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HA To Order A320 NEO?  
User currently offlinehellogorgeous From China, joined Nov 2007, 17 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9641 times:

What are your thoughts on HA ordering the A320 NEOs to fly thin West Coast-HNL and inter-island routes?

I don't think A330s can sustain HNL to SMF, OAK, PDX, and SEA. The 767s and 717s will need to be replaced within 10 years.

From my understanding the NEOs will be powered by the PW1000G. Sort/medium range aircraft such as the C Series and MRJ will also be powered by a variation of the engine. Does this mean the PW1000s will be better suited flying shorter routes than the 737 MAX's CFM engines? I know Aloha had problems flying 737-400s with the CFMs on inter island routes. If so, the NEOs could fly West Coast and inter islands flights, which would increase aircraft utilization and revenue per aircraft.

NEO's could replace 767s by offering more frequencies and also open new markets such as COS, RNO, ONT, TUS, ABQ.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9563 times:

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):

I don't think A330s can sustain HNL to SMF, OAK, PDX, and SEA.

Sure they can. It's hardly a large increase in number of seats from the 767.

If they were to change their stately and start flights from the mainland to LIH/KOA, sure, but I see no good reason that will happen.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15839 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts on HA ordering the A320 NEOs to fly thin West Coast-HNL and inter-island routes?

Not going to happen.

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
The 767s and 717s will need to be replaced within 10 years.

Probably not actually. Maybe the 717s, but the 767s are fairly young and won't be going anywhere for some time. The A330s are mostly for expansion. I think right now only three 767s are scheduled to be removed from the fleet. Half of the 767s are over 20 years old and half are under 11 according to what I've found.

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
NEO's could replace 767s by offering more frequencies and also open new markets such as COS, RNO, ONT, TUS, ABQ.

I doubt any of those markets with the possible exception of Ontario can sustain nonstop service to Hawaii on any aircraft.



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User currently offlineSWALUV From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9528 times:

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts on HA ordering the A320 NEOs to fly thin West Coast-HNL and inter-island routes?

Maybe LIH-Main Land as previously stated but it would be perfect for inter island routes.

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
NEO's could replace 767s by offering more frequencies and also open new markets such as COS, RNO, ONT, TUS, ABQ.

NEO's to COS from the island's????? Highly Doubt it. ABQ and TUS also seem out of range and maybe would face restrictions due to the heat during the summer.


User currently onlineredrooster3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9501 times:

There have been earlier threads on this,

HA & 738 MAX Or 739ER (by olddominion727 Jan 13 2012 in Civil Aviation)

What If HA Ordered NB's? (by redrooster3 Dec 20 2011 in Tech Ops)

The conclusion was that the market is already over saturated with AA, DL, UA, G4, AS, and WS to even sustain profitability. HA has looked at 752's, but didn't want to mix the fleet, and couldn't come up with a good price on the order, so HA didn't order. The 767 has a lower seat/mile cost than the 737, and the 320. So it wouldn't fit correctly into's HA fleet.



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User currently offlineSWALUV From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9491 times:

Any chance of a 787 or 767-400 order???

User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9397 times:

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 5):
Any chance of a 787 or 767-400 order??

Highly unlikely with the A-350's on order.



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User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9190 times:

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
I don't think A330s can sustain HNL to SMF, OAK, PDX, and SEA. The 767s and 717s will need to be replaced within 10 years.

I think that if SAN can sustain an a330, I think SEA and OAK can.


User currently onlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8596 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8849 times:
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Quoting SWALUV (Reply 5):
or 767-400 order???

- Why would on earth they order these when they have new A330's on the fleet, more to come and A350's in the pipeline?



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User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8618 times:

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
- Why would on earth they order these when they have new A330's on the fleet, more to come and A350's in the pipeline?

Because one too many a.netters think every airline should have every airplane on the market, just because everyone else has them.

If they bothered to do 5 seconds (10 on a slow connection) of research, they would get their answer rather fast!  



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User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3461 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8253 times:

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
HNL to SMF, OAK, PDX, and SEA

PDX and SEA have sustained L-1011, DC-10 and now 767 service by HA since the mid eighties, I think a 330 will be just fine serving any of the above cities you mentioned.



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User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2991 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6568 times:

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 3):
NEO's to COS from the island's????? Highly Doubt it. ABQ and TUS also seem out of range and maybe would face restrictions due to the heat during the summer.

I'd be more worried about COS-islands. 6200 foot elevation and 100 degree temps would really put a hole in your payload.

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 3):
Maybe LIH-Main Land as previously stated but it would be perfect for inter island routes.

Except for cooking the engines. There's a reason you don't see any CFM or IAE powered aircraft doing the interisland hops.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineSWALUV From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6488 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 11):
Except for cooking the engines.

Are we sure that the NEO's and MAX's are going to suffer the same fate as the NGX's or the A320's???


User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 609 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6326 times:

TUS is also a 100 miles to the south of PHX. They have a 767 to PHX and most people drive the distance in an hour and a half to get to a HA flight. I would think if the demand was high they would upgrade to the 330.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 11):
Except for cooking the engines. There's a reason you don't see any CFM or IAE powered aircraft doing the interisland hops.


Yep, AQ cooked the engines of the 737-400's on their inter-island flight. The turn time and low flight altitudes did not allow time for the cores to cool down enough and they were causing high engine wear. the 717 is working well for HA and they have enough to cover their market. They are adding turboprops to their fleet in the future and this could be a possible replacement for the 717. The turboprops solve a lot of this problems, but the public perception is what would need to be changed. IMHO

Type Date of delivery

767-332 01/10/2006 N594HA 6 years old
767-332 01/10/2006 N596HA 6 Years Old
767-332 01/10/2006 N597HA 6 Years Old
767-332 01/10/2006 N598HA 6 Years Old
767-3G5ER 10/05/2002 N585HA 10 Years Old
767-3G5ER 22/03/2002 N584HA 10 Years Old
767-3G5ER 01/07/2002 N586HA 10 Years Old
767-33AER 04/03/2002 N583HA 10 Years Old
767-33AER 14/11/2001 N582HA 11 Years Old
767-33AER 24/09/2001 N580HA 11 Years Old
767-33AER 24/10/2001 N581HA 11 Years Old
767-33A/ER 23/09/2002 N587HA 10 Years Old
767-33A/ER 13/11/2002 N589HA 10 Years Old
767-3CBER 24/10/2002 N588HA 10 Years Old
767-3CBER 06/12/2002 N590HA 10 Years Old
767-3CBER 03/02/2003 N592HA l9 Years Old

Also remember that the cycles are low on these planes as they are flying such far distances.


User currently onlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6231 times:

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 13):
767-332 01/10/2006 N594HA 6 years old
767-332 01/10/2006 N596HA 6 Years Old
767-332 01/10/2006 N597HA 6 Years Old
767-332 01/10/2006 N598HA 6 Years Old

Those are the dates when HA got the planes. These were all built in 1986.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 13):
767-3G5ER 10/05/2002 N585HA 10 Years Old
767-3G5ER 22/03/2002 N584HA 10 Years Old
767-3G5ER 01/07/2002 N586HA 10 Years Old
767-33AER 04/03/2002 N583HA 10 Years Old

Manufactured in 1989 or 1992(the last one).

The other 8 were all delivered new to HA.


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2991 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 12):
Are we sure that the NEO's and MAX's are going to suffer the same fate as the NGX's or the A320's???

Why do you put apostrophes before the s? It's A320s not A320's!

I'd wager it should be thought of as a problem till shown not to be. With a geared fan, the problem could very well be worse.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineSWALUV From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 15):
It's A320s not A320's!

OOPS!


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6037 times:

Quoting hellogorgeous (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts on HA ordering the A320 NEOs to fly thin West Coast-HNL and inter-island routes?

I think they would be horrible for inter-island routes and dont see what routes that HA would fly from HNL to west coast that would make it profitable to order a new fleet type.


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 17):
I think they would be horrible for inter-island routes and dont see what routes that HA would fly from HNL to west coast that would make it profitable to order a new fleet type.

Acctually I agree with you. The NEO will loose all benefits they say they have over the MAX on those short trips.It is well known that the MAX is expected to be more efficient on those sectors than the NEO, just like the NG is over the A320.

If anything the C-series or the E-jets would serve HA best as replacements for the NB's.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

This could be the domain for A319NEO, less the 320.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5308 times:
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Quoting SWALUV (Reply 3):
Maybe LIH-Main Land as previously stated but it would be perfect for inter island routes.
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 17):
I think they would be horrible for inter-island routes and dont see what routes that HA would fly from HNL to west coast that would make it profitable to order a new fleet type.
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 18):
Acctually I agree with you. The NEO will loose all benefits they say they have over the MAX on those short trips.It is well known that the MAX is expected to be more efficient on those sectors than the NEO, just like the NG is over the A320.

Per this thread in TechOps - Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island? (by Valorien Jul 17 2012 in Tech Ops) - the CFM56 engine isn't really suited for the kind of flying inter-island missions require. Unless LEAP-X addresses this, that rules out the MAX and if the GTF also suffers the same, then that rules out the A320neo and the C-Series.


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