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Air Canada YWG-MSP?  
User currently offlineKLSMB From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 35 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2584 times:

As a frequent flyer on the YWG-MSP route, I have been confused for years as to why the route is only served by one airline (Delta). With up to 5 daily flights, it's clear that many passengers on this route are flying to/from MSP to make connections there to other destinations with Delta/Skyteam. However, there are long-standing ties between Winnipeg and Minneapolis with people traveling between the two cities frequently and regularly. The fares that Delta is charging are ridiculous, but that's not surprising given their unchallenged monopoly on the route.

There has been whispers of Air Canada Express finally entering the YWG-MSP market for years, but so far there has been seemingly no interest in this route from the airline. With 164,123 people flying this route in 2011 and Delta Airlines upgrading equipment and frequencies on the route, there is clearly enough room for two airlines here. Winnipeg isn't an Air Canada hub so I'm guessing that is why Air Canada does not operate even a single flight to any destination in the USA from YWG, but I don't understand it. Why hand over so much traffic to Delta on this route?

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

How many of those are connections to points beyond MSP? I suspect many.
I flew the route back a few years ago, but AC uses UA via ORD as the midwest connection point to the US. That route has gone AC to UA to AC to UA a few times.

AC would need it to be all O&D, which is a serious challenge.


User currently offlineKLSMB From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2125 times:

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 1):
AC would need it to be all O&D, which is a serious challenge.

Although a sizable portion of it would be O&D, it would give Air Canada pax traveling to/from MSP from cities in western Canada like YYC, YVR, YEG, YQR, YXE etc. a time saving option connecting to Minneapolis in Winnipeg as opposed to connecting at YYZ or ORD. Unless traffic on the route is 90% people making connections at MSP with Delta (which it is not), Air Canada should have no problem filling up a couple of daily CRJs on the route.


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2074 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1998 times:

What you're probably seeing on DL is the leftovers AC doesn't want to carry via YYZ or ORD and AC are happy to let DL have it. If there was enough O&D between YWG and MSP (and AC definately have the stats) then no doubt there would be a dedicated service on a relatively short route- the fact there isn't means they're seeing a completely different picture.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

I can remember seeing DC-10's scheduled to be running this route at some point in the past with NW.


AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 2):
Although a sizable portion of it would be O&D, it would give Air Canada pax traveling to/from MSP from cities in western Canada like YYC, YVR, YEG, YQR, YXE etc. a time saving option connecting to Minneapolis in Winnipeg as opposed to connecting at YYZ or ORD. Unless traffic on the route is 90% people making connections at MSP with Delta (which it is not), Air Canada should have no problem filling up a couple of daily CRJs on the route.

Why would one connect in YWG to go to any of these cities when one can go non-stop on DL from MSP to all of these cities?

Remember: YWG is not a hub for AC, so the connections would not be necessarily great anyway. I did ORD»YWG»YQR a couple times (before UA did ORD»YQR n/s) and the connection times sucked.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
I can remember seeing DC-10's scheduled to be running this route at some point in the past with NW.

Yes, I flew them! which was when the route was dominated by NW and no other US carrier.
Funny part is that NW flew DC-10 then it got downgraded and mostly DC-9's.

When I started a project in YWG I was doing ORD-MSP-YWG-MSP-ORD. Then AC started ORD-YWG, so I switched to UA, but at that time I was Premier Exec on UA and Gold on NW so for me the status part did not mean all that much. UA took over the route from AC shortly after it started, then it bounced back and forth a couple of times, but it has been consistently UA for at least 5yrs. It makes more sense for it to be UA given they have the hub on one end and AC does not.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 3):
If there was enough O&D between YWG and MSP (and AC definitely have the stats) then no doubt there would be a dedicated service on a relatively short route- the fact there isn't means they're seeing a completely different picture.

That's the big point. AC (and most airlines) have access to numbers we can only dream of. If AC is not flying the route, then it is because using those numbers, they know it is not worthwhile.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecanadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter):
With 164,123 people flying this route in 2011 and Delta Airlines upgrading equipment and frequencies on the route, there is clearly enough room for two airlines here.

Where do you get the numbers for pax on a route?

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter):
I have been confused for years as to why the route is only served by one airline (Delta).

I have been confused by this myself. The fares for a flight YWG-MSP are astronomically high.

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 2):
Although a sizable portion of it would be O&D, it would give Air Canada pax traveling to/from MSP from cities in western Canada like YYC, YVR, YEG, YQR, YXE etc. a time saving option connecting to Minneapolis in Winnipeg as opposed to connecting at YYZ or ORD.

All of those markets you listed have non-stop service from MSP on DL already. I don't know if pax would switch from a non-stop service on DL to a 1-stop service AC/Star. How many ppl fly MSP-YYC/YVR/YEG/YQR/YXE via ORD/YYZ?



Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 8):
I have been confused by this myself. The fares for a flight YWG-MSP are astronomically high.

That is common with a monopoly, and certainly one of the factors assessed when thinking about opening a route. I am sure AC has already assessed this route, however, I wonder if WS is looking at it.

Some trans-border routes are just "owned" by airlines and competition never seems to shake the dominance. Like AC on YYZ-LAX/SFO or AA on YYZ-DFW. Yes, there is competition, but it is minimal at best.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

DL operates 6x daily CRJ on YWG-MSP. This reduces to 5x daily from mid-August but 2 (or 3 depending on the day) of the daily flights will upgrade to E170/E175. It's a small market (even allowing for connecting pax) and even smaller when just considering O+D traffic.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
I can remember seeing DC-10's scheduled to be running this route at some point in the past with NW.

Yupp. The NW D10 overnighted at YWG.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
I am sure AC has already assessed this route, however, I wonder if WS is looking at it.

WS might consider it with the Q400, but even then I think it's doubtful.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinecanadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1508 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
It's a small market (even allowing for connecting pax) and even smaller when just considering O+D traffic.

I think most of pax are connecting at MSP for somewhere else.

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter):
With 164,123 people flying this route in 2011

This number seems extremely high to me. That must be the number of people on planes flying YWG-MSP, but not O&D YWG-MSP. What percentage of those pax are terminating in MSP vs. connecting in MSP? I suspect it is a pretty small number.

That is almost 450 pax per day. At 5 round trips a day, that is 45 per flight.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 8):
I have been confused by this myself. The fares for a flight YWG-MSP are astronomically high.

That is common with a monopoly, and certainly one of the factors assessed when thinking about opening a route.

Oh yeah... I know. One can fly cheaper through MSP to somewhere else on DL than to MSP on Delta.



Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
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