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New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 37  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 21174 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

The previous thread has become quite long and difficult to manage for some users. Please feel free to add your contributions to the new thread.

Part 36 can be found here: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 36

Please continue to enjoy the website!  


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
277 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 21166 times:

Just missed the cutoff...


From the just-closed thread:
Quoting stlgph (Reply 215):
Trenton, NJ now appears on the route map.

Holy cow! That's outta nowhere. Fairly close to ABE at that, not to mention PHL, then again they dropped EWR (via Midwest). Would like them to connect the dot to DEN if possible.


Quoting nkops (Reply 216):
TSA will have to set up shop at TTN now as I believe there is no sked service there

There was scheduled service as recent as a few years ago, I think. There is a regular airline terminal, though small. TTN served as one of Shuttle America's first cities and of course, it was HQ for Eastwind, but that was prior to 2001.

-Rampart


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 21151 times:

Here is the schedule. It looks like it will operate twice a week on Monday and Friday starting on November 16.

FLIGHT DATE SEGMENT DPTR ARVL MLS EQP ELPD MILES SM
1 F9 316 16NOV MCO TTN 725A 950A 319 2.25 890 N
2 F9 317 16NOV TTN MCO 1030A 105P 319 2.35 890 N


User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 21126 times:

In the past when TTN had service, it was usually ACY agents that went to TTN for screening... They did this in ILG also

I wonder if the screening equip is still there though



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 21093 times:

With the TTN service, this puts F9 at 38 flights per week this winter at MCO. Too bad it looks like DSM isn't coming back. But at least OMA got upgraded to the Airbus.


Good goes around!
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 21037 times:

F9's Facebok post said destinations in 6 states, 2 states being new to F9. So, it is possible we might only see one more announcement from F9 this week.

We are up to 5 states now (Colorado, Arizona, North Carolina, Florida and New Jersey). My fingers were crossed for CRW but that seems unlikely since F9 doesn't serve West Virginia now and North Carolina and New Jersey are the 2 states that F9 will be new to. Hopefully, I'll be surprised with a few more route announcements this week, but it appears we might only get one more. COS - LAS maybe?


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 21035 times:

TTN to a certain extent also gives residents of the State of Delaware another option besides PHL to the south and EWR to the north. For now Delaware remains shutout as the only state without regularly scheduled commercial aviation service. If memory serves me Trenton is also in close proximity to the Fort Dix Army base and McGuire AFB.

Because F9 serves EWR; according to my count leaves 2 existing routes/states and one new state. The second new state if the pattern continues should be announced tomorrow; existing-new-existing-new? In true A-net fashion I had a weird dream/though last night of GPT as the other new market and Mississippi would be a new State. GPT sits roughly halfway between MSY and MOB with a catchment area of three states.

Not in this round of announcements; I was thinking about MOB-CUN for the Apple side. CUN is almost a straight shot due south of MOB. Apple of course would most likely be the primary driver in that sort of route announcement. A due south route should take the aircraft off the west bank of Cuba. To my knowledge all U.S. aviation has to avoid Cuban airspace without clearance. The new Airbus facility when it comes on line might be a driver for MOB.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 21027 times:

Quoting nkops (Reply 3):
We are up to 5 states now (Colorado, Arizona, North Carolina, Florida and New Jersey)

I'm not counting it that way. I understood the four existing markets solely on the destination side not the origin side. Time will tell.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 21011 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 6):
Because F9 serves EWR; according to my count leaves 2 existing routes/states and one new state.

F9 no longer serves EWR, at least according to their route map. I believe they pulled service earlier this year. I guess this means New Jersey is the 2nd new state?


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 20928 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 8):
F9 no longer serves EWR, at least according to their route map

My bad. As pixels go I assumed/understood that dot on the route map to be EWR. When in fact if you point at it, it is LGA. It does appear to be on the NJ side and about where EWR would be. http://www.frontierairlines.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinen917me From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 20927 times:

I wish they would serve my old state of Delaware. I believe DL and Skybus served Wilmington for a very short time. Really Wilmington is the only airport in.DE that could support scheduled service, the only other place would be Dover AFB, which would.be great for all those in lower DE and the Maryland shore.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 20885 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 7):

I went back and re-read the Facebook page; it states "Next week we’ll announce new routes with destinations in six states - two of which are NEW"

The sea lawyer in me interpreted destinations" to be six additional destinations; four in existing States and two in new States. The origin airport did not enter the count/equation in my mind.

The armchair route planner in me could be swayed into thinking a new route to be a city pair which constitutes a origin and destination airport. My brain hurts!



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 20867 times:

So now I believe that the F9 n/s routes to/from MCO are DEN, COS, MCI, DSM, MSN, BMI, MKE, TYS, GSO, MDT, ABE and TTN. (any corrections appreciated here)

However, with these less than weekly flights, I would think that MCO sees an average of about 5 or so in and 5 or so out F9 flights per day with 12 destinations.

Would anyone think that Apple Vacations would somehow eventually work their way in here, or that F9/Apple will become symbiotic with this, in the way that they are doing with the Mexico/Caribbean destinations? Maybe not going so far as to 'charter' the whole plane, but at least work with package deals?

And now of course the possibilities with dot connection appear, and DEN to/from ORD/CVG/CLE/PIT/BWI/ABE/TTN certainly are now more possible, and maybe get some $$$$ with re-positions.

Quoting mariner (Reply 213):
I'm not sure they would include Jamaica as a "state" but - maybe.

Details.... details......

I have yet to experience Montego Bay, so if they do, and maybe if the low intro fares are right, maybe time to dig out the swim trunks and sun screen, eh?

 


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20796 times:

DSM-MCO is not returning this winter so it'll be 11 destinations

User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20795 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 6):
State of Delaware another option besides PHL to the south and EWR to the north.

Your geography lobe is off today, Gent.   Both PHL and EWR are north of Delaware. Delaware has BWI to the southwest or west, if that's what you meant, which is closer than EWR. But I agree, TTN could be an option for northern Delaware, it's a short jaunt up to TTN, but not much shorter than to BWI.

-Rampart


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20775 times:

F9 just posted on Facebook that, "We've still got one more route to announce tomorrow."

User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20763 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 15):

So they must have included MCO and DEN in the six cities



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20759 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 12):
So now I believe that the F9 n/s routes to/from MCO are DEN, COS, MCI, DSM, MSN, BMI, MKE, TYS, GSO, MDT, ABE and TTN. (any corrections appreciated here)

No MCI or DSM this season unfortunately   As of today's announcement, they'll have 38 weekly flights to 11 destinations. Wednesday will be the peak with 7 flights, while Tuesday will be the minimum with 4 flights. Everything else has 5 or 6 flights. This winter, also, all MCO flying will be Airbus, no E90s in MCO this year.



Good goes around!
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 20703 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 17):
No MCI or DSM this season unfortunately   As of today's announcement, they'll have 38 weekly flights to 11 destinations. Wednesday will be the peak with 7 flights, while Tuesday will be the minimum with 4 flights. Everything else has 5 or 6 flights. This winter, also, all MCO flying will be Airbus, no E90s in MCO this year.

Thank you kindly for that......

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 15):
F9 just posted on Facebook that, "We've still got one more route to announce tomorrow."

and who knows, the above can still change again after tomorrow's announcement, eh?


 


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 20600 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Delaware has BWI to the southwest or west

A brain fart I suppose. Yes I meant to write BWI to the South and west. I had the New Jersey coastline from Atlantic City down to Cape May and knew PHL was closest largest airport. Thanks for keeping me in   



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20497 times:
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Quoting rampart (Reply 1):
Trenton, NJ now appears on the route map.

Knock me down with a feather.

I thought AZA was very interesting, GSO okay if not inspiring, but TTN scratches more than one itch. I've only ever been to Trenton once - dinner with a crazy art professor from Princeton - so I know three tenths of sweet f.a. about it.

No reason why it can't work and I assume (?) Frontier is cushioned by revenue guarantees. It surely taps into that north-east/Florida corridor and there is the proximity of Princeton to consider.

I assume the biggest problem will be to persuade people that there is service at TTN. I'll be following this one with more than usual interest.

 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20438 times:

Quoting nkops (Reply 16):
So they must have included MCO and DEN in the six cities

Six states. So Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Florida, and North Carolina. Meaning:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 15):
F9 just posted on Facebook that, "We've still got one more route to announce tomorrow."

Which will be in a state not Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Florida, or North Carolina. My guess is either a DEN route for one of the eastern cities with only MCO service (ABE maybe) or an MCO route for a city that already has DEN service (PHF?).


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5011 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 20392 times:

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 21):


Six states. So Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Florida, and North Carolina. Meaning:

After the shock of TTN, I wonder if there's a chance for ILG?



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 20362 times:

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 21):
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 15):
F9 just posted on Facebook that, "We've still got one more route to announce tomorrow."

Which will be in a state not Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Florida, or North Carolina. My guess is either a DEN route for one of the eastern cities with only MCO service (ABE maybe) or an MCO route for a city that already has DEN service (PHF?).

Frontier really seems to be willing to try anything right now. Its a bold strategy but i love it, at least they are trying some new stuff and things outside of Denver! I am going to guess its LAS related

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
No reason why it can't work and I assume (?) Frontier is cushioned by revenue guarantees. It surely taps into that north-east/Florida corridor and there is the proximity of Princeton to consider.

I cant imagine they got a revenue guarantee for twice ish a week TTN service since the airport is owned by the county and its a vacation route with little business benefit. Maybe some reduced fees the typical new airline stuff. I would certainly like to find out but i think we will know since its county owned and nj tends to make alot of this stuff public.

I think frontier is just really trying to see if they can find some unique and crazy markets that work and print cash competition free. Frontier knows it needs some routes other than Denver and seems to be interested in making the allegiant model work or at least try. It will either accelerate frontiers slow denver only painful death or the bold moves will allow it to have a chance to make some money consistently for a chance of long term survival. Frontier needs to do something to give some faith in the airline, so they can borrow at reasonable rates etc etc. I think they see the allegiant model and think its their best chance of long term survival for whatever reason

[Edited 2012-08-08 15:15:08]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20342 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
I cant imagine they got a revenue guarantee for twice ish a week TTN service since the airport is owned by the state and its a vacation route with little business benefit. Maybe some reduced fees the typical new airline stuff. I would certainly like to find out but i think we will know since its state owned.

I wouldn't take on a virtually empty airport without some help from someone. What TTN wants is traffic at TTN, so I'd expect "help."

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
It will either accelerate frontiers slow denver only painful death or the bold moves will allow it to have a chance to make some money consistently for a chance of long term survival.

I don't see a slow or painful death at Denver.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20495 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 22):
After the shock of TTN, I wonder if there's a chance for ILG?

According to the FAA URL; ILG (Wilmington, DE) is a class 1 Part 139 airport. They are permitted to embark pax beyond the nine permitted for non-certified Part 139 airports. Nearby DOV as a DOD airport would not have to abide by the Part 139 criteria if it was joint use. I don't think it is.

[Edited 2012-08-08 15:33:19]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20473 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 25):
They are permitted to embark pax beyond the nine permitted for non-certified Part 139 airports.

DL, UA, AL, and Shuttle America did serve ILG at one time or another. I recall the UA was with mainline, back in the time they were advertising "Serving all 50 states". Mid 80s I think. DL was most recent, I think. I don't recall if it was mainline, I thought it was, but perhaps just Comair or Business Express.

-Rampart


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20614 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
It will either accelerate frontiers slow denver only painful death or the bold moves will allow it to have a chance to make some money consistently for a chance of long term survival.

I don't see a slow or painful death at Denver.

I know you love frontier its just IMHO i think they cant be denver only and survive

I just think a denver only airline is doomed long term and frontier management i bet also thinks that or they would fly just out of denver and not try all this risky stuff.

How many US airlines have survived in just in one city especially with all those connections they do? What happens if we hit the worst of all denver winters ever and there are a few huge storms in a row in denver followed by a few days of extreme wind or another massive hail storm again. Frontier has literally nowhere else to route anyone thru. It will be a disaster in the making. MCO is a bad location but at least they could have some of the airline flying and making profits instead of all the planes in denver they cant place all bets one city IMHO. No one has survived that way and i think there is a reason frontier is trying all these new cities and routes post MKE its to prevent themselves from being a DEN only airline.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20619 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 27):
I know you love frontier its just IMHO i think they cant be denver only and survive

I'm not saying they should be "Denver only." I've been one of the loudest voices for other places.

But I don't see a slow and painful death at DEN.

As Sean Menke said, there has to be more to Frontier than DEN - but DEN has to be profitable first. If the primary hub isn't profitable, what's the point?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20479 times:

Per the same source that told me about DEN-GSO earlier this week, F9 will give FAR another go around. Look for F9 to announce DEN-FAR tomorrow

User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2876 posts, RR: 30
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20446 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 4):
With the TTN service, this puts F9 at 38 flights per week this winter at MCO. Too bad it looks like DSM isn't coming back. But at least OMA got upgraded to the Airbus.

I looked at February and come up with 42/week so far:

14x to DEN
5x to MDT
4x to ABE
3x to GSO
3x to MKE
3x to COS
3x to BMI
2x to OMA
2x to TYS
2x to TTN
1x to MSN

The "so far" is because it looks like there's slack in the current schedule for a morning MCO-xxx-MCO flight three days per week. So I'm guessing there's one more Orlando destination coming tomorrow using that slack.


User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 618 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20429 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 29):
Per the same source that told me about DEN-GSO earlier this week, F9 will give FAR another go around. Look for F9 to announce DEN-FAR tomorrow

,

DEN-FAR did pretty well, periodically. During the bleak winter, many flights were very empty, no different than other airlines that time of year. However, when they were full, they had a very high percentage of Mexico connections. There is a short window for full flights, usually July-August, and F9 had high load factors during that period. Yield could have been, and should have been higher however. F9 is really deficient in yield management. They frequently will fill an entire airplane with the lowest fare bucket, so they'll lose money when they could have broken even, or even made a small profit.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20406 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 29):
Per the same source that told me about DEN-GSO earlier this week, F9 will give FAR another go around. Look for F9 to announce DEN-FAR tomorrow
FAR doesn't ring my bell - I spent a year there one week-end - and I'm puzzled they'd restart it in the winter, but they probably have information that I don't have.

FAR-MCO might do it for me.

mariner

[Edited 2012-08-08 18:26:28]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 618 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20375 times:

G4 flies FAR-SFB. I doubt that a market the size of Fargo could support two carriers on the route.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20376 times:
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Quoting azstar (Reply 33):
G4 flies FAR-SFB. I doubt that a market the size of Fargo could support two carriers on the route.

I'm struggling to think there's enough for two carriers on DEN-FAR - in the winter. As you said:

Quoting azstar (Reply 31):
During the bleak winter, many flights were very empty, no different than other airlines that time of year.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20345 times:

There is always a chance my source is wrong too. I definitely trust the source enough to put money on the destination as being FAR, but I guess it could always be MCO-FAR. The source was right about MCO-GSO but I do agree DEN-FAR starting in November does not seem very logical.

User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3796 posts, RR: 7
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 20262 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 30):
The "so far" is because it looks like there's slack in the current schedule for a morning MCO-xxx-MCO flight three days per week. So I'm guessing there's one more Orlando destination coming tomorrow using that slack.

Fingers crossed, but I think Charlie west remains out of luck. I appreciate Mariner and Gustywinds pulling for my city as well.

That said, Smoot was right before so I'm going to assume he's got the inside info again. Congrats to which ever city gets more service tomorrow.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 20241 times:

F9 is really doing some interesting things. They are totally showing a G4 type of operation outside of DEN. Is it me or is MCO looking like a new focus city?


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 20063 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 30):

I used December, not February. I'm sure by February, there will be more adjustments. Maybe some reductions ala DSM and MCI or maybe some exciting new adds.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 20052 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 35):
There is always a chance my source is wrong too. I definitely trust the source enough to put money on the destination as being FAR, but I guess it could always be MCO-FAR.

FAR is indeed on the route map this morning.


User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 20043 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 39):

FAR is indeed on the route map this morning.

It will be very interesting to see what kind of frequency they give this one. Last go around, it was multiple dailies on Q400s. Since all the new announcements seem to be Airbus flying, I would imagine it will be less than daily.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 19996 times:

Ok so quick recap of the week. I want to sound positive but I don't know how I feel about some of these routes.

AZA - so now serving two airports in a heavy leisure market with WN, US, UA, and G4 serving either the area or close to the area.

GSO-MCO - already has G4....

TTN - last time anyone served was DL? Pan Am? Before that East Wind.....

FAR - what pulled out of there maybe a year and a half ago.....

SBN - could be awesome.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind going into markets where there is already someone flying the route. Certainly am not saying back down from competing but why not try to enter markets where there is no direct competition? And if MCO is becoming a focus city why aren't other good sized F9 markets connected? DCA, IND, MDW - and I know there are already a few flights in those markets but wouldn't it make sense connect some of the larger F9 stations?

[Edited 2012-08-09 06:35:13]


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19946 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 35):
I guess it could always be MCO-FAR

If I lived in North Dakota across the Winter months I rather fly to MCO. If it were FAR-MCI the only tie in might be oil related.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19941 times:

Frontier's homepage is showing FAR-DEN, not MCO..... didn't they just drop this not too long ago??


BTW, there has been a rumor that RAH was awarded the national contract from Caesars Entertainment to provide charters for their US properties... they will be replacing SkyKing in ACY, and Allegiant in UTM and Laughlin (dont know code).. anybody from RAH on here know anything about this?? I was told Caesars wanted an aircraft around 100 seats and I believe the 190 holds 99.



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19943 times:

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 41):
IND

Call me crazy and I'll play armchair, but depending where the schedule ends up after AirTran vanishes into Southwest, Frontier, if it's still around (let us hope) - I could see them making a handful of flights from Indianapolis work. A run to Orlando, Tampa, Sarasota, and Ft Myers might serve them well. And yes, I know they don't currently serve Sarasota and yes I know they're leisure routes, but they've worked in the past for carriers.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19948 times:

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 21):
Six states. So Colorado, Arizona, New Jersey, Florida, and North Carolina. Meaning:

I suppose I'm putting to much emphasis on "new destinations" I still feel the way F9 promoted Colorado one of the six new destinations/routes is skewed. Colorado in my mind as F9 major hub of operations would be an origin airport.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19974 times:

Quoting nkops (Reply 43):
BTW, there has been a rumor that RAH was awarded the national contract from Caesars Entertainment to provide charters for their US properties... they will be replacing SkyKing in ACY, and Allegiant in UTM and Laughlin (dont know code).. anybody from RAH on here know anything about this?? I was told Caesars wanted an aircraft around 100 seats and I believe the 190 holds 99.

Bryan Bedford said on the Q2 call that they were finalizing an agreement to re-deploy 5 E190 aircraft in a charter arrangement "similar to a CPA" so that would make a lot of sense.



Good goes around!
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19941 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 46):
Bryan Bedford said on the Q2 call that they were finalizing an agreement to re-deploy 5 E190 aircraft in a charter arrangement "similar to a CPA" so that would make a lot of sense.

It will be nice to see something different around ACY... this is one of the reasons I was hoping for Frontier sked service to cycle the aircraft in and out



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19946 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 46):
Bryan Bedford said on the Q2 call that they were finalizing an agreement to re-deploy 5 E190 aircraft in a charter arrangement "similar to a CPA" so that would make a lot of sense.

Which would also co-inside with Allegiant retiring their M87s which was flying for this contract, too. That could be a great thing for whoever is taking the charters. Newer aircraft and wifi? Could be a great promotion for Caesers.


User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19927 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 45):
I suppose I'm putting to much emphasis on "new destinations" I still feel the way F9 promoted Colorado one of the six new destinations/routes is skewed. Colorado in my mind as F9 major hub of operations would be an origin airport.

It was never 6 new routes or destinations. It was just announcements that affected six states, the sixth now being North Dakota.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 19931 times:

It's Denver to Fargo.

It's on the route map.

I just received the press release via email - 3 weekly nonstop flights starting November 16.


Edit - here is a link to the press release.

Interesting to note they point out the service this time around is on jets - rather than turboprops.

Welcome back to Fargo, Frontier Airlines.

http://media.frontierairlines.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5379

[Edited 2012-08-09 07:12:23]

Second edit - adding flight times.


Route Departs Arrives Frequency Aircraft
DEN-FAR 7:10 p.m. 9:55 p.m. Mon/Wed/Fri A319
FAR-DEN 10:00 a.m. 10:55 a.m. Tues/Thurs/Sat A319


[Edited 2012-08-09 07:15:05]


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinec152driver From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 19854 times:

This is the third time Frontier has tried FAR. I don't see it lasting long. The schedule doesn't look very good to me, and I'm not sure how three flights a week to DEN is going to hold up against multiple daily flights on UA. I think they would have better results with daily service on an E-Jet like they're doing in BIS.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19856 times:

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 49):
It was never 6 new routes or destinations. It was just announcements that affected six states, the sixth now being North Dakota.

Word for word from the F9 Facebook page.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 11):
"Next week well announce new routes with destinations in six states - two of which are NEW"



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 618 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19840 times:

I don't have any details, but it would be interesting to see how many of the "new" markets Frontier has started in the last two years have survived. Some are still receiving revenue guarantees, but when those stop so will the service, I believe. I think way more than 50% of the markets established by Daniel Shurz have been discontinued. Most are WN avoidance markets and they may have, possibly, worked with 70 or 99 seat aircraft, but will struggle with Airbus aircraft.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19785 times:

Quoting c152driver (Reply 51):
This is the third time Frontier has tried FAR. I don't see it lasting long.


I have a hunch the North Dakota oil boom drove the FAR announcement. A few years ago somebody posted DEN has a fairly significant role in oil. At the time we were discussing potential service between Calgary and DFW also for oil.

If F9 has abandoned FAR twice before I can see the flying public rebelling against the carrier; under the here today, gone tomorrow mindset.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19759 times:

Quoting c152driver (Reply 51):
This is the third time Frontier has tried FAR. I don't see it lasting long. The schedule doesn't look very good to me, and I'm not sure how three flights a week to DEN is going to hold up against multiple daily flights on UA. I think they would have better results with daily service on an E-Jet like they're doing in BIS.

I have to agree. Not just that, but I suspect previous FAR frequent fliers would be hesitant to book on them after showing how bipolar they have been on that route.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19763 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 52):

Word for word from the F9 Facebook page.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 11):
"Next week well announce new routes with destinations in six states - two of which are NEW"

Still doesn't say six new routes. DEN and MCO still count as destinations and account for 2 of the states.

Quoting azstar (Reply 53):
I don't have any details, but it would be interesting to see how many of the "new" markets Frontier has started in the last two years have survived. Some are still receiving revenue guarantees, but when those stop so will the service, I believe. I think way more than 50% of the markets established by Daniel Shurz have been discontinued. Most are WN avoidance markets and they may have, possibly, worked with 70 or 99 seat aircraft, but will struggle with Airbus aircraft.

I'd be curious to know what the actual statistic is on this vs. a guess. And don't include routes from MCI and MKE, since I don't think many of those got revenue guarantees anyway. However, I don't get how trying new markets is frowned upon by some. If they never add any new markets, they are just standing still and will continue to lose ground.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6533 posts, RR: 51
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19682 times:

Nice to see Frontier add some non-Denver flying, but the more I think about it, the more I scratch my head in regard to the MCO additions, if for no other reason than MCO is notoriously low yield. I'm not sure if any of the MCO routes will make money when all is said and done. Is there a strong marketing push to increase brand awareness in Orlando its nonstop markets? AirTran was a very popular brand name in Florida and the Eastern seaboard when they were flying all the MCO p2p routes. I doubt that F9 is at the current time. It's an interesting experiment, and I wish them well...just scratching my head a bit.

User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19661 times:

Quoting nkops (Reply 43):
BTW, there has been a rumor that RAH was awarded the national contract from Caesars Entertainment to provide charters for their US properties... they will be replacing SkyKing in ACY, and Allegiant in UTM and Laughlin (dont know code).. anybody from RAH on here know anything about this?? I was told Caesars wanted an aircraft around 100 seats and I believe the 190 holds 99.

Asmentioned above this is likely the deal BB talks about on the call. My opinion is that they will be branded as Republic Airlines though. (Think the livery that went on the spare E170s). This could also give some clue as to what they are thinking with the C-Series. Republic could end up with a sizable operation similar to the Sun Country charter stuff. The irony might be that Republic could start to compete with Frontier in the future for contracts such as Apple.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 19651 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 58):
The irony might be that Republic could start to compete with Frontier in the future for contracts such as Apple.

Republic is already competing with F9 as they are now flying the Qs around DEN for UA.

This will probably be a problem with any serious 'investors' who Republic hopes to have as they attempt their 'separation' from F9. A non-compete clause suddenly get very complicated.

  


User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 19623 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 59):
Republic is already competing with F9 as they are now flying the Qs around DEN for UA.

These certainly aren't the first overlapping routes in the whole RJET system. The problem with the argument is that those routes would probably served by someone flying for UA whether or not it is Republic. F9 is competing with United. Republic doesn't choose the routes and set fares for its Q400s, and instead RJET makes money from both F9 and some United flying in DEN. From RJET's perspective, its all good.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 19559 times:

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 56):
Still doesn't say six new routes.

I don't believe I said it did. In summary it does say six destinations though. Just as O&D are two separate measures which I'll admit is can be pulled into one. I put a lot of separation between origin and destination. Unless they were referring to the New in New Jersey as a hint; I don't think they should have used new state for TTN in that they previously served EWR. Oh well that's just me.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19535 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 57):
Is there a strong marketing push to increase brand awareness

Given the recent build-up in the central eastern seaboard. You would almost think the Pennsylvania Dutch have started flying. It has to be the critter tails. In the Summer of 2007 I met twenty or so P-D sailing the Alaska Marine Highway to sail from Alaska to Prince Rupert BC Canada. I knew the Mennonites used commercial modes of travel, but not the P-Dutch.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5456 posts, RR: 29
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19495 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 55):
I have to agree. Not just that, but I suspect previous FAR frequent fliers would be hesitant to book on them after showing how bipolar they have been on that route.

I agree, but I don't think that's who F9 is going for this time (or anymore, really). They seem to be moving towards the low end of the totem pole, so to speak. Not a bad thing at all - it's just another segment.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 57):
Nice to see Frontier add some non-Denver flying, but the more I think about it, the more I scratch my head in regard to the MCO additions, if for no other reason than MCO is notoriously low yield. I'm not sure if any of the MCO routes will make money when all is said and done.

Well, it works for Allegiant, which seems to have gotten F9's attention. Obviously the models aren't the same, but they seem to be morphing in that direction more and more.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19468 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 57):
Nice to see Frontier add some non-Denver flying, but the more I think about it, the more I scratch my head in regard to the MCO additions, if for no other reason than MCO is notoriously low yield. I'm not sure if any of the MCO routes will make money when all is said and done. Is there a strong marketing push to increase brand awareness in Orlando its nonstop markets? AirTran was a very popular brand name in Florida and the Eastern seaboard when they were flying all the MCO p2p routes. I doubt that F9 is at the current time. It's an interesting experiment, and I wish them well...just scratching my head a bit.

There's money in low yield, as Allegiant has shown - their fortunes are based on LAS and SFB. I doubt Allegiant gets too much (any?) of the high yield stuff at LAX.

Spirit's fortunes began at FLL and JetBlue's fortunes are based on the Northeast/Florida corridor. David Neeleman, the founding CEO, regretted that JetBlue got "beguiled by transcons."

As to known/not known - you gotta start somewhere. Frontier's new MDT-MCO had a 92% load factor in June and service there is expanding already, as is ABE-MCO.

I doubt the Apple traffic to CUN and PUJ is high yield, but they make money and I'm pleased to see the Frontier build-up there.

MCO won't all be gravy - I think they're wise to avoid head-ons with Southwest - but my view is "more MCO."  
Quoting stlgph (Reply 50):
It's Denver to Fargo.

I'm still scratching my head, but I've had a couple of emails defending it, not as somewhere folk want to go to in winter, but somewhere folk want to get away from - snowbird traffic.

Fair enough. Daniel Shurz has had so many interesting and unexpected wins, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 19346 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
not as somewhere folk want to go to in winter, but somewhere folk want to get away from - snowbird traffic.

You don't have to shovel sunshine in AZA either.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 19238 times:

I really am keeping my fingers crossed that we can see ACY. Frontier seems to be willing to take a gamble on these cities that seem much riskier than ACY.

TTN is a nice facility for a terminal that is practically abandoned for so long but ACY is actually a nice airport there is great facilities theres even a samuel adams brewpub plus many other things its a great terminal. Its spirits own private airport plus a few charters they are lucky to have such a nice terminal almost to themselves for IIRC 8 destinations. I wish frontier would roll into ACY with MCO and DEN. I really think the connection power at DEN could fill a 319 theres gonna be a bunch of people who would fly to LAS, SLC, LAX/SNA, SAN, SFO, PHX out there to fill alot of connecting seats from ACY. Spirit does not offer good connections


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19137 times:

Courtesy the Burlington BTV Free Press "JetBlue announced in early July it will cut the daily non-stop connection between Burlington and Orlando as of Nov. 27. "

Possibly something to keep an eye on for the next round of announcements. With BTV they also get also get a small segment of Canada.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 19030 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 67):
Courtesy the Burlington BTV Free Press "JetBlue announced in early July it will cut the daily non-stop connection between Burlington and Orlando as of Nov. 27. "

Possibly something to keep an eye on for the next round of announcements. With BTV they also get also get a small segment of Canada.

Between B6 and FL, they have cut MCO-BTV/PWM/CRW. All three of those routes could support F9 service.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6533 posts, RR: 51
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18953 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
There's money in low yield, as Allegiant has shown - their fortunes are based on LAS and SFB. I doubt Allegiant gets too much (any?) of the high yield stuff at LAX.

I'd argue that G4 makes a good bit of its money off of the vacation packages it sells, not just the airfare. Also, I believe G4's overall costs are lower than F9?

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
Spirit's fortunes began at FLL and JetBlue's fortunes are based on the Northeast/Florida corridor.

Both of these carriers also have very large route networks to Caribbean and/or Latin America, where they can generate higher yielding traffic. I'm sure this offsets the bottom of the barrel stuff. And again, at least in the case of NK, its overall costs are lower than F9. Not sure about B6.

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
As to known/not known - you gotta start somewhere.

I agree. I just hope the airline sticks to it and sees it through, to whatever end it may be. Hopefully a positive one.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5011 posts, RR: 21
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 18935 times:

Very interesting analysis of Frontier's recent moves:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...gh-solid-revenue-improvement-80187

While some of us may be scratching our heads regarding F9's new strategy, it appears to be paying off and there is a good chart showing how the restructuring has exceeded financial expectations.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18869 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 68):
Between B6 and FL, they have cut MCO-BTV/PWM/CRW. All three of those routes could support F9 service.

It would be interesting to look at all the former B6 and FL routes to MCO and see which could support F9 service. I know a number of them are now served by G4 to Orlando, but in some cases I'd think both G4 and F9 could co-exist since they are usually both less than daily on these routes.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 18724 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 70):
While some of us may be scratching our heads regarding F9's new strategy, it appears to be paying off and there is a good chart showing how the restructuring has exceeded financial expectations.

Along the same line as a hedge just think if F9, NK and G4 joined forces in a LCC/ULCC consortium of sorts for the sole purpose as a volume buyer of bulk fuel beyond any hedges they may already have. I envision five or so airports across the US once at each carriers main hub.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 18672 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 69):
I'd argue that G4 makes a good bit of its money off of the vacation packages it sells, not just the airfare. Also, I believe G4's overall costs are lower than F9?

And I'd agree, on both counts, but they're selling those packages to low yield destinations - Las Vegas and Florida are the lynch pins of its network. And Hawaii is not exactly high yield - or Allegiant isn't going for the high end of it.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 69):
Both of these carriers also have very large route networks to Caribbean and/or Latin America, where they can generate higher yielding traffic.

Jetblue does now, yes. But when it began life its fortune was largely based on the that NE/Florida corridor.

Florida isn't everything to either carrier, of course, and MCO isn't and won't be everything to Frontier, but airlines don't fly to Florida to lose money. Southwest, surely not.

Not every route to Florida is successful - Vision Air's recent catastrophe or the Jetblue cancellations listed above and Frontier has dropped a couple - but on balance I can't think of a better place to build a focus city than MCO and I'm actually a wee bitty disappointed that they didn't announce a couple more routes this week.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 18662 times:

Well folks, this week has been quite the interesting one for Frontier. I rather like the route announcements we saw.

Mesa-Gateway: As a resident currently in Northern Arizona, I am quite glad to see Frontier expand in my current state. I likely will never use this service as it stands, since I would be driving past PHX to do so. It will be interesting to see how it develops. I kind of see this as a similar experiment to the Tampa/St. Petersburg we saw in 2010. The three options I see derived from that are to leave it as is (meaning serve both airports), move ops from PHX to Mesa, or leave Mesa. Should be interesting. I do believe the PHX metro is big enough to serve both airports though.

Orlando to Greensboro and Trenton is also quite interesting. I am glad to see more Orlando announcements, and I believe that a few more could be in the way, getting the operation up to 10 flights a day, or more. If the Pennsylvania service is any indicator, this could well be a successful strategy.

Fargo intrigues me. I'm not sure what to think about it, due to the history as mentioned above. As Mariner points out though, this could do well to help get our North Dakoda friends out of there for a few days, and that has some potential success. I see it as a similar strategy to Orlando, just through Denver.

Next year should be interesting. The fleet will nessasarily retract some more. Looking at the fleet plan, it looks like an A318, and 2 A319s are heading out. Additionally, we know 5 E190s are leaving the fleet in Q4, as will 5 more in Q1 most likely. Thus, we will likely see some cuts coming, and Wichita has already been announced. My hope, is that we will see some route changes in the schedule that allow for some Red Eye flights to get the fleet utilization up. Plus, we may just see some more A320s make there way into the fleet.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 18609 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 74):
I am glad to see more Orlando announcements, and I believe that a few more could be in the way, getting the operation up to 10 flights a day, or more. If the Pennsylvania service is any indicator, this could well be a successful strategy.

I agree! I think the Orlando operation is really exciting for F9 and I love seeing them do some flying that is not Denver-dependent. I also think there could be other similar opportunities out there if this one does well.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 74):
Next year should be interesting. The fleet will nessasarily retract some more. Looking at the fleet plan, it looks like an A318, and 2 A319s are heading out.

That is what worries me. 10 E190s is a lot to lose as far as potential flight count goes. As you mentioned, Wichita is going away. Plus several other E190 stations already have some substantial deductions loaded. For example, BIL loses its afternoon flight entirely in late January and loses service on Saturday entirely. That's the lowest service level for BIL since F9 began service there in 2004. I really hope they scrounge up some second-hand 'buses to fill the gap.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6533 posts, RR: 51
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 18538 times:

DEN-ATL is scheduled to go down to two flights a day in January and remain that way at least through the next schedule extension in March. Did the airline reduce frequency in this market last year or is this something new? This route isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but it's one that's always intrigued me, maybe because of the competition factor in the market.

User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 18575 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 75):

That is what worries me. 10 E190s is a lot to lose as far as potential flight count goes. As you mentioned, Wichita is going away. Plus several other E190 stations already have some substantial deductions loaded. For example, BIL loses its afternoon flight entirely in late January and loses service on Saturday entirely. That's the lowest service level for BIL since F9 began service there in 2004. I really hope they scrounge up some second-hand 'buses to fill the gap.

Yes this concerns me as well. I was looking at flight on OMA-DEN in February and it is down to 2x daily!! Since F9 started to serve OMA in the mid 90's, it hasn't been this low. To be viable to the business traveler, having no afternoon-evening OMA-DEN flight just doesn't work, and the first DEN-OMA flight being at 1:06pm doesn't even come close to working!! I know for a fact there are tons of loyal business travelers that fly this route and if F9 isn't careful, they will loose them permanently to United which flies 5x-6x daily at good times!


User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 885 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18387 times:

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 77):
I was looking at flight on OMA-DEN in February and it is down to 2x daily!! Since F9 started to serve OMA in the mid 90's, it hasn't been this low.

And DSM is down to 6x weekly in February. Just a couple months ago we had 2x daily A319s.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18369 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 78):
And DSM is down to 6x weekly in February. Just a couple months ago we had 2x daily A319s.

On top of that, DSM-MCO/TPA isn't coming back this winter.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18370 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 79):
On top of that, DSM-MCO/TPA isn't coming back this winter.

But DSM gets CUN.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18210 times:

According to one of the other threads G4 is terminating BIL-LAX and FSD-LAX because of terminal issues at LAX. Whether that is short or long term I do not know.

F9 serves or will serve both BIL and FSD. I'm not sure if FSD is on the chopping block. This may allow for some additional business connecting through DEN. F9 may have to tweak their schedules slightly.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17785 times:
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Here's a very good article by Brett Snyder - the Cranky Flier - about the refashioning of Frontier:

http://crankyflier.com/2012/08/13/th...f-frontier-shows-positive-results/

"The Remaking of Frontier Shows Positive Results"

There isn't anything we don't know, but it is a very good overview.

There are some comments about the new FAR which are quite interesting - that the limited service (3 x weekly) may be preferable to the daily or double daily.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 17634 times:

So both RST and LAN have scheduled press releases tomorrow.

User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17402 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 83):
So both RST and LAN have scheduled press releases tomorrow.

It appears to be G4. Allegiant has updated their route map to show both cities. RST to AZA, and LAN to SFB.

[Edited 2012-08-14 08:03:32]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17230 times:
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This is the only source I have about this but I confirmed it on the website and it appears to be dinkum:

http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/...ontier-air-starts-fargo-runs-early

"In response to the overwhelming community support for the return of Frontier's nonstop service between Fargo, N.D. (FAR) and Denver, Colo. (DEN), the Denver-based airline will be starting service a week earlier than originally announced last week. Nonstop service between Denver and Fargo with three weekly nonstop flights will now begin on Nov. 9, 2012. "

I'm never sure about "overwhelming demand" this early in the game when the booked numbers are necessarily low.

However, it could have some validity on TTN-MCO, which is booking well and quickly, and would already justify - I think - an additional frequency, if only for the Christmas period. Spring Break should be interesting.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2274 posts, RR: 3
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17114 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 84):

It appears to be G4. Allegiant has updated their route map to show both cities. RST to AZA, and LAN to SFB.[Edited 2012-08-14 08:03:32]

didn't G4 previously serve LAN but move to GRR? They also served RST to LAS at one point as well.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17064 times:
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The SCASD grants are out and being discussed here:

2012 S.C.A.S.D Awards Announced (by LAXintl Aug 14 2012 in Civil Aviation)

As I say in that thread, there aren't too many that get my Frontier juices flowing and even of the ones there are, I'm not sure that Frontier will take them up.

I'd love to see Frontier pick-up the PHF-BOS route for which PHF has a grant, but I'm not holding my breath it will happen.

And much as I would love to see Frontier start service to the US Virgins from MCO, I'd probably hope for St. Thomas before St. Croix.

BMI has a grant for DCA or LGA service, and I suppose Frontier could try and reorganize the DCA slots, but again, I'm not optimistic. I suspect they'll talk to United for that.

However, I am optimistic about BMI more generally, if this sustains itself:

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local...0-e637-11e1-9161-001a4bcf887a.html

"CIRA gets grant to help add service to D.C. or N.Y.

Earlier this year the chamber launched the Community Air Service Initiative, an effort that raised up to $450,000 from local governments and businesses for use as an incentive for new airlines. That fund was used to bring Frontier Airlines’ service from the Twin Cities to Denver, which launched in May.

Moore declined to say how much money was set aside for any possible financial shortfalls by Frontier during its first year. But so far that route is exceeding expectations, and none of the funds have been paid, said Moore.

The Denver route had a profit of more than $70,000 during its first month, along with passenger capacity of 97 percent, according to information provided by the airline to the McLean County Board."


It doesn't how that profit is booked - but hey, anytime anyone mentions profit I get excited.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16781 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
The SCASD grants are out and being discussed here:

Allentown, PA, (ABE) applied for a fed grant of $138K, for F9 to start DEN-ABE n/s service, but this did not get approved. However, there is still a local grant of $300K, that would have been the match if the fed grant were approved.

Since the fed grant is now not materializing, I would wonder if ABE and F9 can agree that the $300K grant would be enough to entice F9 to start the n/s service here? Since F9 already has ABE-MCO in the works, a DEN-ABE route could be used as a re-position, as well as a LCC route to/from the west. T-100 data for Q4, 2011 shows about 18 pax per day here.

But...... on the other hand, fed approval for F9 were DEN-AVL (Ashville, NC) for $300K, with locals matching that with $400K, and DEN-RST with the fed portion being $500K and locals matching at $225K. These seem like good amounts for F9 to at least get started with these, even if with a less than weekly Republic E190 service, although it seems that the E190s will be running short at Republic soon. Per the T-100, Q4 2011, DEN-AVL shows about 41 pax per day, while DEN-RST shows about 10 pax per day. However, since I would assume that RST can leak some into MSP, DEN-MSP shows about 1778 pax per day, so maybe some of the pax can be captured from here if the route is started.

As for some of these other odds and ends hanging around that F9 could possibly make a stab at, well...... my personal feeling at this point (which is already probably well known to a few) is that if it isn't DEN-centric at this time..... F9 needs to stay away from these. Build up some more profitable quarters... gets some $$$$$ into the bank..... and then maybe sometime in the future consider the elsewhere-from-DEN routes. But right now, F9 needs to keep its focus on doing what it does best..... and that is being DEN-centric.

And how this will all unfold, well.......???

  


User currently offlineUNITED91 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16761 times:

Frontier has just announced Denver-Minot.

Service begins 11/5.

[Edited 2012-08-15 07:38:38]

User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16744 times:

Quoting UNITED91 (Reply 89):
Service begins 11/5.

Looks like 4x weekly (Sun, Mon, Wed, & Fri) through 3/17/13, which I believe is the end of the published schedule.

[Edited 2012-08-15 07:46:10]

User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16699 times:

Frontier is also bumping up its Fargo service. It will be starting November 9, a week earlier than announced.


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16697 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 88):
But...... on the other hand, fed approval for F9 were DEN-AVL (Ashville, NC) for $300K, with locals matching that with $400K

I can't see AVL on F9 with the new GSO service on one side and TYS on the other. As driving goes TYS is closer at some 70+ statute miles; GSO a litter further at 130+ miles from AVL.

I guess the biggest question is where does AVL want to travel. A guess would be ATL or CLT Airports historically have a wish list of desired location where the populous and business leaders want to travel. In my growing up stomping grounds on the Tennessee/KentuckyState-line it is strangely the greater DFW area.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinec152driver From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16665 times:

Quoting UNITED91 (Reply 89):
Frontier has just announced Denver-Minot.

The history of F9 gets more fascinating. When the current incarnation started in the mid-90's, their idea was to service under-served markets, starting with MOT, GFK, BIS, and FAR. When that didn't go well, they switched to a more traditional strategy of competing with UA on the high traffic markets out of DEN.

Now, nearly 20 years later, Frontier seems to be at least partially switching back to its original strategy. I guess it just goes to show you how the market and competitive landscape changes.


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16640 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 92):
I can't see AVL on F9 with the new GSO service on one side and TYS on the other. As driving goes TYS is closer at some 70+ statute miles; GSO a litter further at 130+ miles from AVL.

I guess the biggest question is where does AVL want to travel. A guess would be ATL or CLT Airports historically have a wish list of desired location where the populous and business leaders want to travel. In my growing up stomping grounds on the Tennessee/KentuckyState-line it is strangely the greater DFW area.

While there is probably some leakage to TYS and GSO from the AVL catchment area, my guess is that it is very, very slight. TYS is a 2.5 hour drive from Asheville, and it's not an easy drive, either. GSO is the same driving time. And neither has traditionally been a low-fare airport.

I think AVL-DEN could work, if only because it provides access to another western hub. But the state of Florida is traditionally the highest demand destination to and from AVL. I actually think F9 to MCO could also work alongside the existing G4 service that started at the end of 2011 as replacement for FL.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16576 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 94):
TYS is a 2.5 hour drive from Asheville

I suppose at the wrong time of day 2.5 hours could occur. I've drove Knoxville to Asheville from the I-40/I-75 corridor a handful of times across the last 35 years. As I recall the trip is right at and hour, but less than an hour and a half at 65-70 MPH (maybe a little bit more). The 70+ statute miles airport to airport as driving goes seems about right. Very scenic country in Asheville. Our sitting President seems to like it as well.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 16509 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 95):
I suppose at the wrong time of day 2.5 hours could occur. I've drove Knoxville to Asheville from the I-40/I-75 corridor a handful of times across the last 35 years. As I recall the trip is right at and hour, but less than an hour and a half at 65-70 MPH (maybe a little bit more). The 70+ statute miles airport to airport as driving goes seems about right. Very scenic country in Asheville. Our sitting President seems to like it as well.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the driving distance from TYS to somewhere else? Google Maps shows the driving distance from AVL to TYS at 133 miles. It's a beautiful drive on I-40, although the 30 miles or so through the Pigeon River Gorge is not for the faint of heart.

And yes, it is indeed very scenic country.  


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16390 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 88):
Allentown, PA, (ABE) applied for a fed grant of $138K, for F9 to start DEN-ABE n/s service, but this did not get approved. However, there is still a local grant of $300K, that would have been the match if the fed grant were approved.

I wouldn't fall over in shock if ABE-DEN happened, but I think Frontier is spoiled for choice in that area. I would fall over in shock if MDT-DEN didn't come back next year (I'm a wee bitty surprised they didn't make it year round) and I'd be pretty sure that TTN is Denver Dreaming.

DEN-AVL? Well - mayhap. I know nothing about it, but I think I;d rather see GSO-DEN first.

The puzzle is RST - I find it difficult to believe that it can support both Allegiant to AZA and Frontier to DEN, but I don't know.

I gather there will be another route announced this week - no clues where (except that it may be in the east) or to where - DEN or MCO.

In the general round-up, MDT is to get another low cost carrier tomorrow, with a new route - no clues on that either.

Quoting point2point (Reply 88):
my personal feeling at this point (which is already probably well known to a few) is that if it isn't DEN-centric at this time..... F9 needs to stay away from these.

And I pull the other way - towards MCO.

In the years I have been following Frontier, there have not been many routes which have booked quite so well, quite so quickly - and so far out - as TTN-MCO.

I think they should sell it as Trenton/Princeton.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16339 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 96):
Google Maps shows the driving distance from AVL to TYS at 133 miles

The airport distance calculator I refer to from time to time http://www.calculatorcat.com/free_calculators/airport_distance.phtml shows the distance; airport to airport to be 74 nautical miles 84 statute miles (driving) or 119 kilometers. I'm assuming they use major highways such as I-40 and not rural routing. I will have to check the mileage next time I drive the route.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 96):
although the 30 miles or so through the Pigeon River Gorge is not for the faint of heart.

And that would slow the trip down a bit. The S curves and narrow roads on I-77 in Southwestern Virginia into North Carolina are not a lot of fun either. Sometimes though it is necessary to break the monotony and use the backdoor.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16348 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 97):
And I pull the other way - towards MCO.

MCO is okay with what they are doing. So is Apple. And include COS here as well until proven otherwise.

Yet, just off the top of my head here, let's see if we can divvy up where F9s income derives. We of course have DEN, then there are the Apple flights, then there's MCO, and a small push at COS, include DCA in there, and then all the rest.

I'm just thinking out loud here, and of course this is all just my intuitive guessing, and I certainly welcome any corrections/additions/etc. But would DEN comprise of about 80% of F9's income, if not more? And just for discussion sake, if the 80% or so number would be correct for DEN, then maybe Apple, MCO, COS/DCA, and then everything else be about 5% of the income?

I would be curious as to those numbers if anyone out there would have any idea on them.

Nonetheless, as that DEN percentage remains high, and getting those $$$$$ keeps F9 on focus, I believe that they have a good chance of being able to keep reporting quarterly profits. If the DEN percentage shifts too much and too quickly elsewhere, my guess would be that F9 is going to be heading into financial troubles again.

Again, just my thoughts here, but history seems to confirm that as F9 takes its eye off the ball at DEN, they flounder. F9 is DEN, and DEN is what it is now because of F9. The two are really conjoined twins the way that I see it.

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16319 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 99):
But would DEN comprise of about 80% of F9's income, if not more? And just for discussion sake, if the 80% or so number would be correct for DEN, then maybe Apple, MCO, COS/DCA, and then everything else be about 5% of the income?

Slightly more? I can't find it now (I haven't looked), but I thought that earlier this year DS said that DEN represented about 88% of the business.

Quoting point2point (Reply 99):
Nonetheless, as that DEN percentage remains high, and getting those $$$$$ keeps F9 on focus, I believe that they have a good chance of being able to keep reporting quarterly profits.

The analysts keep putting up their estimates for this quarter (Q3). Before the Q2 profit, the estimate was for 40 cents a share for this quarter. Now the estimate is 51 cents a share.

Quoting point2point (Reply 99):
Again, just my thoughts here, but history seems to confirm that as F9 takes its eye off the ball at DEN, they flounder. F9 is DEN, and DEN is what it is now because of F9. The two are really conjoined twins the way that I see it.

And always will be. DEN is the heart and soul of the airline. But if its a choice between (say) RST-DEN and - say - PWM-MCO or BTV-MCO or PHF-MCO, I know which way I'd jump.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16274 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 100):
but I thought that earlier this year DS said that DEN represented about 88% of the business.

I think that you may be correct, and that it is higher than 80%.

Quoting mariner (Reply 100):
The analysts keep putting up their estimates for this quarter (Q3). Before the Q2 profit, the estimate was for 40 cents a share for this quarter. Now the estimate is 51 cents a share.

And my intuition seems to be guiding me correctly here, although who knows what something in the back of my mind remembers subconsciously that I read a while ago, and just can't place it, eh? And with an estimated 62M pax at DEN by 2020 (and I guess that I have to add here that is assuming all other things remain equal) DEN will have plenty of demand to fill. And with that, may the profits keep rising.

Besides basically being DEN-centric, I think that F9 could start thinking about being a bit more Colorado-centric, as they are now trying with COS. And other than that, there's FNL up the road, which last year has received some SCASD money for study for more air service. I could possibly see F9 with a flight or two from FNL to/from F9 points of MDW, LAX, DFW (whatever the data tells the number crunchers at F9) and with that, maybe they might cannibalize some of their own DEN traffic, but on the other hand, it could probably stop some of the Northern Colorado air pax from driving to DEN and taking UA, AA, or whatever other carrier to those destinations. Along with COS and FNL, maybe EGE? Or MTJ or GJT? All sorts of possibilities here for a slow buildup nearby that isn't DEN-centric. And having those additional points may also solve a problem if weather gets too severe in DEN, although I'm not quite so sure that COS at about 90 miles or FNL at 45 miles from DEN may do any good.

I do think though that now is the time to do what F9 does best, and start building some reserve in their bank accounts.

  

[Edited 2012-08-15 13:31:05]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16277 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 101):
Besides basically being DEN-centric, I think that F9 could start thinking about being a bit more Colorado-centric, as they are now trying with COS.

One of the great sadnesses of the Lynx experiment is that GJT - Grand Junction, CO - didn't work. It was a step towards a "trans-Colorado" airline.

On the other hand, they're starting DRO-LAS and I think that's fine and yes, I think Frontier needs a ski resort in there. But none of these are going to help much in a Colorado weather extreme.

And yes, I think there there are some good places that Frontier doesn't yet serve from DEN and today's announcement (MOT) sure means they have North Dakota covered. Washington and/or Oregon next, perhaps?

But none of this gets away from the central problem - all the eggs in one basket - making Frontier vulnerable. Nor does it solve the other problem - pax (especially FF's) in the outstations can only go to one place, in one direction. Those FF's won't fill a plane, but they may provide a solid basis.

Quoting point2point (Reply 101):
I do think though that now is the time to do what F9 does best, and start building some reserve in their bank accounts.

As I've said, the Prime Directive, the imperative, has to be that the airline be profitable on an annual basis - something which hasn't been achieved since about 2003 - and the major villain there has always been Q1.

So what is presently happening, focus cities in warm winter places - MCO and perhaps CUN and PUJ - is a step in the right direction.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16238 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 101):
Besides basically being DEN-centric, I think that F9 could start thinking about being a bit more Colorado-centric, as they are now trying with COS. And other than that, there's FNL up the road, which last year has received some SCASD money for study for more air service. I could possibly see F9 with a flight or two from FNL to/from F9 points of MDW, LAX, DFW (whatever the data tells the number crunchers at F9) and with that, maybe they might cannibalize some of their own DEN traffic, but on the other hand, it could probably stop some of the Northern Colorado air pax from driving to DEN and taking UA, AA, or whatever other carrier to those destinations. Along with COS and FNL, maybe EGE? Or MTJ or GJT? All sorts of possibilities here for a slow buildup nearby that isn't DEN-centric. And having those additional points may also solve a problem if weather gets too severe in DEN, although I'm not quite so sure that COS at about 90 miles or FNL at 45 miles from DEN may do any good.

I like these ideas. But, keep in mind that Colorado Springs metro (and its larger market, most of southern Colorado) is much larger than Fort Collins, more than twice as large on MSA population alone. So there might be "boutique" service out of FNL, that would be fine, but COS (including its bleed to DEN) has more potential still. I'm not quite sure why regular service never stuck for Ft. Collins over the last 40-50 years. Frontier 1.0 never served it, various commuter services came and went without longevity. Denver (center, not airport) is about 5 miles closer to Fort Collins than Colorado Springs, so don't know what that would be a major issue (mainline airport with rapid growth vs an GA airport that was never mainline).

About weather, COS, while being about 1000 ft higher, is often much less severe (t-storms, winter storms) than DEN, and usually receives diversions when DEN is down. It's quite geographically distinct in terms of weather.

-Rampart


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16212 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 103):
About weather, COS, while being about 1000 ft higher, is often much less severe (t-storms, winter storms) than DEN, and usually receives diversions when DEN is down. It's quite geographically distinct in terms of weather.

On that point though, there is a spot about half way between DEN and COS that receives very very bad weather in the winter. It has been known to get feet of snow while DEN or COS get nothing. It climbs up from Denver and drops back down into the Springs. Not that that would mess with the air traffic, but it sure does with the I-25 traffic.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16133 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 102):
But none of this gets away from the central problem - all the eggs in one basket - making Frontier vulnerable.

I do understand that yes, this could be a problem. However, at this point, I do think that in the near and intermediate future, this concern really shouldn't be that high a priority now. When there is a good amount of cash in the bank, I think that that is the time for this to be a concern.

Quoting mariner (Reply 102):
the other problem - pax (especially FF's) in the outstations can only go to one place, in one direction. Those FF's won't fill a plane, but they may provide a solid basis.

Continuing to think out loud here, I would wonder what percentage of FFs are in the Denver (or even Front Range of Colorado) area, as opposed to those who are not. I would think that if it's above 80% as well, then is there really that much of a problem at present? Yes, this may discourage some outside of the DEN area from becoming regulars on F9, and this could be addressed moving forward.

Just to note though, if the majority of F9s O&D pax live in the DEN area, then I think ideally this is the best situation at present for F9.

I want to say that a few weeks ago, my brother, his wife, and his son, did a SEA-DEN visit for a few days. They flew F9. Even though my brother, etc, are AS FFs, he told me that they chose F9 because the fare was lower by a few dollars. I thought this good news, since F9 was NOT way way lower in fare (like maybe they once were) than AS, UA, and WN, the other carriers that fly here. Also, I know a huge family, lots of brothers, sister, elders, cousins, etc, part of whom live in Chicago, and part who live in Denver. There is continual travel back and forth with them throughout the year. And they all also fly F9 (most live on the South Side, so I guess that helps as well) for the most part. So it seems that F9 can compete not only in DEN, but in Seattle and Chicago as well.

Back to the FFs, I would suppose with the necessary mileage, any pax could go anywhere in the system, as long as they most likely do a connect in DEN. And with a free (per se) ticket, I don't think that too many would mind. If someone in TPA wants to go to LGA, well, they can, just with a connect. And I think that FFs probably expect a connect with most carriers anyway, eh?

Quoting rampart (Reply 103):
I like these ideas. But, keep in mind that Colorado Springs metro (and its larger market, most of southern Colorado) is much larger than Fort Collins, more than twice as large on MSA population alone. So there might be "boutique" service out of FNL, that would be fine, but COS (including its bleed to DEN) has more potential still. I'm not quite sure why regular service never stuck for Ft. Collins over the last 40-50 years.

Yes, Colorado Springs and the southern portion of the Front Range of Colorado have more population (let's say roughly 800K) than up north in the Fort Collins area. However, Larimer County (Fort Collins) plus Weld County (Greeley) have about 550K population. And as the DEN area has the highest median income, I do believe that Fort Collins is slightly higher than Colorado Springs, which is slightly higher than Greeley, and all are just below Denver. A lot of new businesses growing up in the northern part of the state, and a growing population as well.

G4 for the last few years has been serving FNL with flights to LAS and AZA, each a couple of times a week for their only scheduled commercial service. I do think that if F9 wants to be a major player in the Northern Colorado Front Range area, they need to think about trying some service out of FNL, if anything to defend its Denver territory. Maybe commercial service here in the past was unable to work out, but with over a half million people here now, and quite a number of national businesses setting up shop in the area, there maybe now is better potential for some sustained scheduled commercial air service.



 



[Edited 2012-08-15 17:09:55]

User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1294 posts, RR: 12
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16083 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 97):
I gather there will be another route announced this week - no clues where (except that it may be in the east) or to where - DEN or MCO.

I also have not heard anything.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 16065 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 105):
I do understand that yes, this could be a problem.

It is a continuing problem, and was always the greatest vulnerability for Frontier. It is why Southwest was able to create such havoc.

It could happen again - now - if a well-heeled airline, Spirit, say, decided to make a push on DEN. It might not be as destructive as Southwest was, but it would hurt.

Frontier is clearly aware of this and is - gently, organically - spreading the load a wee bit. So I'm not sure what your resistance is to Frontier continuing to do what it is doing.

Quoting point2point (Reply 105):
Continuing to think out loud here, I would wonder what percentage of FFs are in the Denver (or even Front Range of Colorado) area, as opposed to those who are not.

I assume the FF base at DEN is very high, because that is where the airline is centred. Hopefully, the FF base will expand in other places, as other places become more accessible. FF's at BMI - for example - have a choice of two (non-stop) directions and don't have to go to DEN to get to the second destination - but can.

I would regard this as attractive. In my own case, I would be bored to the crapper if every time I went to Australia I had to go through SYD - however attractive SYD is (and SYD is astonishingly attractive). I would look for another airline.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 523 posts, RR: 4
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 16039 times:

MDT has exciting news tomorrow per there facebook page. I'm hoping DEN goes year-round .

User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15850 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 104):
On that point though, there is a spot about half way between DEN and COS that receives very very bad weather in the winter. It has been known to get feet of snow while DEN or COS get nothing. It climbs up from Denver and drops back down into the Springs. Not that that would mess with the air traffic, but it sure does with the I-25 traffic.

Very true. And a good thing that the new regional airport was built where it is now, and not in Douglas County east-southeast of Castle Rock where one proposed site was. I had a friend who was investing in commercial real estate there with those hopes! Weather would have been crummy.

Quoting point2point (Reply 105):
I do believe that Fort Collins is slightly higher than Colorado Springs, which is slightly higher than Greeley, and all are just below Denver. A lot of new businesses growing up in the northern part of the state, and a growing population as well.

That's true. The growth toward military bases and dominance of that economy, with the decline in tech industry has somewhat diminished median income, while the increase in tech industry up north has helped their situation.

I remember when Pueblo warranted both TWA and America West mainline service! Times change.

-Rampart


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15838 times:

Frontier has the Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport on their route map.

http://www.flyshd.com/

Checking the GDS it appears three times weekly from SHD to MCO (Tue, Thu & Sat) on an Airbus. Service starts on November 20.

FLIGHT DATE SEGMENT DPTR ARVL MLS EQP ELPD MILES SM
1 F9 806 20NOV MCO SHD 730A 925A 319 1.55 684 N
2 F9 807 20NOV SHD MCO 1005A 1210P 319 2.05 684 N


User currently offlinegsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15824 times:

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 41):
Ok so quick recap of the week. I want to sound positive but I don't know how I feel about some of these routes.

AZA - so now serving two airports in a heavy leisure market with WN, US, UA, and G4 serving either the area or close to the area.

GSO-MCO - already has G4....

Yes, GSO has G4 on this route to Sanford, twice weekly in near 100% load. Allegiant bumps flights occasionally that still go out booked. Delta used to run 3 RJs a day to Orlando at premium rates and would run at good capacity.

Frontier is going 3x a week, different days than Allegiant. It should work.


User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15808 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 110):
Frontier has the Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport on their route map.

http://www.flyshd.com/

Checking the GDS it appears three times weekly from SHD to MCO (Tue, Thu & Sat) on an Airbus. Service starts on November 20.

Wow. Didn't see that coming.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 24
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15772 times:

Official release on SHD-MCO and COU-MCO.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...onstop-destinations-140000925.html

Definitely interesting choices....seems like F9 wants to be the new G4. It might work, though I don't know if F9 can produce the type of ancillary revenues that G4 gets.

SHD is a small market, but if you can steal some from CHO, it might work. This might also steal some of the traffic that drives down I-81 to ROA for G4 service to SFB.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15708 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 110):
Frontier has the Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport on their route map.
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 110):
it appears three times weekly from SHD to MCO (Tue, Thu & Sat) on an Airbus.

Wow! For those who may need a reference or airport information. http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KSHD

I guess they would draw from the I-81 and I-64 catchment area including Virginia Tech and and the University of Virgina in Charlottesville; many who connect through IAD. As I recall SHD is close to ROA. The Staunton, Virginia is also home to the country quartet Statler Brothers. SHD should be good where college and Spring break meet and another mode of travel in lieu of Mega Bus which offers service to Union Station in Washington D.C. to the north and to TYS and CHA to the south.

G4 does or did serve a little town in Western Maryland I want to say Hagarstown or Brunswick to SFB; that's a 100+ miles up and off I-81 or Highway 15 and if memory serves me they also offered service between TRI-SFB to the South.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 24
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15711 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 114):
G4 does or did serve a little town in Western Maryland I want to say Hagarstown or Brunswick to SFB; that's a 100+ miles up and off I-81 or Highway 15 and if memory serves me they also offered service between TRI-SFB to the South.

G4 flies out of ROA. Based on this (and a few other route announcements), it looks like G4 and F9 will be bumping heads with each other a bit.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15668 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 115):
it looks like G4 and F9 will be bumping heads with each other a bit.

Some of the markets recently targeted by Frontier are markets Allegiant has on their list of potentials to serve when the A319's come on board.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15655 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
SHD is a small market

According to the FAA enplanement data for calendar year 2011 http://www.faa.gov/airports/planning...elim_cy11_primary_enplanements.pdf These are official stats in lieu of what the airports report; some airports argue the FAA data is skewed.

SHD ranked 380 out of 405 airports the FAA tracks with 12,033 passenger boardings in CY11 up from 10,408 boardings in CY10; a 15.61% increase.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
but if you can steal some from CHO, it might work. This might also steal some of the traffic that drives down I-81 to ROA

The year-over-year 15% increase at SHD would suggest this may be occurring.

[Edited 2012-08-16 08:26:02]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinegsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15510 times:

ROA is a niche market for G4, customers will drive to GSO before SHD. SHD may pull from Charlottesville a bit, but I guarantee they are going after JMU and area college leisure traffic. This shouldn't affect ROA much at all, I would think,

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15426 times:
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Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
Official release on SHD-MCO and COU-MCO.

You couldn't have knocked me down with a feather about these two - because I had already fallen over in shock.

I would not have guessed either of them, and, for a moment, I was confused - I thought it was Columbia SC (CAE) rather tha Columbia MO (COU) and I had to adjust. Having said that, CAE is worth a look - the airport was ready to throw $10 million at Southwest and was p*ssed when that didn't happen.

What these two routes do is mark - more clearly than any other route announcements - that the refashioning of Frontier gathers pace and that a number of the old concepts are out the window. Rather than fight the expensive battles of some big cities, Frontier is simply removing itself from the fray. But I hope that they don't forget some of the bigger cities (BTV, PWN, etc).

Now, having looked at them, I am moderately optimistic about both. I suppose I am a bitty surprised that Frontier didn't go for CHO rather than SHD, but SHD is enormously grateful:

http://www.nbc29.com/story/19295280/...alley-regional-airport-adds-flight

"Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport manager and commission chair held back tears as they announced the new Orlando service. Hear why it's such a big deal tonight on NBC29 HD News at 5 and 6."

It is a big deal for the area, so let's hope the area responds. It has also provoked a bit of a crisis at COU - about the terminal:

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/...ke-announcement-regarding-airport/

"The city recently added a double-wide trailer to the terminal to increase available space.

"You know, this is a crisis," McDavid said. "We don't want to be the one, single city in the Southeastern Conference that has a black-and-gold double-wide that welcomes you to Columbia."


COU will some terminal expansion because is also Denver Dreaming:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...ghts-between-columbia-and-orlando/

"McDavid said he hopes Columbia's relationship with Frontier will evolve. He brought up the possibility of adding flights to Denver International Airport, which is Frontier's primary hub and a popular travel destination for mid-Missourians."

Some of the Frontier rules are different now and it's fair to say that MCO is a focus city - sort-of. I'll believe it is a real focus city when a few things happen, such as a bigger dot on the map, two permanent gates, about three more destinations, and a flight from MCO to which pax can connect - that it isn't all O&D.

In the meantime, though, there is one golden rule that hasn't changed - use 'em or lose 'em.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-08-16 13:43:33]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15302 times:

Let us hope COU addresses their multi-million terminal new construction in a normal manner and not in haste solely due to today's announcement.

The article reads like Columbia all but wanted to give F9 a key to the city. Airlines do start and stop service all of the time As it relates to larger jet service If F9 does pull the service COU has a Cadillac with nobody to drive it.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15283 times:

Service between MCO and all of the these new smaller airports also allows a vehicle to market F9 brand awareness. The additional frequency of critters in and out of MCO will most likely catch the tourism eye.


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15262 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 120):
The article reads like Columbia all but wanted to give F9 a key to the city. Airlines do start and stop service all of the time As it relates to larger jet service If F9 does pull the service COU has a Cadillac with nobody to drive it.

Worst case - if that happens, I don't see it as Frontier's problem.

Best case - I think it is not impossible that Frontier will start a limited DEN-COU service.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15222 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 113):
It might work, though I don't know if F9 can produce the type of ancillary revenues that G4 gets.

Still, F9 has a working relationship at this time with Apple Vacations. Is there enough there in this relationship so that there is enough $$$$ so that both can get something extra in their pockets as well?

COU has nothing going west. And I guess either MCI or DEN would work, but since the drive, and not as many options available with MCI, DEN would seem the best choice.

As F9 is evolving into being a truly ULCC carrier, as probably evidenced with these two new routes announcement, the role of the E190 in the fleet is now a fleeting (pun intended) question.....

All the best to SHD and COU and MCO and F9. And may they all find what they're looking for, eh?


 


User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15225 times:

I do have a question.... and I ask this in all neutrality... I am not asking this as a pro- or anti- Frontier person.

Does anyone know, what kind of advertising has Frontier done in these new, smaller markers, to promote their service?

I live in a major metro area pretty much dominated by two airlines (two different airports here) and I see little, to no, advertising for ANY airline here.

What is Frontier doing to promote the fact that they now serve so many of these smaller communities?

Other than newspapers temporarily announcing a new airline coming to town, is there any sort of advertising going on?

Many of these small cities have populations that are already used to driving hours to a closer city for a low fare, or are already loyal to a legacy (or their affiliate carrier) due to frequent flyer programs or, in the case of places like Shenandoah Valley where they seem to be targeting leisure travelers who may not fly at all unless they know the fare is right.... what is/has Frontier done to increase knowledge of their presence in those cities?

I mean this new approach they are taking.... it is a bold new step for them... but are they making sure people know about it? I see posts saying that booking are strong in other new cities, but how is Frontier making their presence known?

Again, in case you missed it the first time.... this is a legitimate question and not posed as either pro- or anti- Frontier!

Thanks!


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15213 times:

Quoting skycub (Reply 124):

From my experience working for F9, it is known that F9 does little to no advertising. This was brought up before to the higher ups on Tower Road back in 2010 and the response was that F9 does advertise. But we don't see it. I guess it is selective advertising. During the Super Bowl this past year, F9 advertised like crazy on TV, on the RTD buses in Denver, a couple billboards were up and also in the newspapers. Shortly after the Super Bowl was over, that stopped.

I have not seen a F9 advertisement on an RTD bus since March 2012. The same with WN.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15178 times:

Quoting skycub (Reply 124):
Does anyone know, what kind of advertising has Frontier done in these new, smaller markers, to promote their service?

I understand F9 use Interstate billboard signage. Supposedly there was an electronic billboard near TYS either on the I-40 or I-75 corridor. When I drove through Knoxville last December I did not see it in either direction.

I think with F9 limited marketing/advertising dollars their best bang for the buck would be to use use electronic rotating billboard signage which shares the expense with multiple advertisers in cities where three Interstates intersect. There are many crossroads where two Interstates intersect. Sports stadiums outside of DEN also might be an idea. I suspect the Colorado Rockies for one have a nemesis the home team loves to hate. Post electronic signage behind home plate at the opposing park.

I also think they should place a printed pamphlet at Interstate visitor welcome centers announcing all cities they serve in that state. These facilities serve thousands of road travelers daily who most likely will fly at some point. its bound to catch a few eyes and at minimal should pay for itself. Pennsylvania would be a good start.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1027 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

In many of these kinds of cases, the local airport is placing the advertising on behalf of an airline like F9 in the local market. It is often provided as part of the incentive package to the airline to attract them in the first place.

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15191 times:

The question i have is?

Can Frontier successfully copy with this WWAD: What Whould Allegiant Do........ style of flying and make it profitbale without the vacation packages being the primary focus? On some routes the packages are where Allegiant makes their money the flight is just a way to get them to buy it all. Its impossible to buy a ticket with alleigant and not see what they have to offer and have them try to sell you stuff as well. We know this is where they have been so successful.

Can twice a week to TTN for an example be successful and profitable off of majority tickets? There is a cost to keep a station and admin expenses and hassle. Allegiant would not be profitable on such a route without the packages


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 15069 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 128):
Can Frontier successfully copy with this WWAD: What Whould Allegiant Do........ style of flying and make it profitbale without the vacation packages being the primary focus?

I'm not sure that Allegiant is the comparative model here. I don't think that MOT or BIS or FAR can be called "Allegiant" style just because they are less than daily.

But if Allegiant is the model, it surely worked at BMI which was profitable in it's first month of service without daily flights to either destination.

DEN-PHF began as less than daily and ABE obviously did well with 2 x weekly flights because it's going to 4 x weekly. I guess you can say there was track record, but it was virgin territory for Frontier.

I'm no't entirely sure that Frontier expects too much in the way of profits form these two new routes in the short term, although I would expect Christmas and Spring Break to do well - maybe more than that. And to some extent, Frontier is cushioned from the overheads of the small new stations.

I assume Frontier is testing the potential of the new, small markets, and there's only one way to do that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 15038 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 125):

From my experience working for F9, it is known that F9 does little to no advertising. This was brought up before to the higher ups on Tower Road back in 2010 and the response was that F9 does advertise. But we don't see it. I guess it is selective advertising.

So, how are the fine folks of Minot, Fargo, Columbia and Shenandoah Valley (and the out-lying regions Frontier is supposedly targeting) supposed to know they have a new airline in town?

I mean, if you don't advertise, how does anyone know you are in town a few times a week?


User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14927 times:

Quoting skycub (Reply 130):
So, how are the fine folks of Minot, Fargo, Columbia and Shenandoah Valley (and the out-lying regions Frontier is supposedly targeting) supposed to know they have a new airline in town?

I mean, if you don't advertise, how does anyone know you are in town a few times a week?

See:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 127):
In many of these kinds of cases, the local airport is placing the advertising on behalf of an airline like F9 in the local market. It is often provided as part of the incentive package to the airline to attract them in the first place.

The airports arguably have more at stake than Frontier does on these routes, so they are more than happy to publicize the new service.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14885 times:

The airports will probably take care of local advertising with billboards.

Advertising in newspapers is actually pretty cheap, especially in markets those size. The airlines themselves could have their media department place those ads, or again, the airport will place those ads as they most likely already have a budget in place.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14859 times:

As unfamiliarity goes in the East. With all these new city announcements F9 could easily be termed the MCO shuttle.

It looks like F9 shares gates 60-99 in Terminal B at MCO with five other carriers; three of those being foreign flyers. http://www.orlandoairports.net/ops/images/maps/wayfinding_maps.pdf On the domestic side DL is the largest user of the 60-99 tier of gates followed by F9 and then Sun Country

Here's a one-stop shop URL for many U.S. airports including terminal maps and the amenities the airports offer the flying public.http://www.flightstats.com/go/AirportTerminalMaps/airportTerminalGuide.do



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 134, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14861 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 107):
So I'm not sure what your resistance is to Frontier continuing to do what it is doing.

I had to think about this for a bit. It's not that I'm really resistant to what F9 is doing at present, which is, I think that we can agree here, is that they are focusing on DEN, finding (as you would call it) a winter apartment at MCO, building up COS a bit, and then doing the Apple Vacations stuff. I think that this is correct here. And this I really don't have any objections to. And certainly, if a route or two here turns out not to produce as intended, I would think that F9 could easily pull a plug and find little damage.

What I do have resistance to is that there seems to be a train of thought that F9 needs to be finding another elsewhere (other than DEN) of operations in order to survive. At present, I'll give in here for argument's sake and agree, although extremely hesitantly. And if so, I don't think that this even needs to be a concern for the next 10 years or so, at least, and that is assuming that all things more or less remain equal.

And with the above, a couple of conditions would have to be present before I would think that there would be any green light for this presumed need of somewhere else. First off is F9's cash situation. Right now, F9 needs to build that. It needs to show consistent profits, and build it's reserve, and at least start to be in a position of AS, NK, etc, where some erroneous newspaper article will not have their credit card company go koo-koo and pull the strings on them. We all sort of remember that with F9, eh? Next, is where would they go to? It's pretty much a given now that for the most part, any city/area/airport has pretty much all of the service it needs, and then some.

Having a winter apartment at MCO doesn't really seem to be costing all that much for F9. COS is probably happening because of good data that F9 has. Apple flying guarantees a profit, albeit a small one, but it's still money that can build on a reserve.

In summary, I really have no objection to what F9 is now doing. What my objection would be is for F9 to to hastily go into another airport too soon, and build up too much operations too quickly (which we know costs $$$$ and is really gambling, and hasn't ever worked out for F9) for the sake of thinking that they need to have something other than DEN.

I think that this all makes pretty much sense to everyone. F9 has a niche, and its niche is DEN. I also think that there are many more positives there than negatives, and this is where their most control is for their destiny.

edit added..... just noticed in another thread here that AB is going to be selling some of its NB aircraft in order to pay down some of their debt. AB has some A319s and A320s. I would wonder if anyone at Republic/F9 is making any phone calls?



 





[Edited 2012-08-17 07:58:42]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14817 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 97):
I wouldn't fall over in shock if ABE-DEN happened, but I think Frontier is spoiled for choice in that area.

I just don't understand the point from F9's perspective esp. if it just takes away from other routes. Since F9 barely gets by on just 1x out of other nearby airports, It makes more sense for that Lehigh area to support the MDT-DEN or PHL-DEN or LGA-DEN. It's still not a bad idea to have ABE-MCO and build up FF base in Lehigh Valley. I'd suggest ABE-FLL as well.

Those pax can support ABE-MCO build up FF miles on F9, and then for westbound service use F9 out of PHL, MDT, or LGA depending on which is most convenient.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24905 posts, RR: 46
Reply 136, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14789 times:

I think many people are forgetting or atleast losing sight of that Frontier is in the process of and overhaul with stated intention of becoming more a ULCC.

This entails more out of the box point to point routes, and as many predicted less dependence on a Denver hub structure (which by its nature is costly to operate).
CEO David Siegel I recall from an early interview saying they would look to folks like Allegiant and Spirit more than United or Southwest for inspiration.

Anyhow if Frontier follows Spirit's route planning model which already has 400 identified potential city-pairs, there should be plenty of opportunity for Frontier to chase after.

With a low cost base, and many secondary routes, F9 might find a new niche in the sector.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 137, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14728 times:

I believe I figured the aircraft routing for each day. It doesn't really take a lot of aircraft to do this.

F9 477Y 10DEC M MCOBMI SS1 755A 919A /E
F9 476Y 10DEC M BMIMCO SS1 1000A 115P /E
F9 486Y 10DEC M MCOMKE SS1 155P 350P /E
F9 489Y 10DEC M MKEMCO SS1 430P 810P /E
F9 754Y 10DEC M MCOGSO SS1 830A 1005A /E
F9 755Y 10DEC M GSOMCO SS1 1045A 1215P /E
F9 316Y 10DEC M MCOTTN SS1 1255P 320P /E
F9 317Y 10DEC M TTNMCO SS1 400P 635P /E
F9 670Y 10DEC M DENMCO SS1 700A 1223P /E
F9 671Y 10DEC M MCODEN SS1 103P 311P /E

F9 806Y 11DEC T MCOSHD SS1 730A 925A /E
F9 807Y 11DEC T SHDMCO SS1 1005A 1210P /E
F9 471Y 11DEC T MCOCOS SS1 1255P 255P /E
F9 478Y 11DEC T MCOMDT SS1 825A 1042A /E
F9 479Y 11DEC T MDTMCO SS1 1125A 138P /E
F9 468Y 11DEC T MCOABE SS1 225P 452P /E
F9 469Y 11DEC T ABEMCO SS1 535P 755P /E
F9 670Y 11DEC T DENMCO SS1 700A 1223P /E
F9 671Y 11DEC T MCODEN SS1 103P 311P /E
F9 470Y 11DEC T COSMCO SS1 750A 110P /E
F9 683Y 11DEC T MCOCOU SS1 150P 335P /E
F9 684Y 11DEC T COUMCO SS1 415P 735P /E

F9 677Y 12DEC W MCODEN SS1 925A 1133A /E
F9 754Y 12DEC W MCOGSO SS1 800A 935A /E
F9 755Y 12DEC W GSOMCO SS1 1015A 1145A /E
F9 477Y 12DEC W MCOBMI SS1 840A 1004A /E
F9 476Y 12DEC W BMIMCO SS1 1045A 200P /E
F9 468Y 12DEC W MCOABE SS1 240P 507P /E
F9 469Y 12DEC W ABEMCO SS1 550P 810P /E
F9 670Y 12DEC W DENMCO SS1 700A 1223P /E
F9 671Y 12DEC W MCODEN SS1 103P 311P /E
F9 485Y 12DEC W MCOMDT SS1 1225P 242P /E
F9 482Y 12DEC W MDTMCO SS1 322P 535P /E
F9 605Y 12DEC W MCOTYS SS1 615P 757P /E
F9 604Y 12DEC W TYSMCO SS1 840P 1011P /E

F9 806Y 13DEC Q MCOSHD SS1 730A 925A /E
F9 807Y 13DEC Q SHDMCO SS1 1005A 1210P /E
F9 471Y 13DEC Q MCOCOS SS1 1255P 255P /E
F9 478Y 13DEC Q MCOMDT SS1 825A 1042A /E
F9 479Y 13DEC Q MDTMCO SS1 1125A 138P /E
F9 719Y 13DEC Q MCOOMA SS1 225P 443P /E
F9 718Y 13DEC Q OMAMCO SS1 525P 917P /E
F9 670Y 13DEC Q DENMCO SS1 700A 1223P /E
F9 470Y 13DEC Q COSMCO SS1 750A 110P /E
F9 486Y 13DEC Q MCOMKE SS1 155P 350P /E
F9 489Y 13DEC Q MKEMCO SS1 430P 810P /E
F9 672Y 13DEC Q DENMCO SS1 440P 1003P /E
F9 671Y 13DEC Q MCODEN SS1 103P 311P /E

F9 316Y 14DEC F MCOTTN SS1 725A 950A /E
F9 317Y 14DEC F TTNMCO SS1 1030A 105P /E
F9 475Y 14DEC F MCOBMI SS1 145P 309P /E
F9 474Y 14DEC F BMIMCO SS1 350P 705P /E
F9 478Y 14DEC F MCOMDT SS1 825A 1042A /E
F9 479Y 14DEC F MDTMCO SS1 1125A 138P /E
F9 468Y 14DEC F MCOABE SS1 225P 452P /E
F9 469Y 14DEC F ABEMCO SS1 535P 755P /E
F9 670Y 14DEC F DENMCO SS1 700A 1223P /E
F9 671Y 14DEC F MCODEN SS1 103P 311P /E
F9 677Y 14DEC F MCODEN SS1 925A 1133A /E
F9 672Y 14DEC F DENMCO SS1 440P 1003P /E

F9 677Y 15DEC J MCODEN SS1 925A 1133A /E
F9 681Y 15DEC J MCOCOU SS1 800A 945A /E
F9 680Y 15DEC J COUMCO SS1 1025A 145P /E
F9 483Y 15DEC J MCOMSN SS1 225P 425P /E
F9 484Y 15DEC J MSNMCO SS1 505P 847P /E
F9 754Y 15DEC J MCOGSO SS1 830A 1005A /E
F9 755Y 15DEC J GSOMCO SS1 1045A 1215P /E
F9 471Y 15DEC J MCOCOS SS1 1255P 255P /E
F9 470Y 15DEC J COSMCO SS1 750A 110P /E
F9 719Y 15DEC J MCOOMA SS1 155P 413P /E
F9 718Y 15DEC J OMAMCO SS1 455P 847P /E
F9 674Y 15DEC J DENMCO SS1 1040A 407P /E
F9 679Y 15DEC J MCODEN SS1 453P 655P /E
F9 672Y 15DEC J DENMCO SS1 440P 1003P /E

F9 677Y 16DEC S MCODEN SS1 925A 1133A /E
F9 806Y 16DEC S MCOSHD SS1 700A 855A /E
F9 807Y 16DEC S SHDMCO SS1 935A 1140A /E
F9 466Y 16DEC S MCOABE SS1 1220P 247P /E
F9 467Y 16DEC S ABEMCO SS1 330P 550P /E
F9 605Y 16DEC S MCOTYS SS1 630P 812P /E
F9 604Y 16DEC S TYSMCO SS1 855P 1026P /E
F9 478Y 16DEC S MCOMDT SS1 800A 1017A /E
F9 479Y 16DEC S MDTMCO SS1 1100A 113P /E
F9 486Y 16DEC S MCOMKE SS1 155P 350P /E
F9 489Y 16DEC S MKEMCO SS1 430P 810P /E
F9 674Y 16DEC S DENMCO SS1 1040A 407P /E
F9 679Y 16DEC S MCODEN SS1 453P 655P /E
F9 672Y 16DEC S DENMCO SS1 440P 1003P /E


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14698 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 134):
Having a winter apartment at MCO doesn't really seem to be costing all that much for F9

I suppose with 39 potential gates at terminal "B" in MCO in a worst case scenario if DEN went off-line for 5-7 days F9 would have an emergency doctrine in place which would allow some of their DEN ops be shifted to MCO

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 137):

Excellent data! If I'm understanding correctly each block constitutes one airframe for one day. Five to seven round trips is excellent aircraft utilization. It appears the east to west flying uses the time zones successfully.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 139, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14634 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 134):
What I do have resistance to is that there seems to be a train of thought that F9 needs to be finding another elsewhere (other than DEN) of operations in order to survive. At present, I'll give in here for argument's sake and agree, although extremely hesitantly.

Okay, since some of Frontier's recent moves have caused some head-scratching, let me try and give an overview - where I see it.

Since Southwest came to DEN, two pieces of Conventional Wisdom have bedevilled the airline - (i) Frontier cannot win against Southwest and (ii) DEN cannot support three hubbing airlines.

The compounding problem was that in this testosterone driven, overly competitive world, Frontier conceding any territory was perceived as defeat and proof of the CW's.

Jeff Potter tried to match Southwest ("we will not give an inch"), as did United, and that failed - the onslaught was formidable and probably completely unrelated to Southwest's profitability at DEN. Southwest was going have DEN, come hell or high water.

And of course, the MKE Distraction (and MCI) only added fuel to the fire. Frontier was losing bulk money, therefore the CW's were true.

BUT - jump ahead to about the middle of last year when the restructure was announced. There was one slide that had a critical piece of information:

"The Airbus fleet is operating profitability at DEN."

Everything stems from that. Amid the carnage, the Airbus feet, that is the Frontier fleet, was operating profitably at DEN.

To capitalize on that one thing, everything else had to go. And - pretty much - everything else has.

Obviously, I don't know what the boardroom conversations were, but this is the effect of them: MKE? Gone (mostly). MCI? Gone (mostly). LGA (non-DEN)? Gone. Non-Airbus fleet? Gone (or going).

Why LGA, which is seen as a honeypot? Because it is a a hotly competitive market that everyone wants - Delta's muscling in, for example. More than that, it spreads Frontier's resources too thin. Note that Republic did not bother bidding for LGA slots in the auction, only for DCA.

A couple of other (non-DEN) things were salvaged from the wreck - a bit of DCA, some South of the Border and (most of) MCO. So now, Sean Menke's statement kicked in:

"There has to be more to Frontier than DEN, but DEN has to be profitable first."

Okay, so if DEN is profitable - what else is there? A couple of DCA, some South of the Border and (most of) MCO.

Now something else happened. Frontier got a ruthless CEO who was charged with one thing - consistent profitability. And that ruthless CEO has done the unthinkable - the thing that JP said would never happen - he has given an inch against Southwest. More than inch - he's given quite a lot.

Siegel (in cahoots with DS) has (a) taken Frontier back to its roots and (b) done what JP never really wanted to happen - he has said there has to be more to Frontier than DEN.

It is another CW that pax (especially business pax) want frequency. Okay, but two things - (i) Frontier is a leisure airline and (ii) Frontier's glory days of profit were NOT based on frequency. Back in 2003 (the end of the glory days) very few Frontier routes has more than 2 x daily, if that, and those that did were not business pax driven.

Anyone can argue (and I'm sure many will) that the reductions is frequency to several of the mature destinations mean that Frontier is waving the white flag against Southwest - and maybe that's true - but maybe that is always what should have happened.

So what are we left with? Frontier big at DEN - but not chasing frequency. Some South of the Border (protected by Apple) a bit of DCA and Frontier slowly building at MCO - but not chasing frequency and/or avoiding most of the most competitive routes. MKE-MCO stays - but at 3 x weekly.

Now the great question becomes, can these non-competitive routes be profitable? I don't know, and maybe not all of them ail work. But I think they have a much greater chance of succeeding than continually head-butting Southwest and Delta, and I'll throw in another (non-airline) CW:

"Always dance with the plain girl, she's so much more grateful."

Someone asked a question about advertising and how Frontier will become known at the new outstations. Okay, there are all sorts of answers to that (and radio is a big one), but there is something else, and it is shown in this, the press conference at SHD:

SHD" target="_blank">http://www.newsleader.com/article/20...4/Nonstop-flights-Orlando-from-SHD

Fighting back tears and his voice choking with emotion, Gerald Garber made an announcement Thursday morning that was seven years in the making.

Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport is adding a new airline in November that will offer three weekly nonstop flights to Orlando, directly connecting the Valley to Disney, and just as important, connecting Floridians to the Valley.

“This is a long journey,” said Garber, chairman of the Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport Commission, who was both relieved and ecstatic."


That is not an objective response, "fighting back tears" is completely subjective. It means that the folk at SHD will be working their butts off to make sure that the service works and they are already planning marketing campaigns in Florida.

Yes, it would be grand to see Frontier expanding to the sexy destinations, and I sure hope some of that will happen. But as we have seen so often, the plain girls may be much more grateful.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14521 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 139):
Since Southwest came to DEN, two pieces of Conventional Wisdom have bedevilled the airline - (i) Frontier cannot win against Southwest and (ii) DEN cannot support three hubbing airlines.

I have to think about this some, but my friend..... just offhand, lets just say that I'm going to disagree on both here, so for the time being, I can just agree to disagree here.......

But on the second item, well..... projections for DEN are 62M pax by 2020. Certainly doable since it's only about a 1%-2% increase per year each year here. Certainly somebody's going to have to be moving all those pax eh?

And until later..... later.....

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 141, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14513 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 140):
I have to think about this some, but my friend..... just offhand, lets just say that I'm going to disagree on both here, so for the time being, I can just agree to disagree here.......

Hmmm? I disagree with them, too.

But they are the Conventional Wisdoms - repeated endlessly here.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 844 posts, RR: 1
Reply 142, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14475 times:
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The SBN folks were good at marketing Allegiant and Allegiant thinking outside the box has made them successful. I'm sure with the right marketing, advertising and such the Michiana travelers will take to Frontier and they will be successful also.

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14466 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 141):
I disagree with them, too.

Oh..... okay my friend.... much appreciated and saves me some thinking on this, at least for now, eh?

Quoting mariner (Reply 139):
"There has to be more to Frontier than DEN, but DEN has to be profitable first."

Okay again, and well...... I think that this is along my train of thinking as well. Maybe I read this a long time ago, and forgot the who and when, but since it was so logical, it must have stuck in my mind. If I didn't read it somewhere, well, it's just too logical, isn't it?

Quoting mariner (Reply 139):
Now the great question becomes, can these non-competitive routes be profitable?

It is quite logical as well to assume that no one can really predict the future, eh? But..... the key here is..... that it isn't all that much that's shifting. Although there seems to be about a gazillion new routes, it's really only about 42 flights per week, according to an above post here, and this is before COU and SHD, so we have about 7 or so daily F9 flights at MCO now? And if any one of these gazillion routes don't pan out quickly (like bye bye OMA) then bye bye, and no real skin off anyone's ass, eh?

As for frequency to the busier destinations to/from DEN, I think that F9 needs to have whatever frequency to those that work and make a profit. If UA has 10, and WN has 9, and F9 has 4...... so be it, so long as those 4 end up depositing to their bank account.

I think that I will also add here a couple of other CWs now while were at it...... 1) neither UA, or WN, have any intention of ceding at DEN. UA has already seemed to have given up what it can, and lately (last 3 months or so?) has been somewhat aggressive with DEN. And WN, even though it has slowed down considerable with its DEN buildup (in comparison to what it's been doing) they still have been adding a bit here and there. And just to add another bit of what I think will be CW here, is that all carriers at DEN are going to be adding, and we may even see a couple of new airlines that compete with F9 at DEN. I think that everyone certainly had their socks knocked off with NK's invasion here, and I would be surprised now if VX found its way there in the next couple of years or so. So yes, havoc abounds everywhere for F9 at DEN.

But...... and I'll repeat this again..... is that F9 is DEN, and DEN is what it is because of F9. These two are conjoined twins, and F9 doesn't really have to do much there..... really..... just show up and play a good game..... and they will come out ahead there. They can play a better game anywhere else and still lose...... but not at DEN. Some things are just because...... and this is one of them.

 

[Edited 2012-08-17 16:03:51]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25016 posts, RR: 85
Reply 144, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14457 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 143):
I think that I will also add here a couple of other CWs now while were at it...... 1) neither UA, or WN, have any intention of ceding at DEN. UA has already seemed to have given up what it can, and lately (last 3 months or so?) has been somewhat aggressive with DEN.

Nothing in life - or airlines - is constant. Who would have predicted that United would have a stoush with Houston and so perhaps revised their attitude to DEN?

Quoting point2point (Reply 143):
But...... and I'll repeat this again..... is that F9 is DEN, and DEN is what it is because of F9.

The first half of that is surely true, but I don't know who is arguing against it. I'm surely not. Perhaps you are defending something which isn't being attacked?

However, I'll grant that one of the problems of perception that Frontier faces is the previous history of expansion outside DEN, going back to the First LAX focus city. It was a good idea as a concept, but the execution broke most of the cardinal rules.

(i) all the LAX flights overflew the DEN hub, and thus (ii) to some extent cannibalized the DEN hub. (iii) with LAX-MSP, which was the key route, Frontier went up against a known predatory and turf-defending legacy - and repeated the mistake at MEM - and (iv) none of the LAX routes added places to the route map that couldn't be reached through DEN.

Now apply those cardinal rules to MCO. (i) none of the routes overfly the DEN hub (unless you count COS), and so (ii) none of them cannibalize DEN (unless you count COS). (iii) none of the new MCO routes go up against a ruthless, turf defending legacy, and (iv) several of the new routes add places to the route map that can't be reached through DEN.

It isn't a case of what the airline does, perhaps, it may be how the airline does it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 145, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14444 times:

I got curious and decided to look for a definition of a Ultra Low Cost Carrier ULCC. Neither the acronym or the term populates in the search feature on the FAA.gov URL. LCC is mentioned numerous times. I can only assume the FAA doesn't recognize the term or hasn't found the suitable definition for it as of yet. The term may very well be carrier driven.

A Google and Avira search of ULCC populates NK and Ryan Air. there is also limited mention of G4 I did find this courtesy of crankyflyer http://crankyflier.com/2012/01/30/fr...urse-as-an-ultra-low-cost-carrier/ which discusses F9 desire to become a ULCC. I apologize if this has been posted previously. If it was I missed it.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 844 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14274 times:
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I just checked on Expedia's web site to see how Frontier's first flight out of SBN to DEN (10/12/2012) is booked and their are only 27 seats left on a 138 seat Airbus A319. That is better than United ever did on their SBN-DEN flights in the 70's. United never carried more than about 70 passengers to DEN on their FWA-SBN-DEN service which was in the afternoon.

I'm sure the rest of the seats will fill up by flight time. Wishing the very best for Frontier and this new service.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14174 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 146):
I just checked on Expedia's web site to see how Frontier's first flight out of SBN to DEN (10/12/2012) is booked and their are only 27 seats left on a 138 seat Airbus A319

I suspect the first month or two are probably loaded with fliers who purchased the low ball introductory fares.