issue is one thing and one thing only. The United work force is extremely disenchanted. But the synrgies routs, fleets advantage United.

User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14274 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 2):
In my opinion...

PMUA was a mess. Everyone was unhappy at United -- flight attendants, ground, flight crew, regional airlines, etc. They couldn't turn a profit and they were quickly headed for Chapter 7. Smisek was deeply unpopular at Continental, had declining revenues, and did the dumbest thing on earth to save his ass, get into bed with United. Not only did Smisek get into bed with a struggling UA, he acceded to their ridiculous demands like moving out of Houston for Wacker.

Ideally, UA should've been liquidated, and CO (and DL, and maybe AA) would've been there to pick up the pieces with the help of several investment banks.

I am sorry, but this was no where near reality, I dont know how you got UA was headed for Chapter 7, UA was VERY profitable!

Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
You may want to check that fact again....UA was actually outperforming CO financially and operationally prior to the merger. They were in no danger of going away....

     

Quoting termbewr (Reply 12):
I did hear comments from several CO passengers how the UA aircraft seemed dated and in shabby condition.

Which I just find amusing, as UA has great aircraft in great condition, CO had the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet, the 735

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 15):
What was it that CO CEO Kellner saw that made him walk away from a UA/CO merger?

Yet Smisek jumped at the chance...

Could it be oil prices? Not sure, but I think Kellner was ready to retire and just wanted to keep status quo for a bit.

-m

  


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14183 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
It wasn't long ago that DL was near the top of the pack is all the wrong categories.

So what? It wasn't all that long BEFORE that DL was at the top or near it in all the RIGHT categories. Really has NO bearing on this discussion. I think you just used it as another opportunity to slam DL, AGAIN. Anyway, to me, this has all the earmarks of a "merger", no matter what you may think. DL & NW merged routes, fleets, work groups, etc. Just because processes weren't merged does not keep it from being a merger.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
DL, from my understanding, came to NW and said, "This is happening, it is gonna be DL, and this, this, and that will happen. We are willing to work with you, but if you don't like it, there's the door." DL came with more force to NW rather than CO and UA being "equals".

Really that's a pretty fair summation.

Actually, it's not. There are any number of procedures (that may or may not be apparent to the pax) that are some of DL, some of NW. Besides, think of it, this way.............say DL has 20,000 ACS employees and NW has 10,000........does it make more sense, training wise, to retrain those 20K or the 10K? For expediency's sake and to make things smoother (although it may not seem like it) it's probably better to retrain the smaller group and gradually, over time, find processes from either carrier that might work better.

Quoting briguy1974 (Reply 38):
The United work force is extremely disenchanted.

Were you even on A.net during the representation elections at DL?  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14156 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets

Wrong. I have two differenct perspectives and they both disagree with yours. My older brother is an ex-NW A320 FO and my wife is Platinum Elite on NW/Delta. Things are never perfect, but they both agree that things went quite smoothly.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14170 times:
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Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 39):
Which I just find amusing, as UA has great aircraft in great condition, CO had the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet, the 735

How many 735's are in the fleet? What is the average age of the CO fleet compared to UA?

While its true UA was moving up in terms of its performance post bankruptcy, we've received solid information on this forum about the state of many sUA aircraft in terms of deferred maintenance etc. Post merger, UA announced refurbishments to its 319/320's, brought in their 757's for catch up maintenance and have dealt with issues with dispatch reliability across both fleets. This resulted in UA finally acknowledging the maintenance issues and raising the number of spares to deal with a higher level of maintenance necessary when you utilize the frames at a much higher rate.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13988 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 27):
Watching y'all fight in public.

???

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 27):
I disagree.

...Which you're absolutely free to do. Just know that my perspective is from being on the inside...

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 32):
The biggest thing by far was the Ramp and F/A union issues.

Still are, IMO.



Quote:
Waiting for the vote change, then the questions on if it were legal etc. etc. Like i said, some IT stuff is still being worked out(mostly (all?) employee systems though)

All employee related "stuff" took until this past 5/1 to complete. Even at that, PMNW ACS still get paid on a different cycle than PMDL. Also, there are still lots of headaches/heartburn with systems like MPS (employee payroll), and operational systems the customer will never see.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 34):
As has been said, DL/NW offered financial incentives for their employees to come together and get the merger (joint CBA, seniority lists, etc) done quickly and harmoniously.

Pilots only. Other groups received financial incentives in the form of stock like they did, but it was nowhere near as high of an amount.

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 36):
IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.

Indeed.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
Operationally it was usually the Delta way or the highway, whether you did it better or not.

What's frustrating to me is that the theory espoused was "best from each side," while the theory in use was closer to what you note. Outside of our (NW) deicing program, I can't think of any systems that were retained in whole.

Now we see some of the legacy NW stuff coming back into the fold, and it's being touted as an innovation, as opposed to a return to what ultimately works best...

Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
.does it make more sense, training wise, to retrain those 20K or the 10K?

It does if the end run is to adopt whichever practice is the most beneficial... Certainly more so when compared to just training the smaller group, only to have to eventually train the larger group if a system is adopted later on.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13909 times:

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 36):
IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.

Yes, but both were triggered by changes to the bankruptcy law coming into effect, largely because of the way UA abused the bankruptcy process.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 37):
NW is totally gone from a passenger's perspective.

That's what was supposed to happen, right?

It's better than being on a UA branded plane and having the crew state they are a Continental crew, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13888 times:

It was more of a merger than the premerger DL fanboys thought. I remember reading that all the 744s and 330s were going to ATL and JFK and DTW was going to be a backwater with just a few 763s. It didn't quite work out that way, did it?

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13818 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 43):
Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
.does it make more sense, training wise, to retrain those 20K or the 10K?

It does if the end run is to adopt whichever practice is the most beneficial... Certainly more so when compared to just training the smaller group, only to have to eventually train the larger group if a system is adopted later on.

Even if you have to eventually retrain the larger group, later, it doesn't have to be done quickly, under the pressure of getting the two operations working together. Worked with WA......no reason it can't work, now.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13613 times:

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 36):

IIRC, it was within hours of each other. That alone got the merger rumors floating long before it actually happened.

Both filed September 15, 2005

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/14/news/fortune500/bankruptcy_airlines/


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12930 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 46):
Even if you have to eventually retrain the larger group, later, it doesn't have to be done quickly, under the pressure of getting the two operations working together. Worked with WA......no reason it can't work, now.

My point was pick the best option for both (regardless of size), then take the time to train correctly everyone once. Sort of a "measure twice, cut once" mindset as opposed to the "cut a couple times...go back and measure...cut a little bit... change the drawing...measure again..." method...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9668 posts, RR: 14
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12957 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 50):

747 is back in Atlanta FWIW. (and if Brazil would play nice it would be here for two routes)

Quoting Flighty (Reply 51):
It determines which corporate culture and critical mass of management employees survives and prevails.

Not really. Culture can be changed.
and HQ location has little to deal with anything thats wrong with UA.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 52):

My point was pick the best option for both (regardless of size), then take the time to train correctly everyone once. Sort of a "measure twice, cut once" mindset as opposed to the "cut a couple times...go back and measure...cut a little bit... change the drawing...measure again..." method...

        



yep.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12859 times:
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Quoting johns624 (Reply 41):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):As a *former* NWA frequent flyer, I can attest that their labor problems were so bad the whole airline was ready to implode. It was charitable of DL to not dissolve NW and cherry-pick its (alleged) assets

Wrong. I have two differenct perspectives and they both disagree with yours. My older brother is an ex-NW A320 FO and my wife is Platinum Elite on NW/Delta. Things are never perfect, but they both agree that things went quite smoothly.

Of course, you're speaking in the present tense, and I'm speaking in the past tense. I stopped flying NWA during the 2005 strike and have since become a United 1-K. Because of that, I personally have nothng invested defending either DL or NW.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12825 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 52):
My point was pick the best option for both (regardless of size), then take the time to train correctly everyone once. Sort of a "measure twice, cut once" mindset as opposed to the "cut a couple times...go back and measure...cut a little bit... change the drawing...measure again..." method...

That would be ok, if on day one, you instantly KNEW which process was best. Now, I KNOW you think that everything you did was better and I'm sure some of it was, but that's not going to work. Hasn't worked in the two mergers and one acquisition I was involved in and I'm sure this one's not much different. I'm sure I would get the same arguments from DL people if things had ALL been switched over to NW's methods. That still wouldn't make it right. NW's & DL's methods may be different and some MAY even be better, but I'd be willing to bet that most of this is just because the processes are different than you're used to and nothing more.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12824 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
Well stated. UA was matted down with bureaucracy and continues to be. They didn't completely heal their business model. Too arrogant. Meanwhile, the finest US airline by nearly all opinions (Continental) got killed.

How can you and others keep saying that?
The paint job is CO, the "brand" is CO with the United name.
Majority of management is CO.
Majority of policies and procedures (save MRO) is CO.
The whole RES system is CO.
The Operating Certificate is CO!

This company is majority CO with a new name. And a few pieces of UA here and there.

One thing everyone agrees with; this new entity so far is WORSE than CO or UA on both sides.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12784 times:

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 56):
How can you and others keep saying that?
The paint job is CO, the "brand" is CO with the United name.
Majority of management is CO.
Majority of policies and procedures (save MRO) is CO.
The whole RES system is CO.
The Operating Certificate is CO!

This company is majority CO with a new name. And a few pieces of UA here and there.

If this is all true, maybe CO wasn't as perfect as everyone makes them out to be.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9668 posts, RR: 14
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12607 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 54):

So your talking about an airline during a strike and in BK or close to it? And you think that is even close to BK exit and merger? uh ok.

you know, During BK DALPA almost walked. I guess Delta has crappy employee relations too?  



yep.
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12300 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 55):
That would be ok, if on day one, you instantly KNEW which process was best.

I don't think you need to know "instantly." That's ostensibly what people from both sides should've been brought together to sort out, especially during the window when we were running separate operations & systems...

Quote:
Now, I KNOW you think that everything you did was better...

Negative. This has nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with things like functionality & operational efficiency.

For the record, I happen to really like using ALIS, which debunks your theory. So there.  
Quote:
NW's & DL's methods may be different and some MAY even be better, but I'd be willing to bet that most of this is just because the processes are different than you're used to and nothing more.

There will always be a tendency to prefer what one knows vs. an alternative. I had assumed that was a given when I first chimed in, and set it aside.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12205 times:

because DL was (and is) mostly non-union....

User currently offlinevgnatl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1514 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12086 times:

As others before me have said... the vast majority of comments on this forum are opinion from armchair CEOs. I wouldn't go as far as saying the CO/UA merger has been a "disaster"... disaster is a big word. There's certainly been bumps in the road, and there has been things that they should have handled better (GDS migration as an example).

GDS is a big hurdle since it's such a complicated process, and while we don't know what their planning was, they should have planned and tested more prior to the official migration. As someone who works on complex enterprise IT systems every day, the value of a robust testing plan prior to the migration is hugely important, and it just seems as if they either didn't test effectively, or made serious mistakes during the official move.

These threads really frustrate me; there will be another one next week, one the week after that... they just keep coming. They're almost as bad as the "I hate the new livery" comments that get put on every photo on the UA Facebook page. People have "their airline"... we all have a preference, and we all see good and bad things differently. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of legacy CO frequent fliers had a passionate hatred for UA (I know I did), and most of the legacy UA frequent fliers had a passionate hatred for CO. The biggest issue with the merger has been the (dare I call it "alienation") of the frequent flyer group, and the lack of consistent procedures. None of us like the new status structure (my silver status really counts for nothing), and a good chunk of the issues during the GDS migration effected frequent fliers more than most.

All that said, I'm excited to see what happens in the next 12-18 months, and while many are saying they're going to jump ship for another airline, I plan to give UA 12-18 months to really get their stuff together. If they can standardize the products, continue to innovate, and provide the level of service we saw before the merger, then they'll have my business for years. The new UA "should" be in a much better position both operationally and financially than the two pre-merger airlines, but these things take time, and it's far, far too soon to write the final chapter in the "was the merger successful" book.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently onlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11652 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 54):
Of course, you're speaking in the present tense, and I'm speaking in the past tense. I stopped flying NWA during the 2005 strike and have since become a United 1-K. Because of that, I personally have nothng invested defending either DL or NW.

So you have no idea what transpired between 2005 and the merger.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 54, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11433 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 60):

For the record, I happen to really like using ALIS, which debunks your theory. So there.

Well, I suppose it does........I don't even know what ALIS is, so I can hardly argue about it.   Many processes have changed or improved since I retired in '05........hopefully for the better. I have no illusions about DL's processes, specifically in the IT arena.......they've been trying for years to come up with a better res system......ask any longtime DL res agent about "Magellan" and I'm sure you'll get an earful, all of it bad.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineN505FX From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10949 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 2):
They couldn't turn a profit and they were quickly headed for Chapter 7.

Uh..where did you get this HORRIBLY inaccurate piece of information?


User currently offlineN505FX From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10819 times:

Quoting johns624 (Reply 41):
Things are never perfect, but they both agree that things went quite smoothly.


I wouldn't call the union/non-union rift between NW and DL cabin crew smooth. On the RARE occasion where a NW F/A would end up with a DL crew, it wasn't pretty


User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10448 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):

Wow! This statement is rediculous. Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta. I think most NW employees had been through so much with the previous company and the hope was actually that from NW employee side, Delta employees seemed to be happier and paid more so they remained positive and worked their ass off as they always had at NW. Unfortunately, atleast on the Ground Service/Gate level the synchronization of wages didnt happen until last year and with no retro pay. The airline is now non-union so everyone knows you cant bitch about it, and the industry is so squirrely im sure everyone is happy to have jobs and now be paid 'relatively' well. Delta is great today but it is Northwest w a Delta cape on.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 58, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10187 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 67):

Well, I'm sure that's what the folks at NW would like to think........however, there's enough DL people left that are in charge to make that story a little doubtful. Whatever it is, there's no way to prove it and the Big Widget still flies over the HQ in ATL. These theories are always so interesting...........being so proud, you'd think that the airline would have remained NW and not DL, but it didn't. Why not? Possibly because DL was the surviving carrier.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):

Delta survived because it was the non-union carrier..i dont think its anything to do with proud, all the NW people you just disrespected have intelligience too my friend


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9862 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 67):

If I switched the usage of DL to NW would it be correct then?

The point is, the company, no matter what company, industry, country, etc..., that approaches another company and states "it is what it is and this is going to happen, and little, to nothing, else"; that merger is going to be smoother than one that is of "equals" because there is way too much give-or-take in the later.

I didn't follow the DL/NW merger as closely as I did the CO/UA merger because the later had a much larger potential to affect me personally. Also, I was 15 when the DL/NW merger took place, so to the eyes of a 15 year old high school sophomore, DL came and told NW what's up.

[Edited 2012-07-28 19:55:51]


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9863 times:

Wow - This is a really interesting read, and thanks for all the mature comments.... I've picked some words as I've gone along to give an outsiders perspective.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 53):
Culture

The company culture is so key to a successful merger. In my outside opinion, DLNW became DL quite quickly - whilst within UA, there is very much two staff units still. The longer this continues, the harder it is to change.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 56):
the "brand" is CO with the United name

I think this was a major major mistake from day one. DLNW went with a whole new fresh brand that is modern and contemporary. The new DL also refreshed the fleet and customer service levels remarkably quickly - with customer friendly things like Flatbeds, AVOD, WIFI, and SkyPriority. These small but customer friendly changes gave DL an early win with the passenegrs - "this is the new Delta". The NW livery was the best globally, but still DLNW saw the need for something new.

The United - Continental 'brand' looks confused. It also keeps the CO brand in peoples brains. I saw a few UA pilots in a hotel the other night, and they still had the old UA brand security lanyards.... The cabin crew uniforms were really tired looking and lacking shape. Perhaps because the UA/CO merger was later, I havent seen many customer quick win changes, execept for the 757 flat beds. UACO should have gone for a totally new look with the united brand.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 67):
worked their ass off as they always had

Interesting comment - The Old CO brand slogan was 'work hard, play right' - which summed up the CO attitude.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 42):
the state of many sUA aircraft in terms of deferred maintenance etc. Post merger, UA announced refurbishments to its 319/320's, brought in their 757's for catch up maintenance and have dealt with issues with dispatch reliability across both fleets.



Perhaps UA started in a worse position in comaprison to DL/NW?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9640 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 57):
If this is all true, maybe CO wasn't as perfect as everyone makes them out to be.

As a sCO employee I will say that is true. We were not perfect, but we had employees who cared (most of the time) and made the best of what we had to deal with. One example is irops, which frankly CO sucked at but as a smaller airline was able to deal with. When you expand that same faulty program to an airline the size of the new UA you will see big problems.

There was also a huge culture shift at CO that occured before the merger with UA. When Kellner left and Smisek took over a lot of things changed. Some would even say the culture began going downhill when Kellner took over from Bethune. As more legacy services were removed employees became frustrated and were no longer proud of the airline.

So take a declining sCO culture and merge it with the sUA culture and today you see how employees feel about the new UA. As an employee I am tired of hearing about the fantasy of merger success. As a company we need to lose the talking points and acknowledge our issues. In short I think Smisek needs to be replaced with someone the employees can rally behind.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9467 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 69):

Delta survived because it was the non-union carrier..i dont think its anything to do with proud, all the NW people you just disrespected have intelligience too my friend

You want to tell me where I disrespected the NW employees any more than I saw DL and its employees disrespected on here, every day during the representation elections. So many times there were implications that DL employees were stupid and that the DL "family" culture was bogus. All I could do was shake my head, BUT, if you look it up, there were any number of times where I admonished the DL employees that they had better learn to work together or this thing would never work.

BTW, I also never said that the NW people weren't intelligent. You seem to be very skilled at putting words in my mouth.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8676 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 61):
The new DL also refreshed the fleet and customer service levels remarkably quickly - with customer friendly things like Flatbeds, AVOD, WIFI, and SkyPriority. These small but customer friendly changes gave DL an early win with the passenegrs - "this is the new Delta".

It seems to me the things you characterized as "small" are pretty expensive, yet it also seems to me the UA/CO merger is being run in a penny wise, dollar foolish fashion.

From the outside looking in, it seems the UA/CO management didn't try to fix anything as they did the integration, they just took things as-is or did as little change as possible to meet the minimum standard required.

The new livery is indeed a prime example: it's anything but refreshing. It looks like what you'd get if you asked a child to come up with a merged livery.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 65, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8631 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
the things you characterized as "small" are pretty expensive

Yes, but the customer sees the improvement in the business, and gave the impression that the new "delta" was better than the old Delta.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
The new livery is indeed a prime example: it's anything but refreshing.

It gave the staff nothing to rally around - and reminds the CO staff that they are 'still' CO. This was a big mistake. The new DL livery was a total re-start for both airlines.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
It looks like what you'd get if you asked a child to come up with a merged livery.

Or thirty seconds on photoshop. From an external perspective, the 757 that still lands all over Europe still looks like Continental. If it looks like a duck.... quacks like a duck.....



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 66, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8637 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 65):
Yes, but the customer sees the improvement in the business, and gave the impression that the new "delta" was better than the old Delta.

I agree. Unfortunately the UA/CO management seems to have gone into it with the notion of spending the least possible. I suspect their focus was/is on the short term bottom line, not in creating a great product. But as IIRC it was Bethune who said something along the lines of "if you make the pizza so cheap, no one will eat it". Seems UA/CO thinks their customer base will eat some pretty bad pizza, or they just don't seem to notice how bad the pizza is. At the least, it would have been a good idea to come out with some new artwork on the pizza boxes, but it seems they don't see the need.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7264 posts, RR: 57
Reply 67, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8610 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Unfortunately the UA/CO management seems to have gone into it with the notion of spending the least possible.

Maybe what the new United needs is a quick win - perhaps this is the 787 - although that will only be seen by a fraction of the customer base. DL's high proportion of fleet rollout of Wifi is something United needs to emulate to give the customers something to notice, alongside something like the relaunch of 'sky priority'...



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9668 posts, RR: 14
Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8612 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 59):

Delta survived because it was the non-union carrier..i dont think its anything to do with proud, all the NW people you just disrespected have intelligience too my friend

what? What does Delta being non-union have to do with anything? I guess i missed the law that says the airline name depends on what unions it has.....



yep.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8542 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 68):
What does Delta being non-union have to do with anything? I guess i missed the law that says the airline name depends on what unions it has.....

I agree. It's more about the relationship between management and labor in general rather than if labor is represented by a union or not. There are ways to achieve good relationships between management and union labor, but most management seems to let themselves get sucked into the "us versus them" type of relationship.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9668 posts, RR: 14
Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8418 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
I agree. It's more about the relationship between management and labor in general rather than if labor is represented by a union or not. There are ways to achieve good relationships between management and union labor, but most management seems to let themselves get sucked into the "us versus them" type of relationship.

And the name of the airline has nothing to do with said relationship.

and the perfect example of what not to do is American. Never seen a management team do such a terrible job with employees.



yep.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8211 times:
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Quoting johns624 (Reply 53):
So you have no idea what transpired between 2005 and the merger.

I'm a United 1-K now (that's a 100,000 frequent flyer) and don't fly DL at all.

And now that I have used my Skyteam miles, I have no proprietary reason to keep up with DL/NW shenanigans


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 72, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8149 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 72):
I'm a United 1-K now (that's a 100,000 frequent flyer) and don't fly DL at all.

And now that I have used my Skyteam miles, I have no proprietary reason to keep up with DL/NW shenanigans

Then lets hope that you become as satisfied with UA/CO as you seem to be DISSATISFIED with DL/NW (for whatever reason). I don't understand, considering you stopped flying NW (not DL) in 2005, why you seem to have switched to UA/CO instead of trying DL.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8082 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 73):
I don't understand, considering you stopped flying NW (not DL) in 2005, why you seem to have switched to UA/CO instead of trying DL.

We're going off-topic, but I used to fly CO as part of Skyteam with NW.

CO is now part of Star Alliance with UA. So the transitional element was actually Continental.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8013 times:
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I would hope no one on a airline/aircraft enthusiast forum would want UA's merger to fail. It is also true that some of these armchair CEO's have unrealistic expectations when you undertake such a big merger.

However, the manner in which the merger took place (IT integration, frequent flyer integration, branding decision) was puzzling to put it charitably. When you combine it with the fact you've had a protracted and ugly negotiating process with virtually all of the unions and no real integration of the work groups (at least until recently), it only adds to the perception that the nuts and bolts of this merger were not well thought out.

I'm certain that the DL/NW merger had tons of issues. However, their integration was quicker and the publicly perceived problems much fewer than UA. Also, DL is setting the gold standard for labor relations.

Given SFO is my closest large airport, I am hugely invested in seeing UA suceed. That being said, I've seen first hand the problems in everything from the IT problems to maintenance issues. The rank and file employees are trying but are frustrated by the manner in which the the integration was planned. They may have saved some cash initially on doing all of this on the cheap but its created a ton of issues which will take a long time to solve.

However, UA mgt will say, "hey we are making cash so obviously the general public will put up with it so it was a rousing success."

[Edited 2012-07-29 10:07:42]

User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7704 posts, RR: 27
Reply 75, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7470 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
As an outsider to the whole North American aviation scene, the whole UA/CO merger seems to be a disaster in comparison to the way that DL/NW were merged.

The New Delta seems to have come through the merger refreshed, whilst all I read about here is the disaster that is happening around the UA/CO merger.

There is a lot of opinion being thrown around on this thread and not much more than andicotal evidence being used to support their side. That being said, consider the following:

- DL is 2+ years ahead of CO/UA so it is difficult to make any sort of apples-to-apples comparison right now. DL is well past all integration related issues. CO/UA is still in the midst of it all.

- DL/NW rewrote the playbook for the definition of a successful merger with essentially zero operational-related issues. CO/UA by most accounts is doing very well.

- When DL and NW merged they were more recently just out of Ch. 11 and recovering. CO / UA have had more time outiside of bankruptcy to recover on their own. Changed the dynamics and politics somewhat.

Trust me, there was plenty of complaints around the DL and NW merger, most were trival and over time most have come to deal with the new reality.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 76, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7343 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 75):
Trust me, there was plenty of complaints around the DL and NW merger, most were trival and over time most have come to deal with the new reality.

There are always SOME glitches in any merger. In the DL/WA merger, it took a Supreme Court justice (Sandra Day OConnor) to overturn a circuit court ruling to allow the merger to go thru, so while it shows that the official merger was on April 1, 1987, the actual full day of ops was on the 2nd. And on that day, we had our own glitches, at least at SLC. It seems that none of the paperwork that was normally transmitted directly to the gates for the flight crew (wx forecast, flight plan, release, preliminary weight and balance and final weight and balance, was being transmitted. Until it was fixed, we had to assemble the paperwork in the coordinator's office and have tug runners take it to each gate. That's how I got pulled off the ramp (I worked about 2-3 flights that day) and got reassigned to the coordinator's office. On one of those flights that I worked, I got the weirdest looks from the flight crew when I saluted them and directed them away from the gate. Apparently, WA's people didn't do that.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 77, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 75):
Trust me, there was plenty of complaints around the DL and NW merger, most were trival and over time most have come to deal with the new reality.

  

It's important, too, to remember that DL and NW had very different problems than UA and CO are having. It seems to me like DL and NW did much less crossfleeting early on, for instance, so that simplified some of the problems UA and CO are currently facing. But there would be situations prior to a single IT system where certain seats would not be for sale on both carriers' systems, which made it very difficult to buy tickets. AFAIK, UA/CO didn't have any of that.

That's not to say that one is "better" than the other. Both had problems, but they are different problems. Looking back, DL/NW was a success. But I'm not yet sure that in 2 years, we are going to look back and say UA/CO was a failure.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offline777ord From United States of America, joined May 2010, 533 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7077 times:

Quoting termbewr (Reply 9):
From a customer's perspective, the only negative feedback I've heard about the UA/CO merger has been in reference to the aircraft. The CO fleet is quite young and the interiors are generally in very good condition. Also, they had been installing DirecTV and AVOD etc. When the UA aircraft became intergrated into the schedules, I did hear comments from several CO passengers how the UA aircraft seemed dated and in shabby condition.

With regard to the DL/NW merger, I don't recall either carrier's aircraft being in particularly good condition when the merger occured. That alone probably minimized quite a bit of customer dissatisfaction.

Do know, that CO really hit it hard with repaiting and re-doing the interiors to accomodate the seat number changes to include economy Plus. Yes, UA's interiors are more dated, but are far more comfortable than CO's. I'd take a UA seat over a CO seat any day!!

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 10):
It helps to remember that a vast majority of what you read on a.net is opinion.

fact!

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Truth is, these things all take time. Ten years from now UA/CO may look great and Delta may be a disaster. Stay tuned!

Very true. Our merger is really only in it's starting out phase. I mean, just in May we brought our CO ops to the Sears Tower. So, even there we-as operations- are getting settled in and will soon be (maybe a year?) merging our operations. We need to combine numerous work contracts. And seeing how the UA side of hte house does business, and how different our side does. Change will need to come from the foundation-us- to make this happen even better. I'm a huge supporter of the airline merger. Believe me! But, there is a lot of work to be done, and a lot of the animosity is really from the senior people who cannot get over the change in their daily routine. I tell them "so quit if you don't like it. Or deal with it". Magically they deal with it! lol Some people just need to see the perspective of this all and they get in line.

I am confident that United will get her kinks out sooner rather than later and finally be a great airline once again. And I am proud to know I will be there when that day comes!  


User currently offlinetsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 79, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6691 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 21):
Yes, it might be an oversimplification but it's clear to me that DL is using carrots and UA/CO is using sticks, so it's no surprise that things are dragging along at UA/CO.

+1

CEO Smisek must be replaced. The toxic atmosphere he has created within nearly every employee workgroup is palpable, and indeed irrecoverable (short of new leadership). Managers such as Smisek seek to downplay the human element (as it relates to corporate operations). This is simply no way to run an airline.



I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 80, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 57):
Wow! This statement is rediculous. Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta.

Why do people still say this to this day?



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 81, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6618 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 57):
Wow! This statement is rediculous. Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta.

Why do people still say this to this day?

Just another myth. The logic seems ass backwards to me. If it was true, why did it remain DL and not stay NW?  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6563 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 81):

I was going to respond to the 'what do unions have to do with it staying DL over NW from above but u basically asked again so ill say..and its my opinion (and many others) but also obvious, as we see this all over our country the past 5 years..First, im sure there are other reasons..I am not a DL or NW executive so im not going to pretend i have knowledge that is so secret no one else knew LOL..but, DL and NW combined as DL brought a larger NON-UNIONIZED workforce into a workforce that was ALL-UNION and very vocal. NW had very bad negotiating with its unions and to be honest employees with NW since atleast 1993 had given not once but twice a major chunk of their salary to save the airline. Did the airline ever get around to giving back those raises that were missed? NO! I think people may have made it near where they started in 93 with the givebacks (This was under Rothmeier). Anyway, without losing people here..there were plenty of Clear reasons to be DL related to dismissing the unions and what they were owed, creating the NOn-Union airline you see today. I am pro-Union for the record..ive watched promises after promises from almost every airline executive team and when the time comes for Bonuses, voila hundreds of millions$$$, when the time comes to live up to your employees agreement to get back when the airline improved=Never happenned.. DL is doing well today with no unions, and i think they know keeping their people happy is best but overall in the this country, in almost every industry, the ability to organize and demand what you deserve is being dismantled piece by piece...this is not good for anyone, and for the country as a whole..wages are way down and wage-earners are what keep the Capitalist economy going...


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 83, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 82):

So, give me the reason, again, that it's not a myth.........I seemed to have missed it, somehow.........they still could have left it non-union (all it took was the representation elections to go their way) and still left it NW, right?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1334 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6523 times:
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I work for UAL at the Network Operations Center, The Only problems we (UA) have are a Lack of Understanding of what the ( CO) side is trying to achieve. UA has been doing it with More Automation and Co does it with more manpower.
Many of the UA systems were far superior to CO's and there weren't as many "Chiefs"!! Co has brought in a LOT of Chiefs and they would like to TELL US how it's done. And they Would, if they actually KNEW how it's done. Some of their Stuff is pretty good, Some?? Not worth a DAMN! But then again?? That's ALL they know. And they really don't want to hear any other way, (for the moment) , Suffice to say, We'll Change their ways before they change ours,
Some of their stuff is already coming undone when we ask questions that they have no answers for and had NEVER thought of.
It's my opinon that in 2 years many of them will have jumped ship and Scurried back to Houston. I personally think moving them to CHI-Town was a PLOT to weed out the weak among them. They DO have some pretty outstanding people as do WE.
UA Senior mnagement has even changed some and loosened up. Before?? They NEVER would have considered opening up the schedule with "spares". Their aim was to fly EVERY Plane Every Minute of EVERY DAY.
If an airplane went out of service for repairs?? Then "Crank Down" the inbound for the outbound until that airplane was fixed.
Then complain about it later. Trouble is? You can't do that forever. At some point the "piper has Got to be paid" and now you have 5-6 airplanes out of service because you re-routed to account for the ONE airplane. There's Been a LACK of understanding amongst the Non Maintenence side of UAL that you're going to DO the maintenence. Whether you do it NOW? or Later,,, , It's Going to get DONE!! And when it comes due? We ( in maintenece) don't care What you wanted to do. Here's what we're Going to do and you're going to have to Live with it !!. The CO side does a LOT of planning
(though I don't see their execution as any better than the UA side.) They do their maintenece as planned, When planned, and that's a good thing. The UA Side gives up airplanes "Grudgingly" at best, and Whines about it the rest of the time.
CO will hang with an airplane until Hell Freezes over rather than cancel the trip. UA will eventually cancel the trip or another trip that's less of a priority in connecting passengers . So the Philosophies NEED to be melded into common Core.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 85, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6497 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 83):
So, give me the reason, again, that it's not a myth.........I seemed to have missed it, somehow.........they still could have left it non-union (all it took was the representation elections to go their way) and still left it NW, right?

Exactly...

Unions have nothing to do with the way DL/NW set policies as far as how they transfer bags, how they handle local bags, how they time connections, a/c minimum ground times, de-icing program, IT infrastructure, RES System, Ramp loading policies and procedures, w&b, THE WAY YOU CHOCK AN A/C TIRE (yes, even this has reveted to the way DL did it), going on and on and on. It's total BS Mayor...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12844 posts, RR: 25
Reply 86, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6338 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 84):
So the Philosophies NEED to be melded into common Core.

Thanks for the interesting post!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1127 posts, RR: 3
Reply 87, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6108 times:
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The merger worked "well" between Delta and Northwest because it was well planed long before the merger. Richard Anderson left Northwest, going to United Health. He did not want to tarnish his image. Doug Stenland stuck around as the fall guy and did most of the dirty work He has left and I am sure he was well compensated. Northwest took on a useless union or association called AMFA and broke the mechanics. Both airlines had their ducks in a row and filed bankruptcy on the same day. They shed debt, high rate leases and other obligations which they wanted to eliminate.
After they both exited bankruptcy, Richard Anderson returned to run the new Delta. Key team members from Northwest were kept to join Delta executives that were to remain. They beat down and out all unions, except for two. ALPA was the largest to remain as both airlines had been represented by ALPA. There is one other small union, but I can't think the group it represents.
Delta got most of what it wants. Both MEM and CVG are a shadow of themselves. Atlanta got the headquarters and Minnesota lost just about everything else. MSP is now just a hub and Hibbing, MN still has it's reservation center. Delta got the Pacific routes of Northwest. Delta has treated it's employees fairly well for now, but that could change for the worse. Delta now uses United Heath, where Richard was, for it's medical insurance plans. I do not know who Delta used prior to the merger. I do know that compared to what Northwest had, when I was there, it is not as good or paid for by the company. They have a way of "suggesting" what the employees must do regarding health plans. When I retired, I went with the medical plan my wife's employer has. I do not have to pay any premiums for the insurance. If I would have stayed with Northwest's medical plan, it would have cost me $175 per month plus about another $100 per month for prescription medication insurance. If I would have added my wife, the cost would have doubled. From what I have heard there were more changes for the worse if I was on Delta's medical insurance plan.   


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 88, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6066 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
. Delta now uses United Heath, where Richard was, for it's medical insurance plans. I do not know who Delta used prior to the merger.

DL's medical plan is financed, in house.......United Healthcare is just the administrator, which is what it was LONG before Anderson was with United Healthcare.



Just more myths. BTW, be careful......the sky MIGHT be falling  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6007 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
There is one other small union, but I can't think the group it represents.

PAFCA= Represents the dispatchers

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
Hibbing, MN still has it's reservation center.

... For now...

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
I do not know who Delta used prior to the merger. I do know that compared to what Northwest had, when I was there, it is not as good or paid for by the company.
Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
DL's medical plan is financed, in house.......United Healthcare is just the administrator, which is what it was LONG before Anderson was with United Healthcare.

@NWAROOSTER-- I agree. I never thought I'd say I missed BCBS, but here we are.

@Mayor-- I don't speak for the man, but I took his post as referring to the premiums paid by the employee, not self funding. If that's the case, then he's correct. We're paying more now for less coverage than we were before...

Also, how long has UHC been the administrator for DL? When you say a "Long time," what does that mean? Just curious...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 90, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5994 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 89):

Also, how long has UHC been the administrator for DL? When you say a "Long time," what does that mean? Just curious...

At least since 2000, in my recollection........maybe longer.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5980 times:

Gracias...

....

....



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5986 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 85):

I dont have the exact numbers at the time but DL employees to the best of my knowledge were never union right? They definetely werent at time of merger. DL had more employees than NW that could vote..and DL employees still to this day are so certain THEIR airline gobbled up NW, they were not going to vote for unions..as a nod to DL mgmt, they were smart enough to really keep them happy up to this and for the period since. I agree with Rooster, it may go downhill soon..i hope not..i have many family and friends still there. As many of you know and feel when you work your tail off for an airline your a proud person for that airline. As the CO family feels now i cant imagine seeing their paint scheme flying around all over with the titles United on it =( NWA people were proud and dont get me wrong seeing DL survive as a great carrier is nice but it doesnt take away from how fast they painted that first 747400 and flew it to ATL to show it off..im done w the back and forth..back to CO/UA talk now


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 93, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5937 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):


I dont have the exact numbers at the time but DL employees to the best of my knowledge were never union right?

Except for the pilots and dispatchers, not since I've been involved with them (since '71) and I'm sure it was that way before that.



I really think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how DL handles its employees.........they've given how many pay raises ("restorations") in the last couple of years plus how much profit sharing?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 94, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
, it may go downhill soon..i hope not..

Why would it?

Do you keep up with the current happenings? As of right now, the employees, not management, is re-writing the HR handbook for starters. Just one of many changes and this is nothing new for DL.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 95, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5882 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 90):
At least since 2000, in my recollection........maybe longer.

FWIW, Mayor and NWAESC, UHC always took care of DL's Ruby/Gold/Diamon plans or whatever they're called. PPO was under CIGNA up until a couple years ago. It's all UHC now.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 94):

pure skeptism of airline mgmt  
I agree, after years of having high senority NW employees working side by side with lower senority (higher paid) DL employees they appear to be leveling things off. No retro pay though, a union would have made sure that happenned as its deserved. Profit sharing is a great incentive, hope that keeps up....


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 97, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 96):
No retro pay though, a union would have made sure that happenned as its deserved. Profit sharing is a great incentive, hope that keeps up....

Who's fault it that exactly? MGMT or the IAM? The argument the entire time was all or nothing. Legally, DL could have given the NW folk raises as well (the IAM did publicly say they had no issues with it) but where does it end? Give give here but not here? Align certain things but not others?

You were under contract for X so which is it?



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10600 posts, RR: 14
Reply 98, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5800 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 95):

FWIW, Mayor and NWAESC, UHC always took care of DL's Ruby/Gold/Diamon plans or whatever they're called. PPO was under CIGNA up until a couple years ago. It's all UHC now.

Depends on where you were........when they first went to an HMO program in addition to the regular DL medical program, we had a local HMO (FHP, I believe) that we could choose from in SLC. UHC didn't come along (systemwide) until later.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6839 posts, RR: 9
Reply 99, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5803 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
As the CO family feels now i cant imagine seeing their paint scheme flying around all over with the titles United on it =( NWA people were proud and dont get me wrong seeing DL survive as a great carrier is nice but it doesnt take away from how fast they painted that first 747400 and flew it to ATL to show it off..im done w the back and forth..back to CO/UA talk now

Same as UA employees losing the Saul Bass logo. It was a horrible branding decision all around. At least CO employees can be happy their logo and vast majority of their policies survived. PMUA can't say the same thing and they had to learn CO's crappy computer system as well.

I do think in the long run it will be regarded that DL and NW was a much smoother merger experience. And even now, DL is making some great moves like getting like getting contracts resolved, 717s from Air Tran (this is huge BTW -- They are going to squash WN out of ATL), buying the oil refinery in PA, getting more second hand M90s, and ditching the 50 seaters. Not to mention pulling the ex-TW 757s from AA a few years ago. I'd say they are making some great moves overall. I remember back in 2005 -- DL was not an airline you would go out of your way to fly with.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 100, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5774 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 99):
I remember back in 2005 -- DL was not an airline you would go out of your way to fly with.

Was really sad the state DL fell to. Meals were striped off of all flights under 1600 miles. For Anything ex ATL to the Caribbean, STT was the starting point for real food. I remember flying ATL-SJU and only being offered chips and fruit. They took blankets out of coach (pillows left a while before) and went to the God awful paper place mats in F and all plastic for cups and utensils.

We've come a very long way.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently onlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 101, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5763 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
I agree with Rooster, it may go downhill soon..i hope not


Since what you say is pure speculation , why not hope the sky doesn't fall, or that Delta is not taken over by Air Nairobi In rea life anything "could happen" but generally doesn't

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 96):
I agree, after years of having high seniority NW employees working side by side with lower senority (higher paid) DL employees they appear to be leveling things off



Where and when did high seniority NW employees work along side lower seniority higher paid DL employees? Not any time I can remember.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5752 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
.and DL employees still to this day are so certain THEIR airline gobbled up NW, they were not going to vote for unions..

+1

There is still SO much misinformation out there. I guess the idea of DL "saving" NW from itself makes for a better soundbite when rallying the troops...

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
As many of you know and feel when you work your tail off for an airline your a proud person for that airline.

^This^

I think DL biggest error was discounting the emotional investment people had in NW. Literally overnight, anything "red" was taboo. Heck, in some cities, the "New Day" coffee mugs were no longer allowed.  

I'll bet if you asked 100 Red Tailers which brand they felt more attached to, a good 85-90 would say NW. That's not a union issue- that's human nature. DL would've been wise to take that into account. JMHO.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 95):
FWIW, Mayor and NWAESC, UHC always took care of DL's Ruby/Gold/Diamon plans or whatever they're called. PPO was under CIGNA up until a couple years ago. It's all UHC now.

Yep, that's what they're called (and Silver, for that matter).

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 96):
No retro pay though, a union would have made sure that happenned as its deserved.

I'll take solid scope over retro...

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 99):
And even now, DL is making some great moves like getting like getting contracts resolved,

Well, contract, anyway...

Anyone know when the dispatcher's CBA becomes amendable?



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 103, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 102):

+1

There is still SO much misinformation out there. I guess the idea of DL "saving" NW from itself makes for a better soundbite when rallying the troops...

It comes from both sides NWA. I'm not that naive to think that's what happened but..

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 57):
Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta.

Was this a serious statement or meant to be tongue in cheek? I can't really tell but judging by the rebuttals given, it seems to be serious. In which case, you're reply above applies just as much to this silly statement.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7971 posts, RR: 51
Reply 104, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 102):

Hopefully the small disgruntled group of ex-NW employees can move forward soon like the bulk of the NW employees... this toxicity is no good for anyone. Can't get what you want 100% of the time



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 99):
I do think in the long run it will be regarded that DL and NW was a much smoother merger experience. And even now, DL is making some great moves like getting like getting contracts resolved, 717s from Air Tran (this is huge BTW -- They are going to squash WN out of ATL), buying the oil refinery in PA, getting more second hand M90s, and ditching the 50 seaters. Not to mention pulling the ex-TW 757s from AA a few years ago. I'd say they are making some great moves overall. I remember back in 2005 -- DL was not an airline you would go out of your way to fly with.

Given the lessons of DL/NW or US/HP, which model would you chose?

I think it's clear that Smisek has chosen the US/HP model and that frustrates many UA and CO employees - he has chosen to be combative and confrontational. I can't count the number of times I've heard from a UA or CO employee that "DL is kicking our butts."

While I still have hope for the new UA, as I have a lot of sUA and sCO friends, it seems to me that Smisek is fiddling while the (combined) airline burns.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1797 posts, RR: 3
Reply 106, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
whilst all I read about here

'Cause you're here   Come to 233 S. Wacker Dr. Totally different atmostphere, people are nice to each other and NO ONE complains, literally no one (we do joke in jest of course).

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 20):
and UA's revenue performance lags all peers

Revenue GROWTH lags, not necessarily actual RASM or PRASM figures.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 47):
One thing everyone agrees with; this new entity so far is WORSE than CO or UA on both sides.

Speak for yourself.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 62):
One example is irops, which frankly CO sucked at but as a smaller airline was able to deal with. When you expand that same faulty program to an airline the size of the new UA you will see big problems.

UA, having been in ORD/SFO were very good with IROPS, and this is one thing the switch to SHARES really hurt us with, we lost a lot of the tools that made us good at it.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 75):
DL/NW rewrote the playbook for the definition of a successful merger with essentially zero operational-related issues. CO/UA by most accounts is doing very well.

DL/NW had terrible on time their second summer, which is what is happening to UA now, (second summer). The graphs of the A:14 of UA vs DL in terms of months post-merger track almost identically it's scary.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 107, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5623 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
Hopefully the small disgruntled group of ex-NW employees can move forward soon like the bulk of the NW employees... this toxicity is no good for anyone. Can't get what you want 100% of the time

It's inaccurate (or fair) to frame a group of people looking to make things better as "disgruntled." It's also not a small group, by any measure.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5608 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 103):
Was this a serious statement or meant to be tongue in cheek? I can't really tell but judging by the rebuttals given, it seems to be serious. In which case, you're reply above applies just as much to this silly statement.

just keep flying ASA guy!


User currently onlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6839 posts, RR: 9
Reply 109, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5624 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 100):
We've come a very long way.

DL absolutely has. I remember flying AA religiously after a horrific DL experience in 2005. Then I flew DL again in 2008, and it was basically the opposite. And by 2009 they were even better and there was no point of ever wasting my time with American ever again.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 102):


I think DL biggest error was discounting the emotional investment people had in NW. Literally overnight, anything "red" was taboo. Heck, in some cities, the "New Day" coffee mugs were no longer allowed.

Which is weird, because they still sell A LOT of NW memorabilia at the DL museum.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 105):
I can't count the number of times I've heard from a UA or CO employee that "DL is kicking our butts."

Well they kind of are at the moment but that could change if/when things smooth out and synergies are fully achieved.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 106):
UA, having been in ORD/SFO were very good with IROPS, and this is one thing the switch to SHARES really hurt us with, we lost a lot of the tools that made us good at it.

You should have hung out at EWR before the merger. Less whiners but the compensation CO was given out compared to UA was complete s***. They have adopted the stingy CO model of IRROPS and SHARES certainly doesn't help anything. It took a friend of mine 15-20 minutes to get a ticket re-issued out of RDU on Sunday. The agent had a good sense of humor about it but still it's like WTF? It's just WHY would they even think about keeping SHARES? To save a few bucks? This is why Smisek needs to go.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 110, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 107):
It's also not a small group, by any measure.

Let's not open up that can of worms  Been a while since i've seen that gang at JR Cricket's giving out free beer and wings :P

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 108):
just keep flying ASA guy!

For fun, I still do! As a career, I gave that dream up a long time ago. I left that for my Dad and brother. However's Dad's now retired from CO and brother is still with ASA. 15 years with them and now a CA. His next move would be freight as he's now topped out (or near to it).



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 111, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 109):
Which is weird, because they still sell A LOT of NW memorabilia at the DL museum.

Fantastic to hear, but I was referring to things at the station(s) level.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 110):
Let's not open up that can of worms  Been a while since i've seen that gang at JR Cricket's giving out free beer and wings

It's not a union/non union issue.

Who/what/where is JR Cricket's?



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5573 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 101):
Where and when did high seniority NW employees work along side lower seniority higher paid DL employees? Not any time I can remember.

DTW and im assuming all other hub stations, and until like 4 months ago


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 113, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 111):

It's not a union/non union issue.

Who/what/where is JR Cricket's?

I apologize. What were you referring to?

And JR Cricket's is a pretty big watering hole in Atlanta. There's one down the street from the airport. One night I was off I ordered some food over the phone and went to pick it up and some guys were giving out IAM stickets and T-shirst along with all the free beer and wings you could consume. All you had to do was show your Delta ID to participate. This was in February.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 114, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 113):
I apologize. What were you referring to?

1. How assimilation was handled, and each group's respective reaction to it (and to each other).
2. How feedback about policies and procedures has been historically been handled by each repesctive group, and how each is reacting to the current method.

Quote:
And JR Cricket's is a pretty big watering hole in Atlanta. There's one down the street from the airport. One night I was off I ordered some food over the phone and went to pick it up and some guys were giving out IAM stickets and T-shirst along with all the free beer and wings you could consume. All you had to do was show your Delta ID to participate. This was in February.

Ah... I shoulda known...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
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