Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Haneda International Operating Hours  
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 13
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7296 times:

I think to remember that Haneda allowed international flights only late in the evening/early morning. Still I see plenty of flights operating throughout the day (Cathay, Korean, China Airlines...). What is the deal? No restrictions for flights to nearby destinations in Asia (Seoul, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Taipei...), but restricted hours for everything else?

How big is the international terminal anyway? Could it handle a relaxing of these restricted hours/more traffic?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3595 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7256 times:

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
How big is the international terminal anyway?

Big. You mean how many gates? Only ten, but then I believe they can also use remote stands if needed (there is a bus gate area). This is common in Japan and they do it at Narita all the time too, so the number of actual gates is not really a good indicator of size. I'm not sure how many remote stands Haneda has or how many of them can realistically be used by the international terminal (I would think some are probably pretty far away). I'm also not sure how often this is actually needed at all; when I was there, the terminal was not completely full even at peak rush hour.

Edit: Bing maps appears to show a few remote stands in use: http://binged.it/Oxg1rO

You can also compare the size of the terminal to the others by moving the map to see them - they're across the runway.

The terminal itself is not as gigantic as Haneda's other terminals, but then Haneda's other terminals may as well be the Pentagon. It's not really a fair comparison. At any other airport, the international terminal would be considered a large terminal.

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
Could it handle a relaxing of these restricted hours/more traffic?

Despite my anecdotal evidence, I think there is a limit to how much traffic any terminal can realistically handle and I would not be surprised if the Haneda international terminal was close to that. 10 gates is still 10 gates, so even with a couple open when I was there, that's still only two more flights it could handle before shuttling flights to remote stands - which seems possible, but isn't desirable for a lot of passengers, especially those from overseas. Another issue could be the customs setup; I did not see that (I was just visiting the airport for fun, not flying through it). As much of a bottleneck as that can be at Narita despite being set up as an international airport, I would not be surprised if Haneda's capacity was even far less.

I'm sure part of the reason for Haneda's slot restrictions is also to continue encouraging the use of Narita as the "real" international airport. If Haneda were really allowed to take a sizable chunk of Narita's business, Narita's going to end up in some serious trouble... and that wouldn't really be good for anyone, because Haneda definitely does not have the capacity to handle *all* of Narita's traffic. It's still in everyone's interests to keep Narita healthy and functional. So it seems they are encouraging the use of Haneda for short-distance international flights with Japanese domestic connections, while maintaining Narita as the airport for O/D long-haul flights and overseas passengers flying to Japan.

[Edited 2012-07-29 00:57:18]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineHAWAIIAN932 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7054 times:

Both HA and JL fly nonstop to Haneda from Honolulu which is probably close to 8 hours so I don't think that should be considered as a short international flight. Both flights land in the evening within a few minutes of each other so there must be a curfew of some sort or strict slot restrictions.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8252 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6914 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Haneda has crazy hours for foreign non-Asian flights, they have to arrive and leave between 2200-0700. AA has a HND to JFK flight leaving at 0650 arriving at JFK at 0625. Who arrives at JFK from Asia at sunrise ? No one until now. The only long-haul flight s arriving at JFK so early are some Middle East flights, SCL, EZE and GRU.

User currently offlineemirates202 From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6514 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):

You seem to be forgetting some European destinations that arrive in the early AM at JFK. Also, AI, before the strike used to arrive at around 6am from DEL. now they get in around 11/12.

I flew AA's JFK-HND last week, and we parked at a remote stand. It was annoying because I was in F, and they didn't even have a separate bus for F/J pax. Im not trying to sound spoiled or anything, but it was so crowded in the bus to the terminal, and it would be nice to have a seperate premium pax bus, like most other airlines do.

-ek202



Fly Emirates, Hello Tomorrow
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6396 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting emirates202 (Reply 4):
I flew AA's JFK-HND last week, and we parked at a remote stand. It was annoying because I was in F, and they didn't even have a separate bus for F/J pax. Im not trying to sound spoiled or anything, but it was so crowded in the bus to the terminal, and it would be nice to have a seperate premium pax bus, like most other airlines do.

Sounds like folks need to make choices between the convenience of HND and the fact you wind up with the masses on a bus despite paying 10x the airfare. Actually the timing of the HND to JFK flight would seem nice for a business person...work a full day, sleep and fly to NYC and arrive at the start of another business day.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3595 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5741 times:

Quoting HAWAIIAN932 (Reply 2):
Both HA and JL fly nonstop to Haneda from Honolulu which is probably close to 8 hours so I don't think that should be considered as a short international flight.

But that's also a flight that would have many Japanese domestic connections as well. That's the kind of international flight it seems Haneda wants to encourage. It is still largely a domestic airport and the "international" terminal seems largely intended to serve domestic passengers flying internationally, either from Tokyo or originating elsewhere in Japan. It does not seem like they are trying to encourage German tourists from Frankfurt or American businessmen from Chicago to fly into Haneda. They seem to be primarily trying to give Japanese passengers a more convenient option than Narita to fly out of, especially for connecting flights.

It might be a little hard to see at this size, but at the full size of this photo that I took in the terminal, it's obvious that every single passenger here is at least Asian:



And just from the conversations I heard, most of them were Japanese. Many of the businesses and shops in this area (this is the shopping area) also *only* have signs/menus in Japanese, and only have Japanese speakers on staff (we ate there - there's actually some really good food in the terminal.) So I believe this terminal is still really meant primarily for Japanese passengers who are traveling overseas, not overseas passengers coming to Japan. The latter are still "supposed" to use Narita.

[Edited 2012-07-29 12:13:24]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinedank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 876 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4574 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 6):

I would think they're not set up for domestic connections. Pure and simple tokyo destined pax. The flights in one direction or the other make connecting difficult (eg, the JFK flight leaves too early to connect to and the SFO flight arrives too late into HND to make reasonable connections. That said, the SFO flight timings are actually pretty good if your e going to Tokyo. You leave after work from SFO and arrive in time to get to your hotel and sleep before business. Coming back you also leave after work hours and arrive in the evening.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting emirates202 (Reply 4):
Also, AI, before the strike used to arrive at around 6am from DEL. now they get in around 11/12.

Correct, I believe the scheduled arrival time was around 650 or 700.

BTW, when is that supposed to go back to normal? It was supposed to on June 29, but we can all see that didn't happen.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The only long-haul flight s arriving at JFK so early are some Middle East flights, SCL, EZE and GRU.

Other than EK, which Middle Eastern arrivals are there in the AM? I'm asking out of pure curiosity because I never really paid much attention to the Middle Eastern flights.

Also, don't forget SA which arrives around 545 (645 daylight savings time)


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2939 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

HND operates similar to the perimeter rule at New York's LGA. HND cannot handle all the int'l traffic, even if all the traffic did transfer from NRT. Therefore, it only makes sense to have only short-haul int'l traffic at HND outside the curfew hours established at NRT.
The int'l terminal has only ten gates as mentioned before, but the terminal itself is no where near capacity. In fact, outside of the late evening hours, the check-in desks are rather deserted.

[quote=jfk777,reply=3]Haneda has crazy hours for foreign non-Asian flights, they have to arrive and leave between 2200-0700.
Arriving late at night or departing early in the morning on an int'l flight is not desirable but the opposite, that is departing late at night or arriving early in the morning is desirable from both a connecting perspective and efficient use of time.

Quoting emirates202 (Reply 4):
I flew AA's JFK-HND last week, and we parked at a remote stand. It was annoying because I was in F, and they didn't even have a separate bus for F/J pax. Im not trying to sound spoiled or anything, but it was so crowded in the bus to the terminal, and it would be nice to have a seperate premium pax bus, like most other airlines do.

I have never been on segregated buses for class of travel, whether it is Europe or Asia. Usually, once the first bus fills up, it goes to the terminal. In Europe, they tend not to cram all the passengers, but in Japan many people rush to the earliest buses. I suppose we are used to it because of the crammed commuter trains and buses.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8252 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3780 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting emirates202 (Reply 4):
You seem to be forgetting some European destinations that arrive in the early AM at JFK. Also, AI, before the strike used to arrive at around 6am from DEL. now they get in around 11/12.

India is NOT Europe, its Asia and its rare to arrive at JFK before 10:00 AM from Europe. There are some deep Latin America flights at sunrise and from the Middle East. Some Asian flights do arrrive in the mid morning from NRT and Seoul.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3595 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3742 times:

Quoting dank (Reply 7):
I would think they're not set up for domestic connections.

They're set up fine if you arrive during the day. You get off your international flight, hop on the monorail that's literally just outside the door of the terminal and get to T1 or T2 in a couple of minutes. The major airlines also run shuttle buses between the terminals.

I don't think they have any sort of *system* (with domestic feeders feeding international flights and vice versa), if that's what you mean, but they are obviously "set up for" domestic connections, in that Asian-originating flights are scheduled to arrive during times when there are many domestic connections available, and there are easy ways to travel between terminals. The airlines themselves provide instructions on how to do this on their web sites, so it's obviously something they've planned for.

For example, someone arriving from Hong Kong on their way to Sapporo could simply choose any one of the 40 or so flights a day from Haneda to Sapporo, whichever one departs a reasonable time after their scheduled international arrival. There's not really a need to set up a network of connections because those connecting flights already exist. Sapporo is kind of an obvious example, but what sets Haneda apart from Narita and makes it desirable as a connecting airport is that it would have connections available for many smaller domestic destinations also, whereas Narita does not.

And that would easily explain why flights like JFK-HND are relegated to weird hours, because those flights aren't going to have a lot of connections, and those passengers who are connecting are usually going to places like Osaka or other major cities. (And anyone connecting from JFK to those major destinations can usually do it through Narita just as easily; the Japanese airlines do set up actual connections to major cities for their international flights, and US airlines can also book those through codeshare agreements).

I'm sure the international terminal does get a lot of O/D traffic as well, but they're definitely taking advantage of HND's unique advantages in the availability of domestic connections in how they choose to allocate slots. They're giving the prime slots to flights that will have a largely Japanese customer base and would be most likely to have connecting passengers.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 9):
Quoting emirates202 (Reply 4):
I flew AA's JFK-HND last week, and we parked at a remote stand. It was annoying because I was in F, and they didn't even have a separate bus for F/J pax. Im not trying to sound spoiled or anything, but it was so crowded in the bus to the terminal, and it would be nice to have a seperate premium pax bus, like most other airlines do.

I have never been on segregated buses for class of travel, whether it is Europe or Asia.

Since last December LX has been using separate buses (both the regular large buses and two new 12-passenger Mercedes vans depending on passenger load) for J class passengers arriving at ZRH (inbound flights only) that park at bus stands. LX first class passengers have long had private transfers to and from the aircraft using S class Mercedes.

Excerpt from following LX press release re the J class bus transfers below:
http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/about_sw...leases/2011/Pages/pr_20111201.aspx

An exclusive Business Class bus service

SWISS Business passengers arriving in Zurich during peak hours whose flight still has to be handled at a “remote” stand away from the airport docks will also enjoy an exclusive additional service from today onwards. Immediately after arrival, they’ll find a special bus waiting to carry them quickly and promptly to the terminal building. As well as using the airport’s regular airside passenger buses, the new service is being provided with two new 12-seat Mercedes Sprinters that have been specially fitted out in the SWISS design.


User currently offlinedank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 876 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 11):
I'm sure the international terminal does get a lot of O/D traffic as well, but they're definitely taking advantage of HND's unique advantages in the availability of domestic connections in how they choose to allocate slots. They're giving the prime slots to flights that will have a largely Japanese customer base and would be most likely to have connecting passengers.

I'm sorry, I totally disagree. They are banking on Tokyo destined passengers. For example, let's take the SFO-HND flights. The flights going to Tokyo, arrive after at 22:25. This is not exactly ideal for making a domestic connection unless you want to spend a night nor does it allow regional connections to say GMP. Going to SFO is a different story. In fact, it is almost impossible to get a decent booking on JAL from SFO because the flight is a HND flight and is outside the Narita (if you want to fly to KIX, you are better off flying nonstop anyway).

JFK-HND is even worse from a connecting standpoint. The flight from JFK arrives at a similar time (22:15) which is late for connections and the flight from HND departs at 6:50 which is early to make from a connection.

There's no doubt in my mind that the long distance international flights are set up as O+D. Regional flights are a different story (HK, Korea, China), but those are more like domestic flights and can operate during more normal hours.. The hours for long haul flights are outside Narita's operating times and exist because HND is so much more convenient for getting to and from Tokyo.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3595 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting dank (Reply 13):
I'm sorry, I totally disagree. They are banking on Tokyo destined passengers. For example, let's take the SFO-HND flights.

I'm pretty sure this entire thread has gone over your head.

This is about why flights like SFO-HND and JFK-HND are scheduled at such bad times. The answer is *because* they will not have many connecting passengers. That is the entire point of every single one of my posts in here so far, and it's the answer to the question posed at the top of the thread. Prime slots are given to shorter flights with a domestic customer base that *would* be more likely to make connections.

You basically spent an entire reply vehemently disagreeing with me, when in fact you are supporting the very point I am making.

Either that or you are confusing "banking on O+D customers" with "giving foreign carriers the leftover slots". What they are clearly "banking on" is both Japanese domestic carriers and other Asian carriers flying Japanese passengers around and giving them domestic connection options. You can't say "they're clearly banking on O+D traffic, so it makes no sense that they give O+D traffic bad slots!" Well, it makes perfect sense once you realize that your entire premise is wrong. Because they're not banking on O+D. They're giving some leftover slots to O+D traffic because hey, the airport's open at 11:30PM, why not take those landing fees? But it is obvious - in fact, it's proven by the existence of this thread! - that this is not the HND international terminal's primary business model. Their primary business is Japanese passengers flying relatively short intra-Asia international flights. If it wasn't, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2939 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 14):
"giving foreign carriers the leftover slots".

It's not about foreign carriers getting the 'left-over' slots.
It's about rules pertaining to long-haul int'l flights. They are only allowed between 2200-0700.
JL & NH are not exempt from the rule either.
It just so happens that rule seemingly goes in favor of the Japanese carriers, but some of the other carriers from Asia are not complaining. At least it keeps out the LCCs from Korea, and Asiana and Korean Air have a good time at HND.


User currently offlinedank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 876 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 14):
This is about why flights like SFO-HND and JFK-HND are scheduled at such bad times. The answer is *because* they will not have many connecting passengers. That is the entire point of every single one of my posts in here so far, and it's the answer to the question posed at the top of the thread. Prime slots are given to shorter flights with a domestic customer base that *would* be more likely to make connections.

No, prime slots can't go to long distance flights because the exception to the law is that they can only operate when Narita is closed over night. Regional flights have nothing to do with the long distance flight times. You can only operate the long haul flights from 10pm until 7am when Narita is closed to traffic. You can better believe everybody and their brother would want transcontinental flights to Haneda during the day time. It's a pretty decent win win compromise. You get some long haul flights that are more convenient to Tokyo and you reduce some of limitations in movements atNarita. The regional flights are in a different category.

As for banking on O+D customers, they certainly are. If not, they wouldn't operate the flights at all. And JAL seemed to be packed to and from SFO with mostly Japanese passengers. These flights are actually not that badly timed as long as your destination is Tokyo and you don't have to connect.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
International Flights From Tokyo Haneda posted Sun Dec 14 2008 06:09:15 by Mozart
International Transit In Delhi - 3 Hours posted Thu Apr 5 2007 17:54:25 by CuriousFlyer
More International Flights From Haneda? posted Fri Aug 22 2003 20:46:23 by AMS
Ryan International 767 At MHK posted Sat Jul 28 2012 09:51:24 by mhkansan
CZ's First International A380 Destination Is LAX! posted Fri Jul 27 2012 03:32:28 by TeamInTheSky
Final Hours At Kai Tak. Video posted Thu Jul 19 2012 14:05:50 by contrails15
LH Operating For OS posted Thu Jul 19 2012 06:09:48 by LHLX
International Charters At National Airports? posted Tue Jul 17 2012 20:14:52 by aviacsa55
New International Service To IAH In 2013? posted Tue Jul 17 2012 19:39:33 by AVENSAB727
D/FW Airport Plans For International Expansion posted Tue Jul 17 2012 14:06:36 by GEsubsea