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Ryanair Hits AA 767, Both Aircraft Fly With Damage  
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 34348 times:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0

Ryanair 737 winglet hits AA 767 elevator, causing damage to both. Ryanair captain disregards information from purser and passengers and doesn't inform the AA crew of a potential collision. The 767 took off with the damaged elevator. The 737 flew two sectors until the damage was noticed.

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 34319 times:

Wow. I assume that Ryanair pilot will be looking for a new career immediately? I would advocate fines or criminal charges if this story is true.

User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 730 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 34152 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Ryanair captain disregards information from purser and passengers and doesn't inform the AA crew of a potential collision.
AA did not pay collision-informing fee

[Edited 2012-07-30 00:13:03]

User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 34096 times:

So nobody on the AA plane realized anything happened?

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7747 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 34048 times:

I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.

How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 34023 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
Wow. I assume that Ryanair pilot will be looking for a new career immediately? I would advocate fines or criminal charges if this story is true.

One of the Avherald comments says that the captain was demoted to first officer. Not sure how reliable that source is.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2568 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 33807 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 2):
AA did not pay collision-informing fee

That was a milk-out-the-nose laughter causing statement!  

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 33520 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.

How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

Exactly.....thats the 2nd point......The 1st point is if a vibration of impact was felt,it should have been checked out.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 33177 times:

This is just a failure all round. The crew ignored information from people that a collision has definitely taken place and also didn't notice anything on the go around. The crew of the Ryanair crew knew nothing about the severity of the damage. They didn't even know if the AA was capable of flight due to the damage, yet ignored it. If it's true that this Captain has just been demoted rather than stripped of their job, of even license, then that's crazy.

User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5259 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32795 times:

Crew didnt notice due to the very bumby taxiway, plus it wasnt a hit, more like a brush.

User currently offlinecuban8 From Kiribati, joined Sep 2009, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32748 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
The 737 flew two sectors until the damage was noticed.

This is what happens when you fly with a lot of pressure from your commercial department. You end up in stressed situations with fatigues pilots, bad decision making and ill performed pre-flight inspections due to short turn-arounds.


Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 8):
The crew ignored information from people that a collision has definitely taken place and also didn't notice anything on the go around.

Did they execute a go around as well ??  


User currently onlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1860 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32532 times:
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After reading the article, I'm going to refrain from making any comments related to women drivers......

One thing does confuse me, wouldn't BCN Air Traffic Control have told the Ryanair to hold short and wait for the 763 to commence it's takeoff roll? Or did ATC think there was enough clearance for the 738 to get past the 763?

Either way, it seems that someone wasn't exercising proper judgement.

Then again, I can remember the first time I flew Iberia, from BCN to LPA, we took off, climbed out, and another 727 passed under us so close that I could literally see it's registration. That made me more than a little nervous. Has BCN ATC never heard of one mile separation?

Lastly, as damaged as that left stabilizer was, wouldn't that have presented issues in the cockpit of the 763?



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 31936 times:

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
Did they execute a go around as well ??  

Har-de-har. Walk around, obviously.  


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 31871 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 11):
One thing does confuse me, wouldn't BCN Air Traffic Control have told the Ryanair to hold short and wait for the 763 to commence it's takeoff roll? Or did ATC think there was enough clearance for the 738 to get past the 763?

Both airplanes were on the holding area short of the runway. Neither was actually on the runway. They were both in an area shown in the photo where dozens of planes taxi past each other every day.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 11):
wouldn't that have presented issues in the cockpit of the 763?

No. The photo of the damage to the B767 shows a very minor dent in the elevator. The angle and the zoom makes it look a lot bigger than it really is. The impact would not have been noticable in the cockpit of the B767, or the B737. It would have had no impact on the flight controls of the airplane.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

Any damage to the B737 would have been on the very top of the winglet. Those things are high, and hard to see unless you can get above the winglet and look down. My understanding is that many Ryanair aircraft park at remote stands. The damage likely could not be seen until the plane was parked at a jetway.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 31825 times:

Why is this old news just getting reported now? The timestamp on the pic showing damage to N336AA is from 04/11.

EDIT: Seems the event took place on 4/11..



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1878 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 31789 times:
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Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Crew didnt notice due to the very bumby taxiway, plus it wasnt a hit, more like a brush.

Well that all OK then. Being an FR fanboy does not allow you to make moronic comments.

A commercial airliner made contact with another aircraft before both took-off, the flight deck didn't investigate the 'brush' when they were informed of it, and didn't inform the other aircraft/ATC.......and you seem to be fine with this incident?


User currently offlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 31678 times:

This strikes me as a very serious issue deserving a thorough investigation into the FR captain's actions that day, as well as the business, cultural, and training issues that may have contributed to it. Especially damning is that in this case, the captain put at risk the crew and passengers of another plane. Any airline that would keep a pilot guilty of such gross negligence and dereliction of duty should have its certification carefully reconsidered. I hope the proper authorities have a good look.

Luckily both aircraft remained airworthy, but it seems particularly dangerous in that the 763 crew had likely already performed all of their control surface checks, no? Had the impact impaired function of the elevator, the AA crew may not have known until their plane failed to rotate as expected. That's a very bad time to find out your airplane is broken. I hope that AA pursues this matter as well, if for no other reason than to be sure FR sees consequences that it might wish to avoid in the future.


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 31522 times:

From the picture, it appears that the impact is not forceful enough to be noticeably felt by the occupants of both planes. The 767's horstab is quite high up and dihedral. The topmost tip of the 737's winglet just barely sliced into the stab's trailing edge which is also slightly lower to the ground than the leading edge. The winglet then exited under the stab, causing no further damage other than maybe a little linear indent and gradually fainter scratchline on the upward and outward slanting underside. A glancing blow that caused a small part of the thin trailing edge to break off and an area of the upper skin further in to pop up.



Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.
How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

My take is that as the damage to the winglet is at the top and is not heavy, it could be missed by the ground crew who are not aware of the accident and are therefore not specifically looking for anything unusual. As for the pilots, did they miss performing the required walkabout or did they just nonchalantly do a cursory one?



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31276 times:

We have not seen the damage on the 737 yet, so cannot comment if it was visible at a walk around at all...

Before any conclusion, we need better facts, but it sounds serious up to now. How can it be this came as news only about 4 months after it happened?


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31236 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):

4 months? Its more like 15.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31232 times:

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic and is the STUPIDEST question I have ever asked, but in the comments, somebody mentions that Ryanair only has only pilot for flight. That isn't true, is it? Once again, I sincerely doubt that that is true, but I just want to clarify.

User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1653 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31188 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 20):
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic and is the STUPIDEST question I have ever asked, but in the comments, somebody mentions that Ryanair only has only pilot for flight. That isn't true, is it? Once again, I sincerely doubt that that is true, but I just want to clarify.

The quite flamboyant (if you can call it that) CEO of Ryanair mentioned it a few times, probably to get media attention (a strategy that worked quite well IIRC). But it's luckily impossible with current regulations.

So no, still 2 pilots at the pointy end  



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5259 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31143 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 12):
Har-de-har. Walk around, obviously.

At Budapest they do walk arounds.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5259 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31115 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 15):
A commercial airliner made contact with another aircraft before both took-off, the flight deck didn't investigate the 'brush' when they were informed of it, and didn't inform the other aircraft/ATC.......and you seem to be fine with this incident?

No, I didnt say that. But judging from the number of posts of AA planes hitting their own planes at airports they should be used to it.   To me this sounds like FR bashing again. Every airline can get away with it exept for FR....typical..


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3338 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 31009 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Ryanair 737 winglet hits AA 767 elevator, causing damage to both.

A clear case of Ryanair punching above its weight.  
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 2):
AA did not pay collision-informing fee

Best this year.   



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
25 lppr95 : A few days ago I was at FAO waiting for my flight and noticed a FR pilot leaving the cockpit for a walk around. What shocked me was that the pilot we
26 BigSaabowski : I haven't heard of one mile separation either, is that new?
27 Acheron : That doesn't look minor at all. And I doubt there is such thing as "minor damage" when it comes to control surfaces.
28 LJ : As stated on Avherald, there is no official report yet and Avherald didn't know which aircraft were involved until somebody gave Avherald some additi
29 MikeCT : I don't think anyone is bashing the airline for the collision, but for ignoring the fact that it happened.
30 seabosdca : No one could "get away" with failing to investigate after being informed of a collision. It's indefensible and would remain so no matter what the air
31 SSTsomeday : Hilarious! The elevator could have failed at any time during the flight had it been severely enough damaged. I think this was an egregious error, and
32 Post contains images gingersnap : Women pilots I read on PPRuNe that because she was demoted, she actually left FR altogether.
33 Post contains links MikeCT : http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0 The article has just been updated with quite a bit more information. Specifically the captain sta
34 SEA : There was a good point on the AV Herald article: Would the FR crew have been able to spot the damage to the winglet from a walk around? It's near the
35 neutrino : You got it the other way round. The article states: "...she continued to say in the interview that had she been aware of multiple passengers observin
36 MikeCT : Right, she stated she was only aware of one passenger, not multiple passengers witnessing the collision. But I wrote, "wouldn't" reacted differently
38 neutrino : That was my earlier opinion on viewing the photo of the 767 damage. Its hard to discern looking up so high from ground level. Did the pilots actually
39 Gulfstream650 : Quoting a comment on Avherald:
40 Post contains links rfields5421 : From the Ryanair damage photo in the article (it is also included in post #37 above) - I don't see how anyone could see that doing a walkaround. Ther
41 MikeCT : To play Devil's advocate a little bit, couldn't you also assume if the captain of the 767 knew of the damage he would have elected not to fly?
42 rfields5421 : I'm certain the captain would have it checked if he knew that the contact had occured. I don't know the full regs on that type of damage, if it is a
43 SEPilot : I'm pretty sure that ANY visible damage to a control surface renders the aircraft instantly unairworthy. A very small amount of damage could induce f
44 Post contains images cf6ppe : SEPilot, Good post to the point. (you're probably startled to have me make that statement... ) In an instance such as this, consultation of the MEL (
45 slinky09 : I'm wondering what would you do if you were on the plane and witnessed the contact. Alert the cabin crewm yes, but how far would you take things if no
46 ZANL188 : It's not a dent, that's for sure. Torn metal with honeycomb showing....
47 blueflyer : Frankly the other reaction I don't understand is the passengers'. If I know I have seen an impact between the plane I am in and another aircraft, ther
48 Post contains images captainstefan : In Soviet Russia, plane walk around you
49 jreuschl : At least in the US, if you questioned aircraft security, you probably would be taken off the plane and questioned to no end by the TSA and FBI!
50 bennett123 : I frankly see nothing that would merit TSA/FBI involvement.
51 rfields5421 : he was responding to this statement: If a passenger raises a big enough argument to force the crew to let him off the airplane, initially he is going
52 Unflug : Any airline doing that to a passenger in the given situation would end up on my private "No Flight" list...
53 Acheron : There are better and safer options than FR, anyway, so no big loss.
54 DarkSnowyNight : If the damage is atop the winglet, you'd pretty much have to be looking for it, and then, no promises... Like who, exactly? I'll give you better, tha
55 Dano1977 : Well if that is her attitude, I hope she never finds another pilot job. She made a mistake, failed to inform the relevant parties involved... Man up
56 SEPilot : Basically it is aeronautical hit and run. The really bad part is that the AA pilot, having no knowledge that his plane has been damaged, is led into
57 Post contains links icna05e : Well. They could at least have done it LH-style and just got out to check visually... This Is Why I Love JFK (by Contrails15 Nov 4 2009 in Civil Aviat
58 acelanzarote : Since the Plane is Irish reg, would their (CAA or whatever) also investigate? Would the FAA be involved since it involved an American reg plane, askin
59 Gulfstream650 : I'm non legal expert but is there any case for AA's passengers to sue Ryanair for perhaps putting their lives in jeopardy?
60 pliersinsight : One of the key elements for a cause of action would be damages. Here, what are the AA passengers damages? They didn't even know they were flying on a
61 Gulfstream650 : Agree with your point. That being said, I think it is fair point to say that many a passenger on a US carrier would fear doing so. Take the Comair cr
62 rfields5421 : I'm certain the Irish authorities and the US NTSB were given the opportunity to participate in the investigation. The various aircraft accident inves
63 Post contains images seabosdca : The lack of notice to AA is the problem that stands out above all others here. The FR crew (actually the FO) could see from the cockpit that their ow
64 neutrino : At both aircrafts' stationary lineup position after the hit, they might not have been able to discern it. The least they should have done when the 76
65 Gulfstream650 : Remember - a passenger notified a crew member who in turn notified the Captain. Simply inexcusable.
66 AirPacific747 : I find this odd as well.. perhaps they rushed through the walkaround?
67 Post contains images B6JFKH81 : That is a blast from the past!!! That controller cracks me up, one of the best tower/local controllers out there.
68 icna05e : Yep! After diggin out that old thread, I indulged myself into Youtube clips of him and Boston John. Those guys are actors and ATC mutants, sooooo funn
69 pliersinsight : I think the way to handle it would just stay standing, calmly announce the issue, maintain an even tone...and not go bounding up the aisle. In the ca
70 HAWK21M : What about maintenance walkaround......
71 cf6ppe : Idea from another thread re: Ryanair possibly charging for use of overhead bins got me to wondering if Ryanair had sent a bill to AA for the magical a
72 strfyr51 : Maintnence might not even Do walkarounds anymore, AA is in bankruptcy and might have taken mechanics off the gate like united did some years ago to o
73 MD11Engineer : Actually I know airlines, which stopped maintenance walkarounds as too expensive. They argued that the pref-flight walkaround by the pilots would be
74 HAWK21M : Im surprised....The detailed checks by Maintenance compared to Flt crew walkaround cannot be compared.Every check from the Transit to the more detail
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