gen2stew From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 83 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15782 times:
While on a WN flight I overheard a conversation between a few pilots and cabin crew that the -800 is not working out as planned and that WN had deferred future deliveries to the -MAX. Any truth to this?
The only things PAX see is the fare thay paid and the seat in front of them. Gotta love the race to the bottom!
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15073 times:
I know that I don't work for WN, but I did chat with a pilot during my layover in BWI a few weeks ago and he said the exact opposite. He said that WN all the NG aircraft, including the -800. He said the -800 was working out better than they had expected. Granted the crews aren't always the most informed, this guy seemed very knowledgeable.
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 2): He said the -800 was working out better than they had expected. Granted the crews aren't always the most informed, this guy seemed very knowledgeable.
All indications are that the 738 is working for WN. If anything, I expect WN to slow growth by retiring 733s when they are due to heavy maintenance.
WN's plan was indeed to take as many -800's as they could within a year, starting with I believe the count was around 34. However due to the cost within WN (not so much -800's cost), WN needed to defer the deliveries to help save some money and control the companies cost. They have a target in mind they want to bring in before WN can consider expanding/growing without cutting a single route or station.
By deferring the -800's, WN has slowed down the -300 retirement, I believe the -500's are still leaving at a rate but I am not sure how fast. (As lightsaber guessed correctly)
WN plans to keep the fleet quite stagnant, by getting rid of the 717's, halting the -300 retirement and slowing down the -800 deliveries there won't be too much aircraft fleet growth in terms of numbers.
As many have noticed and said over and over, WN's cost is not just high, but also rising, and WN is acting very quickly and reacting in a way to increase revenue in every way possible to control the high cost going on at the company.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
strfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 488 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14091 times:
rigning in costs is a no brainer. WN is going the responsible route as they really have nobody that they need to compete with. They are in a Niche of their own and nobody is going to usurp them anytime soon
LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 22062 posts, RR: 51 Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 12955 times:
Per their earnings call from two weeks ago, they were quite upbeat about the 738.
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 12904 times:
What are the chances we will EVER see a 717 in WN colors? I know they're leaving soon, but it would be nice to have something other than a 737 in WN colors.
SXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2012 posts, RR: 19 Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 12901 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 4): I believe the -500's are still leaving at a rate but I am not sure how fast.
So far there are 4 -500s that have been retired, with one more due for retirement in October.
I am sure somebody else pointed this out, but if you see any plane in the WN fleet that doesn't have winglets, odds are it wont be in the fleet much longer..
[Edited 2012-08-06 09:35:39]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
cargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1166 posts, RR: 9 Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 12679 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 8): What are the chances we will EVER see a 717 in WN colors?
With the deal for them to leave done, essentially zero.
But if you want to see another aircraft in (admittedly older) Southwest colors, there are photos of the small number of 727s WN operated in 1979 and later in the 1980s.
toltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11911 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3): If anything, I expect WN to slow growth by retiring 733s when they are due to heavy maintenance.
I agree, but can only slow so much since they've committed to replacing the 717 1 to 1. By agreeing to do that, they've made it hard to trim any excess capacity like DL and UA were able to do in their mergers.
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5): WN is going the responsible route as they really have nobody that they need to compete with. They are in a Niche of their own and nobody is going to usurp them anytime soon
But they do compete with the legacy carriers now. They changed the business model away from peripheral airport and now serve business centers direct. Plus their labor costs are now among the highest in the domestic industry. They need more -800's to lower costs.
737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11081 times:
Quoting toltommy (Reply 14): But they do compete with the legacy carriers now. They changed the business model away from peripheral airport and now serve business centers direct. Plus their labor costs are now among the highest in the domestic industry. They need more -800's to lower costs.
Now how the heck do you know that? Not picking on you. I just here this alot on here. How does one determine the cost of employees at a company? What if I do twice the work of another airlines employee? Does that make my hourly wage 50% less? Look at the number of employees at WN and compare that with the norm. of other airlines. WN's labor costs per the number of aircraft is well below the other airlines. They now pay some of the best wages to retain and recruit the best they can get. JMO.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7253 posts, RR: 25 Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11080 times:
Reminds me of when Flight Miniatures went ahead and offered a FL 73G model in the old (1997) colors (of which I purchased) when it turned out later that FL launched their first 73G in their current (then-new) scheme.
Too bad, Flight Miniatures doesn't do similar w/the WN 717; it'd be a lot cheaper to purchase than the one offered by Aim Higher Jets.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Revo1059 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10482 times:
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 12): Umm about 0.0000000000000000000000001% at this point.
So yer sayin theres a chance!!!!! (a classic movie)
QANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1804 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10356 times:
Quoting gen2stew (Thread starter): While on a WN flight I overheard a conversation between a few pilots and cabin crew
My opinion is that this is the first time that WN has had a "sensitive" airplane with regards to weight and balance. The -700 is stubby and wide. In normal operation, I don't think you can make it so tail heavy that it touches the ground. The -800 might be able to, so you have to be careful. Also, it's a heavier plane that we are used to so landing in MDW and such has caused some weight issues at the departure station. The -800 is a fantastic airplane, but I think that employees thought it would be the end all be all of airplanes and that it'll lift and do anything you give it. When in reality, this is normal operation for nearly every other airline out there.
I also think that it's very popular to hate the -800 at WN. WN doesn't do change well so when it happens, people tend to freak out. I often hear people say, "Oh, I cant stand the -800!" and so I ask why they hate it. Hardly anyone has been able to give me a reason as to why they "hate" it. They usually just stand there and say, "uhhh, umm, it's an -800!" Ok, but what about the plane is so bad? "Ummm, uhhhh.... it's longer!" Yeah, ok....
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10): And if they put one on IAD-MDW, it would be full-up
It's currently flown LAX-LAS and it is 175. Not 174.... 175. We have always joked that we could put an -800 on the LAX-LAS route and it would be full too. Well, the Company sure showed us.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
PanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 274 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10129 times:
There's a difference between cost of labor and efficiency of labor. Where labor can be numerically differentiated, ie in gate agents or rampers, efficiency comes into play when we talk about "cost of labor". For example, it is better to have two happy rampers who make $55,000 a year and work as hard as three disgruntled rampers who make $40,000 year (I'm making all these numbers up by the way). The cost of labor may appear higher for the airline who pays its rampers $55,000 a year, but in reality, it's saving money because it's workers try harder.
But when labor cannot be numerically differentiated, efficiency isn't included. The FAA requires X crewmembers to operate a 737-800. WN has X crewmembers, DL has X crewmembers, and so on. If WN pays its employees higher, they might be nicer to the customers, but they are overall doing the same job as the lesser paid crewmembers on other airlines. Thus the cost of labor is higher for WN due to higher wages in some instances.
NWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 849 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10071 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 8): What are the chances we will EVER see a 717 in WN colors? I know they're leaving soon, but it would be nice to have something other than a 737 in WN colors.
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 12): Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 8):
What are the chances we will EVER see a 717 in WN colors?
Umm about 0.0000000000000000000000001% at this point.
Southwest id going to pay to have the 717s painted in Delta Airlines colors.
Why would Southwest paint an aircraft twice?
chrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1774 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9680 times:
Quoting gen2stew (Thread starter): While on a WN flight I overheard a conversation between a few pilots and cabin crew that the -800 is not working out as planned and that WN had deferred future deliveries to the -MAX.
Well, since pilots are the most informed people at the company, and the FAs are the second most, this must be true...
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 18): It's currently flown LAX-LAS and it is 175. Not 174.... 175. We have always joked that we could put an -800 on the LAX-LAS route and it would be full too. Well, the Company sure showed us.
I sat next to a few WN FAs on a PHX parking lot bus who were complaining about the 738s. Apparently a lot of employees are non-reving on them "just to fly the -800." They were upset since they had to do non-rev on a multi-stop flight home since "there were too many non-revs flying for no reason" on the 738.
jreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9339 times:
Quoting chrisair (Reply 21): non-reving on them "just to fly the -800."
Sounds like they could all be airliners.net members I think all of us on here would book a flight based on aircraft type. But that's for another tread...
737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8670 times:
Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 19): The FAA requires X crewmembers to operate a 737-800. WN has X crewmembers
I agree with most of your points. Alls I'm saying is that WN uses/employees a much smaller work force for the number of flights/aircraft.
As far as the FAA requiring a certain number of crew members, remember this is only the number required to physically operate the aircraft with passengers. They have no such number regarding mechs., cleaners, ramp agents, ops. agents, etc.. An airline can run as lean as they want as long as all is done correctly.
26 rising: Is it one in the front and two in the rear? (I am glad to hear that by the way I always thought it was just 2, from a prior thread. Cross-country on
27 KC135TopBoom: You do know all of WN's B-737MAX orders are for the B-737-8MAX, they are the launch customer for the type. I don't think anyone has ordered the B-737
28 AirframeAS: IMHO, using a -700 on a transcon is pretty silly for this one reason. If an airline really insists to use a -700 on such a route, add another Lav.
29 alggag: I really don't see how -800s wouldn't be working out. It's no secret that WN's fares have gone up quite a bit and load factors are also higher than ev
30 lightsaber: Agreed. But once they have a single crew and single aircraft, WN will be very flexible and that should prime them for future growth. I'm not aware of
31 Caspian27: I'd bet it's because there were more open seats. Pretty simple logic, when you're nonrevving you have to go where the seats are.
32 AirframeAS: I have to agree. Non-revving on the sole reason it's a 738 and a new plane type, but you're right..... Go where the sears are. FA's shouldn't be comp
33 QANTAS747-438: So??? Hows that the -800s fault? And why can't non-FA employees fly just to fly... it IS the Freedom to Fly, no? Welcome to the world of Non-reving.
34 AU795: Any Southwest employee (ramp, hdq, csa) can sit in the extra cabin jumpseats. On the -800 there are two additional jumpseats in the rear galley. It ca
35 arffguy: I recently flew on the -800 from Vegas to Chicago. It was OK except it seemed to take forever to load everyone on board. With longer flights you had b
36 ouboy79: Everything is always subject to change until it is actually done...especially in this industry. LOL
37 Hiflyeras: Are you saying that WN is finally joining the 21st century and installed CARTS on the -800's?
38 spiritair97: I like that there are no carts. Since they only bring a few drinks out at a time, not only does the absense of the cart make the plane feel less-clau
39 AU795: Yes, we are using half carts on the -800's. Each FA works off their own half cart. Trays are being tested for short flights, but as of now FA's are s
40 hOmsaR: I didn't think their 727s lasted 13 years. I thought it was a very short-term deal, like a year or two tops. IIRC, they did operate 727s on two separ
41 DeltaL1011man: Air Lines yep only for Cabin crew. and my bet is the 739MAX will be the most popular.
42 Silver1SWA: One things is certain, the company didn't do all their homewok before adding the -800 to the fleet and a few operational headaches have occured as a
43 JONC777: hmmm. . .fas complaing about employees non reving for no reason. . .lol. . .who cares, im tempted to nrsa now just to tick an fa off! making my listi
44 PHLBOS: WN first flew the 727-200 in 1979, not 1972. The occassion lasted only about a year. They flew the type again a few years later. Let's not forget tha
45 Caspian27: I bet those FA's won't complain so much when they are nonrevving and it comes down to either being in those jumpseats themselves, or not making it on
46 NWAROOSTER: NIT PICKER. Got anything better to do KIDO......
47 SkyTeamTriStar: It would be very cool to see a 717 in WN colors but just like DL never repainted their TriStars into the flowing fabric scheme back then. Bummer, I k
48 usflyguy: Just like the union has refused to negotiate with the company on certain things... it's a two way street. Don't waste your time or energy, the flight
49 737tanker: At WN the F/As do not get priority when it comes to the cabin jumpseats, it is 1st come 1st serve. If there are any scheduled DH'ing F/As on a flight
50 gizmonc: Cabin jumpseat on SWA is first come first serve, sign up is one hour prior to flight departure. However there are several limitations. FYI if a FA nee
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