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Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 27458 times:

Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle.

Delta states that market conditions based on actual operating experience show that the Detroit-Haneda route is under performing, and the carrier seeks the flexibility to move the slots to the West Coast.

DL believes a SEA-Haneda service would be both more attractive for the consumer, and be a better fit for the carrier.


OST-2010-0018


So lets see if anyone objects    calling --- Hawaiian, United, etc...

[Edited 2012-07-30 15:17:05]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
230 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21525 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 27463 times:

Is the SEA-Haneda market big enough to support the flight by O&D alone (or at least a vast portion of the flight)? DL doesn't have a whole lot of feed going into SEA, and there's no onward traffic at the HND end. I could see other airlines making a case for this. I'm sure UA would like to get a SFO-HND service going, and that would seem to be the most logical place to move that flight.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2992 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 27450 times:

Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

That would be interesting to see four daily SEA-Tokyo flights - maybe five if the AA/JL venture adds SEA-NRT.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 27428 times:

So that would make:

UA SEA-NRT
NH SEA-NRT
DL SEA-NRT
DL SEA-HND
DL-SEA-KIX

As far as SEA to Japan goes. Hmm, that's a lot of capacity.   



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 27411 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle

I agree with that..

I know Detroit is a "Delta hub", but as far as O&D traffic to/from Asia, Seattle blows Detroit away... SEA can self-sustain, DL won't have to rely on connecting passengers

my 2 cents


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27316 times:

Smart move. Shorter flight, less fuel, plenty of Delta/Alaska connections over SEA. Plus the shorter flight time and time difference also mean a fairly reasonable schedule (at least out of SEA).

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

I think they would have to. HND would be near entirely O&D and/or connections on the SEA end. NRT would be largely connections on the Japan end. They serve two different functions, but seeing as Delta used NRT as a connection to points in Asia, I don't see how they could possible cut SEA off from that intra-Asia network (since any alternative Delta routing SEA-Asia would then require substantial backtracking or flights on a codeshare partner).

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
That would be interesting to see four daily SEA-Tokyo flights - maybe five if the AA/JL venture adds SEA-NRT.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
So that would make:

UA SEA-NRT
NH SEA-NRT
DL SEA-NRT
DL SEA-HND
DL-SEA-KIX

As far as SEA to Japan goes. Hmm, that's a lot of capacity.

That is too much capacity. If this happens, I predict United will quickly exit the SEA-NRT market - now that they have ATI/JV partner ANA in the market, there is really no longer a need for a United-operated flight, and if the market is flooded with even more of this capacity, I don't think they will be able to keep that flight going even if they want to.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27252 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta Airlines today formally asked the DOT for permission to move its 7 weekly Detroit-Haneda slots to Seattle.

I can see UA especially, and then maybe AA and HA all filing objectings to this.......

I don't think it's gonna be so easy, but they may be able to do it.


 


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5890 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27214 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Is the SEA-Haneda market big enough to support the flight by O&D alone (or at least a vast portion of the flight)? DL doesn't have a whole lot of feed going into SEA, and there's no onward traffic at the HND end. I could see other airlines making a case for this.

SEA-HND wouldn't be totally O&D. DL is partnered with AS to feed the DL international flights. I think DL has plenty of potential here. I would imagine the flights were start as 767-300ER's.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7499 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27212 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
but as far as O&D traffic to/from Asia, Seattle blows Detroit away

Thats actually not quite true. They are not that far apart, however Seattle's Asia O&D is a lot more widespread. Detroits O&D is highly tied to the auto industry and is heavily concentrated to a few cities (namely NGO and PVG).



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27075 times:

Can't say I'm too surprised. AA must not be too happy with performance on their JFK-HND flight either but they have even less options of moving the slot around their network.

I'm sure UA an HA will object, although, even if the request is denied I'm sure DL has the option of maintaining the route from DTW.

They probably have the numbers to back up SEA, because otherwise they probably would have asked for HNL-HND instead.

Daytime slots will be assigned in 2013, so I wonder if incumbents AA, DL and HA will get first dibs on these...


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27067 times:

Well it will be interesting of the DOT allows the move, as they made a pretty good case against awarding the service to Seattle to begin with.

Seattle (along with Detroit) were the smallest local markets in the route case, and that Delta would be relying heavily on its partner Alaska for connecting traffic flow – something it does not have full pricing or marketing control over. Also the DOT went out of its way to ensure the central and eastern US would have Haneda service as the West Coast gateways already have flights at LAX and SFO. For reference at the time of DL’s 2010 application they proposed 298 seat A330 service.

If DOT wants to stick to its above 2 arguments, then UA should come back with its EWR proposal. Otherwise I am sure the carrier would be happy to do a SFO or GUM to Haneda flight.
Hawaiian Air surely will also seek the slot, as it has repeatedly asked for a 2nd daily HNL-HND run.
I'm not sure what AA would do, but it to date has had enough trouble trying to keep its JFK-HND alive to maybe worry about a 2nd route.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3252 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 26942 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Well it will be interesting of the DOT allows the move, as they made a pretty good case against awarding the service to Seattle to begin with.

Seattle (along with Detroit) were the smallest local markets in the route case, and that Delta would be relying heavily on its partner Alaska for connecting traffic flow – something it does not have full pricing or marketing control over. Also the DOT went out of its way to ensure the central and eastern US would have Haneda service as the West Coast gateways already have flights at LAX and SFO. For reference at the time of DL’s 2010 application they proposed 298 seat A330 service.

If DOT wants to stick to its above 2 arguments, then UA should come back with its EWR proposal. Otherwise I am sure the carrier would be happy to do a SFO or GUM to Haneda flight.
Hawaiian Air surely will also seek the slot, as it has repeatedly asked for a 2nd daily HNL-HND run.
I'm not sure what AA would do, but it to date has had enough trouble trying to keep its JFK-HND alive to maybe worry about a 2nd route.

Given how bad HND has performed in general for each of these carriers, at least to start, I am skeptical that any of them (including UA) are going to be keen to start a totally new O&D market. And, while HA no doubt wants HNL#2, it would be hard for the DOT to pass up new service to SEA in exchange for that. I also struggle with the idea that DOT would turn down SEA for GUM.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1911 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 26803 times:

I hope the government grows a spine and says absolutely no way. If you don't want to fly DTW-HND, time to give the slot back. From there it goes back up for grabs.

User currently offlineLAXSTEW From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 40 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 26687 times:

anyone know how LAX-HND has been performing?

User currently offlineDTWHKG From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 26648 times:

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 14):
anyone know how LAX-HND has been performing?

Doesn't seem good to me. The price is routinely much lower than ANA's LAX-HND flight, as well as other LAX-NRT flights.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9503 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26304 times:

This is not a surprise. DL always wanted SEA-HND and it was the top request that they made. It was the DOT that forced them into DTW and LAX which were not as preferable.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):

SEA-HND wouldn't be totally O&D. DL is partnered with AS to feed the DL international flights. I think DL has plenty of potential here. I would imagine the flights were start as 767-300ER's.

I agree and disagree. The HND slot requirements make the arrival and departure times less than idea. The earliest arrival that DL could get into SEA would be about 6pm. With a 90 minute minimum connection, that allows most of the west coast including the small Pacific Northwest markets, but the connections available are very different from what DTW allows. The DTW arrival and departure are well timed for connections.

However, one big factor is that a 763ER can easily do SEA-HND which would really help as it is a smaller airplane.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Well it will be interesting of the DOT allows the move, as they made a pretty good case against awarding the service to Seattle to begin with.

The DOT and airlines thought that HND would be far more successful that it is proving to be. The arrival and departure window into HND has killed reasonable connections and public transportation is not very good to HND in the night. Despite the distance, NRT is still sometimes easier to reach since the US flights leave at reasonable late afternoon/early evening.

I think the DOT might realize that they were a bit optimistic in the potential for the HND slots. HNL has been the only successful market. SFO, LAX, JFK, and DTW have all struggled. Destinations like GUM, HNL and maybe SEA might work out better. The DOT wants to see full airplanes and maximum usage of slots and not empty airplanes, or seasonal, less than daily, or suspended routes.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26180 times:

really?

I wish the DOT would just say no you are getting rediculous..........and let someone else use it

If Delta gets the permission i still think this has no chance of long term survival. HND was overrated lets be honest here. The airlines thought it was this rare opportunity and who is making a killing now? With no feed on the HND end i see SEA ending poorly as well unless they have some master plan to then cancel LAX flight and route all the traffic thru SEA?


Quoting DTWHKG (Reply 15):
Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 14):
anyone know how LAX-HND has been performing?

Doesn't seem good to me. The price is routinely much lower than ANA's LAX-HND flight, as well as other LAX-NRT flights.

Just a random theory Is there any crazy chance that delta is trying to get the SEA authority and then leave LAX behind and use the AS feed into SEA as a single west coast access point to HND? Just a theory but i am sure they wouldnt approve a LAX to SEA move since its to a smaller already serviced west coast city so they might think they have a chance to move DTW first then cancel LAX? They would have the AS feed at SEA just a thought and i bet they could push UA off of NRT service


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26130 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

That would be interesting to see four daily SEA-Tokyo flights - maybe five if the AA/JL venture adds SEA-NRT.

SEA-NRT isn't going anywhere, DL is keeping it right where it is.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
So that would make:

UA SEA-NRT
NH SEA-NRT
DL SEA-NRT
DL SEA-HND
DL-SEA-KIX

As far as SEA to Japan goes. Hmm, that's a lot of capacity.   

There's probably a fair amount of conventional wisdom that goes into this. As someone else mentioned in here, that UA/NH might do away with the UAs SEA-NRT flight and what I think that DL might downguage the the NRT to a 76ER, I think their will be a fair amount of capacity being squeezed. DL submitted it's request as is, and then will probably negotiate it down when its all said and done. Once we have enough of the 76Ts in circulation

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
I know Detroit is a "Delta hub", but as far as O&D traffic to/from Asia, Seattle blows Detroit away... SEA can self-sustain, DL won't have to rely on connecting passengers

Probably because SEA is just a more convenient place for people to travel in to than LAX or SFO. Those places are zoos compared to SEA.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7831 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26020 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 18):
really?

I wish the DOT would just say no you are getting rediculous..........and let someone else use it

What's the harm in asking? The DOT will either say "no, it's getting ridiculous" or "yes." I don't see the big outrage here...

And as others have pointed out, I think most of the cities picked just aren't working (probably due to the poor slot times.) Additionally, it's not as if DL is trying any trickery, they have DTW-HND a shot, it's not too good, so they are asking to switch it over to SEA-HND, their first choice



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1622 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25961 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Would DL have two flights a day SEA-HND and SEA-NRT? Or would HND replace NRT?

They would lose all the beyond NRT traffic if they dropped NRT

[Edited 2012-07-30 18:21:13 by srbmod]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25920 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
I predict United will quickly exit the SEA-NRT market

I realize that's a popular meme on a.net, but I wonder, is there a 5th freedom flight beyond NRT that UA would be willing to give up in exchange for losing a U.S.-originating flight number into NRT? It'd also be interesting to see what UA's forward bookings look like now that the NH flight has started.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 19):
DL might downguage the the NRT to a 76ER, I think their will be a fair amount of capacity being squeezed.

That prompted me to remember that UA will also have plenty of 2-class 763s coming into the fleet as soon as the conversions are done on the 14 domestic models. UA dropping SEA-NRT might not be the sure thing people are making it out to be, even with an HND flight added to the mix. But let's see if the DOT allows DL to swap the flight to SEA first.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25882 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 19):
DL might downguage the the NRT to a 76ER, I think their will be a fair amount of capacity being squeezed. DL submitted it's request as is, and then will probably negotiate it down when its all said and done. Once we have enough of the 76Ts in circulation

  

I suspect that is precisely what would happen. 2x daily 767 would still be capacity overkill for the overall SEA-TYO market, but it would certainly be better than 1 or both of those flights being A330s.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
but I wonder, is there a 5th freedom flight beyond NRT that UA would be willing to give up in exchange for losing a U.S.-originating flight number into NRT?

Not sure what the implication is that you're trying to make. United discontinuing a SEA-NRT flight would in no way precipitate United ending any 5th freedom beyond-NRT flying. The two are wholly unconnected - there is no requirement for any U.S. carrier to operate 5th freedom, beyond-NRT flights solely as continuations of incoming U.S.-NRT flights.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25850 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
Not sure what the implication is that you're trying to make.

To fly NRT-ICN, for example, UA requires an inbound flight number from the U.S. to fly the route on a 5th freedom basis. I was wondering if is there a flight currently being flown beyond NRT that UA would be willing to give up (assuming they're using all of their 5th freedom rights), to compensate for losing the SEA-NRT flight number to send beyond NRT.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9503 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25821 times:

I really am not surprised to see DL wanting to end DTW-HND. They are using the A332 on the route, which makes it one of the longest A330 routes in the world. The loads are low enough that it doesn't really matter that DL has to take weight restrictions on the DTW-HND leg since the A330 is not ideal for operating a 13+ hour route. DL has basically tried everything that they can to make the route work.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 18):
really?

I wish the DOT would just say no you are getting rediculous..........and let someone else use it

If Delta gets the permission i still think this has no chance of long term survival. HND was overrated lets be honest here. The airlines thought it was this rare opportunity and who is making a killing now? With no feed on the HND end i see SEA ending poorly as well unless they have some master plan to then cancel LAX flight and route all the traffic thru SEA?

Actually that would not surprise me. DL said in their filing that SEA-HND was their preferred route. LAX and DTW were decided by the DOT from DL's application when DL applied for 4 different slots.

DL's international network is stronger out of SEA than LAX. LAX has virtually no feed. The only feed it has is SFO, LAS, PHX and the redeye routes to the east coast. With SEA being slightly over 1 hour less of flying time from Japan, it opens up more connecting opportunities than LAX. A 6pm arrival would connect to almost every airport AS serves west of the Rockies. SEA also doesn't have the competition that LAX has with 7 airlines operating LAX-NRT and NH on HND-LAX.

[Edited 2012-07-30 18:36:18]

[Edited 2012-07-30 18:49:45]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 25783 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
To fly NRT-ICN, for example, UA requires an inbound flight number from the U.S. to fly the route on a 5th freedom basis.

False. There is no such requirement.

Assuming they could get the slots, United can schedule a flight departing NRT at 0900 to ICN with not a single inbound connecting passenger (indeed, over a decade ago, they actually did have a 0900 originator to ICN from NRT). Again - there is no stipulation that any U.S. carrier's beyond-NRT flight must be tied to an inbound U.S.-NRT flight, or vice versa.

Thus, cancelling SEA-NRT requires United to discontinue only 1 flight, not 2.


25 Post contains links AeroWesty : Interesting. That's not how we understood the 1998 bilateral which NateDAL pulled and posted beginning in Reply #12 in this thread six years ago: Ber
26 MEL : daytime USA-Haneda-USA slots can't come soon enough. It's no surprise that many of these flights appear to not be doing well financially given the hor
27 jetjack74 : Thats the idea. Give the US carriers access to HND when nobody wants to fly in or out of HND, thereby not interrupting Japan's flag-carrying airlines
28 wedgetail737 : It's possible that all three airlines serving SEA-NRT may coexist. A lot of the speculations that UA may relinquish the SEA-NRT market to NH is that
29 slcdeltarumd11 : The only thing to remember here is that DEN-NRT is coming online soon. This has to reduce SEA demand somewhat. IIRC the SEA-NRT flight is a one stop a
30 AeroWesty : Oh right! I'd forgotten all about DEN-NRT. That answers some of my questions regarding beyond flights. Thanks for the reminder.
31 jetjack74 : So is this printed anywhere?
32 steex : Could you provide documentation of this? I've always understood a fifth freedom route to require a flight number originating in the USA (which techni
33 LAXintl : Yes. See docket
34 strfyr51 : I KNEW it wasn't going to take Delta long to figure out they cound feed a west coast flight to Asia from ALL over the counrty but you can only feed a
35 steex : Well, if you're correct, then Delta had it right all along! HND-SEA was their first choice on the application, but DOT chose to award them LAX and DT
36 jetjack74 : Well, I'm looking at it, and all I see is the docket reference from February of 2010 June 2011. Just sayin'
37 LAXintl : Here is the summary --- 2010 US-Tokyo (Haneda) Combination Services Allocation Proceeding OST-2010-0018 July 30, 2012 Motion of Delta Air Lines Delta
38 RWA380 : Yes DL connects several gateway cities to SEA like ATL, JFK, SLC and then AS brings a huge amount of flights from all over the country to SEA. If the
39 jcwr56 : While I can understand DL's requesting to move, will the DOT really want to start swapping cities out as an after the fact when awarding a route to a
40 jcwr56 : Yes, they should IMO. DL was awarded the route from a specific city. Just as a new bid would allow a carrier to operate it from their specific city.
41 Flighty : What was the original idea here? That Detroit Tokyo is some huge market? That connectors really care about the hour or so HND saves you versus NRT? B
42 RWA380 : I hadn't even thought of it like that, but now you said it, it seems so simple, use the award as directed, or let the new rebid begin, I do think a s
43 rwsea : In fairness, DL originally requested SEA-HND as their first choice. Instead, the DOT awarded them their backup choices (LAX, DTW). I'm usually one of
44 wjcandee : I have some familiarity with AA's struggling HND-JFK route, so maybe this helps inform the discussion. The ability to be an hour closer at HND is deli
45 STT757 : For this one UA should definitely apply to have the rights reallocated to them so they could launch SFO-HND.
46 LAXintl : DTW was not their "backup" choice. Delta brazenly applied for all 4 available Haneda frequencies - from, DTW, HNL, LAX, and SEA. While DL attempted t
47 Post contains images peanuts : Correct. That's why SEA was their first choice. Shocker... Basically what you are saying: UA deserves to get their first choice reallocated to them i
48 jcwr56 : Well, they could have denied accepting the route on the grounds it wasn't their first choice. but no, they took it knowing on the long term it wasn't
49 LAXdude1023 : I think that. DL picked the route they thought would win the application not the route they actually wanted. Since UA was denied the application base
50 peanuts : Brazenly? That's a loaded word right there. You are adding way too much color to DL's original request. Was DL modest about the original application?
51 LAXintl : 1998 is ages ago. Matter of fact US-Japan have had 3 amendments since including a total rewriting of the air service agreement in 2009/2010 which lib
52 FlyASAGuy2005 : The worst that can happen is the DOT will deny the request and DL will continue to operate DTW-HND...it's that simple. What they will not do is give u
53 DeltaL1011man : why? That is what will pretty much happen with the exception of taking the slots. UA will say its wants it for this, and HA for that. Then the DOT wi
54 C010T3 : The DOT could not take foreign carriers' services into consideration. That was not in the arguments used by the DOT. Furthermore, Delta's selection a
55 LAXintl : Yes brazen. In many many years of watching DOT filings, I cannot recall an airline ever opting to go for every single available award in multi freque
56 slcdeltarumd11 : Delta chose to file for all four. As always you make good points and really know your stuff DTW seems to be so weak you never know. For LAX-DL and JF
57 mogandoCI : But that's exactly what DOT did. They denied UA any slots precisely because NH already has LAX and HNL, so "Star Alliance already has their fair shar
58 steex : Pardon my ignorance, but isn't it Section II you quote that DOES require a single flight number continuing to/from the homeland? The only portion of
59 avek00 : Let Delta move it to SEA, the more they bleed the better the situation for United.
60 Roseflyer : Personally, if they are willing to let DL move the slot, they should let other airlines propose usage for the slot. HA and UA would likely bid for it
61 Post contains images AeroWesty : Thanks for your updates, yes '98 is a long time ago, but the bilateral hadn't changed substantially before then since 1952. So that I understand the
62 LAXintl : Sure it did. The DOT in the comments made a reference to the fact there would be already service from two other West Coast gateways when opting again
63 Post contains images LAXintl : Well AA is in with its DOT response. Basically says AA does not object to Delta's motion so long that it is granted similar relief in the use of its o
64 slcdeltarumd11 : I wonder if AA sees this as a chance for them to move the slot to LAX? Would probably work out better for them and at a minimum its shorter and they
65 Post contains links steex : To me, this comes from multiple references to the "route" and "flight" continuing in each direction. I think the general understanding is that if you
66 LAXdude1023 : Perhaps a move to ORD-HND is in the future. Dont know if LAX-HND would be a money pit for AA given the competition.
67 Roseflyer : I can’t imagine AA wanting to fight LAX-HND. There are already two airlines (NH & DL) on LAX-HND and 8 airlines (UA, DL, AA, NH, JL, SQ, KE, MH
68 mcdu : [quote=MSPNWA,reply=12]I hope the government grows a spine and says absolutely no way. If you don't want to fly DTW-HND, time to give the slot back. F
69 AeroWesty : Using the link steex posted (thank you!): Section 1(4)(f) states: "serve points behind any points in its territory with or without change of aircraft
70 commavia : Here's how I know it can be done: because airlines are doing it now, and have been for years, under both the old and new bilaterals. Again - United w
71 AeroWesty : Perhaps I'm just not reading the timetables correctly. Could you post the details for one of those flights as an example?
72 steex : No they are not. Neither airline operates a single flight beyond NRT that is not a continuation of a flight number originating in the United States.
73 commavia : Correction. You're right - I didn't realize the ROR flight number originated in GUM. Nonetheless, the bottom line is that - based on everything I hav
74 steex : Interesting - that's the exact flight I cited as an example of requiring an origin in the homeland when I questioned your reasoning way back in Reply
75 azjubilee : I think it's pretty obvious that the flight times are the issue here and nothing else. It's clear DL and AA operate successful flights to NRT with rea
76 FlyASAGuy2005 : I agree with everything in principle except this. I think DL will stick it out a little longer and see what the Japanese government can come up with
77 AeroWesty : Given that the 2010 bilateral only allows for operations between 2200 and 0700, what slot times do you think would work better, if they could get the
78 Roseflyer : I fully agree. The HND routes being forced into the night hours relieves some strain from NRT as it has the potential to reduce the number of NRT fli
79 Tdan : This would perform marginally better than DTWHND and likely worse than JFKHND. The problem is that the schedules with the current HND restrictions su
80 707lvr : That's a lot of capacity coming right after Ichiro's departure.
81 FlyASAGuy2005 : I know what the current agreement is, thanks. My point was that they will most likely just chose to fly the route until Meaning, they'll play the wai
82 azjubilee : FlyASA - I'm not sure what else DL can do, should it not be able to make a go at SEA-HND. Until timings improve, it will always be a thorn in their si
83 SR117 : France and the UK have already amended their bilaterals with Japan to allow for daytime slots once they become available in 2014, the US shouldn't be
84 Post contains images Tdan : HNLHND has been profitable for HA since the route's inception. The schedule really works well for Hawaii. Or conversely, DL is famous for bringing ou
85 azjubilee : Tdan - I disagree whole heartedly with the "DL Dartboard" fallacy. HNL-HND for HA had a rocky period after the earthquake/tsunami and loads decreased
86 FlyASAGuy2005 : Agreed. In the case of slot controlled fields they tend to fork over a bit more money for the benefits down the road. I can't really speak for Brazil
87 azjubilee : FlyASA - I agree a certain sense of commitment has to be had for slot controlled airports. London is a successful and established market as is Tokyo.
88 Tdan : FOR, REC, MAO, ABV, LAD, SSG, NBO, ROB, KWI, CPT, GOT, OTP, BUD, KBP, TXL, MAN, EDI, LYS, GYE, QRO, TAB, ATLICN, ATLPVG, LAXGRU, DTWHKG, NRTCAN, SLCN
89 FlyASAGuy2005 : I guess it'll come down to how much money they had initially committed to loosing (believe it or not this is done in cases like this). When they reac
90 LAXdude1023 : You left out ATL-BOM.
91 azjubilee : Tdan - Seriously? You're going to bring up many routes that were started and since suspended and call that dartboard route planning? Clearly we can't
92 jetlanta : If Delta had started out with a comprehensive permium-oriented international route network, based in large gateway O&D markets, it might have jus
93 Post contains images Tdan : And a bunch of others in the Caribbean that I couldn't remember Didn't they do PTP and FDF at one point? If I had a better memory, I would have broug
94 FlyASAGuy2005 : We seem to forget the global economy going into the tank during the same time period and the price of oil going up almost 300%. DL was more so expose
95 steex : It's not really fair to go back years in search of routes that were cancelled, especially since they cover a broad scope of circumstances. Within tha
96 Post contains images LAXintl : Delta simply follows a different philosophy. I'm not sold if the reward is there or now, and if the P&L's truly speak for themselves. Seems to be
97 HNL-Jack : At the time the applications were submitted every airline knew about the restrictions. The only U.S. markets that were immediatly viable, given the re
98 Roseflyer : Just a side comment, a weak dollar is a good thing for Delta. The dollar has been falling against the yen for the last few years. That gives an advan
99 PSU.DTW.SCE : If only there was as much interest in the HND flights as there are in any thread involving the DOT and HND, there would be no need to have to re-alloc
100 Cubsrule : As a business traveler who frequents a handful of routes, I buy it. WN moved one of the two BNA-LAX flights by two hours a little while back. I almos
101 Post contains images Tdan : Just a quick point of clarification, my point wasn't that they have no idea what they are doing, but rather that the planning was poor. You can have
102 Post contains links PSU.DTW.SCE : I won't necessarily say poor planning decisions, but also the priorities have changed. DL was much less conservative at starting new routes but has r
103 Tdan : Totally agree here. DL has done a much better job recently, especially the past year and the results have been clear. You may call it being more cons
104 RayChuang : I think in the end, SEA-HND would be a surprisingly strong O&D route for one reason: the Seattle area has a the likes of Amazon.com, Boeing, Micro
105 civetfive : I simply fail to see why that travel wouldn't already be adequately served by the tremendous amount of capacity SEA sees to Japan + ICN - don't forge
106 LAXintl : There might be a few large companies based in SEA, but the market is hardly a huge one. DOT made mention of the fact that SEA was the smallest (along
107 alexinwa : As a side note......rumor has it UA will re-open SEA as a "focus city" once the move to A is over. Rumors of UA adding flight to/from SEA. Can anyone
108 wedgetail737 : I believe this when I see it. Until the UA/CO merger, UA had been slowly dropping flights out of SEA. It seemed inevitable that the SEA-NRT service w
109 Roseflyer : With three airlines on SEA-NRT, I don’t see SEA-HND having the need for capacity. Before ANA started SEA, I thought it was a good market. Unless UA
110 jetjack74 : Well, to say that there has to be a "need", is short-sighted at best. Eventually, someone is going to do it eventually, and eventually, someone is go
111 rwy04lga : Is this NWA's original order of 18+50?
112 STT757 : Yes, DL never ordered the 787 themselves, they inherited the NWA order.
113 commavia : Hardly. It would be different if we were talking about a rapidly-developing economy, or market, or route, where traffic was jumping 10-20% per year -
114 BoeingGuy : The real problem was the LHR slot times were bad and the flight didn't go at very good times. Who knows if DL could be successful now with a SEA-LHR
115 Post contains images LAXintl : Actually US-Japan traffic is on the long term decline (down almost 30% last 8-years) as there are ever more direct nonstops to Asia, so the need to r
116 jetjack74 : Precisely. Had it left the same time the daily BA flight did, it would've been more successful. Furthermore, NW barely marketed it. There was a banne
117 LAXintl : Regarding SEA-LHR, NW/DL had a pool of LHR slots it was free to utilize amongst all its flights. What SEA ended up compared to other destinations was
118 wedgetail737 : Doesn't UA now fly 2X daily between SEA-ANC as part of the CO service?
119 jetjack74 : Well, the economy was in terrible shape then, as it is now. Venturing in to any market comes with dim prospects. Had there been less market volatilit
120 HNL-Jack : HND is primarily a O&D market. Closer to the heart of TYO which serves the outbound Japan leisure demand for markets such as GUM and HNL well. To
121 slcdeltarumd11 : I can see sea possible only If it replaces dtw then they abandon lax and route everyone thru sea.
122 PSU.DTW.SCE : In the next schedule update loading this weekend, DL is ending DTW-HND effective 9/30/12.
123 klkla : That's too bad. The real culprit here is the allowed flight times despite all the bashing going on in this thread. AA is also having difficulty from
124 FlyASAGuy2005 : Why ask to move it and already load the cancellation before an answer is given. I guess I was wrong in saying they will fly the route even if they ar
125 StuckInCA : Isn't BA still flying SEA-LHR?
126 HNL-Jack : Except that DL knew the slot times before they applied.
127 mayor : Except, as you should know, the FAA has nothing to do with it......it's the DOT. You do realize, of course, that DL's VP of network planning, Glen Ha
128 MaverickM11 : Like who? Let's be honest. DL has added some crazy stuff, and very little of it has worked, to no benefit to the company or shareholders.
129 mayor : You don't know unless you try, do you?
130 Tdan : You do realize Glen and Bob were allowed to leave CO. Had they been as good as they thought they were, CO would not have let them leave and they woul
131 PSU.DTW.SCE : Very true.... Since early 2011 there has been a fundamental change within DL. Immediately during and following the merger, the talk was all about gro
132 jetlanta : Mav, look at the Delta network in 2006 and look at it today. Look at unit revenues vs. the industry. Look at P&L margins. No benefit? Really? Del
133 HNL-Jack : Indeed! Guess I'm showing my age.
134 timf : Could this be due to range limitations of the A332 during the winter season? Considering that the A332 is already stretched to the max on DTW-HND and
135 slcdeltarumd11 : I think you are putting a rediculous value on the HND slots. I also dont think delta values the HND slots nearly as much as you think they do. They w
136 mayor : So, CO has its execs chained in their office, only allowing them out when they say it's ok? Obviously, Gordon Bethune (CO's savior) thought Glen was
137 peanuts : You drive an important point in your post. Any company, no matter what line of business, has to do multiple things from different angles in order to
138 bobnwa : How do you explain DL having the best financials in the industry and their employees being the best paid?
139 MaverickM11 : They've done a great job overall with a challenging network. But what did the whole Brazil FOR/REC/MAO rigamarole yield? Big losses. HND? DTWHKG? Pro
140 jetlanta : But isn't your first point the important one? While it is easy to armchair quarterback, many of these markets are bigger mysteries than they appear.
141 spacecadet : Personally, I would much rather fly into HND's international terminal than any terminal at NRT, but I agree that it's not worth dealing with off time
142 panamair : Actually, I think that for a few select markets where there is a substantial premium base that is "worth chasing", they are doing that. Prime example
143 FlyASAGuy2005 : I already acknowledged that part of my post but thanks.
144 jetlanta : Actually, I'm quite certain JFK-LHR has been strongly profitable for a couple of years now. This is where Delta's newfound strength in the NYC O&
145 klkla : That doesn't change the fact that the slots are the problem, though, not the route. Delta gave it a shot and they are being fiscally responsible to s
146 Post contains images panamair : Good to hear, then...happy to be corrected in this case
147 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Wouldn't they have made more money had they not bothered w/ HND? I think DL realized that was a good way to lose a lot of money quickly. The stuff ou
148 Post contains images LAXintl : United is in with its response to the Delta request. Basically United points out that Delta continues to fail in delivering on its promises and now as
149 SR117 : Maybe, but trying to nab slots at a highly coveted airport was not a crazy idea by any measure. Now, what DL and most other foreign (non-asian) airli
150 mayor : And I wonder what UA's excuse might be, if the route fails for them, too? If it's awarded to them, have they then painted themselves into a corner?
151 LAXintl : I think United would do OK as the times tend to work from the West Coast and can provide connectivity on both ends. Also any UA flight would be part o
152 azjubilee : Should UA gain success in nabbing DL's slot... what makes them more able to have success with equally as dreadful flight times? There will be no domes
153 Post contains images LAXintl : Sure there can be. Depart SFO midnight'ish-1am arrive at 6AM into HND. Depart HND 11pm'ish and back on the West Coast at 4-5pm. ANA runs the same sch
154 SR117 : The JV might help, however, UA's proposed times pretty much mimicked JAL's, which means no connections upon arrival at HND, save for BKK and SIN. Unl
155 mayor : As could DL, out of SEA.......last time I checked, SEA was on the west coast, also.
156 AeroWesty : UA could always fly a 5th freedom flight to CAN during the day, given they have adequate authorities in place to do it, or apply for them. That's an o
157 Post contains links SR117 : Not out of HND unfortunately, slots are currently restricted to a certain number of frequencies for each country. HND is a whole other ballgame which
158 AeroWesty : What about these you mentioned earlier (below)? Is there some restriction in having them assigned to U.S. carriers for beyond flights? Assigning more
159 StuckInCA : And if you ask me it's a much better place to connect as SFO is so prone to delays.
160 United1 : What connections would DL be able to offer out of HND? They probably would look at a redeye...and even without many connections at HND UAs flight wou
161 Roseflyer : The A332 is the wrong airplane to be using on DTW-Japan services. The 777 is much better, and DL has 777s that they could use like they use on DTW-IC
162 mayor : Maybe that's why SEA-HND was their 1st choice. Sorry, I should have been clearer......I was referring to the SEA-HND portion, only.
163 United1 : Sure DL would be able to offer connections in SEA on AS..however the DOT shot that argument down during the last round of slot allocations.
164 mayor : Even if the codeshare with AS isn't an ATI/JV, I don't see how it's much different than UA's JV with NH.
165 Post contains images dlflynhayn : Of course you think they will do ok. With all that brave talk from UA I say let them have a crack at losing money,and just hang on to that LAX route
166 United1 : I see three major differences... 1. The feed on the SFO end is UA vs AS in SEA which DL has no control over. Something that the DOT pointed specifica
167 SR117 : Let's not forget that one of the reasons why the DOT awarded DL two routes was due to UA's joint venture with ANA. United already has access to Haned
168 azjubilee : My bad - I thought the slots were for late night arrivals and departures. I didn't realize they could have an early morning arrival in HND.
169 MSPNWA : If I was UA, I'd say the exact same things. Hopefully the DOT will listen.
170 DeltaL1011man : better question, if/when Japan stops being stupid and allows anytime flights at HND will it be worth it. Delta has, so far, thought so. No one other
171 LAXintl : And no surprise, Hawaiian Air has a comment about Delta's request. Hawaiian states that being the sole carrier that has offered uninterrupted service
172 mayor : Does HA know something we don't, because I don't recall DL saying they would vacate the route if they weren't allowed to operate it from SEA?
173 LAXintl : I think they saw it being pulled from GDS in September, and the DOT last time warned DL it would unlikely allow further dormancy request due to conti
174 LAXintl : Btw with ending of DTW-HND, I see DL is retiming its LAX flight again. Effective 9/30 DL637 LAX-HND 1835-2300 A332 DL636 HND-LAX 0030-1830 A332[Edited
175 mayor : I hardly think a seasonal suspension is the same as "dormancy".
176 LAXintl : Anything over 90-days is dormancy.
177 mayor : So, you're saying that the DOT won't allow DL to do any more seasonal suspensions or just on this route?
178 LAXintl : Here is how things work. Any route not operated by 90-days is considered dormant, and is subject to revert back to the DOT for reallocation. In majori
179 klkla : Which is very likely what will happn but you can't blame DLfo trying.
180 DeltaL1011man : It is unless, 1) its an open skies route(ie Delta's capacity reductions to Europe) or 2) the DOT allows it, as the case with all of Delta's China rou
181 PSU.DTW.SCE : Realistically based on the feedback from other airlines, it just makes sense to rebid this slot for all carriers. This slot should be for West Coast g
182 strfyr51 : That's Bad theory. Why would United give up an option for a route to a HUB at NRT because Delta flies Haneda?? NH also flies from Haneda to the USA a
183 strfyr51 : Delta HAS no sinister motives, This is actually a darn GOOD Idea! They Tried to make it work at DTW and it didn't if they can't get seattle then they
184 commavia : They would be doing no such thing. United's ATI/JV partner ANA would still continue to provide more than sufficient United/Star connectivity from SEA
185 PSU.DTW.SCE : MSP has less of a chance of working than DTW. It would face the exact same issues as DTW.
186 Polot : I'm not exactly sure what point you are trying to make here. DL also "HAS a LOT of beyond rights out of Narita." In fact, they have more than UA does
187 timf : In regards to HA and UA wanting the slot, are there more HND authorities scheduled to be put up for bids at some point? It's been a couple years since
188 LAXintl : Possibly between 2013-2015 when another 20,000 annual slots will be made available but its up to the Japanese government how they divide up authoritie
189 Flighty : HND is ideal for rapid nonstops. That means large Tokyo demand cities. MSP and DTW are both bad options. The best options are SEA, SFO, LAX and EWR/J
190 Roseflyer : In your list of best options you missed 2 of the 3 largest Tokyo - US routes which are GUM and HNL.
191 mogandoCI : It would be funny if most of the new slots would be these junk yield-killing midnight/6am slots that created nothing but headache for both Euro and U
192 mayor : AND the DOT.......
193 LAXintl : Well Delta on its own decided to submit a follow up pleading to the DOT. Its bottom line is that while the carrier believes the DOT is justified in ap
194 PSU.DTW.SCE : Sounds like a reasonable rebuttal to me. Now its up to the DOT to decide how it wants to handle the matter.
195 strfyr51 : well it looks like things are heating up. UA has stated they would fly the route in 90 Days is allowed to fly it from SFO Per ATWonline.com American h
196 Polot : You just said UA has stated that they can fly it within 90 days.
197 klkla : Because they also have an East Coast route and cannot make the current slots work, either. I'm sure they would like a little flexibility if they can
198 FlyASAGuy2005 : After reading through everything, I don't see the DOT simply allowing DL to transfer the slot to SEA. It will go back out for rebid.
199 strfyr51 : Out of Detriot!! nobody is capable of flying it. UAL will fky ANYTHING out of SFO. I'm surprised though that UAL would consider flying it out of SFO.
200 FlyASAGuy2005 : Flying IAH-HND makes as much sense as flying ATL-HND.
201 Polot : UA doesn't want to fly it out of SEA, that doesn't mean it isn't capable of flying it out of SEA. The DOT is not going to let the change occur just be
202 STT757 : Before the merger CO applied for HND-EWR and HND-GUM.
203 klkla : You're probably right but even if it does I think they still have a good chance of getting it. UA and AA have uphill battle because of ATI with their
204 Post contains links strfyr51 : http://atwonline.com/airports-routes...rjf1251%40yahoo.com&YM_MID=1332027
205 strfyr51 : Not sure if this will stand, I didn't realize Delta wasn't flying the route with much success as they have a Sizeable operation AT NRT the same as Un
206 mayor : Not sure who that would be..........JL is in Oneworld and ANA is in Star.......who does that leave at HND that DL could connect with?
207 strfyr51 : as I look at it Delta does NOT have any real feed opportunities at HND. Skyteam has no member with a sizeable presence in Japan, This must be why the
208 Pellegrine : ANA has routinely commanded higher fares than their american competition for the past 10 or more years.
209 LAXintl : DOT is out with its answer... Sorry Delta, but the department has found that it should conduct a full route proceeding to determine from fresh what th
210 aeroblogger : Good. Lets hope AA/UA or even US can come up with a good proposal.[Edited 2012-08-17 14:40:03]
211 SANFan : ... and, IMHO, it's most definitely the correct one. bb
212 LAXintl : Indeed. IMO this was the best solution. Throw the gates open and let everyone put in their route suggestion. While DL might still have logic with its
213 aeroblogger : You forgot GUM...
214 LAXintl : No one has applied for GUM. UA asked for SFO, and HA HNL. AA asked for flexibility to move its JFK flight to another gateway also, but did not indica
215 wedgetail737 : Guam is a US Territory. Like Puerto Rico, I don't think you need US DOT approval to serve GUM if you it's an US airline.
216 Cubsrule : I would like to see the whole thing rebid, but of course there's no way to make that happen. I think - though I have no way of proving it - that DoT
217 Polot : You need US DOT approval to fly to HND though, and the airline must fly from where the DOT says they can (which is based on where the airline applied
218 MSPNWA : Finally I believe the DOT did the right thing. Here we go again with the applications. It's humorous reading the threads back when the slots were init
219 StuckInCA : and probably what DL expected. Can't hurt to ask, right?
220 AS739BSI : Nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say. If they were losing money, might as well cut the losses.
221 SANFan : I guess this is just about the DL DTW-slot right? The AA JFK-slot isn't somehow going to be included as well (since they indicated they would like to
222 mayor : Doesn't sound like there was much "careful analysis" done on any of those awarded......did the DOT even consider arrival and departure times at HND?
223 LAXintl : Yes its only the now former DL DTW slot. With AA knowing DOTs intention is now by running a new route selection, I doubt AA would be too eager to roc
224 SANFan : That's the way I would interpret the situation as well; I just wanted to clarify. Thanx 'LAX. (Heck, maybe the DOT will send AA an email saying, "Hey
225 SR117 : I think all airlines applying for HND save for Hawaiian are guilty of the same crime. The operations at HND naturally benefit Japanese carriers the m
226 LAXintl : Maybe you don't realize, but ANA cant sent a 77W on the route since its 77W fleet is stretched thin and all based at NRT. Its longhaul capable fleet
227 SR117 : Very interesting info, and puzzling that the route might lose seats despite the strong sales, but I guess yield is more important.
228 peanuts : DL is taking a calculated risk. I can appreciate that in a way as the current situation is nothing to be thrilled about, apparently. They must be reas
229 Cubsrule : I'm not sure I agree because this may be a case where "consumer friendly" and "competition friendly" are not the same. Much of competition law (and m
230 ktachiya : Well it actually was a rushed decision. The company was entering bankruptcy but they needed to start a route to the US from HND with the slots coming
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