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Pinnacle To Follow Path Of Comair?  
User currently offlinedtwpilot225 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 147 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9040 times:
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Looking at the situation, the writing may be on the wall for this airline. When you take the 66 crj 200's that skywest will be taking out of service and add them to the 13 that comair had left that will be gone, then add the 140 that pinnacle has and subtract them all from dci, you have something very close to the 125 left that delta wants going forward. That would leave pinnacle with 41 900's. There will be 70 more 900's up for delivery after delta receives the 717's but there is no gaurantee that pinnacle gets those airplanes. If they don't I could see their 41 900's being shifted to Skywest and GoJet. Comair has a long history but Pinnacle also has been around for more than 20 years. There are employees that have been here since day one. Then you factor in the excellent 85 year history of Mesaba and you have a sad situation. Delta has gone on a warpath and they are fixing their own mistakes with peoples jobs. It may be necessary and it may be business but looking at comair going down, i see pinnacle not around past 2015

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9002 times:

I believe that Delta has made up their mind on what to do to Pinnacle. Nobody thought that Comair would ever be sold, let alone, closed for good. Too many good folks over there, hopefully they all will find their way to bigger and better careers.

As for Pinnacle, I have heard that the 16 900's will be gone by March (from what I am hearing) and I have also heard that OO/EV is looking to get approval from the FAA to do the BZE/CZM flights that Pinnacle was doing out of ATL.

I have also heard that since the Mesaba leadership is slowly taking over MEM, there are rumors going around that if Pinnacle agrees to move to MSP and take over the old Mesaba offices, that Pinnacle will be the front runners for the divvied up aircraft and they will continue to operate?

Of course, this is what I am hearing as rumors.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8950 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 1):
Nobody thought that Comair would ever be sold, let alone, closed for good

Actually I think most of us knew OH was going away somehow, it just took a while. Hopefully Pinnacle has a better fate... maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8933 times:

I doubt it will just be Comair that goes under. I believe you will see a few more regionals follow that same path in the next few years. Its time for them to upgrade equipment or close the doors.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8762 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Actually I think most of us knew OH was going away somehow, it just took a while. Hopefully Pinnacle has a better fate... maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??

The rumors ebbed away a bit after the CVG hub grew to its peak in 2005 but then I guess they began to return right when the cuts began



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinesyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2039 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8625 times:
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Quoting dtwpilot225 (Thread starter):
Delta has gone on a warpath and they are fixing their own mistakes with peoples jobs.

What other solution was there? Don't get me wrong I'm not for them laying off people but in this environment there doesn't appear to have been many other options.

I think Pinnacle has the most to lose at this point, SkyWest/ExpressJet will reach an agreement with Delta in the end on changing the fleet to the larger RJ's, but Pinnacle has a lot riding on 50-seaters.


User currently onlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8588 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 3):
I believe you will see a few more regionals follow that same path in the next few years. Its time for them to upgrade equipment or close the doors.

The regionals can't go out and just upgrade their own equipment. They are bound by contracts with the mainline carriers and scope agreements. In some cases, they may not even own the aircraft they operate for the mainline carrier.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8525 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
maybe there is an advantage to having at least 1 wholly owned regional. Pinnacle is the last one, right??

Pinnacle is not wholly owned by DL. DL is providing them financing during their BK but they are still an independent company. In fact, DL sold Mesaba (which was wholly owned) to Pinnacle which helped expedite their descent into bankruptcy since Pinnacle really couldn't afford it.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8523 times:

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 1):
OO/EV is looking to get approval from the FAA to do the BZE/CZM flights that Pinnacle was doing out of ATL.

Shouldn't be too hard. Before 9E came to town, EV was flying CR7s to BZE and CZM. Back in the day, DL was sending CR2s to MTY on EV so won't be a huge deal. Personally, this wild experiment was not worth it. 9E's performance in Atlanta over the past 4 years has been atrocious. Relative to the level of flying they've been doing, their on-time performance and rate of cancellations is not where it should be. I had a guy at OCC tell me one night that when ATL's in IROP, Pinnacle all but disapears. No communication from their scheduling department. No communication from flight OPS in MEM. No communication from the OPS people based on C Concourse. They just sort of cancel flights and DL won't find out about it until the flight drops from term.

I know ASA has always been the airline people love to hate but their a much easier company to deal with. At least in Atlanta.

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Thread starter):
Looking at the situation, the writing may be on the wall for this airline. When you take the 66 crj 200's that skywest will be taking out of service and add them to the 13 that comair had left that will be gone, then add the 140 that pinnacle has and subtract them all from dci, you have something very close to the 125 left that delta wants going forward. That would leave pinnacle with 41 900's. There will be 70 more 900's up for delivery after delta receives the 717's but there is no gaurantee that pinnacle gets those airplanes. If they don't I could see their 41 900's being shifted to Skywest and GoJet. Comair has a long history but Pinnacle also has been around for more than 20 years. There are employees that have been here since day one. Then you factor in the excellent 85 year history of Mesaba and you have a sad situation. Delta has gone on a warpath and they are fixing their own mistakes with peoples jobs. It may be necessary and it may be business but looking at comair going down, i see pinnacle not around past 2015

This is just me...

But what I think will happen is 9E's CR2 will be the bulk of the 50 seaters left in the fleet post 2014 and on. Why? Because they are pretty much the youngest in the entire DCI fleet and are in pretty good shape. Will 9E continue to operate ALL? No. What I think will happen is DL will divy up the 140 among the other operators leaving 9E with a respectable fleet of CR2s and CR9s. Let's not forget that post BK, they will be in a much better position financially. They're already shedding a lot of costs. They're getting out of the money loosing Q400 OPS. From what i've read, they've been upside down as far as operating costs for several years now and it only got worse over the past 18 months as they started to miss performance goals set by UA thus loosing out on bumps in their CPA reimbursements. It was the same thing with DL and the ATL based PQs. The PNCL ground handling is gone. We know they'll be going back to the pilots for more cuts. Who knows what will happen but it will all come down to who's willing to open up a base in MSP. That is no cheap endeavor. 9E is already there. Besides CP, OO is the largest DCI operator out of MSP so take that FWIW. EV has already been stepping up big time in DTW over the past year. To me, it looks like everything's going back to the olden days. EV will be big dawg (always really) in ATL, OO will always be SLC and maybe MSP alongside S5 and CP if they get their way, and DTW may get split down the middle between G7 and EV (along with S5 and CP). JFK/LGA will continue to be a conglomerate of everyone.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinecrj900lr From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 7):
The regionals can't go out and just upgrade their own equipment. They are bound by contracts with the mainline carriers and scope agreements. In some cases, they may not even own the aircraft they operate for the mainline carrier.

I understand the contracts but any regional who is not looking at the future and is just looking at the present is gonna have issues. You must always try to improve your product, such as Skywest and Trans States are doing with the MRJ orders for example, and should never rely on what you currently have as that can be gone tomorrow. This game of musical planes that Delta is playing with their regional partners cant give anyone on the regional side any sense of job securityfor the long term. Its a shame that the regionals are at the mercy of the mainline carriers like they are.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8480 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
Its a shame that the regionals are at the mercy of the mainline carriers like they are.

And that's no one's fault but...

FWIW, moving forward I think the smarter regionals will simply want control of their own assets. For example, EV owns all of their 700s. DL can't shuffle those around. The QX CR7s EV and OO picked up in 2010 are leased directly by SkyWest Inc. DL cannot move those around either. All of EV's 900s belong to Delta though. This however doesn't always work. Look at the sad state that 9E's in. The owed Royal Canadian close to $700M in note payments on the Q400s that they own. Not sure if that number included the 16 900s as well. But they had to return them and UA found a new home for them. DL's doing the same thing with the 900s. It was smart of them to have the assets as their own (note OO/EV and S5) but they did too much at once and severely underbid for flying just for the sake of growing.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinedtwpilot225 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8263 times:
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The reason Pinnacle had to return both the Q400's and CRJ 900's is becuase they were tied to the same note. Thats how they got them so cheap. Delta is going to have its hands full though if they make announcements that pinnacle is going away. Pinnacle does 1000 flights a day for delta. The only way to shut them down is systematically doing it by small chunks at a time like they did comair. The pinnacle employees will see the writing on the wall if this happens though and performance will become even worse than it is now.

User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7498 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8207 times:

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 7):
The regionals can't go out and just upgrade their own equipment. They are bound by contracts with the mainline carriers and scope agreements. In some cases, they may not even own the aircraft they operate for the mainline carrier.

I understand the contracts but any regional who is not looking at the future and is just looking at the present is gonna have issues.

Someone was available to allow a mainline carrier to dictate terms when the business was being set up, those investors who were willing to enter into a true partnership were rejected by the legacies, so we and they have what we have.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
You must always try to improve your product,

If it is your product to upgrade and improve.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 12):
Quoting crj900lr (Reply 11):
Its a shame that the regionals are at the mercy of the mainline carriers like they are.

And that's no one's fault but...

  


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8167 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
I had a guy at OCC tell me one night that when ATL's in IROP, Pinnacle all but disapears. No communication from their scheduling department. No communication from flight OPS in MEM. No communication from the OPS people based on C Concourse. They just sort of cancel flights and DL won't find out about it until the flight drops from term.

^This^

I didn't used to be like that, btw...  



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 11):

Like I said, I don't think they will go the way of Comair as explained in my post above. And they already know there will be layoffs because the announcement about the 900s moving off property was made months ago. It was suppose to be a 5 month transition starting in January but it seems like it will be much faster, like what UA's doing.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7799 times:

The fundamental difference between Comair and Pinnacle that we must all be aware of is that Pinnacle is an independent corporation whereas Comair was wholly owned by Delta.

Delta had the power to pull the plug on Comair because it was completely in charge of the company. Pinnacle is not wholly owned but is under Ch. 11 bankruptcy protection. I believe even under BK, Delta cannot completely pull Pinnacle's contracts, but we shall see what happens.

I think we will see a lot of the "dead weight" from the regional industry thin out in the near future. I would even predict a change in the business relationship between the regionals and the majors as the regional industry consolidates into a few large players over many small ones.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 15):
Pinnacle is not wholly owned but is under Ch. 11 bankruptcy protection.

Pinnacle has become the world's first wholly pwned regional with Delta providing the DIP financing.

Quoting JBo (Reply 15):
I believe even under BK, Delta cannot completely pull Pinnacle's contracts, but we shall see what happens.

Delta can do whatever they want with Pinnacle. Every decision made within Pinnacle is coming from DAL right now.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6358 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7696 times:

Not many people know that Comair was the N. American launch customer of the CRJ...

Quote:
As the North American launch carrier for the Bombardier Canadair Regional Jet (CRJ) aircraft in 1993 and the first regional airline to operate an all-jet fleet, Comair has consistently led the regional industry in operating and maintaining the CRJ 100/200, CRJ 700 and CRJ 900 series aircraft.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7681 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 17):

Big mistake on DALPA's part. As I've been told, there were provisions for the 200 to be flown by Delta mainline pilots. They didn't like the rates nor the expected pairings and essentially felt like the flying was below them. I've said it before and ill say it again. Mainline pilots have no one to blame but themselves.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemm320cap From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 228 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7396 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):

Typical RJ Anklebiter comment. Name your source if you are going to level an accusation like that


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 682 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7209 times:

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 11):

Just think of this : " Pinnacle " AFTER THAT, all roads are downhill!


User currently offlinefilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6835 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):

Your correct in that they didn't want to fly the Crj but your reasons are wrong.That decision was made almost 20 years ago and the people in charge are long gone.Present day DAL pilots mostly believe all flying for DAL should be done by mainline and the recent TA is a first step in that direction.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6101 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):

Your correct in that they didn't want to fly the Crj but your reasons are wrong.

Great opening first sentence, but...

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):
.That decision was made almost 20 years ago and the people in charge are long gone

Is a poor answer, and...

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):
Present day DAL pilots mostly believe all flying for DAL should be done by mainline and the recent TA is a first step in that direction.

has no relatable context to what he said---other than that DALPA existed then, as it does now.

[Edited 2012-08-05 13:06:45]


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 17):
Not many people know that Comair was the N. American launch customer of the CRJ...

Considering their eventual fate, a lot of good that did them.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 19):
Typical RJ Anklebiter comment. Name your source if you are going to level an accusation like that

Umm..straight for mainline pilots that were flying back then and are still with DL today? Want a source? Mike Birmingham. Don't know who that is? Of course you don't.

Quoting filejw (Reply 21):
Your correct in that they didn't want to fly the Crj but your reasons are wrong.

That was the reason THEN. Did you even read my post all the way through.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
has no relatable context to what he said---other than that DALPA existed then, as it does now.

Thank you!!



What gets measured gets done.
25 bhmdiversion : The reason there is no communication from MEM during ATL IROPs is MEM was too afraid to send anyone to ATL to see what happened whenever there was an
26 Mir : Not just DALPA, all the unions were on board with it at the time. -Mir
27 mcdu : Buy something you can't afford? And that is DL's fault? The regionals seem to always blame someone else for their troubles. The hazards of being a ou
28 Mir : Pinnacle's management did not do a good job at all - that's clear, and that's most of the reason they're in the state they're in. But you can't deny
29 SNCntry32 : Delta has been the number one cheer leader. Its depressing to think it was really never this way with Northwest. Who knows where Northwest would have
30 DashTrash : Not quite. USAir held the line on RJs until they got their ass handed to them in bankruptcy #1. Before that the RJ's (think F28s / F100s) were flown
31 usflyer msp : Mesa began operating CRJ's for US in 1997 which was well before US' first bankruptcy.
32 Mir : And the same year that the F28s were retired. -Mir
33 FlyASAGuy2005 : Interesting. I had no idea they got rid of the hub coordinators. I know of one personally. Only knew him by first name but a very nice guy and seemed
34 SNCntry32 : Its beyond ridiculous how many 'regional' airlines Delta has contracted out. I really dont see why 8 or 9 is really necessary. This race to the botto
35 B727FA : Not for nothing...but there is no guarantee that the 76 seat a/c will all be -900's (please NO!)...I'd expect the 175 to gain some traction on this de
36 B727FA : Airways has 10 I think...
37 bhmdiversion : When we started in ATL with the WorldFlight conversion, we had many a talks with the C Tower Managers and ATL trying to obtain a spot up there, but i
38 FlyASAGuy2005 : I've been hearing this sorry line for years. Still waiting for the bottom to "fall out". I'm not saying I agree with having so many partners but the
39 crj900lr : Airways has 10 I think... PSA Airlines Mesa Airlines SkyWest Airlines Chautauqua Airlines Republic Airlines Trans States Airlines Air Wisconsin Piedm
40 mayor : DL is by no means the worst (if it is, indeed, a bad thing)......last count UA/CO had 12 regional partners. But I assume your bias against DL is colo
41 strfyr51 : United's New NOC has a United Airlines NOC manager coordinating all the regoinal flights, I'm not sure it matters who or what airline they're coordina
42 Enilria : By providing the Ch11 DIP for PNCL, DL effectively controls PNCL. They are essentially the only shareholder now. The only way Delta would lose contro
43 FlyASAGuy2005 : By the numbers.. UAX - 10 USX - 8 DCI - 7 AA - 3
44 KDAYflyer : I believe most of these regionals will go away. As the need tp control costs escalate, the mainline carriers will reduce freuencies and return as man
45 Goldenshield : There will ALWAYS be a need for regionals. Maybe not with th current model---as flawed and currupted as it has become thanks to newcomers skewing the
46 B727FA : Thank you for the rundown...I was trying to pull it off the top of my head!
47 PSU.DTW.SCE : Regardless, 9E in its current form is CRITICAL to DL's operation. They are the largest CR9 operator and still a large fleet of relatively young CRJs.
48 FlyASAGuy2005 : This is what folks are missing. 9E is HIGHLY entrenched in MSP, DTW, and to a lesser extent, JFK. Minus the 16 ATL based PQs, they still operate 41 C
49 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : maybe, maybe not. Delta still has 70 more big RJs to wave at someone. My guess is Republic gets a few(to get out of the ERJs) and the rest go to OO w
50 mayor : Sure it would be...it would be cheaper to put everyone on busses, too.....but I also know why they don't want to have just one or two carriers doing
51 FlyASAGuy2005 : As I pointed out Caleb, they are not any worse than the other guys. UA and US actually leading the pack.. UA - 10 (I excluded 9L) US - 8 DL - 7 (I ex
52 bobnwa : What is the current situation with Compass Airlines They were totally owned by NW and were flying NW owned E/170/175s
53 NWAESC : They were sold to Trans States in 2010. Not sure if ownership of the airframes was part of that, but I'm sure someone one here does...
54 bobnwa : Thanks for the info. Hope everything at Delta is going well for you.
55 floridaflyboy : Airplanes are still owned by DL.
56 DashTrash : I'm not so sure about that. Aren't the ATL based 900s going away? DAL owns the -200s and can put them anywhere they want. What happens to PCL will de
57 PSU.DTW.SCE : It its current form, as it is today 9E is CRITICAL to the CURRENT operation. That is a lot of flying to transition out. Can it be done? Yes. Will it
58 Goldenshield : Agreed. A transition of that size is akin to a merger. There's way too much going on, way too many transfers, way too many employees to deal with, an
59 Post contains images NWAESC : You're welcome, and life's good! Gracias.
60 bhmdiversion : DGS has taken over some of the stations that Pinnacle/PinnPro handled. ICT, MGM, and TUL are the biggest ones that come to mind.
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