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A345 As Long-haul Government Planes?  
User currently onlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

There seem to be plenty of available A345 at cheap prices. Now I don't want to get into an 34x vers 77x war but to me it seems pretty obvious that given their price and their range, they'd make excellent government planes!

Correct me if i'm wrong but government planes are usually lightly used. So acquisition cost is a major concern for them. Secondly government officials are busy people that fly in far flung locations with often an entourage compromised of business people, journalists and other officials. Given the capacity of the plane, it's exceptional range compared to a normal A343, and it's low acquisition cost. Surely there must be a market for them at government level.

I'd go even further and suggest that european leaders could team together and buy 2 or 3 for official use. It's a hell of a plane and whilst over specified in many circumstances, I think it could be a good fit!

What do you think?

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

To me the real question is whether purchasing and maintaining such aircraft for government use (for example for European countries) warrants the strain on taxpayers? It is certainly cheaper to use regular, scheduled flights or just to charter an airplane if officials need to be moved in bulk.

Considering the current obsession with austerity measures, I just can't see this happening.


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 759 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

I would have thought the 345 would appeal as a VIP aircraft to wealthy Middle East indiviuals - those who can't afford the A380.


Regards,
StickShaker


User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4159 times:

Does anyone know how many 345s are sitting idle?

There are a few for sale here:
http://www.controller.com/list/list....TID=1&catid=3&Manu=AIRBUS&setype=1

The cheapest (Two 2007 models) are put up for sale @ $75 mill.

But I guess one should add another 20-30mill for maintenanc/VIP config.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5856 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

It is indeed a possible application, for either wealthy or spendthrift nations.

The 747SP was popular in that role in the Middle East for similar reasons.


User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3493 times:

Being at the "arse end of the earth" (to quote a former prime minister), Australia could probably justify a larger VIP aircraft than the current BBJs. However, given how lightly loaded they normally are, it would be hard to justify a four holer unless is was extremely cheap to purchase, even if it could reach almost anywhere non-stop in VIP config.

Ireally think Oz should be considering A330 VIP aircraft.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3461 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

The 345 is the 74L of this day and age, I expect it will find similar roles to play in the future.


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
The 747SP was popular in that role in the Middle East for similar reasons.

Another advantage the A345 like the 747SP would have in the middle east is good hot air performance. I am no engineer but I read somewhere that for hot and high performance more engines is usually better, which sort of makes sense to me. Four engines having to compress x amount of hot air or two engines having to compress the same amount. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this?

Quoting CO38 (Reply 3):
But I guess one should add another 20-30mill for maintenanc/VIP config.

Actually it will probably be a lot more than that. Outfitting a B757 or A321 will already get you in that ballpark, granted it will have gold fossets and stuff but still. I read in an article that a simple business jet seat will cost 50.000 Dollars and that was 6 years ago.

Quoting smws (Reply 1):
To me the real question is whether purchasing and maintaining such aircraft for government use (for example for European countries) warrants the strain on taxpayers? It is certainly cheaper to use regular, scheduled flights or just to charter an airplane if officials need to be moved in bulk.

I doubt any plane bigger than an A320 can make financial sense for both business and government use. An A320 size aircraft can meet most demand. The ACJ version can be fitted with a decent amount of seats and a conference table and still fly a decent distance. There won't be a whole lot of missions that will require a large capacity aircraft. I think it is mostly a prestige thing. France, Germany, Russia and the US all use these large VIP aircraft as a diplomatic tool to show off their wealth and power. Here in the Netherlands we fly around in a Fokker 70 to show off our budget savvy mindset. For everything else we use the blue Air France planes.

Quoting smws (Reply 1):
Considering the current obsession with austerity measures, I just can't see this happening.

Agreed, in most countries it could mean the end of a political career if you buy one of those.

All that said, if I ever earn hundreds of millions I will be running to Airbus for one of those brand new undelivered 345s they have sitting on the ramp and build me a flying 5 star hotel.  


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting bj87 (Reply 7):
France, Germany, Russia and the US all use these large VIP aircraft as a diplomatic tool to show off their wealth and power. Here in the Netherlands we fly around in a Fokker 70 to show off our budget savvy mindset. For everything else we use the blue Air France planes.

The 2 A343s Germany has replaced aging A310s and that was about time. Compared with what Russia has, these aircraft are spartan. That high ranking government officials who tour the world on duty need a shower and a compartment to sleep is Ok, golden faucetts are not needed and not installed.

Besides the 2 large kets there are A319s and some Gulfstreams, The costs are high but flying regular services can be and is done by ministers when time permitts, it is not a choice for the Chancellor for a good number of reasons.

I know from a country I am doing business with that each time they charter a 767 from their local airline for use of the PM or the President it is about a million US$.. Not sure if that is cheaper than owning.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5015 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2867 times:

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 2):
those who can't afford the A380.

Wish I could afford a A345 let alone a A380!!!

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently onlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5749 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2854 times:
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Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 5):
it would be hard to justify a four holer unless is was extremely cheap to purchase,

Would have to be better than cheap!!
Both the A330 and the BBJ make sense for Aus as the RAAF operates other variants* of both types. A single(or 2) 4 holers of any breed would be a pretty dumb decision, not the first one an Australian government made!!

Considering we already have the BBJ I guess that decision has been made and will stand for some time.

Another consideration is that Aus political leaders have very few urgent meetings in Reykjavík and usually like to stop off for sightseeing... er.. I mean, urgent high level talks so ULH aircraft would not really be needed even from the "arse end of the earth"

Cheers

* Even more variants of the 737 when they finally get around to making the P-8 aquisition official.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

Quoting bj87 (Reply 7):
Another advantage the A345 like the 747SP would have in the middle east is good hot air performance. I am no engineer but I read somewhere that for hot and high performance more engines is usually better, which sort of makes sense to me. Four engines having to compress x amount of hot air or two engines having to compress the same amount. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this?

It's about engine-out performance; if you have an engine failure during takeoff you need to be able to maintain a minimum safe climb rate using the remaining engines; so a twin essentially needs to be able to complete takeoff and climb using one engine whereas a 4-holer only needs to do the same on 3 engines (only 25% performance drop vs 50% for a twin).


User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 10):
Considering we already have the BBJ I guess that decision has been made and will stand for some time.

The BBJs are leased and I understand replacements are under some sort of consideration. ALthough there may be outcries, A330 makes a lot of sense.


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