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The Decimation Of CVG!  
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14763 times:

I know that there is a post on the loss of Comair, but I think that this topic needs it's own post. The bottom line for CVG is this: Total PAX for 2006-2007, 21.5 million, versus 8.3 million for 2011-2012. This is for the year ending April 30th, not the calendar year. Regardless of which 12 month period used for comparison, the change is staggering! This data comes from the July 28/29 issue of the Wall Street Journal.

For about ten years I flew DL primarily and racked up about 800,000 miles. Flying thru CVG was always more enjoyable than ATL, just due to its smaller size and easier getting around. I interpret the data that almost 2/3 of the pax at CVG, at its peak, were connecting. Now most of the pax must be O & D.

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecaptainstefan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14742 times:

I don't know other impact it will have, but NRSAs will now often have one less option when trying weird routings to get home.


Long Live the Tulip!
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2019 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14470 times:

Actually we've been discussing CVG for quite a while now in the following thread:

CVG Updates: Concourse A And Other Misc. News (by flyguy89 Jun 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Updates and such have been talked about if you care to take a look.


User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3311 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14365 times:

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 1):
I don't know other impact it will have, but NRSAs will now often have one less option when trying weird routings to get home.

Most of Comair's flying is now based in hubs other than CVG, and Delta has already stated that they intend to have other carriers doing the flying Comair does today. Sadly, if anything, it will make non-revving to/from/thru CVG easier because the Comair crews that got forced to another base won't be commuting anymore.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14367 times:

I've always felt that some cities are not large enough, or economically important enough to be designated "Hubs". Airlines designated these cities hubs when those cities were booming, but times have changed and some of those cities have not kept up

CVG, STL, MEM, PIT are perfect examples...My guess, CLE will suffer the same fate, its just a matter of time


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14108 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):

In my mind, SLC fits in there, too. It is a large city but it never seemed like a city that was "hub" material. Isn't most of their flying in and out of there (on DL) made up of CRJs?


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14037 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
or economically important enough to be designated "Hubs". Airlines designated these cities hubs when those cities were booming, but times have changed and some of those cities have not kept up

CVG, STL, MEM, PIT are perfect examples...

I won't speak for the other cities, but Pittsburgh has never been stronger economically during the past 50 years than it is today.



FLYi
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14020 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 5):
In my mind, SLC fits in there, too. It is a large city but it never seemed like a city that was "hub" material. Isn't most of their flying in and out of there (on DL) made up of CRJs?

SLC probably isn't ideal as a typical hub city in a vacuum, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. SLC and DEN are the only viable hub locations for serving the intermountain west, with SLC also being far enough west to somewhat serve north-south flows along the west coast. Part of what sealed the fate for STL, for example, was it being almost entirely redundant with hubs like ORD, DTW, MSP, DFW and arguably MEM, CVG, and MKE (though also in weak hub cities themselves). CVG sits sandwiched between DTW and ATL, and PIT was extremely close to the east coast hubs. SLC doesn't really have that problem.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13990 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 5):
In my mind, SLC fits in there, too. It is a large city but it never seemed like a city that was "hub" material

agree, Delta needed a West Coast hub at the time, and if they decide to build up LAX further, that might come at the expense of SLC.

sorry if I offend anyone, but CLE, MEM and SLC should not be as "hubs"


User currently offlinebeechtobus From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13970 times:

Will Southwest ever come to Cincy? Im guessing that CVG is the largest city/market in the lower 48 not served by Southwest or Airtran.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15845 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13956 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
sorry if I offend anyone, but CLE, MEM and SLC should not be as "hubs"

They were fine in the days when oil was cheap, there were a lot of airlines, and everyone was making money. But then throw in 9/11, a recession, and increasing fuel costs and something has to give. Airlines went out of business and merged and the whole industry was faced with forced rightsizing. And when that happened the hubs that will be successful are the ones with strong local markets, like Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta, et. al. The marginal markets like St. Louis, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh went by the wayside. Airlines can either fill more seats or get more money for the seats they have flying to larger markets and the competitive environment no longer allows for hubs in midsize markets.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13940 times:

It is really sad i hate to see CVG as it is but i also have not been there with concourse A in use so hopefully it feels a little less depressing.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 5):
In my mind, SLC fits in there, too. It is a large city but it never seemed like a city that was "hub" material. Isn't most of their flying in and out of there (on DL) made up of CRJs?
SLC is a very unique market compared to those cities. It has larger o&d than those cities and is a much younger and faster growing city. Most of the growth has been recent and its future potential and o&d numbers only look better. What it lacks in population it makes up for with an unusually strong economy, low unemployment, significant tourism that really increases it numbers and businesses that love being located there and will fly people in/out and support flights. SLC has been profitable for Delta for years consistantly. It is not at risk of a dehub situation delta makes real cash there and its so consitantly strong and low competition Delta is extremely happy hence why it will defend to protect it.

Delta has alot of mainline including widebody fligts at SLC and wants more. SLC is very limited by its terminal currently. Alot of the gates can only accomidate CRJ-200s so delta has to fly alot of that plane type. The main banks are totally full with mainline or larger RJs. The new terminals that are being built are designed to solve this exact problem for Delta.

[Edited 2012-07-29 18:16:48]

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13901 times:

CVG is too close to DTW to be kept as a viable hub airport. I would not be surprised if it were to lose even more flights.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13711 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
I've always felt that some cities are not large enough, or economically important enough to be designated "Hubs". Airlines designated these cities hubs when those cities were booming, but times have changed and some of those cities have not kept up

CVG, STL, MEM, PIT are perfect examples...My guess, CLE will suffer the same fate, its just a matter of time
Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
I've always felt that some cities are not large enough, or economically important enough to be designated "Hubs". Airlines designated these cities hubs when those cities were booming, but times have changed and some of those cities have not kept up

CVG, STL, MEM, PIT are perfect examples...My guess, CLE will suffer the same fate, its just a matter of time

Cincinnati was very fortunate to have DL establish the level of operations they did. Fact is, the city is not that big, the metro area is not that big, it's not a tourist destination and the business market there is not even a top 12 or 13 in this country.

You have DTW and MSP close by that will and has serve as the hub for the region.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2019 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13634 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 12):
CVG is too close to DTW to be kept as a viable hub airport. I would not be surprised if it were to lose even more flights.

I would expect CVG to stay about where it is with 120-150 flights for the near-term. DL is stuck with the lease and bond payments for Concourses B and C until 2025, so their operation probably will pretty much exist to mitigate the costs they would otherwise be faced with if they completely left and just moth-balled the facilities and kept making payments.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 6):
I won't speak for the other cities, but Pittsburgh has never been stronger economically during the past 50 years than it is today.

   A perfect example of how you don't need a hub to be an economically healthy, vibrant, and growing city...also look at Raleigh and Austin.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 9):
Will Southwest ever come to Cincy? Im guessing that CVG is the largest city/market in the lower 48 not served by Southwest or Airtran.

I would absolutely bet good money that in the near future Southwest will transfer their DAY operation to CVG. People had said previously Southwest wouldn't come because they "ring" CVG at CMH, IND, and SDF, yet they have entered the DAY market which pretty much blows that assumption out of the water that they're not interested in the Cincinnati area. Dayton is, unfortunately, a dying city with a sour economy and shrinking population, conversely the Cincinnati area is much more healthy economically and has a growing population, so long-term Southwest has every reason to come to Cincy and little reason to remain in DAY, especially with DL's diminishing presence here at CVG.


User currently offlineairlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13477 times:

I would love to see any low-cost carrier start service at CVG. But I'll believe it when I see it. Nobody seems too interested. The closest thing they've got right now is F9/Apple Vacations to Cancun and Punta Cana. A non-stop to DEN would seem like a logical next step to try out. Also, most of the flights at CVG are not mainline, but regional/express. I would like to see that change, but I don't see that changing any time soon either.

I believe SLC is safe as a Delta hub, as least for now. It's not a huge hub, but it's big enough and it fills a niche for them. They wouldn't be getting ready to revamp the entire airport with Delta's support if the hub wasn't working.

[Edited 2012-07-29 19:28:54]

User currently offlineRockinflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13374 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 7):

Agreed. SLC will remain a mainline hub for DL for years to come.



AA,AC,AF,BA,BN,BW,CO,DL,FL,F9,HA,KL,NA,PA,RW,TW,UA,WA,WN
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8379 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13277 times:

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 1):
I don't know other impact it will have, but NRSAs will now often have one less option when trying weird routings to get home.

I always liked CVG for just that reason: it was non-rev friendly! Get into ATL and find your flight oversold? Hop a 767 to CVG and you're all set.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3311 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13117 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 14):
I would absolutely bet good money that in the near future Southwest will transfer their DAY operation to CVG.

I'll take that bet. While the DAY economy isn't where it could be it is a much easier drive from the ohio suburbs, which is where the bulk of population is for the metro area. Combine that with overall lower costs, and WN will be happy to stay at DAY.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10676 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13085 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
Alot of the gates can only accomidate CRJ-200s so delta has to fly alot of that plane type.

Unless things have changed drastically, there's 26+ gates at SLC that can handle mainline flights. Some of the CR900s also park at those gates........I believe that E concourse is mostly CR200s, probably CR700s and Brasilias. Most of the even gates on B concourse are a mix of mainline and Skywest.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 13):
Cincinnati was very fortunate to have DL establish the level of operations they did. Fact is, the city is not that big, the metro area is not that big, it's not a tourist destination and the business market there is not even a top 12 or 13 in this country.

CVG was originally set up as a reliever hub for DL and as I've mentioned in other threads, it morphed into a full blown hub. At the time, this happened, DL had not even bought PA's hub at JFK, yet........CVG and ATL were the only "hubs" in the east.....there was DFW in the south (and west) and SLC in the west. Until DL built up CVG as a full blown hub, SLC was easily as large or larger than CVG.

SLC is in a unique situation in that it isn't a very large city (although the metropolitan area and SLC valley is decent sized) but it is sort of the capital of the intermountain west, so it's actual size really has nothing to do whether it's a hub or not.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):

Delta has alot of mainline including widebody fligts at SLC and wants more.

Not nearly the number of widebodies as it used to.......there were 2-3 L1011s a day to HNL, widebodies to ANC, CVG, DFW, JFK & ATL and right after the merger with WA, DC-10s to ORD. I understand the flights to NRT & CDG have become seasonal.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3868 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

Quoting traindoc (Thread starter):
The bottom line for CVG is this: Total PAX for 2006-2007, 21.5 million, versus 8.3 million for 2011-2012. This is for the year ending April 30th, not the calendar year

It's actually even worse than that. For calendar year 2011, CVG saw 7,034,263 total passengers

http://www.cvgairport.com/about/news/stats.html

Click on 2011, then scroll down to December, 2011 and look at the column 2011 y-t-d

LoneStarMike


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12942 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 19):
I understand the flights to NRT & CDG have become seasonal.

I think the NRT is gone. I believe, though, that you are correct about CDG.


User currently offlineocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 695 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12761 times:

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 13):
Fact is, the city is not that big, the metro area is not that big, it's not a tourist destination and the business market there is not even a top 12 or 13 in this country.

This notion that to be a successful hub, you have to be in a population center with a gazillion people is somewhat overblown. Hypothetical example: what good does it do you if you have a hub in a city with 3,000,000 people, but only 4 people in that city could afford to buy an airline ticket? Wouldn't it be better to have a hub in a city of 200,000, yet everyone of those 200,000 took 19 trips a year? In other words, don't simply look at the population of a city to determine if that place is "worthy" to be a hub city.

As for the business market....Cincinnati is home to Proctor&Gamble, one of the largest, if not the number one largest, travel accounts in the country. I'm sure DL is happy to have most of that contract wrapped up.

Per capita, the Cincinnati area has one of the strongest corporate bases in the country. I'm not sure where you're getting your data. Strong manufacturing, research, banking, international, educational, health care, insurance, governmental sectors.

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 15):
I would love to see any low-cost carrier start service at CVG. But I'll believe it when I see it. Nobody seems too interested. The closest thing they've got right now is F9/Apple Vacations to Cancun and Punta Cana.

There is SunWIng, flying three times a week down to the Caribbean.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10676 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12741 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):

I think the NRT is gone. I believe, though, that you are correct about CDG.

Yes, NRT appears to be completely gone, but the CDG is still in the schedule for the winter.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12425 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17):
I always liked CVG for just that reason: it was non-rev friendly! Get into ATL and find your flight oversold? Hop a 767 to CVG and you're all set.

Back in the days I also liked DFW for that as well bypassing ATL, SLC was also a secondary option.



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
25 LHCVG : Not really. Remember DAY is in Vandalia at the northwest junction of I-70 and I-75 on the north side of Dayton, just like CVG is across the river. Yo
26 slcdeltarumd11 : I dont think he meant to insult CVG or anything. Really population is pointless its O&D that matters look at Denver. I think CVG problem just see
27 spiritair97 : When does CDG become seasonal? DAL89 is in the air right now so as of today it is running in the summer,ctoo. I'm guessing it was just recently made
28 milesrich : The proliferation of airline hubs was a result of first, the allowed expansion by the CAB of the original feeders into national, or semi national carr
29 mayor : Not sure.....Delta.com still shows it operating in November, but I didn't check beyond that. Before deregulation and before DFW was built, DAL was us
30 flyguy89 : As LHCVG stated, you have to be pretty far north of the city just to be equidistant between CVG and DAY, for the vast majority of the population, CVG
31 ckfred : CVG was started by DL for two reasons. First, ORD was suffering through more and more delays, with no relief in sight. This, despite the fact that ORD
32 LHCVG : Flyfuy is right: this is a classic case where you're spending more in order to tap a much larger and richer market. Sure DAY draws a bit of traffic f
33 toltommy : But there are more people living north of 275 than there are south. The city of Cincinnati is actually almost equal in size to the city of Toledo, bu
34 LHCVG : I'm not so sure....Hamilton County has a population of just over 800k, while Butler is a hair below 370k, and I dare say that there are probably some
35 mayor : Well, all I know is what we were told by management.......that CVG was a reliever hub for ATL. I don't believe ORD was ever going to be a full blown
36 Post contains images PHX787 : I cannot stand connecting in large hubs like DTW or ATL. Too crowded, too many delays, and when the weather hits, everything goes to hell. That's nev
37 slcdeltarumd11 : The flight operates year round. It just switches to i think 5x a week in the winter. The flight actually does very well from what i hear it just has
38 mayor : The way I understand it, this route was one that was being negotiated between SLC and NW BEFORE the merger. DL just carried on with it once they took
39 LHCVG : Which city are you talking about here? Because PIT is certainly doing much better than any time in recent memory, and is doing much better with it's
40 redzeppelin : SLC is larger than a lot of people realize. I posted this in another thread a while back, but here are the 2011 population estimates for the four nort
41 jfklganyc : "I won't speak for the other cities, but Pittsburgh has never been stronger economically during the past 50 years than it is today." And yet no rush t
42 steex : I think most people realize that, but that's not necessarily large enough to be a "slam dunk" hub location if not for the area's other unique charact
43 msp747 : I think you are getting far to general in your definition of a "hub" here. Yes, SLC is not a huge metroplex, but it fits the "hub" model perfectly. I
44 redzeppelin : I totally agree. If not for favorable geography, service at SLC wouldn't look much different from places like SAT, AUS, or maybe SJC. I was just tryi
45 LHCVG : It's not "who cares", it's that P&G in particular helps buoy CVG routes where they otherwise wouldn't succeed. It's worth noting, because CVG sti
46 tommy767 : Yeah I was flying through RDU yesterday I was thinking to myself, oh god, American Airlines used to have a hub here. That seems nuts for today's stand
47 flyguy89 : Let's not not rehash our previous discussion here. You make broad assumptions based on hearsay from your contacts despite facts and statistics which
48 mayor : Unless I'm mistaken, AA didn't open the hub in RDU (or BNA, for that matter) until they had been approved for service to London from those cities.
49 MJBATC12 : I REALLY hope B6 or WN will go into CVG. Great airport, has alot of space, and has the runways for someone like WN or JB to open a big focus city ther
50 LHCVG : It may well not be - I'm just qualifying my statement to add that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, and that CVG getting WN is the most
51 ckfred : You're right about that. But, I think DL expected that most every airline at ORD would keep something of a focus city operation, because of the size
52 mayor : AA was awarded RDU and BNA at the same time.........they were both applied for in the same DOT case. DL had applied for service out of SLC, but polit
53 KDAYflyer : WN inherited the DAY operations from FL, which was the number 1 airline at DAY. They surprassed DL some time ago. Many people from CVG commute to DAY
54 LHCVG : I was responding to the contention that DAY is more convenient for a majority of the Cincinnati area - which is most decidedly is not. Whether one ch
55 KDAYflyer : I agree it is only more convienient for a limited number of people in the CVG area, but apparently more are willing to save the $ of the parking and
56 LHCVG : That is one of the great missed opportunities for regional development, Particularly with heavy rail and/or HSR links to the respective downtowns, th
57 flyguy89 : That may be, but apparently it's yet to bottom out with high unemployment, high foreclosure rates, one of the highest building vacancy rates in the n
58 KarlB737 : Alright now I have heard for years that "costs" are higher at CVG. So maybe someone can clear this misunderstanding once and for all. Are the higher
59 LHCVG : 1 is really it - high cost to flyers who use CVG, combined with DL's strangehold on the market where they always respond in kind to any price undercu
60 GSPSPOT : I couldn't agree more. I LOVED having CVG as a real option for connecting vs ATL. It's just depressing. I know the draw-down of CVG by DL is a number
61 flyguy89 : CVG landing fees are more expensive than DAY but only because CVG is obviously a larger airport. Now the cost to passengers at CVG is high due to the
62 Post contains links jbmitt : So 8 years ago.. according to your profile you are 16-20 so should we assume you were 8 or more of a pre-teen then? Have you ever lived in Cincinnati
63 Post contains links airlinewatcher1 : Mike Boyd's take on CVG here: http://www.aviationplanning.com/HotF...011.htm#Monday,_February_21,_2011_
64 Post contains images LHCVG : Dollars to pesos he grew up in a suburb and barely ever set foot in the City itself. As you point out, given how young he is he likely has no concept
65 flyguy89 : Just to add here, both Great American Insurance and dunnhumbyUSA are both actually headquartered in Cincinnati. Great American is expanding, just rec
66 LHCVG : I also found the piece pretty accurate. Which routes end up surviving under the new competitive landscape (as DL completely pulls out and other carri
67 ckfred : I think it had more to do with Steve Wolf becoming CEO of Republic. The draw down at ORD happend at about the same time that Republic switched from t
68 KDAYflyer : I think it's a combination of factors but mostly due to the DL monopoly. FL tried to break it and failed. I know there were a couple of others (LCC's
69 izbtmnhd : Saying Cincinnati is larger than Cleveland is deceptive becuase of county boundaries that are used to define MSAs. If you actually overlaid Cincinnat
70 Post contains links LoneStarMike : For Fiscal Year 2011, DAY's cost per enplaned passenger (for the airlines) was $3.50 Source I couldn't find CVG's current cost per enplaned passenger
71 LHCVG : Of course. I was simply using MSA since that is a readily accessible measure that doesn't require detailed knowledge of a metro area. However, if you
72 AADC10 : I think it has less to do with economic strength than airline consolidation. DL needed a midwest hub and CVG was one of the few available. US hubbed
73 PSU.DTW.SCE : It is an a.net myth that airport fees render flights uneconomical. The difference between $3.50 versus $7 per passenger is not what is prohibiting cer
74 RDH3E : That 3.50 can send a flight into the red very easily. Look at airline margins these days... $350 a flight could definitely swing a flight to the nega
75 LHCVG : On a strictly per flight basis, yes, but the point is that there is much more that goes into it than a $3.50 difference in per pax fees. You have yie
76 PSU.DTW.SCE : My point is, all things being equal, the different of $3.50 per passenger can easily be passed along. As said, its when everything else is added in th
77 KDAYflyer : You may be right. As someone has already pointed out the 58th largest O & D market is pretty small potatoes, but I bet some energetic company wit
78 LHCVG : That will be interesting, because as of now I've seen CVG-MCO n/s on DL for $10 less than WN charges for CMH-MCO, so DL may try to remain competitive
79 PHX787 : I've been away for a while as I've been busy off my tail in Japan so I couldn't really reply to a lot of you, but there are a lot of points which you
80 LHCVG : I stand by my previous statement - if that's your perception of OTR today, then you have no idea what you're talking about. It's not a paradise, but
81 Post contains images flyguy89 : You're conflating Cincinnati the city proper with the region. The population of the city itself is decreasing, however the Cincinnati MSA has never b
82 LHCVG : Good catch...I was trying to speak more broadly about who to blame (e.g., the parties responsible for groveling to and laying out the red carpet for
83 Post contains links PITrules : Not really. Well beyond A.net and straight from the CEO's mouth: "Speaking during a Morgan Stanley debt investors conference in New York, Siegel said
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