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BA A318 LCY Club World Shuttle To Mid East Hub?  
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

If one of the middle eastern carriers joins Oneworld could BA use A318's from LCY as kind of Club World shuttles to a middle eastern base ?

To connect passengers to a middle eastern carriers network ?

Passengers could then get seamless premuim service from LCY to places like SYD ?

Apologies if the A318 does not have the range.


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1421 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12953 times:

They would firstly need to purchase a few more A318s. However they would not have the range to even reach the likes of DXB from LCY and the requirement to stop and refuel may make the service less advantageous to just lugging it out to LHR. This refuelling is negated on the JFK service by the bonus of being able to do US Preclearance in Shannon!


My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8442 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12798 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 1):
They would firstly need to purchase a few more A318s. However they would not have the range to even reach the likes of DXB from LCY and the requirement to stop and refuel may make the service less advantageous to just lugging it out to LHR. This refuelling is negated on the JFK service by the bonus of being able to do US Preclearance in Shannon!

LCY-DXB is shorter than JFK-LCY which the A318 does non-stop. LCY itself is the problem as the runway is too short to take off with a full load.


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 783 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12726 times:

Maybe when the C Series comes along it will be viable as it is supposed to have the range to do these distances direct from shorter runways.

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12711 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 2):
LCY itself is the problem as the runway is too short to take off with a full load.

Damn !

Bound to have been a nice little earner with all those connection opportunities.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12508 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 3):
Maybe when the C Series comes along it will be viable as it is supposed to have the range to do these distances direct from shorter runways.

Yes.

Am afraid to mention the possibilty of maybe doing this from other airports too ?

It's just that having the possibility of a connecting hub relatively close to the UK with a Oneworld member 'hubbed' there.

With the LCY/JFK service a succes it makes you think ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 03:54:33]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8086 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12511 times:

Ah, one of the favourite a.net aircraft, BA's A318s (joint first place - or should I say gold medal - with SQ's A340-500s). What do you think this one'll run to, 50 posts?

I sat next to the boss of London City Airport on the inaugural BA 002, JFK-LCY on 29 Sep 2009 (arr +1). He said LCY has room to park four A318s and before the financial crash, they were looking at Boston, Dubai and Washington. Can't remember what he said about the fuel stop issue for DXB. But the service started after the crisis, with less business travel etc, and Dubai hit particularly hard, so they were content to focus on NY. I suspect that hasn't changed in the (nearly) three years since.

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
If one of the middle eastern carriers joins Oneworld

Don't forget Royal Jordanian are already members - although Amman is not exactly a high-yield destination, and one BA were happy to let British Mediterranean / British Midland serve with A320s. Presumably they'll hang on to it now, but a regular A320 from LHR is as much as they can hope for on that particular run - and BA probably serve three times as many destinations in Asia as RJ do. (I do realise the opening premise really meant a Persian Gulf carrier, and LCY to Australia would generate a few bums on seats each day for sure.)



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12477 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
sat next to the boss of London City Airport on the inaugural BA 002, JFK-LCY on 29 Sep 2009 (arr +1). He said LCY has room to park four A318s and before the financial crash, they were looking at Boston, Dubai and Washington. Can't remember what he said about the fuel stop issue for DXB. But the service started after the crisis, with less business travel etc, and Dubai hit particularly hard, so they were content to focus on NY. I suspect that hasn't changed in the (nearly) three years since.

Does not a middle eastern carrier in Oneworld rather increase the scope of such a venture ?

What about somewhere like SOU ?

I am considering connecting traffic not just people terminating in say DXB or DOH etc

[Edited 2012-08-01 03:58:50]

[Edited 2012-08-01 04:49:45]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12251 times:

SOU is 'literally' right next to Southampton Parkway Train Station.

Say QR joined Oneworld for example...could BA connect premium passengers to QR's network on an A318 (or similar)from SOU ?

What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

I know that much bigger jets than an A318 arrive and depart SOU occasionally.

[Edited 2012-08-01 04:59:57]

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:09:45]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11638 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12208 times:

In the future I would not be surprised if BA replaces the ERJs and the A318 with the CS100. For the same reason that the A318 is limited to four stands, LCY would have to complete its remodeling before that could happen, but it is going to happen.

That would open up a lot of destinations, direct. The CS100 has a range of 2,950nm with 110 pax/bags and reserves etc... That is with a field length of 1,509m, so you can lop a bit off for LCY's shorter declared distances but, in a full C configuration, Bombardier are confident it can do well in excess of 3,000nm non stop from LCY.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12120 times:

SOU is 'literally' right next to Southampton Parkway Train Station.

Say QR joined Oneworld for example...could BA connect premium passengers to QR's network on an A318 (or similar)from SOU ?

What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

I know that much bigger jets than an A318 arrive and depart SOU occasionally.

Sorry to repeat..but just wanted to add this.

Southampton Airport is served by a dedicated mainline railway station, Southampton Airport Parkway, on the South Western Main Line from London Waterloo (just 66 minutes away) and Winchester to Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole, Dorchester and Weymouth with a fast and frequent service to those places.

*** The station is conveniently located just a 60 second walk from the terminal (one of the closest airport links across Europe).***

The airport is also located close to the junction between the M3 motorway and M27 motorway, giving easy road access to Southampton, Winchester, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and places between.

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:25:49]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12119 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 8):
What's wrong with SOU-DOH-SYD or SOU-DOU-XXX etc etc

Sounds like a BA regional operation. Why not just upguage equipment out of LHR?
With the loss of preclearance on the BA003 I wonder if the LCY operation will continue going forward?


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12075 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
Sounds like a BA regional operation. Why not just upguage equipment out of LHR?

Do you have any idea how much 'money' there is in southern England ?

The New Forest, Bournemouth, Poole, Winchester , Southampton cruise terminal and so on.

SOU could be a 'gem' from a passenger perspective and take some heat off LHR.

How many Club World 32 seat A318's (or similar) could you fill daily from SOU with the entire eastern hemisphere up for grabs ?

3 or 4 ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:36:40]

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:44:53]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11993 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):

Do you have any idea how much 'money' there is in southern England ?

Of course I do, there's loads around MAN and LGW but do I see it happeneing there either? Nope. SOU is a flybe monopoly and frankly looks likely to stay that way.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11958 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 13):
Of course I do, there's loads around MAN and LGW but do I see it happeneing there either? Nope. SOU is a flybe monopoly and frankly looks likely to stay that way.

It does happen there.

EK for one thing.

?

FLYBE ?

What's it got to do with them ?

Up until recently the possibilty of a middle eastern carrier in Oneworld has not been on the agenda anyway.

[Edited 2012-08-01 05:54:21]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11928 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
What's it got to do with them ?

WHAT? Are you being funny? My point is that almost the only major airline SOU have is flybe. SOU really struggles to do much beyond that, the biggest aircraft they get is a VY A320. All the money round SOU uses LHR, as does much of the money round LGW! Also the runway at SOU is not that much longer than LCY.
LCY 1508m
SOU 1723m

[Edited 2012-08-01 06:05:33]

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11740 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):
WHAT? Are you being funny? My point is that almost the only major airline SOU have is flybe. SOU really struggles to do much beyond that, the biggest aircraft they get is a VY A320. All the money round SOU uses LHR, as does much of the money round LGW! Also the runway at SOU is not that much longer than LCY.
LCY 1508m
SOU 1723m

Hang on.

If QR, EY or EK join Oneworld.....a now quite likely scenario.....

There has never in the entire history of British civil aviation been a possibilty for a British carrier to utiilze a middle eastern hub and cooperate with its home carrier at this level.

The relative closeness of these hubs results in the possibility to send small premium configured jets to connect with the network of a middle eastern carrier from relatively small (even by regional standards) airports.

We're not talking thousands of people a day but on a small fleet of 32 seat premium configured jets the catchment areas are ample. Pretty good yields there !

What's more for a short sector like SOU/DOH (for example) flight/cabin crew could be bussed in from LHR to operate the trips on a daily basis so no crew base is required.

[Edited 2012-08-01 07:29:23]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11313 times:

Why do I need multiple small aircraft and crews? Connecting MAD to the regions isn't the idea, flying widebodies out of LHR is. I expect a similar sceario would happen to the Middle East, A388 perhaps.

User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7114 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11218 times:

How about a BOH AMM?


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 11131 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
Why do I need multiple small aircraft and crews?

Why ? Why ? Why ?

Why does any airline fly anywhere ?

Look at SOU....

Southampton Airport is served by a dedicated mainline railway station, Southampton Airport Parkway, on the South Western Main Line from London Waterloo (just 66 minutes away) and Winchester to Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole, Dorchester and Weymouth with a fast and frequent service to those places.

*** The station is conveniently located just a 60 second walk from the terminal (one of the closest airport links across Europe).***

The airport is also located close to the junction between the M3 motorway and M27 motorway, giving easy road access to Southampton, Winchester, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and places between.

***

The BA A318 is like a flying 744 upper deck. Always the most popular club cabin.

With a ME carrier in Oneworld it is a possibility to use SOU as a spoke.

(no need to have a base there, sub contract out the ground handling and bus in the small amount of flying staff to hotel the night before or operate on the day even....all BA would have to do is provide the aircraft and provide a swish lounge)

We aint getting no 3rd runway anytime soon are we ?

[Edited 2012-08-01 08:07:12]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6742 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10948 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
The relative closeness of these hubs results in the possibility to send small premium configured jets to connect with the network of a middle eastern carrier from relatively small (even by regional standards) airports.

We're not talking thousands of people a day but on a small fleet of 32 seat premium configured jets the catchment areas are ample. Pretty good yields there !

But you have to ask if there's a good reason to hand over that traffic to a middle eastern carrier -- even if that carrier is in the same alliance. It's very likely that most of the markets with appreciable premium demand from London are already served non-stop by BA from LHR, and the premium service you suggest from SOU would take away from that -- and give a good piece of the revenue to the cooperative partner.

In the case of LCY-JFK, BA is offering a differentiated service in a city-pair (LON-NYC) where five carriers (BA, AA, DL, UA, VS) covering all three major alliances compete with non-stop service. There may simply be value in offering the service in the interest of locking in contracts with financial firms for which LCY is convenient.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10869 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
But you have to ask if there's a good reason to hand over that traffic to a middle eastern carrier -- even if that carrier is in the same alliance. It's very likely that most of the markets with appreciable premium demand from London are already served non-stop by BA from LHR, and the premium service you suggest from SOU would take away from that -- and give a good piece of the revenue to the cooperative partner.

Yes there is that but there is a hell of alot of traffic leaving LHR on other carriers that otherwise might choose BA/QR if SOU was nearer. (with the benefit of avoiding a big hub like LHR)

(BA/QR is just an example)

(remember we're only talking a very small proportion of overall LHR traffic poached from all carriers not just BA.... an A318 not A380...that's the beauty of it)

I think it's a deliciously inexpensive, simple and easy way to draw premium traffic in light of a middle eastern member in Oneworld.



[Edited 2012-08-01 08:35:45]

[Edited 2012-08-01 08:46:02]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6742 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10566 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
there is a hell of alot of traffic leaving LHR on other carriers that otherwise might choose BA/QR if SOU was nearer. (with the benefit of avoiding a big hub like LHR)

I'd expect that most of the traffic willing to pay for premium class seating would prefer a non-stop flight wherever possible. If a premium class passenger already chooses to make a connection on a competitor from LHR, I'd wager they do so based on price, program loyalty, or service quality. A boutique service like the one you suggest isn't going to be an effective competitor on price (and shouldn't undercut BA's own services from LHR). And I'd argue that it probably won't move the needle much on program loyalty or choice based on service.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10518 times:

If we cannot get premium traffic to use GATWICK, in Surrrey, one of the wealthiest parts of the country witha fabulous (when it works !) airport, how are we going to get them to use SOU, which is frankly a tin shed. It's as basic as it's possible to be without FR. Mikey I know you like to debate, and yeah it's "possible" but classed under very, very unlikely.

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10009 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
If we cannot get premium traffic to use GATWICK, in Surrrey, one of the wealthiest parts of the country witha fabulous (when it works !) airport, how are we going to get them to use SOU, which is frankly a tin shed. It's as basic as it's possible to be without FR. Mikey I know you like to debate, and yeah it's "possible" but classed under very, very unlikely.

It's a great airport with fabulous links via road and rail.

EK flies 3 times a day from LGW on 777's to its middle eastern hub with a hell of alot of premium passengers.

I believe there is a market for premium configured A318 service from SOU to a middle eastern hub when you consider the myriad of connecting destinations that would be available.

It is absolutely no different a concept than the one used by middle eastern carriers at any other regional airport in the UK.

In fact if it was physically possible to operate a 777 out of SOU I bet EK would have looked at it !!!



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
25 skipness1E : Switch SOU to BRS and change Middle Eastern to American to feed the enormous American Airlines operation. That's not going to happen. SOU has almost
26 mikey72 : skipness it's a couple of poxy (forgive me) A318's...not a fleet of A380's. Regards BRS and American...BA have the Atlantic in their back pocket anyw
27 liftsifter : Why is everyone saying "if" a Middle East carrier joins...? RJ is already a part of One World, no need for another middle east connection...
28 Post contains images PlymSpotter : What is wrong with SOU-FRA-XXX, SOU-AMS-XXX or SOU-CDG-XXX? If there was the kind of huge premium demand you are suggesting, these would all be serve
29 LX138 : What are people taking on here? Why on earth would BA want to 'feed' a middle east carrier??? As someone currently pointed out, a percentage of the re
30 Post contains images ZaphodB : Almost, but not quite. Unless there has been a huge, unreported earthquake that moved the airport 1 mile north of its previous location
31 Post contains images ZaphodB : Madness ... quite possibly but the catchment area is bigger than you think. I used to live in the dead center of West Sussex and chose to use SOU if
32 LX138 : The catchment area is big for the markets the consumers in the region demand. This isn't an A318 service to the middle east!!! It is: Flybe to JER, E
33 skipness1E : Actually it's in both Sussex and Surrey, no need for earthquakes.
34 ZaphodB : which part is in Surrey? - the paint on the north side of the north boundary fence?[Edited 2012-08-01 17:56:34]
35 mikey72 : Well as usual the discussion seems to have warped considerably from my original premise of a one-stop-service to 'places like SYD' or places not serv
36 eljonno : It used to be in Surrey (AFAIK)....then they moved the county boundaries, about twenty years ago I believe, so now it's in West Sussex.
37 eurowings : All premium services don't have the best track record ever, you need a really solid and dependable market to ensure their continued viability. Does SO
38 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Refining connections to 'places like SYD' reduces the case for such a service even more. It's entirely relevant to ask why other airlines, with even
39 mikey72 : When considering a 'hub' with the potential of DOH the 'spoke' does not have to be the busiest international airport in the world. Far from it. It co
40 LX138 : At the end of the day, you can command higher fares from LON than SOU. LON is also a far bigger catchment area than SOU.
41 mikey72 : No doubt but could there be a market for such a relatively luxurious (prem config small jet), hassle free and hub free departure from the UK connecti
42 bestwestern : This thread started off as a discussion on the benefits of one world alliance on a middle east carrier, and a potential BA link up from London City, a
43 Post contains images PlymSpotter : If SOU had a 3,000m runway then I would agree it could potentially one day support an A332/787 etc... to the ME. But talking about all premium servic
44 mikey72 : How can an airport that is 66 minutes away from LHR not have any J demand ? That's like saying there isn't much J demand from Hounslow to Los Angeles
45 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Seriously? The huge demand for premium travel is mostly generated by the Greater London area. You evidently have no idea just how large a passenger b
46 Bill142 : Why would anyone want to start a long haul route at an airport that's 50 miles away from one they're already flying to? The investment involved probab
47 AA94 : Why wouldn't I do this? Because I could fly BA nonstop LHR-PEK. I don't know many (if any) people who would fly SOU-DOH-PEK, especially when LHR has
48 bestwestern : Eh..... Luton? Stansted? Why? Yes, but not profitably. thats why theres only very few routes like it, flown by privatair - and with o&d demand, l
49 Viscount724 : There are no longer any PrivatAir-operated transatlantic routes. The last two were AMS-IAH operated for KLM and ZRH-EWR operated for LX. AMS-HOU was
50 mikey72 : This isn't about SOU or DOH it's about south east England and a middle eastern mega hub.
51 david_itl : Rather like EK going from LHR 5 times a day and LGW 3 times a day to DXB then?
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