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Is 747-8I As Quiet As The A380?  
User currently offlinehannahpa From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 128 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 26364 times:
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Just wondering if anyone here has flown LH's new 748. Does anyone know or have heard if the new 748 is as quiet as the A380??

Just wondering.

Thanks.

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30528 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 26290 times:
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Haven't had a chance to fly an LH 747-8 as of yet, but they did put extra noise insulation in the nose so I am expecting it to be quieter than the 747-400.

User currently offlinehannahpa From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 26207 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

Of course it is quieter than the 747-400.... I am wondering how it compares to the 380. Other than press release videos, I want to hear from people who have had the chance to fly both or who have heard from other people...


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 25997 times:

Cabin noise is much quieter than the 744, but not quite as quiet as the A380. I think it's pretty clear Boeing is not interested in making an aircraft that quiet... They have as much as stated so publicly.

Incidentally, the 747-8 is certified to a lower community (QC) noise level on takeoff than the A380, and the same level for approach, so overall community noise from the 747-8 is lower.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7079 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 25859 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 3):
I think it's pretty clear Boeing is not interested in making an aircraft that quiet... They have as much as stated so publicly.

In the same way Airbus didn't believe in 2 engines for long haul - the Boeing noise comments were nothing more than PR fluff...



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 25796 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 4):
In the same way Airbus didn't believe in 2 engines for long haul - the Boeing noise comments were nothing more than PR fluff...

No, it was a very simple observation that there's an optimum background noise level and it's not zero. Despite the refusal of some people to acknowledge something that's not exactly rocket science.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 25712 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 4):
nothing more than PR fluff

As Nomadd22 noted, making an airplane quieter is not rocket science. Both companies know how to do it. However, they have each valued "quietness" differently. I've worked designing airplanes for Boeing for a long time, I can tell you Boeing has set defined targets for how much noise in the cabin is acceptible. If a design exceeds this target, Boeing will reduce weight by removing sound dampening material and let the noise increase to the target level. In fact, there was a time they actually considered adding white-noise generators in the forward cabin of the 787 because they feared it would be uncomfortably quiet.


User currently offlinedampfnudel From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25530 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
As Nomadd22 noted, making an airplane quieter is not rocket science. Both companies know how to do it. However, they have each valued "quietness" differently. I've worked designing airplanes for Boeing for a long time, I can tell you Boeing has set defined targets for how much noise in the cabin is acceptible. If a design exceeds this target, Boeing will reduce weight by removing sound dampening material and let the noise increase to the target level. In fact, there was a time they actually considered adding white-noise generators in the forward cabin of the 787 because they feared it would be uncomfortably quiet.

Uncomfortably quiet? Normally you would think passengers would appreciate a really quiet environment, but then again some noise to drown out stupid conversations, babies/children crying & screaming, etc. would be missed. On a related note, I also miss loud takeoffs, but that's progress I guess.


User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2202 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25439 times:

It's always been an interesting debate. I'm fond of the gentler background noise on the 320 series vs. the 737, as with the 330/340 series compared to the 777. But damn if I don't get my rocks off staring at 100K+ thrust turbines for 10 hours vs. needle-dick 340 turbines. From a novice standpoint I think there's also something fundamental about the physics of massive turbines closer to the fuselage that no amount of sound dampening can overcome. A massive twin like the 777 or upcoming 350 cannot possibly be made more quiet than a 380 with same generation materials. Maybe I'm mistaken but the placement of the 380 engines, combined with their thrust and aircraft speed, make the 380 a cinch to take this dubious crown. As for me, I'm in the camp that likes at least some moderate ambient noise. And in my book the sweetest has always been the RR 767s. SImply the most wonderful aircraft interior ambiance ever made, wide and cozy at the same time.

User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1557 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25324 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 3):
Incidentally, the 747-8 is certified to a lower community (QC) noise level on takeoff than the A380, and the same level for approach, so overall community noise from the 747-8 is lower.

Could you find a source for that, they are both QC2 for take off as far as I know.



BV
User currently offlineblue100 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25256 times:

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 7):
Uncomfortably quiet? Normally you would think passengers would appreciate a really quiet environment, but then again some noise to drown out stupid conversations, babies/children crying & screaming, etc. would be missed. On a related note, I also miss loud takeoffs, but that's progress I guess.

I tend to fall into the camp that likes the noise. Of all long haul aircraft that I have flown, I've easily flown on the 777 the most and I really enjoy my trips on it. I'm not bothered at all by the noise of a 777 and in fact, it makes it much easier for me to drown out any background noise that may otherwise disturb me. In contrast, the one time I flew on an 333 longhaul (AY), it was noticeably quieter in the cabin, which made the sounds of children or chatter much easier for me to hear.

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
As Nomadd22 noted, making an airplane quieter is not rocket science. Both companies know how to do it. However, they have each valued "quietness" differently.

Agreed.   


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25060 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 9):
both QC2 for take off

They are. ICAO certified noise levels (peak lateral) for the three aircraft are published as...

744 - 100 dB
A380 - 94 dB
748 - 93 dB

[Edited 2012-07-31 20:08:37]

User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 24463 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
In fact, there was a time they actually considered adding white-noise generators in the forward cabin of the 787 because they feared it would be uncomfortably quiet.

Actually this is exactly a big plus in my books. My very first A380 flight was on a QF one on the upper deck. It was just way way way too quiet up there. Now i would have thought that was a plus... my thinking being that the sound coming through the electronic headseats...even with noise cancelling would have been a higher quality adding to my experience. What I discovered was unexpect. I had two wealthy middle aged cougars sitting behind me drinking copious amounts of QF's finest bubbles, and as the flight continued they got louder and louder and louder. Now I have had plenty of experiences before on the old 744 with this same situation. After all, after getting a few into them plenty of businessman have been known to gasbag into all hours of the night across the pacific. The difference was, both the airframe and engine noise drowned them out more. It didn't disturb you. So I have to say I think Boeing is right and Airbus, stuck too much insulation in the A380. The noise cancelling headsets provided a similar experience in both so my initial hopes for a better entertainment experience didn't amount to much, but I did have to endure a conversation about what the cougars were gonna have their 'toy boys' do to them once they got to Los Angeles! I tell you what... give me the engine noise anyday!


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12851 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 24063 times:
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Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 5):
No, it was a very simple observation that there's an optimum background noise level and it's not zero.

Then pipe in pleasing sound. Noise is that. Noise. Ocean waves... classical music...

Quoting blue100 (Reply 10):
I tend to fall into the camp that likes the noise.

I'm in the opposite camp.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 12):
The difference was, both the airframe and engine noise drowned them out more. It didn't disturb you. So I have to say I think Boeing is right and Airbus, stuck too much insulation in the A380.

You do realize that the dB level in your noise cancellation headsets to drown out their noise would be the same? Because it is quieter, it seems louder. That is a given. I have no trouble 'tuning out' other people though. If it is an issue, I have ear plugs in my bag anyway.   

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
Both companies know how to do it. However, they have each valued "quietness" differently.

   And we'll see which is the preferred method. There are several ex-Douglas aircraft I try to avoid due to the high noise levels. But to each their own. Pulling out insulation to save fuel has a plus.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1305 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23693 times:
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Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 5):
No, it was a very simple observation that there's an optimum background noise level and it's not zero. Despite the refusal of some people to acknowledge something that's not exactly rocket science.

This is well known - a standard problem in acoustic planning for work places.

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
In fact, there was a time they actually considered adding white-noise generators in the forward cabin of the 787 because they feared it would be uncomfortably quiet.

Again - a well known problem. Just a new one to aircraft.

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 7):
Uncomfortably quiet? Normally you would think passengers would appreciate a really quiet environment, but then again some noise to drown out stupid conversations, babies/children crying & screaming, etc. would be missed. On a related note, I also miss loud takeoffs, but that's progress I guess.

It is also important to realize that noise canceling headphones will not cancel this kind of noise (they may insulate against it like ear muffs or plugs, but not cancel it). The reason is physics. Noise canceling headphones work by _predicting_ future noise based on existing noise and producing an out of phase 'noise' that cancels it. If the actual noise varies from the prediction, they do not work. Voices cannot be predicted in regard - so you cannot cancel them - only insulate against them or hide them in background noise (white noise).



rcair1
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23665 times:

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 7):
Uncomfortably quiet? Normally you would think passengers would appreciate a really quiet environment, but then again some noise to drown out stupid conversations, babies/children crying & screaming, etc. would be missed.

Everyone (I think) acknowledges that there is a thing as too quiet. If it was library-quiet inside the cabin you'd hear *everything* your neighbors were doing and nobody wants that. The debate is just over what's the lowest noise level that's "enough".

If you take it to the extreme (anechoic chambers) it *really* freaks people out because your subconscious can't deal with not having acoustic cues about your surroundings.

Quoting wingman (Reply 8):
A massive twin like the 777 or upcoming 350 cannot possibly be made more quiet than a 380 with same generation materials.

It can. It's just far too large a weight penalty to be worth it. Technology exists, right now, to make any airplane cabin arbitrarily quiet. It's just not worth it.

Tom.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5398 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 22071 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
If you take it to the extreme (anechoic chambers) it *really* freaks people out because your subconscious can't deal with not having acoustic cues about your surroundings.

This is very true. Having worked in a few sound studios, most people have an adjustment period to get used to the complete absence of echoes...which they don't realise are everywhere...and provide much more noise to the background than most people think.



What the...?
User currently offlinemasi1157 From Germany, joined Feb 2011, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21372 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 12):
So I have to say I think Boeing is right and Airbus, stuck too much insulation in the A380.

Be assured they didn't. Low cabin noise levels are not primarily achieved by adding insulation, that is just one of many means. And insulation is rather light.


Gruß, masi1157


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1587 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21184 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
As Nomadd22 noted, making an airplane quieter is not rocket science.

Don't agree with that. The point is making the plane quieter without adding to much weight. Airbus has spend years on research to find a insulation which is very light but also noise dampening.

I'ts based on cork AFAIK. That's why the A380 has a unrivaled quiteness and i prefer that over a noise enviroment.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinemasi1157 From Germany, joined Feb 2011, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21102 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 18):
I'ts based on cork AFAIK.

No, it isn't.


Gruß, masi1157


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20828 times:

I do wonder how many posters would be saying the A380 is too quiet if the 748i was quieter.

It probably isnt, but thats by-the-by. My personal view is that I much prefer the A380 over any other long-haul aircraft, in fact any other plane full stop. I go out of my way to fly on it, indeed i've paid a lot more in a couple of cases to make sure i got the A380.

I love the 77W, and I've flown on it more than any other plane save for the A320. But i prefer the A380 cabin experience. I'm looking forward to trying the 748i - my guess is it will be roughly A343 or A346 sort of quiet, meaning, absolutely lovely and a very very pleasant place to spend 12 hours.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20824 times:

If the cabin is quiet like on the 787 you will hear other sounds like electric motors or someone farting etc..

Look for a landing clip filmed in a ANA 787 on YouTube, you can hear some motors more than the engine, that is probably worse IMO.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2055 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20770 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 3):
I think it's pretty clear Boeing is not interested in making an aircraft that quiet... They have as much as stated so publicly.

I call bollocks on the Boeing statements regarding noise. Most every passenger I've talked to really enjoys the quiteness of the A380. Rest assured that if Boeing had a similarly quite aircraft, they would tote that as a great achievement.

It's much the same as Airbus "not believing" in composites, until they start the A350, or Virgin "not believing" in twins until they acquire A330s, or Lufthansa "not believing" in the value of PTVs until they, well, have them themselves. Or as a non-aviation example, look to Apple. Every feature their products don't have is declared to be totally unnecessary, even harmful, until they adopt it themselves.

Rest assured that Boeing will one day build a clean-sheet design, make it super-quiet, and market it as the "Silence Liner" or something. I guess "WhisperJet" is taken..



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20528 times:

Most office environments have significant background noise from computers (largely fan noise) and become eerily quiet during a power failure. The background noise in modern aircraft is now getting down to similar levels which should be more than enough for most pax.


Regards,
StickShaker


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2373 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20458 times:

Interesting how Boeing is 'not interested' in making their aircraft more quiet when Airbus has the quieter aircraft. If it was the other way around, then I'm sure a lot of people would say Boeing got it right and Airbus is behind.

Quoting Rara (Reply 22):

Well said!


25 masi1157 : That would be still quite a way to go. The gap is still 10-30dB(A), and it won't become smaller in the near future. Gruß, masi1157
26 Burkhard : This optimum is different for different societies. Southern Europe and the US is used to much higher noise levels than Central and Northern Europe as
27 PHX787 : Ok so If you know me I have an affinity of the BA744 so I took a video of it to compare to the 748: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7u2c9Mg04I BA744
28 Post contains links konstantinkoll : I've been on Lufthansa's 747-8i about a month ago, and found the aircraft to be amazingly quiet, however I lack the comparison to an A380. You can rea
29 masi1157 : Cabin noise targets have never been set with such cultural differences in mind, I believe. And I even believe it came as a surprise for almost everyb
30 spink : Unlikely. Almost all noise barriers are make up of either polymer foam based material or high density polymer based material depending of the charact
31 Post contains links zeke : That is incorrect. The Noise TCDS for the 747-400 (RB211-524G3-T-19 engines) says 396,893 kg takeoff and 285,763 kg landing Lateral EPNL 98.0 Flyover
32 masi1157 : It is mostly glasswool in Airbus A/C. As I said, it is mostly glasswool, and that works rather well in mid and high frequency ranges, and even as low
33 caljn : Very amusing how some hear equate sound levels with superiority or quality. As others have said above, if quiet were the issue it could be accomplishe
34 masi1157 : Would you tell me the trick how to do that without adding weight? And I mean no weight at all. Gruß, masi1157
35 mogandoCI : If airlines really cared about cabin quietness, choosing A380 over 747-8 is not the answer. A baby screaming in first class on the A380 is far noisier
36 bikerthai : "Glasswool" AKA fiberglass insulation. Sometimes, polyester (or similar) fiber is used because of lighter weight. Sometimes light weight foam cell pa
37 masi1157 : As I said: "Mostly" glasswool. But I never heard of ... I did hear of constraint damping layers, which are not really light weight. And they are not
38 JAAlbert : I've long felt that the cabin noise of aircraft in flight is very wearying over time. I am in the camp for a quieter cabin. That being said, the topic
39 Post contains links and images CM : I do not work in an acoustic engineering role, but I have seen with my own eyes Boeing revising the airplane when the design was over-performing to t
40 masi1157 : All those quotes are 4 years old and not about noise in the pax cabin, but in the flight crew rest area. That problem has long been solved. Gruß, ma
41 RNAVFL350 : Many large office spaces here in Canada have been install white noise generators as of late to drown out the ambient noise of everyday office life. I
42 Post contains images Stitch : Like you, I love the 777, but I will take an A380 any day anywhere. I know you are also a fan of the 747, but I personally dislike the plane. However
43 Revelation : I'm having a hard time finding the "bollocks" in the statements being discussed here. Boeing folks are saying that they can make the cabin quieter, b
44 Stitch : I expect they would. But as Revelation notes directly above me, if anyone is of the opinion that Boeing commercial aircraft have a subjectively/objec
45 Flighty : Amazing! The A380 is near silent on approach, very quiet reverse thrust.
46 spink : So they are basically just reusing their thermal insulation. That will take care of high frequency reasonably well but isn't that great for mid and l
47 Post contains images astuteman : The data Zeke posted suggests the 748-i is marginally quieter on takeoff, and marginally noisier on approach. No data on interior noise anywhere, sad
48 masi1157 : By selecting the density and thickness you can tune it quite well to mid frequency, at least. In low frequency it is poor, just like anything having
49 Post contains images Stitch : As you know, I'm a massive fan of the A380 as a passenger plane. And it is my preferred way to travel by air. But the A340 having a quieter cabin tha
50 flyingcello : Is the 748 built to tighter manufacturing tolerances than the 744? I would imagine that re-engineering all the drawings to allow for more modern manuf
51 masi1157 : It does have a lot to do with closing gaps between panels, but almost nothing with tighter tolerances. Just think of how much those panels move due t
52 Post contains images bikerthai : The quiet reverse thrust can be explained by having only two engine with thrust reversers. Could be . . . but vibration noise are notoriously hard to
53 Post contains images astuteman : I only put it in as a "for instance", but I could see where it could be part of the "sell" on a so-called flagship where it might not be to the same
54 cmf : Having been part of those "surveys" a couple of times I really do not give them much credit. The questions are designed to provide the desired outcom
55 Post contains links zeke : ICAO is not a regulator, they do not certify, they generate standards which ICAO states adopt. Each weight variation needs its own noise certificatio
56 rcair1 : Just a note. Typically people notice the differences in sound at about 3db difference. When we set up a room for sound - if we stay within 6db we are
57 nomadd22 : Just sit in the rear seat of one of AAs DC-9s. You'll never think any other plane is noisy again.
58 Post contains links autothrust : Well, but Airbus intended to use or investigate on a insulation material based on cork. Airbus To Use Cork As Future Insulation Material. (by WINGS J
59 masi1157 : I remember I heard about that. And I even seem to remember that it was tested for sound absorption. But since cork has closed cells, its absorption i
60 Post contains links CM : Of course. This is sematics. The whole industry refers to the ICAO standard as "ICAO noise certification". Even the DGAC explains aircraft noise cert
61 zeke : Yes there is, lets go back to this and this The Lateral EPNdB is not the figure use to determine the takeoff or landing QC category, and I have no id
62 Post contains links tozbek : Lufthansa 747-8 take off: http://youtu.be/lowWfUrZADw Lufthansa 747-8 economy cabin: http://youtu.be/Hl1XLdEDYuw Lufthansa A380 flight: http://youtu.b
63 rcair1 : Not sure what we can conclude from this. First - videos taken with the same camera in different planes will probably have different AGC applied. Unle
64 spacecadet : Not much. In addition to the points you made, the A380 video is obviously made for some sort of TV broadcast, meaning the camera's probably fitted wi
65 masi1157 : If you want to judge noise levels from sound recordings, you need to do a lot more than just use the same video camera on both aircraft. Gruß, masi1
66 spink : yep, anything outside of a calibrated SLM (regardless of weightings) is basically hearsay if we are comparing noise levels.
67 bestwestern : Many here think that Airbus sucks it seems!
68 sweair : A380 and 787 seem to be the most quiet planes flying today. From the YouTube clips of both I have seen. Not a perfect way but better than nothing. the
69 Post contains images neutrino : Don't they both carry the same meaning?...on mechanicals and otherwise.
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