hope this isn't a duplicate. I couldn't see a current thread. It looks as though 9W have finally openly declared their alliance preference. It will be interesting to see what, if any response, they get from the Government of India.
New Delhi: Naresh Goyal-controlled Jet Airways (India) Ltd, the country’s biggest carrier, has sought government permission to join the world’s largest airline grouping, Star Alliance Services GmbH, putting the aviation ministry in a bit of a spot.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3119 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15972 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter): It will be interesting to see what, if any response, they get from the Government of India.
Bureaucrats are still miffed that someone dared tell them No when Air India wanted to join. I bet on a resounding No, as soon as they have power long enough to type a reply, of course.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7342 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12914 times:
The Indian Government should let Jet Airways join the Star Alliance and not handicap the entire airline industry of India. The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India. When and if Air India can join an alliance it should do so on its on merit. The Star alliance gave AI all the chances it needed to join but couldn't meet their deadline, its time to move on.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 4, posted (9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12704 times:
9W is the gem of the Indian airlines from an alliance perspective. If the GoI doesn't let 9W into *A, it won't just hurt *A and 9W, it will hurt the whole Indian economy. But more likely the GoI will be petty.
Quoting flyhigh@tom (Reply 2): Honestly why is AI still even in the running...they should have failed all the requirements set by *A by now...
AI did. *A requires entry within 90 days with extensions given to 6 months. After 3 years, AI was 'failed.'
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3): The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India.
It is hurting all of India. When there are shortages of seats
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3): The Star alliance gave AI all the chances it needed to join but couldn't meet their deadline, its time to move on.
Given *multiple* chances. AI proved that if informed by *A that they must improve, they won't. Since the GoI has mandated on airline per alliance, all incentive for *A to accommodate AI is gone.
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11133 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The Indian Government should let Jet Airways join the Star Alliance and not handicap the entire airline industry of India. The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India. When and if Air India can join an alliance it should do so on its on merit. The Star alliance gave AI all the chances it needed to join but couldn't meet their deadline, its time to move on.
Totally agreed. By weakening their own carriers, GoI has single-handedly delivered the entire Indian-Europe and India-Americas market to EK/QR on a silver platter.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11025 times:
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): My company did the livery refresh for Jet. The people who did fly Jet for the project said it was a very good airline!
From all the times I flew Jet intra-india, they were by far one of the best carriers I've ever flown. Clean, efficient, and with good customer service.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10961 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7): Totally agreed. By weakening their own carriers, GoI has single-handedly delivered the entire Indian-Europe and India-Americas market to EK/QR on a silver platter.
If let loose, Jet has the real potential to be a top tier global carrier that can compete with SQ/EK/QR. They are actually much better positioned for cut-through to asia/aus than dxb.
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4090 posts, RR: 18 Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10945 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4): 9W is the gem of the Indian airlines from an alliance perspective. If the GoI doesn't let 9W into *A, it won't just hurt *A and 9W, it will hurt the whole Indian economy. But more likely the GoI will be petty.
There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI -- indeed, the GOI would be reckless to allow private carriers to join alliances to the extent that doing so harms the economic prospects of the publicly-owned carrier.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10837 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 10): There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI -- indeed, the GOI would be reckless to allow private carriers to join alliances to the extent that doing so harms the economic prospects of the publicly-owned carrier.
You mean the public carrier who's track record is so bad that it is on many corporations no-fly lists?
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4090 posts, RR: 18 Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10785 times:
Quoting spink (Reply 11): You mean the public carrier who's track record is so bad that it is on many corporations no-fly lists?
Indeed. AI is the way it is due primarily to policy preferences and management selections made by, or acquiesced to, by the GOI. When a national government owns a company, it may operate (or intervene in the operation of) that company in any constitutional manner it desires. More to the point, enabling privately-funded carriers to join alliances while the publicly-owned airline is not similarly situated hurts the people of India, and undermines some of the very policy objectives the existence of Air India achieves.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10773 times:
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?
From a financial perspective, it's a nightmare. Loses money by the billions each year. Partly due to bloated labor costs (think USA airlines before Chapter 11), but also due to chronic mismanagement and government interference. The government interference is usually negative for AI, but occasionally positive (like trying to force AI on *A). Regardless, the interference is almost uniformly harmful to our aviation industry.
From a passenger perspective, it's different - AI is a pretty good quality full-service carrier.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
Delimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1432 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10669 times:
Interesting. I am surprised Jet is being so confrontational given my understanding of Indian politics. Putting the Ministry on the spot like that could end up backfiring on them, no?
That or they already know the answer will be yes and have been instructed to ask.
LAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5085 posts, RR: 48 Reply 15, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10519 times:
Quoting Delimit (Reply 14): That or they already know the answer will be yes and have been instructed to ask.
You may be on to something here. The current aviation minister has in recent past has done away with the policy of first right of refusal to AI on international route allocations.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10442 times:
Quoting Delimit (Reply 14): That or they already know the answer will be yes and have been instructed to ask.
I think you've got it...
The current MoCA has been doing everything it can to hurt AI (and benefit private carriers), like prolonging strike situation, DGCA shakeup, 787 fiasco, etc. This would just fall into that pattern.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10398 times:
Quoting spink (Reply 9): If let loose, Jet has the real potential to be a top tier global carrier that can compete with SQ/EK/QR. They are actually much better positioned for cut-through to asia/aus than dxb.
I think a hypothetical vision of 2 scissor hubs - MUC + NRT - would work for 9W's network. Have 9W fly from multiple Indian cities (DEL, BOM, MAA, BLR, etc) to those 2 airports, and let LH/NH/UA take it from there.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7342 posts, RR: 7 Reply 18, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10017 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4): The era of protectionism for Air India should end, its hurting the whole airline industry of India.
It is hurting all of India. When there are shortages of seats
This is NOT about "too many seats", its about the private airline industry subsidizing the government owned airline. Protectionism is why no A380 are flying to India. IF Emirates & Lufthansa are not such threats then let them fly it to india.
Quoting avek00 (Reply 10): There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI -- indeed, the GOI would be reckless to allow private carriers to join alliances to the extent that doing so harms the economic prospects of the publicly-owned carrier.
Its NOT the Indian Governments Job to help Air India and screw Jet and Kingfisher, the time to have Government owned airlines ended 30 years ago. India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.
LOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 981 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9951 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17): I think a hypothetical vision of 2 scissor hubs - MUC + NRT - would work for 9W's network. Have 9W fly from multiple Indian cities (DEL, BOM, MAA, BLR, etc) to those 2 airports, and let LH/NH/UA take it from there.
Great, but there are very very very few slots open at MUC. And even fewer with desirable times.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9895 times:
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?
Truthfully, it's not as bad as it used to be. But it's a very inconsistent airline. And like any state owned enterprise, is rather universally reviled.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): If the gov is helping support it, it should be another SQ or RG (in her golden days)
You are assuming that the GoI is as efficient and forward-thinking as the Government of Singapore. That is most certainly not the case.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): If the gov got out of the way, would AI go the way of RG?
AI would go the way of Pan Am if the GoI got out of the way.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9804 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7): By weakening their own carriers, GoI has single-handedly delivered the entire Indian-Europe and India-Americas market to EK/QR on a silver platter.
Exactly. Now that EK and QR are established, they are not going to go away.
There is no going back on the Air Service agreements either. With Dubai, the Air Service agreement MoU was tied to an expansion of the Indian Chemical and Phara industries in the mid-East (enabled by Dubai). If Dubai looses the Air Service agreement, India forfeits their trading rights that would destroy tens of thousands of Indian jobs.
Trying to preserve AI is halting India signing new bilaterals as the other parties are demanding extensions of the Air Service agreements in order to expand other business in India. The largest example is Korea auto parts production. The government of Korea will not sign an expanded auto parts bilateral without an expanded air service agreement (partially as Hyundai is insisting on rights for ICN-MAA on the airline of their choice).
It isn't just the Indian air carriers suffering. The whole Indian economy is being hurt trying to save AI.
Quoting spink (Reply 9): Jet has the real potential to be a top tier global carrier that can compete with SQ/EK/QR. They are actually much better positioned for cut-through to asia/aus than dxb.
100% agree. DEL is in a very ideal location. However, with the NEO and MAX, DXB/DOH/AUH will be in narrowbody range of Europe (not A319ER in a long haul configuration, but standard configurations). If 9W is not 'let loose' by the MAX/NEO entry into service, they will have missed an incredible opportunity.
Quoting avek00 (Reply 10): There's nothing petty about GOI insisting on membership for AI
How isn't it? AI was given multiple extensions to meet the *A requirements and they were not met. 90 days is the standard. That will normally be extended to 180 days. AI failed after over 3 years! AI has proven they will never change to meet *A standards. 9W announced they met *A standards after... get this... 30 days!
Put on the *A hat. Which would you want in your alliance? The flexible partner or the one who wants the alliance to change to benefit them?
It is petty for one very good reason. Once the NEO/MAX enter service, India will be in narrowbody range of IST/the new IST. If *A also adds a mid-East partner. Delays are reducing the opportunities for an Indian *A partner. Much of what would have been a great opportunity for AI is now being done by TK.
Time is an important variable in business. The GoI needs to accept *A has moved on and let them choose whom they wish as a partner.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18): India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.
I do not believe the GoI has that level of funds. Heck, they lack the coal to power numerous powerplants. The GoI needs to find its priorities
rwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2140 posts, RR: 7 Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9756 times:
Quoting kann123air (Reply 6): Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
I have never flown Air India, is it that bad?
Yes
I, as well. 4 flights (2 roundtrips JFK/LHR), years apart, all on the same ship. Flight deck crew were accomodating, cabin crew attentive and pleasant. Not bad at all.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13): From a passenger perspective, it's different - AI is a pretty good quality full-service carrier.
The early bird gets the worm, BUT...the second mouse gets the cheese!
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9597 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 19): Oooh boy. Let me get my popcorn....
Good point...
Quoting LOWS (Reply 20): Great, but there are very very very few slots open at MUC. And even fewer with desirable times.
I do not understand why MUC is thrown out for scissor hubs or expansion. It is impacted. New growth will be at the expense of moving existing flights except at less desired times or by luck of one or two slots 'here and there.'
MUC could work for 9W, but only if LH enables it by cutting their flights.
I think 9W would do exceptionally well in *A. *A would benefit by having an Indian partner their existing customers would want to fly. AI just has too far to go before it meets *A expectations (on time performance, moving the schedule to accommodate *A transfers, and seamless ticket sales/codeshares/miles).
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4090 posts, RR: 18 Reply 25, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9794 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18): Its NOT the Indian Governments Job to help Air India and screw Jet and Kingfisher, the time to have Government owned airlines ended 30 years ago. India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.
Quoting ytz (Reply 21): AI would go the way of Pan Am if the GoI got out of the way.
No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.
Can it be run more efficiently and effectively? Absolutely. But to the extent the government's considerations override business considerations, it's absolutely proper to keep AI wholly state-owned, and to reasonably insulate it from private competitors that are not subject to similar constraints.
Naresh Goyal-promoted Jet Airways has to wait for a while before the Ministry of Civil Aviation takes a decision on its application to join the Star Alliance. The government wants the alliance, comprising 27 airlines across the globe, to decide on Air India’s membership before considering other applications.
Presumably by "decide on" they mean "accept AI regardless of whether or not they are fit to join"
I wonder what would happen if *A said "OK, we have decided.. since AI have not got their act together (in spite of numerous very generous extensions of a length which have not been required by any other candidate airline) and in all likelihood never will get their act together, they are officially off our list of potential members... we don't want them".
Perhaps the best face saving solution all round is for 9W to agree to acquire AI for a token amount of say 50 rupee (yes, I know that is way overpriced, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made) , "merge" taking the AI name but shedding everything else that was AI/IC and then enter *A as "Air India". It seems like a win/win solution.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 27, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9932 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 25): Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.
Such as ?
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
LOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 981 posts, RR: 1 Reply 28, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9949 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24): Quoting LOWS (Reply 20):
Great, but there are very very very few slots open at MUC. And even fewer with desirable times.
I do not understand why MUC is thrown out for scissor hubs or expansion. It is impacted. New growth will be at the expense of moving existing flights except at less desired times or by luck of one or two slots 'here and there.'
Tell that to the fine people of München who got to vote about a third MUC runway and said no.
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 29, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9868 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24): I do not understand why MUC is thrown out for scissor hubs or expansion. It is impacted. New growth will be at the expense of moving existing flights except at less desired times or by luck of one or two slots 'here and there.'
MUC could work for 9W, but only if LH enables it by cutting their flights.
If 9W joins Star and uses a European partner as a scissor hub (India - 9W - euro hub - LH/LX/SN/OS - US) model, then there are only certain choices to make :
LIS : only good for south america, particularly Brazil
BRU : under-served currently, but also insufficient onward feed
VIE : only a handful of destinations to the Americas
FRA : LH's golden goose, and they probably don't want 9W to compete with their own FRA-India services unless in a JV
ZRH : potentially could work
MUC : most amount of potential out of the existing choices, plus geographically it's minimal backtrack (if any) to most of western Europe
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 30, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9872 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 25): No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.
They can privatize just like Air Canada, which has very similar national requirements. Air Canada has suffered undoubtedly from these requirements. But it was privatized, and it's surely been a lot cheaper on the national balance sheet than the federal government running the airline itself. By law, Air Canada is required to maintain its head office in Montreal (though most major companies have relocated to Toronto since the 90s), a maintenance base in Winnipeg and a fully bilingual customer servicing crew (cabin crew, counter staff, etc.). All these requirements cost Air Canada. But, they are far cheaper than the government bankrolling the airline.
On the Indian side, I daresay, that many of India's "essential national air service needs" are anything but. Strategic airlift? Why doesn't the IAF have it's own integral capabilities? VIP/VVIP transport? Why can't the IAF do it, like most other major air forces in the world? Airlift, medevac to remote communities? Again, why isn't the IAF or another government owned aviation service (like an air ambulance service) doing this? Service to remote communities? Offer a seat subsidy program. There is absolutely no reason that any of Air India's "essential" duties can't be redistributed to other government entities or programs and the airline run as a purely commercial enterprise leading to its eventual privatization.
Quite frankly, if I was an Indian citizen (and I formerly was one), I would be sincerely worried that the GoI relies so much on AI for any essential service. That's a real weakness. What happens, for example, if AI can't provide serious airlift in a military conflict? The fact that AI is being relied upon indicates a massive lack of capability on the part of the IAF. Of course, we all know why AI won't be privatized easily. What other airline would allow some junior minister to commandeer an entire aircraft to fly his entire family on vacation? All, by sending an email. Heaven forbid, that ministers making a lakh a month actually fly a normally scheduled air service, like government officials in every other part of the world.
What I can't believe, is that people are still defending the massive blackhole of an entity after a power outage that has just revealed how massively weak "India Shining" really is. If they don't start making smart decisions soon, India will go back to the decades of "Hindu growth". The billions sunk into AI would have achieved much more for India if they had gone into strenghthening the national power grid. That embarrasment may well cost billions in investment.
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 614 posts, RR: 2 Reply 31, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9848 times:
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): I have never flown Air India, is it that bad? If the gov is helping support it, it should be another SQ or RG (in her golden days)
Its not. I last flew them in 2010 in J and Y longhaul. Their in-flight product (including catering but minus IFE) they're a couple of notches above UA and LH in both cabins. More alcohol, better catering and a couple of extra inches of legroom in economy (none of the 31" stuff UA and LH peddle). The crew can be inconsistent but no worse than TK - ie some real gems and some real disasters.
The non-inflight product, including operational aspects = total mess at times.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 5): My company did the livery refresh for Jet. The people who did fly Jet for the project said it was a very good airline!
One of my favorite airlines, though their product has deteriorated somewhat over the past couple of years.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18): F Emirates & Lufthansa are not such threats then let them fly it to india.
They're allowed to fly 747s. If I m not mistaken, one of their DEL flights is a 747, the other a 340. They could always just upgauge that 340 to a 747. In any case, LH is getting pushed out of secondary markets in India.
EK is a threat to AI.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18): India needs to privatize Air India and offer early retirement to employees. Help it ONE last time and its on its own.
The solution is simple, but there is no political will.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22): The government of Korea will not sign an expanded auto parts bilateral without an expanded air service agreement (partially as Hyundai is insisting on rights for ICN-MAA on the airline of their choice).
Very interesting.
Quoting avek00 (Reply 25): No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.
IIRC, IT and 9W are also required to fly certain routes, regardless of whether or not they are profitable. Which suggests that your argument is very questionable.
Quoting avek00 (Reply 25): Absolutely. But to the extent the government's considerations override business considerations, it's absolutely proper to keep AI wholly state-owned, and to reasonably insulate it from private competitors that are not subject to similar constraints.
I hope you're joking. They're not insulating it from competition. They're using taxpayer money to kill the competition. There's a difference. Is there any need for a government airline? Give me an example of one service that AI is providing that no other airline can provide.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 32, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9823 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26): I wonder what would happen if *A said "OK, we have decided.. since AI have not got their act together (in spite of numerous very generous extensions of a length which have not been required by any other candidate airline) and in all likelihood never will get their act together, they are officially off our list of potential members... we don't want them".
I think, as a minimum, the GoI will want the 10 million Euros or whatever they paid as a joining fee, to be returned. Plus, they'll want about $100 billion dollars in compensation for lost business if the 787 debacle is anything to go by. Don't you know? AI would have been bigger than EK by now if all of *A had just adapated to AI and let them in.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26): Perhaps the best face saving solution all round is for 9W to agree to acquire AI for a token amount of say 50 rupee (yes, I know that is way overpriced, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made) , "merge" taking the AI name but shedding everything else that was AI/IC and then enter *A as "Air India". It seems like a win/win solution.
The only way any takeover would succeed is if the entity buying AI was allowed to fire every AI employee, ditch the pensioners, and get express legislation that forbids any government official or politician from imposing on AI at all. That's not going to happen. So anything less than actually getting paid $5 billion to take over AI is too much (I'd say $10 billion...but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here).
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 33, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9812 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 25): No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time.
Why? India could set up an essential air service bidding process, analogous to what the US has, and get rid of the state airline. It would be far cheaper than keeping AI running and the money saved could be used to save the GoI bond rating and even buy essential stuff. Like coal.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26): The government wants the alliance, comprising 27 airlines across the globe, to decide on Air India’s membership before considering other applications.
Huh? *A decided. I guess it is time to stamp the application with a big fat "F" and hand it back.
One of the problems is there isn't a precedent for keeping or returning the application fee. No other airline botched the process. The fee didn't cover *A expenses, so they don't have the money to return. AI certainly needs every penny...
Quoting LOWS (Reply 28): Tell that to the fine people of München who got to vote about a third MUC runway and said no.
I participated in that thread. Their loss. Most of the capacity will be met with Istanbul's new airport or DXB/DOH/AUH. Life moves on... The citizens of MUC just voted the jobs elsewhere. Time will tell how wise of a decision that was.
London vetoed the 3rd runway too. FRA now has a night curfew. The growth will happen somewhere...
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26): in spite of numerous very generous extensions of a length which have not been required by any other candidate airline
I notice how that isn't discussed. AI is now the poster child for 'stick to the timeline or else.'
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26): Perhaps the best face saving solution all round is for 9W to agree to acquire AI for a token amount of say 50 rupee
What about AI's debt? So and so's cousin employed by AI? There the AI/IA merger proves that there is no benefit. 9W must stay clear of anything AI to have a hope of survival.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7342 posts, RR: 7 Reply 36, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9650 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 21): Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):If the gov got out of the way, would AI go the way of RG?
AI would go the way of Pan Am if the GoI got out of the way.
PA served its purpose, it was sad to see it decline from a two ocean airline to a Caribean airline based in Miami. PA was NOT a government owned airline as many non-American think it was. It was the US Governments policy of giving international routes to all airlines that essentially killed PA. Delta and Braniff from Atlanta and Dallas to Gatwick, was the kind of competition PA tried to kill. Buying National was a bad deal but selling Asia to United, lockerbie and selling LHR to UA is what in the end killed Pan AM.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 31): e allowed to fly 747s. If I m not mistaken, one of their DEL flights is a 747, the other a 340. They could always just upgauge that 340 to a 747. In any case, LH is getting pushed out of secondary markets in India.
the 747 is yesterdays airplane why don't you say left fly Dc-10's. Today its 777, A330 and A380's. And what is Air India's current long haul plane , why the 777-300ER.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 37, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9545 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36): PA served its purpose, it was sad to see it decline from a two ocean airline to a Caribean airline based in Miami. PA was NOT a government owned airline as many non-American think it was.
Apologies. Never meant to imply that PA was government owned.
I just meant that AI would be bankrupt if the GoI left it to its own devices.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9437 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 12):
Indeed. AI is the way it is due primarily to policy preferences and management selections made by, or acquiesced to, by the GOI. When a national government owns a company, it may operate (or intervene in the operation of) that company in any constitutional manner it desires. More to the point, enabling privately-funded carriers to join alliances while the publicly-owned airline is not similarly situated hurts the people of India, and undermines some of the very policy objectives the existence of Air India achieves.
My point being that if an airline is blackballed by a vast number of major corporations, there is simply no way it is ever going to get into an alliance. It doesn't matter what the government wants. By taking their current stance they are hurting the people of India more than if they just outright killed AI.
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 614 posts, RR: 2 Reply 39, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9269 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36): the 747 is yesterdays airplane why don't you say left fly Dc-10's. Today its 777, A330 and A380's. And what is Air India's current long haul plane , why the 777-300ER.
What do DC-10s have to do with anything? LH currently (as in right now) flies a 744 and a 340 (I think). If they re so worried about capacity, they can upgauge the 340 to a 744. Besides, they've got 748s coming, so I don't see the issue. They can always use that to upgauge their 340 or 330 or whatever they're using.
To be honest, I m simply applying LH's criteria for controlling EK access to Germany to LH in India. They have multiple cities. They have large enough aircraft (which they re not using). The Germany-India market is, I suspect, smaller than the India-UAE market. I could make a case for EK 380s, but for Germany...well, why? LH opposes bilateral revisions when it comes to Germany, so I don't see why it shouldn't get a taste of its own medicine in India.
And then theres that small issue with LH putting all of its eggs in the wrong basket and cozying up to AI in the first place. Much good that did them. Now they're at the recieving end of India's bureaucratic ire as well. IN other words, I wont be holding my breath. SQ, EK and BA 380s will probably make it into India before LH does.
AI is the 77W I think. As is 9W. Whats your point?
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9031 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24): AI just has too far to go before it meets *A expectations (on time performance, moving the schedule to accommodate *A transfers, and seamless ticket sales/codeshares/miles).
AI's OTP is over 80%. There are many *A carriers which have far less than 80% OTPs. AI operationally may not be gold standard, but there are far worse alliance member carriers out there
AI's schedule as it is is optimized fairly well for *A international - AI domestic connections (I do this all the time). Moving schedules for international leg would undoubedly happen after AI joined *A and started cooperating for feed. Until then, there is no need for AI to change its schedule.
AI's ticket sales, codeshares, and miles are all fairly seamless as well. AI in fact credits miles the fastest - I've never waited longer than 2 days for my miles to credit in the last 50+ segments... Website has been fully upgraded to alliance standard as well, as it has been for almost 2 years now.
AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
Naresh Goyal-promoted Jet Airways has to wait for a while before the Ministry of Civil Aviation takes a decision on its application to join the Star Alliance. The government wants the alliance, comprising 27 airlines across the globe, to decide on Air India’s membership before considering other applications.
Presumably by "decide on" they mean "accept AI regardless of whether or not they are fit to join"
Well, no. AI's application is currently "suspended." MoCA wants AI to either be "rejected" or "accepted" - as long as AI's application is pending, *A cannot invite/accept another carrier, because the Government of India has stated that only 1 carrier can be in a single alliance for (valid) anti-monopolistic reasons.
This is not a new position.
Quoting ytz (Reply 30): On the Indian side, I daresay, that many of India's "essential national air service needs" are anything but. Strategic airlift? Why doesn't the IAF have it's own integral capabilities? VIP/VVIP transport? Why can't the IAF do it, like most other major air forces in the world? Airlift, medevac to remote communities? Again, why isn't the IAF or another government owned aviation service (like an air ambulance service) doing this? Service to remote communities? Offer a seat subsidy program. There is absolutely no reason that any of Air India's "essential" duties can't be redistributed to other government entities or programs and the airline run as a purely commercial enterprise leading to its eventual privatization.
I agree somewhat. While I agree that many of the current "essential air service needs" that AI takes care of could be better served by other mechanisms, I don't agree that there are no essential air service needs which AI could take care of.
Most notably, I fully support using government funds to fund foreign policy initiatives, assuming the Ministry of Extermal Affairs (and Ministry of Home Affairs) can get themselves together and utilize the carrier properly.
CA's service to FNJ and TK's service to MGQ are notable examples of how flag carriers can further foreign policy initiatives, build and strengthen trade links, etc. These kinds of routes would not be viable without the government backbone supporting the service - if these airlines were run for purely commercial reasons, then they lose the strategic advantages that a flag carrier comes with.
Another advantage is that AI will support indigenous technological advancement - the current HAL/NAL passenger aircraft project (RTA-70), which will improve India's aviation technology, is only viable because they know that AI is a guaranteed order. AI is in effect bringing our aircraft building technology forward by virtue of being state owned.
The Air India which loses money by the planeload flying 77Ws to Chicago and Toronto is not the Air India which deserves support. It's the AI which flies to Kabul and Yangon, to Kargil and Leh, to Nairobi and Dakar, and from the Gulf to the likes of IXE and CCJ bringing dirt poor migrant traffic back home which deserves support.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 41, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8858 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 35): I'm all for Europe's obstinence. I'm hoping that this will drive more direct flights to North America.
Out of curiosity, from where? ULH from India lacks enough high yield traffic to pay for the higher CASM of ULH. I see the flights shifting to IST and BER as they are close enough to North America for very economical 787, A350, 77W, 748I, and A380 flights (not the higher CASM 77L). Then again, the next efficiency improvement of the 77W (not even the 77X) will really help mid-east to North-America costs, but not India to North-America.
If India were to ever resolve issues with the bilaterals with Korea, I could see ICN for the North America west coast too.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.
More or less means not ready. *A has 80 criteria to join. I'd love to see how AI 'racks and stacks' against the 80 criteria:
"NEW DELHI, India - July 31st, 2011 - The member airlines of the Star Alliance network and Air India have jointly concluded that the integration of Air India into the global airline alliance will be suspended. This is due to the fact that Air India has not met the minimum joining conditions that were contractually agreed in December 2007.
Following a recent review of the status of Air India's application at a meeting held between the Indian Ministry for Civil Aviation, Star Alliance CEO, Jaan Albrecht and the Air India CMD, Arvind Jadhav, the decision to suspend has received subsequent confirmation by the Star Alliance Chief Executive Board.
Star Alliance CEO, Jaan Albrecht said: "With the collective decision to put the integration efforts on hold today we aim to contribute to Air India's flexibility to concentrate on its ongoing strategic reorientation. In this process our member carriers will continue to provide assistance to Air India wherever required."
Existing bilateral relationships with Star Alliance member airlines are not affected by this decision, which also leaves room to discuss a potential Alliance membership at a future stage, if deemed appropriate by both parties."
from: http://www.staralliance.com/en/press/starairindia-prp/
In a few years the NEO and MAX will have the range to service almost all of India from IST (MAA would be a stretch for a narrowbody, but a few widebody destinations should work). Thus, there is no reason for *A to roll over. 9W would add value to the alliance. AI...
As already noted:
Quoting spink (Reply 38): My point being that if an airline is blackballed by a vast number of major corporations, there is simply no way it is ever going to get into an alliance. It doesn't matter what the government wants. By taking their current stance they are hurting the people of India more than if they just outright killed AI.
Due to poor service, numerous strikes, and other issues AI no longer adds the value to an alliance they would have in 2007. Its time for everyone to let go of the idea if AI in *A. It isn't going to happen. That hope ended a year ago. Let 9W join *A and let AI and 6E negotiate for another alliance.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8845 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41): More or less means not ready. *A has 80 criteria to join. I'd love to see how AI 'racks and stacks' against the 80 criteria:
AI claims that they are 80/80:
Quote:
Two officials at the civil aviation ministry said the rejection came after the ministry didn’t agree to a demand from the alliance to give Jet Airways (India) Ltd the go-ahead to join the grouping.
“Star Alliance told us that they will draft a letter on behalf of Jet Airways which the ministry needs to sign as a no-objection certificate for Jet to also be a Star member before Star gives a green signal for Air India to join,” a top ministry official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “This was an atrocious demand and was completely rejected.”
A second ministry official, who also did not want to be named, confirmed the demand: “They said either we take Jet and Air India or none is welcome.” The row could escalate, with the Indian authorities planning to issue an official statement, he said. “We will reply appropriately to Star. As far as we are concerned, Star can forget India,” he added.
Gerhard Girkinger, chief project manager at Star Alliance, who has been supervising the integration process with Air India, wrote to the carrier on 30 July and said that much of the work was “done”.
“I can confirm the status of the integration based on the attached spreadsheets. From my perspective, this means we are basically done although I need formal sign-off. All the other components depend on a joining date,” Girkinger wrote.
Klick did not deny the communication. “Notwithstanding the fact that Air India must have breached our confidentiality agreement with such information, I can confirm the following: The decision to accept compliance to the full set of minimum joining conditions as contractually agreed to in 2007 is not taken/confirmed by a project manager in the Star Alliance Service GmbH responsible for the implementation of a certain set of so-called components,” he said.
The people I know at AI have also confirmed that AI is *A compliant, with the exception of a few FFP issues which could only be resolved after an official entrance date was announced.
And on a personal note, as a passenger, I have watched AI's IT go from incredibly poor to fairly usable. At least the passenger interface upgrades definitely happened.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
Nimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3076 posts, RR: 9 Reply 43, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8814 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 25): No way India can go without a state-owned carrier at this time. Like it or not, Air India meets various essential national air service needs that the private carriers simply won't handle to the same degree.
I disagree. AI does not meet a single need of the country - not to improve tourist traffic, not to cater to the gulf traffic, not to cater to the IT traffic etc. on the international front. On the domestic front either - they don't serve any purpose at all.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 44, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8775 times:
Then we have incompatible press releases. I'm not finding the links now, but I recall reading at the time how AI still had a few IT issues a year ago.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42): I have watched AI's IT go from incredibly poor to fairly usable. At least the passenger interface upgrades definitely happened.
That I have heard. But the question is, what was ready a year and a day ago?
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42): “Star Alliance told us that they will draft a letter on behalf of Jet Airways which the ministry needs to sign as a no-objection certificate for Jet to also be a Star member before Star gives a green signal for Air India to join,” a top ministry official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “This was an atrocious demand and was completely rejected.”
I realize you are quoting, but why is that an atrocious demand? The reality is that 9W is preferred by enough customers to be a stronger parter for *A.
I'd like to see *one* Indian airline join an alliance ASAP. I guess that will be 6E with Skyteam or OW.
If I were a *A executive, this reply would not dissuade me from pursuing 9W. I would press for a vote instead of a dismissal.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8764 times:
Quoting Nimish (Reply 43): I disagree. AI does not meet a single need of the country - not to improve tourist traffic, not to cater to the gulf traffic, not to cater to the IT traffic etc. on the international front. On the domestic front either - they don't serve any purpose at all.
I disagree here.
AI does not improve tourist traffic, but that is not really an aim of AI. AI certainly does cater to gulf traffic, as anyone in my hometown of IXE will tell you. IX is the best thing since sliced bread to the migrant workers who can now see their families more often than ever before (once a year or so). Catering to IT traffic isn't really an aim of AI either.
AI does carry out quite a few functions... As YTZ mentioned, there are things like strategic airlift, VIP transport, airlift, medvac capabilities, etc. etc. Saying that these functions would be more efficiently carried out in other ways (like through IAF) is certainly valid, but sadly the reality cannot change overnight, especially when you include the Indian bureaucracy.
And AI certainly does provide some policy functions, such as providing service to KBL and RGN (2 destinations off the top of my head), which improves strategic ties, economic ties, etc. etc. SG is now launching KBL, but when it was an immature market, there is no chance a private carrier would have tried it.
AI has a long way to improve, and the current utility of the carrier is not particularly great, but to say that it is utterly useless isn't quite accurate. And if used properly, AI could be a great tool. Perhaps asking for AI to be used properly by GoI is asking too much though....
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Then we have incompatible press releases.
We do .
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44): I'm not finding the links now, but I recall reading at the time how AI still had a few IT issues a year ago.
AI's IT is compliant. It has been compliant for over a year now. That's all I can say...
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44): That I have heard. But the question is, what was ready a year and a day ago?
Yeah, the improvements have been coming steadily, but the major upgrade happened in late 2010.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44): I realize you are quoting, but why is that an atrocious demand? The reality is that 9W is preferred by enough customers to be a stronger parter for *A.
It's an atrocious demand because it's blackmail. *A invited AI with the understanding that AI would be the exclusive Indian carrier (go back to press releases when the announcement first happened). These kinds of moves are not in good faith.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 46, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8730 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 45): It's an atrocious demand because it's blackmail. *A invited AI with the understanding that AI would be the exclusive Indian carrier (go back to press releases when the announcement first happened). These kinds of moves are not in good faith.
the press release on the AI website doesn't mention anything about exclusivity
Star Alliance Chief Executive Board Approved Membership.
At their annual Board Meeting, the CEO’s of the Star Alliance member airlines have today voted to accept the application of Air India to become a future member of the alliance.Glenn Tilton, Chairman and CEO of United Airlines, in his capacity as the Chairman of Meeting said: “India has long been on the radar of Star Alliance; after all it is one of the world’s fastest growing economies and aviation markets. Having now come to an agreement with Air India makes us the first airline alliance to secure a member in India, which will enable our customers to receive more benefits when travelling to, from and within India in the future.”
“Air India is delighted in being invited to join Star Alliance. This invitation comes in the wake of Air India’s merger with India’s leading domestic carrier Indian Airlines, thus making Air India the prime player in the Indian subcontinent. In addition, the recently announced fleet expansion of over 100 aircraft will help Air India serve the travelling public better in terms of global reach and services. In being selected as a future Star Alliance member, Air India will add value to passengers patronising member airlines of the alliance”, said Vasudevan Thulasidas, Chairman and Managing Director, Air India.
The specialised teams at Air India, Star Alliance and its member carriers will now be working on the integration process, which once completed, will make Air India a part of the Star Alliance network, currently consisting of 19 members.
The press release has been removed from the Star Alliance website, but I don't recall any mention of exclusivity in that release either... usually the woring of the release on the Star website and the airline website are more or less identical.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 47, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8429 times:
Question,
What legal rights of appeal from this decision does 9W have? Obviously they shouldn't sit still. Or is the GoI that formal? What is the next step for Jet? Is there a court they may file a lawsuit?
That AI would comply with admittance rules to the alliance in 2008.
*A often has competing members. That is the nature of joining the largest alliance.
Anyway, outside of the GoI, I do not hear anything about AI and *A anymore. The topic is 9W and *A and I see no legitimate reason why 9W shouldn't join. If the GoI holds grudges... Well they should read an economics book called "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" by Thomas Freedman. It goes into why societies that fixate on grudges instead of growth... don't grow as quick!
There are far more important issues to worry about for the GoI now and in the next year due to waves of economic uncertainty.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8316 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 46): The press release has been removed from the Star Alliance website, but I don't recall any mention of exclusivity in that release either... usually the woring of the release on the Star website and the airline website are more or less identical.
I'll have to look, but I vividly remember press releases both from AI and Star which used the word exclusive multiple times... Perhaps not the first one, but probably more like 2009?
I'll try to find the link when I get home this evening...
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47): What legal rights of appeal from this decision does 9W have? Obviously they shouldn't sit still. Or is the GoI that formal? What is the next step for Jet? Is there a court they may file a lawsuit?
Not really. They fall under the purview of MoCA, and the ministry has not made an unreasonably change in policy or unfairly targeted 9W...
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
goacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 72 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8186 times:
One should take aerobloggers pro-AI comments with a large boulder of salt. While AI's inflight product is good, they are extremely unreliable and being state protected operation, have a dont give sh$% about the customer attitude. I have made the mistake of believing the Kool Aid that AI has improved, but have never had an on-time experience with them in the last 10 years. My advice to anyone is DONT DO IT - even if their rates are the lowest (which it often is). One has to wonder why their India market share is approaching single digits today after having a sheer monopoly just 2 decades ago and despite 10's of billions of dollars in government support. The customer knows best! It would be best for India if AI just ceased to exist, but politicians continue to use this airline as their plaything.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): AI's OTP is over 80%. There are many *A carriers which have far less than 80% OTPs. AI operationally may not be gold standard, but there are far worse alliance member carriers out there
AI's schedule as it is is optimized fairly well for *A international - AI domestic connections (I do this all the time). Moving schedules for international leg would undoubedly happen after AI joined *A and started cooperating for feed. Until then, there is no need for AI to change its schedule.
AI's ticket sales, codeshares, and miles are all fairly seamless as well. AI in fact credits miles the fastest - I've never waited longer than 2 days for my miles to credit in the last 50+ segments... Website has been fully upgraded to alliance standard as well, as it has been for almost 2 years now.
AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 50, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7965 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): CA's service to FNJ and TK's service to MGQ are notable examples of how flag carriers can further foreign policy initiatives, build and strengthen trade links, etc. These kinds of routes would not be viable without the government backbone supporting the service - if these airlines were run for purely commercial reasons, then they lose the strategic advantages that a flag carrier comes with.
Does the airline need to be a state owned enterprise to do this? Why can't the government simply pay a carrier or enter a Joint Venture where strategic objectives like this are concerned? Great example. The US military. They have a standing offer with several major US airlines. It allows them to call up capacity on demand. For example, charter an aircraft from United on short notice. The companies get paid for this. And the Pentagon requires all US military personnel to fly an American carrier whenever possible, in return. The US Government doesn't need to own AA or UA to achieve its objectives. What's different about India?
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): Another advantage is that AI will support indigenous technological advancement - the current HAL/NAL passenger aircraft project (RTA-70), which will improve India's aviation technology, is only viable because they know that AI is a guaranteed order. AI is in effect bringing our aircraft building technology forward by virtue of being state owned.
First off, if you are only relying on the state carrier to launch an airplane, (that too, one like AI), your product will never go anywhere. OEMs should be making products with broad commercial success in mind right from the start.
Next, why are HAL/NAL state owned enterprises? Still? Boeing isn't. Lockheed Martin isn't. And I do believe most of EADS isn't. Making them tailor products to the state owned carrier virtually ensures failure. And really, if AI is forced to buy something, you can bet HAL/NAL is bending to accomodate their specific requirements.
Last on this point, again, why can't this be done commercially? The government could again subsidize the purchase to create a market for HAL/NAL. Why own a carrier to do this? Why not offer subsidies to several Indian carriers to induct the aircraft?
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): The Air India which loses money by the planeload flying 77Ws to Chicago and Toronto is not the Air India which deserves support. It's the AI which flies to Kabul and Yangon, to Kargil and Leh, to Nairobi and Dakar, and from the Gulf to the likes of IXE and CCJ bringing dirt poor migrant traffic back home which deserves support.
As a person of Mangalorean origin, I can tell you that AI Express DXB-IXE flights are anything but cheap. Yet, the loads are more than decent. They don't need the support. The only support AI needs is perhaps to operate to those remote communities like Kargil and Leh. And even then, why deal with AI? Really, the government should be contracting with a small local airline that flies ATR-42s or smaller up there.
I fully understand the remote communities requirement. Canada faces a far, far harsher reality. Canada is the size of a continent. The Arctic is the size of Europe. There are no year-round usable roads up north. And even those that exist, are gravel and treacherous with no support available for hundreds of kilometres at a time. Aviation is literally a lifeline up north. Yet, you don't see the GoC pushing AC to do service up north all the time. The government usually contracts with 7F or JV, small local operators or uses RCAF assets (CC-138 Twin Otters) to accomplish its goals. And I can assure you, this a lot more demanding than anything India faces. The military has to spend millions every summer just to get air cadets, scouts, guides, etc. to summer camps. Often employing 10 hr long, multi-hop flights. Yet, nobody sees the need here for the government own an airline.
I could see DEL being quite a decent hub for India-North America traffic. YVR, YYZ, YUL, BOS, ORD, EWR, JFK, SEA, SFO. I think there are lots of opportunities to be had here with the 787. Maybe even some of those from BOM.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41): Then again, the next efficiency improvement of the 77W (not even the 77X) will really help mid-east to North-America costs, but not India to North-America.
I don't know anything about the upgrades. But I'm curious why you think it won't help India-NA direct flights.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 45): Saying that these functions would be more efficiently carried out in other ways (like through IAF) is certainly valid, but sadly the reality cannot change overnight, especially when you include the Indian bureaucracy.
Uggggh. You misunderstand me. The IAF is about to induct 10 C-17s. That's more than the RAF which uses them at distances the IAF would never even ponder. Add a half dozen C-130Js and possibly another half dozen. And a superb indigenous airlifter (HAL Il-214 MTA). The IAF will have strategic and tactical airlift capabalities coming out the wazoo in as little as 2-3 years. Zero excuse to rely on Air India for anything. IAF strategic planners are smart enough to know that relying on Air India in any war would be a massive strategic risk.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 45): And AI certainly does provide some policy functions, such as providing service to KBL and RGN (2 destinations off the top of my head), which improves strategic ties, economic ties, etc. etc. SG is now launching KBL, but when it was an immature market, there is no chance a private carrier would have tried it.
Again. Why could this not be done using economic incentives? Why only AI? Let's have several Indian carriers flying those routes. Losing billions annually to serve a strategic objective that should cost millions is the height of idiocy. For how much AI loses, the GoI could fund free daily flights to every city deemed strategic and still have money leftover.
Send suitcases of cash to the correct residence and auxiliary electronic payments to the correct Swiss bank accounts.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47): Is there a court they may file a lawsuit?
Nope. You can't sue over government policy. No matter how discriminatory, governments are well within their rights to create discrimnatory economic policy. There's no law against bad policy and governance. That's what elections and revolutions are for.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47): There are far more important issues to worry about for the GoI now and in the next year due to waves of economic uncertainty.
This is India. They'd rather spend billions to prop up a blackhole of an airline than fix the infrastructure grid, address major public health issues, build infrastructure, etc. All those other things benefit the public. But the blackhole that is AI can be used as a private charter airline for ministers. So naturally, AI wins. And you'll get all sorts of apologists arguing over how AI is better off as a protected SOE.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 54, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7699 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 48): They fall under the purview of MoCA, and the ministry has not made an unreasonably change in policy or unfairly targeted 9W..
Ok. So 9W is left with what, a media campaign? The idea that they should sit and accept the answer is absurd. If there is no legal recourse, then it is time to change tactics.
If I was 9W, I'd start a billboard campain on the roads into major Indian airports and inside of DEL and BOM airports touting the advantages of them entering *A. Now hire someone *far* better at advertising than myself, but sell:
"Jet in Star Alliance, ready today to bring you the world.*"
Buy articles in newspapers. Pay one of those companies that does an "astroturf" internet campaign, hire a flashmob to do a Star Alliance Dance...
And do it in concert with LH, UA, AC, and other star alliance partners.
Now some of this will require 9W to truly become *A ready. NOW! Run the *A audit and publish the results. Compare financials
*Pending GoI approval
I wonder if this CO condition to joining *A impacted AI: "an inability to join or a delay in joining Star Alliance due to a lack of applicable approvals or difficulty in satisfying entrance requirements, including the requirement that we enter into certain bilateral agreements with each member of Star Alliance; " http://google.brand.edgar-online.com...4-223138&SessionID=iDgaW6aPNi4F0P7
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7592 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
Ok. So 9W is left with what, a media campaign? The idea that they should sit and accept the answer is absurd. If there is no legal recourse, then it is time to change tactics.
If I was 9W, I'd start a billboard campain on the roads into major Indian airports and inside of DEL and BOM airports touting the advantages of them entering *A. Now hire someone *far* better at advertising than myself, but sell:
"Jet in Star Alliance, ready today to bring you the world.*"
Buy articles in newspapers. Pay one of those companies that does an "astroturf" internet campaign, hire a flashmob to do a Star Alliance Dance...
And do it in concert with LH, UA, AC, and other star alliance partners.
Now some of this will require 9W to truly become *A ready. NOW! Run the *A audit and publish the results. Compare financials
*Pending GoI approval
This money would be far better spent doing what ytz suggested:
Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
Send suitcases of cash to the correct residence and auxiliary electronic payments to the correct Swiss bank accounts.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 56, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7545 times:
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 55): This money would be far better spent doing what ytz suggested:
Quoting ytz (Reply 52):
Send suitcases of cash to the correct residence and auxiliary electronic payments to the correct Swiss bank accounts.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7535 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56): I didn't want to be that cynical on GoI process.
cynicism never hurts in India...
Some people rail on about the amount of money which AI wastes, but the money which the "private" carriers waste is a problem for the taxpayers of India too.
A significant amount of funding which airlines (like other very large investments) get in India is black money, sourced from corrupt politicians. So in a sense, every carrier is state-controlled and state-funded. It's a truly sad state of affairs.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
vin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 247 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7451 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54): Ok. So 9W is left with what, a media campaign? The idea that they should sit and accept the answer is absurd. If there is no legal recourse, then it is time to change tactics.
If I was 9W, I'd start a billboard campain on the roads into major Indian airports and inside of DEL and BOM airports touting the advantages of them entering *A. Now hire someone *far* better at advertising than myself, but sell:
"Jet in Star Alliance, ready today to bring you the world.*"
Buy articles in newspapers. Pay one of those companies that does an "astroturf" internet campaign, hire a flashmob to do a Star Alliance Dance...
And do it in concert with LH, UA, AC, and other star alliance partners.
Now some of this will require 9W to truly become *A ready. NOW! Run the *A audit and publish the results. Compare financials
Not worth much; 9W is far better off relying on Naresh Goyals contacts in the Av Ministry (he is very well connected).
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
I didn't want to be that cynical on GoI process.
Lightsaber
Anything involving GoI and aviation requires cynicism.
Some people rail on about the amount of money which AI wastes, but the money which the "private" carriers waste is a problem for the taxpayers of India too.
A significant amount of funding which airlines (like other very large investments) get in India is black money, sourced from corrupt politicians. So in a sense, every carrier is state-controlled and state-funded. It's a truly sad state of affairs.
But how many private carriers are getting Rs. 30,000 CRORE from GoI?
Air India is a black hole regardless of what the private carriers do; in a vacuum where Air India was 75% of its current size domestically, and 60% internationally (focusing on Gulf + Asia + LHR), each and every private carrier would be profitable.
aa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3338 posts, RR: 9 Reply 59, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7309 times:
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 31): IIRC, IT and 9W are also required to fly certain routes, regardless of whether or not they are profitable. Which suggests that your argument is very questionable.
You're right. India has a capacity distribution scheme which requires X% of available seat kilometers to fly between second tier cities (pretty much routes other than those between Mumbai, New Delhi, Bangalore and Hyderabad) and X% on third tier cities (Andaman and Nicobar and the far Northeast).
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): AI has plenty of issues to sort out to fix its financial viability, but it is more or less compliant for alliance membership, whether *A or otherwise.
Well Star Alliance doesn't seem to think so and they're really the only opinion that matters in this issue.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): CA's service to FNJ and TK's service to MGQ are notable examples of how flag carriers can further foreign policy initiatives, build and strengthen trade links, etc. These kinds of routes would not be viable without the government backbone supporting the service - if these airlines were run for purely commercial reasons, then they lose the strategic advantages that a flag carrier comes with.
But you can write a check to Jet or Kingfisher and have them fly the route for you. It accomplishes the same goal but is a much more efficient way of doing things.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): Another advantage is that AI will support indigenous technological advancement - the current HAL/NAL passenger aircraft project (RTA-70), which will improve India's aviation technology, is only viable because they know that AI is a guaranteed order. AI is in effect bringing our aircraft building technology forward by virtue of being state owned.
Again, there's a better way to do this. Subsidize HAL/NAL, give Indian carriers tax breaks for purchasing their aircraft or something else. While I certainly see the benefit of infant industry protections, running a wildly inefficient state carrier at the expense of private carriers isn't the way to go about this.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 40): The Air India which loses money by the planeload flying 77Ws to Chicago and Toronto is not the Air India which deserves support. It's the AI which flies to Kabul and Yangon, to Kargil and Leh, to Nairobi and Dakar, and from the Gulf to the likes of IXE and CCJ bringing dirt poor migrant traffic back home which deserves support.
Give carriers landing fee breaks if they fly in from certain Gulf cities, or give them a check in order to do so.
At one point, governments around the world thought babying running state owned carriers was the best way to do things. We know that isn't the case now. The best way is to either a) find oil, start an airline with that money and then let it do its things or b) allow a competitive market.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 45): It's an atrocious demand because it's blackmail. *A invited AI with the understanding that AI would be the exclusive Indian carrier (go back to press releases when the announcement first happened). These kinds of moves are not in good faith.
I really can't imagine this being the case. Besides, business models change. United was the only US carrier in *A and then US Airways wanted to join. Markets aren't static.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 60, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7289 times:
Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 58): and 60% internationally (focusing on Gulf + Asia + LHR)
Didn't AI do that thanks to the pilot strike?
Quoting aa757first (Reply 59): Well Star Alliance doesn't seem to think so and they're really the only opinion that matters in this issue.
To be more precise, 10 of 27 were willing to vote no. How many saw how much effort AI was forcing *A to expend just for entry and said 'they'll drag us all down!'
Quoting aa757first (Reply 59): But you can write a check to Jet or Kingfisher and have them fly the route for you. It accomplishes the same goal but is a much more efficient way of doing things.
Time for India to have an essential air service. While a pork barrel, it would be cheaper than the black hold called AI.
Quoting aa757first (Reply 59): I really can't imagine this being the case. Besides, business models change. United was the only US carrier in *A and then US Airways wanted to join. Markets aren't static.
That is one thing I notice on talking Indian aviation, many posters talk as if the market was static. It has been 5 years since the invitation to AI was extended by *A. Everyone should think back how much has changed in 5 years. A global real estate bubble popped. Trade power shifted. New hubs now dominate certain markets.
And in 2007, AI was a significant player in Indian aviation. Now? It can be bypassed.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7129 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 30): What I can't believe, is that people are still defending the massive blackhole of an entity after a power outage that has just revealed how massively weak "India Shining" really is. If they don't start making smart decisions soon, India will go back to the decades of "Hindu growth". The billions sunk into AI would have achieved much more for India if they had gone into strenghthening the national power grid. That embarrasment may well cost billions in investment.
I'm pretty sure the power outages will have minimal impact of foreign investment. As it is and has been for years, every foreign company that builds something in India sets up their own on campus co-generation equipment that is generally designed to supply all power needs for 48-96 hours.
Quoting ytz (Reply 50): The only support AI needs is perhaps to operate to those remote communities like Kargil and Leh.
When I last went to Leh there didn't seem to be an issue. The flights were full and not that cheap (at least compared to the rest of intra-india air travel). Jet has been operating to Leh for years. At most the GoI needs to provided subsidies air travel for locals, the tourism biz into Leh is actually pretty decent. The only issue might be mid-late winter air service can I'm sure someone like Jet would be more than willing to run that as part of their right to run it in the summer. Bigger issue is probably mid winter airport conditions and the continual availability of planes that can handle the landings there. (high speed and hot(summer) and high with not a great landing surface).
Quoting ytz (Reply 51): I don't know anything about the upgrades. But I'm curious why you think it won't help India-NA direct flights.
The primary markets are west coast and southwest(TX,AZ) which distance wise all fall over into the ULH market. To get some idea, when IT was planning on doing SFO-BLR they ordered specially outfitted 345s with up rated engines and full auxiliary oxygen supply (to do it reasonably you need to fly over the Himalayas instead of going around).
JOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 425 posts, RR: 1 Reply 62, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6864 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 51): I could see DEL being quite a decent hub for India-North America traffic. YVR, YYZ, YUL, BOS, ORD, EWR, JFK, SEA, SFO. I think there are lots of opportunities to be had here with the 787. Maybe even some of those from BOM.
I hope you aren't forgetting AA's recent pullout from ORD-DEL. Also AI's rather loss-making India-US flights. In fact most direct India-US flights with current aircrafts are rather less profitable.
Hoping the 787s will change this for AI and/or 9W in the future.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
LAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5085 posts, RR: 48 Reply 63, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6827 times:
Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 62): I hope you aren't forgetting AA's recent pullout from ORD-DEL. Also AI's rather loss-making India-US flights. In fact most direct India-US flights with current aircrafts are rather less profitable.
Hoping the 787s will change this for AI and/or 9W in the future.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 64, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6649 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54): The idea that they should sit and accept the answer is absurd.
This is India. Politicians are vengeful. Any public campaign to embarrass them into action could easily backfire.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60): Time for India to have an essential air service. While a pork barrel, it would be cheaper than the black hold called AI.
Exactly, what have I said earlier.
Quoting spink (Reply 61): I'm pretty sure the power outages will have minimal impact of foreign investment. As it is and has been for years, every foreign company that builds something in India sets up their own on campus co-generation equipment that is generally designed to supply all power needs for 48-96 hours.
You don't think companies that have investment plans in states that experienced a blackout are going to double check their homework? And it's not just the power supply on your premises. Failure of the public grid may mean your employees may not be able to get to work or they may have a miserable existence at home, impacting their work performance. At the very minimum, the power failures have exposed the inadequacy of Indian infrastructure for the world to see.
Quoting spink (Reply 61): At most the GoI needs to provided subsidies air travel for locals,
This is exactly what I was referring to. Note that aeroblogger is the one who suggested that AI needs to be retained as a SOE to fulfill some vague national objectives which inclue service to communities like Leh. I (and others) have suggested that this should be run as an essential air serivce subsidy program instead. Your observation that 9W operates there, tells me that Leh is not as hard pressed to attract air service as others contend. I'm curious which communities in India are serviced only by AI on a GoI mandate.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 65, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6631 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 64): This is India. Politicians are vengeful. Any public campaign to embarrass them into action could easily backfire.
Countries run that way grow slower economically than countries run on 'how can we make more money in the future.'
I recommend reading a book called "The Lexus and the Olive tree" by Thomas L. Friedman.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 66, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6633 times:
Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 62): Hoping the 787s will change this for AI and/or 9W in the future.
I've been hoping for too long to see an excellent international hub in India. e.g., on the Kangaroo route as well as SE Asia to Europe. With India's already high O&D, a trivial amount of additional feed would accelerate new routes.
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 63): My thread on economics of one-stop versus non-stop ULH flights.
I enjoyed. Part of what helps a flight is hubbing feed and providing a solution superior to the competition.
I'm waiting for the Indian mega-hub to form. DEL would be the best location, but MAA, BLR, or HYD could all work (in my opinion of decreasing profitability).
Instead AI is protected and such growth doesn't happen.
ytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1444 posts, RR: 23 Reply 67, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6589 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65): Countries run that way grow slower economically than countries run on 'how can we make more money in the future.'
Fully agree. And that's why you now see India sliding back into what was previously referred to as the years of "Hindu Growth". Growth was anemic in that time period thanks to over-regulation. 90s liberalization brought newfound optimism. Now that this optimism has been used up, the big question has been whether there is political will to launch a second round of reforms. And really this time, it's all about cutting back on subsidies, reforming the tax code, cutting stated owned enterprises like AI loose and letting in more foreign competition (not just in aviation by the way), etc. When you have people defending billion dollar losing AI, there's no hope for the even tougher decisions that have to be made. India will be doomed to mediocrity for another generation.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 66): I've been hoping for too long to see an excellent international hub in India. e.g., on the Kangaroo route as well as SE Asia to Europe. With India's already high O&D, a trivial amount of additional feed would accelerate new routes.
Me too. By all rights, the Gulf 3 would not be anywhere near as significant if the Indian carriers were efficient, and the GoI stopped meddling. Heck, I would go so far as to say that Dubai would not be what it is today were Indian cities like Bombay (screw that Mumbai title....I'm old school) actually well administered and developed. Dubai has largely been built by Indian talent and labour that could not be exploited at home. Imagine what would have been, if that talent had been aimed at Bombay. BOM, DEL, BLR should all be world-class hubs and home to global carriers by now. Instead, they are all spokes to the Gulf 3 and a few Euro carriers. Incredible. And particularly offensive when you consider that EY didn't exist, not that long ago and QR has only recently begun it's major growth phase. Yet, they are still eating the Indian carriers' lunch.
Me too. By all rights, the Gulf 3 would not be anywhere near as significant if the Indian carriers were efficient, and the GoI stopped meddling. Heck, I would go so far as to say that Dubai would not be what it is today were Indian cities like Bombay (screw that Mumbai title....I'm old school) actually well administered and developed. Dubai has largely been built by Indian talent and labour that could not be exploited at home. Imagine what would have been, if that talent had been aimed at Bombay. BOM, DEL, BLR should all be world-class hubs and home to global carriers by now. Instead, they are all spokes to the Gulf 3 and a few Euro carriers. Incredible. And particularly offensive when you consider that EY didn't exist, not that long ago and QR has only recently begun it's major growth phase. Yet, they are still eating the Indian carriers' lunch.
The Gulf 3, (and their based cities), were built primarily with Indian labour...and to a large degree Indian money. Imagine what could have been if India had used this talent, skill and financing pool to develop even one city and airport to the extent of what has happened in UAE and Qatar.
Instead, AI suckles at the GOI teat and airlines with potential to rival any competitor, are having their growth, (or even existence), stunted by bizarre, short sighted and corrupt regulation and control.
India, as a supposed free market democracy, should be leap years ahead of everybody in Asia...including China. Instead, major cities languish in the dark and growth sputters.
AI is just a symptom. It would be nice to believe that the crooks filling their pockets at the expense of the rest of the country can at least be thrown out of office in the next election. Voters must be getting very tired of paying for that embarrassment of an airline. Even if they keep dumping money into that pit but just take the shackles off of the rest of the airlines, that would be enough to drive an airline boom...which could even spread to other industries.
AI needs to be a rallying cry for those protesting all that is wrong with the GOI....it will take nothing less than the real threat of politicians losing their prestige and jobs to make it happen...and I really hope it does.
AI is a weed that needs plucking...along with the crooks who have kept it fed for so long.
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 614 posts, RR: 2 Reply 69, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6417 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68): The Gulf 3, (and their based cities), were built primarily with Indian labour...and to a large degree Indian money.
Indian labor, yes. Mostly unskilled labour. The educated classes came later. The money was mostly oil money, not Indian money. On the other hand, India benefitted a lot from its proximity - Bombay was popular with the new oily money. You can still see remenants of the ostentatious gold designs put up for Arab tourists at Bombay's five stars. Europe eventually became more accessible to that crowd and off they went.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68): Imagine what could have been if India had used this talent, skill and financing pool to develop even one city and airport to the extent of what has happened in UAE and Qatar.
No matter how hard India tries, it won't be able to push a China/UAE model of development. Local opposition is stiff. Political parties are responsive. They can't even clear out the illegal slums around BOM. India's oddball democracy is a major impediment in getting the infrastructure in place to exploit its own resources. Granted, everyone from the CEO down are trying to avoid taxes, which makes it just that much harder. This is especially true for Indian SMEs - less true for larger corporations and MNCs.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68): Instead, AI suckles at the GOI teat and airlines with potential to rival any competitor, are having their growth, (or even existence), stunted by bizarre, short sighted and corrupt regulation and control.
To be honest, I've never understood why AI is still in the government's control. What is the political explanation for it? Unions?
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68): India, as a supposed free market democracy, should be leap years ahead of everybody in Asia...including China.
India, unlike Canada, does not claim to be a 'free market' economy. Until the 1991 reforms, India was amongst the most autarchic economies outside the Soviet Union (some ways behind China at the time). IIRC, it was actually the most autarchic economy outside the constituent states of the USSR in the 1980s.
Granted, it has since become a lot more 'free market', but many barriers still exist. From a Canadian perspective, however, India is some way ahead in terms of the free market indicators that are valuable to consumers - namely lots of competition and related benefits. However, on a trade scale, there are many barriers to trade - including 110% import taxes on foreign-made cars,exorbitant taxes on alchohol etc. To Canadian consumers, India may seem 'free market' but thats merely a reflection of the lack of 'freedom' in Canada's 'free market' ( I don't even know why we try to label ourselves as such - most of the essential services sectors are heavily protected, Soviet Canuckistan style).
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68): Voters must be getting very tired of paying for that embarrassment of an airline.
I really doubt the 600m+ folk living who are essentially unable to afford flying, really care about AI. Railway prices have always been a much more important political issue in India. And thats not going to change in the near future. Air travel is still relatively inaccessible.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 68): AI needs to be a rallying cry for those protesting all that is wrong with the GOI....it will take nothing less than the real threat of politicians losing their prestige and jobs to make it happen...and I really hope it does.
Runaway inflation, an economic slowdown, power crises, unemployment, inadequate access to basic infrastructure, a poor education system, poor health infrastructure ...even India's longstanding tradition of humiliating itself at the Olympics every 4 years... all of these are far stronger rallying cries than aviation will ever be. Air India will continue along ...simply because people have other issues to worry about. Unless somebody in the government grows the cojones to let go of it. That, of course, depends on why they're so reluctant to part with it in the first place.
India's gotten a lot of hype over the last few years and while the aviation boom was bound to happen on account of the rapidly increasing middle class, this notion of rising India or India shining shouldn't detract from the fact that the country is not in very good shape, with vast swathes of the population more concerned with pressing daily issues. Public sector airlines...not a major concern.
All very good points and completely understood. Why AI makes a good point of protest is that it is very public and very expensive and the money saved by dumping that turd could go towards other projects which should be aided by the government and are much more important to the general public.
Dump the airline and buy some coal.
Canada is free market-esque...and that's probably a good thing. We're not afraid of government regulation...we're just not happy with draconian government control. Completely unfettered capitalism continues to prove to be a disaster in the US.
Other than the necessary certification and safety stuff, they mostly stay out of the airline industry...and most industries. They still have their mitts into AC by the caveats that went into their privatization, but AC is pretty much on its own...as is every other airline.
It's still an open question as to whether or not the GOC would ever let AC fail...but all you need is the name to keep the thing alive.
All the GOI would need to save face is a buyer for the assets and the name. As long as the Air India name is on the side of airliners, which Indian entity that controls the airline should be irrelevant...just as long as it's not the government.
spink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6169 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 64): You don't think companies that have investment plans in states that experienced a blackout are going to double check their homework? And it's not just the power supply on your premises. Failure of the public grid may mean your employees may not be able to get to work or they may have a miserable existence at home, impacting their work performance. At the very minimum, the power failures have exposed the inadequacy of Indian infrastructure for the world to see.
Having spent a decent amount of time in India, I would say that anyone with a base of operations there or considering a base of operations there is fully aware of the infrastructure issues. In BLR where I was mostly for work, it took them 7 years to complete a relatively simple overpass due to all varieties of bribes, graft, fraud, etc. India has all sorts of problem still, the vast majority related to one form or another of political corruption. But that has little effect on what makes it attractive to foreign investments which is a relatively cheap labor force both in the skilled areas and the unskilled areas.
Quoting ytz (Reply 64): This is exactly what I was referring to. Note that aeroblogger is the one who suggested that AI needs to be retained as a SOE to fulfill some vague national objectives which inclue service to communities like Leh. I (and others) have suggested that this should be run as an essential air serivce subsidy program instead. Your observation that 9W operates there, tells me that Leh is not as hard pressed to attract air service as others contend. I'm curious which communities in India are serviced only by AI on a GoI mandate.
Leh has likely been helped significantly by the continuing situation in Kashmir and the various restrictions/barriers to getting into/out of tibet/etc. Over the past 10-15 years it has basically become the destination for anyone wanting to go to the Himalayas both for tourism and for exploration. Before that period I could see the larger need for general subsidies air service. Though if people knew how incredible Kashmir and Ladahk apricots were, I think they could easily have a pretty viable worldwide export biz! I've contemplated going back to Leh just to stock up on more Apricot jam!
I would reckon that the majority of place that need subsided air services have low relative economic infrastructure and little to no tourist attraction.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 72, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5823 times:
Quoting ytz (Reply 67): And that's why you now see India sliding back into what was previously referred to as the years of "Hindu Growth"
I've heard it as the "Natural Hindu growth rate." In effect, it is the global community throwing their hands up and letting India plod along. I really hope India isn't sliding back to that, which the *A issues indicate, as that means:
Quoting ytz (Reply 67): India will be doomed to mediocrity for another generation.
Grow or you rot. Its time to revitalize more than a few cities in India.
Quoting ytz (Reply 67): By all rights, the Gulf 3 would not be anywhere near as significant if the Indian carriers were efficient, and the GoI stopped meddling
100% agreed. India mismanagement, at the airline, airport, and urban planning level gave the mid-east carriers a free pass. The GoI should be putting their efforts to infrastructure (including education), but otherwise let business grow under a world class system of regulation. Sigh... So much potential not being allowed to flourish.
Everyone who hasn't read "The birth of Plenty" should read that book. It goes into how a system of law that is consistent above all else accelerates growth. No one likes uncertainty that they won't be able to get their money out...
Quoting ytz (Reply 67): Dubai has largely been built by Indian talent and labour that could not be exploited at home. Imagine what would have been, if that talent had been aimed at Bombay. BOM, DEL, BLR should all be world-class hubs and home to global carriers by now.
I would add MAA too (due to the automotive industries and geographic location).
Delimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1432 posts, RR: 1 Reply 73, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5741 times:
A lot of inconsistent argument going on. The Gulf 3 are what they are because of massive investments by their respective governments, yet India could have had a carrier of that stature had the government gotten out of the way of business...
Yeah.
If the government wanted an EK they should have just taken Jet, rolled it into AI and killed Kingfisher. Instead, although AI is still supported for policy reasons you have a vibrant, democratic market.
Pick your poison.
Also, try and keep in mind you're talking about the second most populous nation in the world which is governed by an extremely messy, but functional, parliamentary democracy. You were never, ever going to get an EK out of India, because EK was created essentially by fiat.
JOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 425 posts, RR: 1 Reply 74, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5569 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 72):
Quoting ytz (Reply 67):
Dubai has largely been built by Indian talent and labour that could not be exploited at home. Imagine what would have been, if that talent had been aimed at Bombay. BOM, DEL, BLR should all be world-class hubs and home to global carriers by now.
It's because the talent would rather get unused in India, so Dubai and for that matter many other things/places is the world are thriving because of Indian brains and workforce.
Quoting Delimit (Reply 73): You were never, ever going to get an EK out of India, because EK was created essentially by fiat.
Neither 9W or any other Indian airline (least of all AI), can ever become EK/TK, as long as there is a government in India. Or for that matter Govt's bad influence in the aviation business.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
What could happen to Indian aviation if AI was left to sink or swim isn't a single national airline doing all the heavy lifting, but a number of airlines competing for international and domestic markets...more like North America and Europe than the Middle East.
India has no need for one huge airline...they need seats....and they would ideally be on a number of airlines.
Some Indian airlines are more than ready to expand like crazy....but they can't. If the second most populous country can't support a bunch of successful airlines in a relatively free market fashion, then something, (probably a bunch of things), is terribly wrong.
AI is a boat anchor around the neck of Indian aviation. Cut the damned thing loose...let the alliances pick whichever airline suits them best and if some airlines want to go crazy, let them. If they fail, another one will step right in. Soon enough, you will have a few big, successful Indian airlines...one of which may be called AI...but will resemble the current dinosaur in name only.
aa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3338 posts, RR: 9 Reply 77, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4894 times:
Quoting Delimit (Reply 76): Also, I'm not 100% convinced AI is a lost cause. AF went through a very similar evolution. Sadly it looks more like PA.
AF went through those changes largely because of the influence of the EU. The EU told France they were allowed to give AF one final bailout, and only if that bailout lead to real structural changes. AF was also well aware that their final bailout was, indeed, a final bailout. Unfortunately, AI managers would have to be awfully imperceptive to believe that GoI would ever actually cut them off for good.
goacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 72 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4847 times:
Quoting Delimit (Reply 76): Also, I'm not 100% convinced AI is a lost cause. AF went through a very similar evolution. Sadly it looks more like PA.
If I am wrong, hell will freeze over, but I dont see any fundamental changes happening at AI - at least not with the current political entities in power. The unions have way too much political leverage, while the current ruling power is ideologically leftist, or beholden to the left due to the nature of its political alliances. They will continue to pour money into this failure of an airline. Only a major catastrophe, say a major accident that results in massive loss of life will force the administration to come clean on how rotten this airline and the whole setup really is.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 79, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4682 times:
Quoting goacom (Reply 78):
If I am wrong, hell will freeze over, but I dont see any fundamental changes happening at AI - at least not with the current political entities in power.
I agree. However, if the current politicians stay in power, India will have far larger problems than AI. Even today, infrastructure, education, healthcare, corruption are all far bigger issues. In fact, if those issues are sorted out, AI would be in a far better place than it is today.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 80, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4509 times:
Quoting Delimit (Reply 76):
I'm not trying to defend AI; I'm saying that the alternate version of no AI = Indian EK doesn't hold up.
Agreed. But the current stalemate kills any chance of it happening. AI as it is currently structured will never pose a threat to any network carrier.
Quoting aa757first (Reply 77): Unfortunately, AI managers would have to be awfully imperceptive to believe that GoI would ever actually cut them off for good.
Why would they believe they would ever be cut off? Hire that cousin or friend's son or...
Like PanAm, the status quo is going to continue on with AI until it is shut down. At least PanAm sold of sections of itself so that the route network didn't fold over-night. AI has a few more years to reform. But eventually we'll see a backlash against continued subsidies of AI from other nations. (Heck, there is some evidence of it already in bilateral negotiations, but I couldn't prove it.)
There is so much potential for Indian aviation. If only it wasn't self handicapped.
As per this article (basis an interview with the MoCA) the government of india has made its peace with AI not joining star (& asked it to explore Skyteam and Oneworld). It (or more specifically the minister) doesn't seem to have a problem with 9w joining Star
As per this article (basis an interview with the MoCA) the government of india has made its peace with AI not joining star (& asked it to explore Skyteam and Oneworld). It (or more specifically the minister) doesn't seem to have a problem with 9w joining Star
Thanks for posting, that sounds like a major positive development in this saga.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3736 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 82): Thanks for posting, that sounds like a major positive development in this saga.
I'm not sure about that.
The fact that the current minister would allow 9W to join *A if 9W was accepted has been blatantly obvious to anybody who follows Indian politics. However, until *A rejects AI, 9W cannot be accepted as per policies which Ajit Singh probably can't do much about.
The article vaguely says "Member-airlines of the world’s largest airline alliance were not able to come to a unanimous decision to allow Air India, whose application had been put on hold earlier."
Does that mean AI's application has been rejected? If it does, then indeed, AI's chances at joining *A are done, and 9W will likely join *A soon. However, I'd think that if *A had taken a formal vote to reject AI, then the article would have said that AI is rejected instead of being so vague..
If *A has not formally rejected AI's application yet, then it's just status quo.
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 4992 posts, RR: 29 Reply 84, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3573 times:
I don't think Star has an official 'on hold' position for applicants, regardless of the press releases. AI entry into star was rejected...the airline was given many deadlines to meet the minimum requirements and failed to do so before the final last chance.
That being said, Star may have given AI another last chance. While digging around, I found an interesting article that says that as of March 7, 2012, Star and AI were once again scheduled to talk...and AI has accepted the idea of 2 Indian airlines in Star...something I don't recall seeing before.
Bralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 585 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3237 times:
According to the article *A has rejected AI:
Quote:
Ajit Singh said, “To be part of the alliance, every member has to agree and that has not happened, especially after the pilots’ strike, when we lost a lot of credibility. They have practically said no and have sent us a letter last week. We have asked Air India to look for other options and alliances.”
goacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 72 posts, RR: 0 Reply 87, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3172 times:
This is great news! Yet another nail is this flying coffin .. er.. airline. Hopefully the other alliances will also hold out in accepting AI into their alliances, by which time another Indian airline should emerge as alliance worthy (Spice, Indigo?)
Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 86): According to the article *A has rejected AI:
Viman82 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 2 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2919 times:
Quoting goacom (Reply 87): Hopefully the other alliances will also hold out in accepting AI into their alliances
Agree, why would Skyteam and One World want AI in their alliance when *A rejected AI. Jet will end up with *A with indigo joining Skyteam/Oneworld once they grow thier International network.
AI would hope, the slow demise of KF is a blessing. Maybe this might force Skyteam/Oneworld to admit AI just to have an Indian carrier in thier alliance even if either of the alliances dont want AI.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10649 posts, RR: 100 Reply 89, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2827 times:
From that link (posted by Bralo20 above): They have practically said no and have sent us a letter last week. We have asked Air India to look for other options and alliances.%u201D
That is the "its not you, its me" rejection letter. Reading your link in detail, AI in *A is done.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 83):
If *A has not formally rejected AI's application yet, then it's just status quo.
They have a letter. LH's offer to sponsor AI is now expired. Its not a rejection, it is an expiration. AI must now go find someone else to sponsor them for an alliance. With TEN no votes for *A and then the strike, AI is done with *A.
From that link: "Only when we have exhausted our own rights will we start negotiating for more."
Ugh oh. That sounds good on paper, but if there is no slack, than growth comes to a halt. On that matter, let 9W join *A and start using the rights to IST, ICN, DXB, and any unused to Germany. At that point, there will be a need to expand the bilaterals. IMHO, the most important bilateral for India would be a new one with Korea that seems to be stuck on the Air Service agreement. Korea desires multiple flights per day to MAA and possibly other cities in India before investing more. Korea is investing in India, but more in other countries due to difficulties with the air service agreement and other issue that the GoI must work out.
The question is, after the strike and the certainty of further strikes, who would want to sponsor AI for any alliance? Seriously. I see 6E being pursued. They would be a great alliance partner:
1. No long haul threat to other alliance partners.
2. Extensive Indian network.
3. Good reputation
Now, 9W is, in my opinion, the best partner for any alliance in India. They have chosen *A. Now whom will Skyteam and OneWorld select?
From 15a's 2nd link: "But let me be clear, that we are not going to give any bailout to KFA."
Roh roh. Since there will be multiple bailouts coming for AI, that means game over. Anyone have aircraft delivery/lease return schedules for 9W, 6E, and Spicejet?
AA767LOVER From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2531 times:
Star Alliance as a top alliance has much to lose if they don't accept 9W as a sponsor. Let AC/UA/LH co-sponsor 9W. With AI out of the picture (thank god!!!), 9W has more liberty.
J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
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More or less means not ready. *A has 80 criteria to join. I'd love to see how AI 'racks and stacks' against the 80 criteria:
.
How many saw how much effort AI was forcing *A to expend just for entry and said 'they'll drag us all down!' 
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