Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1675 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9455 times:
I Hope you don't shoot me for this questions, I'm just asking because one sentence in this article caught my attention and I hope someone can clarify this for me. I know some European carriers are loosing money, and are asking the best effort from their workers at any level, but this seems to be a little exaggerated ( if true ) .
Here says that the F/O was incapacitated , and another pilot, who was on the flight "amongst the cabin crew" , took the place of the ill pilot and continued the flight.
( AFAIK, "cabin crew" are flight attendants and everyone involved in customer service for the passengers, while a Pilot/Co-pilot is "Flight Crew" ).
Is VS asking the pilots to perform as "cabin crew" occasionally ? And if the answer is yes, do you know why ???
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8746 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9439 times:
It sounds like one of the flight attendants had a commercial pilot rating, rather than was an actual pilot for VS. It's not that uncommon to find flight attendants to have pilot ratings. They are involved in aviation afterall and flight attendants can go to pilot training too!
It is also possible there could have been a deadheading or non-reving pilot on board too. LHR-BOS is short enough to not need any relief crew, but it could have been a relief pilot as well.
[Edited 2012-08-07 11:06:24]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
slinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 592 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9391 times:
Per one response to the AV article there were eight positioning crew members on the flight, one was a FO and when the crew heard of the problem he or she stepped into the flight deck.
jwhite9185 From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 722 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9391 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1): It is also possible there could have been a deadheading or non-reving pilot on board too. LHR-BOS is short enough to not need any relief crew, but it could have been a relief pilot as well.
Read about this a few weeks back and I'm pretty sure that was the case.
GT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1724 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9391 times:
I maybe wrong but even though pilots are in command of an aircraft, I don't think they are necassarilly trained to be cabin crew. If there were there would be a quasi-pilot/cabin crew rank and there isn't one at VS to the best of my knowledge. Besides, why employ a pilot on a pilots salary to then work as cabin crew. Hardly efficient is it?
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8746 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9299 times:
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 5): I maybe wrong but even though pilots are in command of an aircraft, I don't think they are necassarilly trained to be cabin crew. If there were there would be a quasi-pilot/cabin crew rank and there isn't one at VS to the best of my knowledge. Besides, why employ a pilot on a pilots salary to then work as cabin crew. Hardly efficient is it?
Sometimes pilots can be trained as cabin crews. Occasionally as a way to break a flight attendant strike (some pilots allow them to be scabs for FA's while others do not).
Also some airlines like People Express cross trained people and would regularly have pilots working as flight attendants, flight attendants as gate agents, etc.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1675 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9227 times:
Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 6): During the BA cabin crew strike, there were some flight deck crew working as cabin crew....I was served by a F/O on the MCT-AUH-LHR leg.
Now that you mention, I think I read something about that a few years ago ( was 2009 or 2010 maybe ? )
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7): Sometimes pilots can be trained as cabin crews. Occasionally as a way to break a flight attendant strike (some pilots allow them to be scabs for FA's while others do not).
I wonder how that kind of situations can affect the environment on board once the strike ends and the F/A are back... I guess some cups of coffee are "accidentally" spilled over the pilots
virgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 411 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8621 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1): It sounds like one of the flight attendants had a commercial pilot rating, rather than was an actual pilot for VS. It's not that uncommon to find flight attendants to have pilot ratings. They are involved in aviation afterall and flight attendants can go to pilot training too!
I agree, I have flown with many cabin crew at VS, that want to be pilots 'flight crew' and have a commercial pilots licence with flying hours under their belts.
In the event of a pilot becoming incapacitated, then it is procedure for a member of the cabin crew to sit in that pilots seat anyway... to read checklists etc...
In this case it was just a bonus that one of the cabin crew had a commercial licence.
virgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 411 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8482 times:
I've just spoken to a friend, who was working cabin crew on that flight....
There were 8 positioning crew on the flight (dead heading) and one of them was a qualified First Officer, when the Flight Service Manager (FSM) heard of the incapacitation, the positioning FO offered their services and the captain agreed with the authority of VS Operations in London.
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1675 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8465 times:
Quoting virgincrew (Reply 10): There were 8 positioning crew on the flight (dead heading) and one of them was a qualified First Officer, when the Flight Service Manager (FSM) heard of the incapacitation, the positioning FO offered their services and the captain agreed with the authority of VS Operations in London.
Thank you for your very clear explanation. Mystery solved
dcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3419 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1): It sounds like one of the flight attendants had a commercial pilot rating, rather than was an actual pilot for VS.
Do you know any? I don't think so. If they did have one, why would they serve drinks and clean trays for $14 per hour if they could seat up front for $150 per hour?
bok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3102 times:
Quoting dcaviation (Reply 15):
Do you know any? I don't think so. If they did have one, why would they serve drinks and clean trays for $14 per hour if they could seat up front for $150 per hour?
Big difference between being having a commercial pilot's rating, and having the hours and experience needed to get in the right seat of an airliner (which often requires an Airline Transport Pilot rating, which I believe requires 1500 hours of flight time).
virgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 411 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2795 times:
Quoting bok269 (Reply 16): Quoting dcaviation (Reply 15):
Do you know any? I don't think so. If they did have one, why would they serve drinks and clean trays for $14 per hour if they could seat up front for $150 per hour?
Big difference between being having a commercial pilot's rating, and having the hours and experience needed to get in the right seat of an airliner (which often requires an Airline Transport Pilot rating, which I believe requires 1500 hours of flight time).
exactly......
there are cabin crew at Virgin Atlantic that I have worked with and they have commercial pilots licence, they are working as cabin crew whilst they get the experience and flying hours under their belt (in their spare time).
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1006 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1620 times:
Quoting virginson937 (Reply 12): Were the crew and the FO deadheading all VS employed crew? Or did they work for another airline?
There are 2 hints. 1, the Op writes they were positioning 8 crew members. That implies the airline flying is positioning their own crew. EU based airlines don't position the crew members of other airlines like that - if you're a BA needing to hitch a ride on VS, you go buy x amount of tickets. 2, it states the FO was "qualified". That, to me, means he/she was not only an employee of the airline, but qualified on the aircraft type on which the incident took place.
So, all in all, I think it's pretty safe to assume the FO was a VS employee.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
JRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4598 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1283 times:
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 18): EU based airlines don't position the crew members of other airlines like that - if you're a BA needing to hitch a ride on VS, you go buy x amount of tickets.
While probably true in a lot of cases, and I agree with your final assessment, this generalisation is wrong! While positioning on other airlines is not ideal, it happens, and it happens a lot!
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