FlexJetOKC From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 60 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32961 times:
I am not sure what kind of plane this is, however, it looks like the altimeter was showing 6,300 feet. I do not know what the OAT was at the time of the crash but you can tell the plane was really struggling to get airborne. I don't want to speculate but the plane may of been overweight. Check it out! Glad everyone survived with minimal injuries. It definitely could of been a lot worse!
C172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1017 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 32464 times:
From the description of the video:
"Due to warming temperatures we had a hard time gaining altitude. After taking off we
hit an air pocket that made us rapidly loose altitude, pushing us down
into the trees."
Uh huh, not to armchair pilot but it sure looks like a high density altitude causing the airplane to barely be able to get out of ground effect before drifting down again (and not an air pocket). The real bad part is how much OPEN space that pilot had to put the plane back on the ground safely before ending up in those trees.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2580 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 32080 times:
Eerily similar to a video that was discovered of a crash in Colorado (unfortunately fatal) filmed by the occupants. The crash occured a few years ago bu the reckage had only recently been found. Don't have the link but I think it's on the same site. The occupants themselves were not on the video.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
But yeah, the pilot can expect some action on his certificate. At the latest, he should have aborted when he didn't get out of ground effect the first time. He's lucky he only broke his jaw and lost a couple of teeth.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7584 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 31960 times:
Yea certainly some poor flyIng there. That takeoff roll was very long and even after the extremely long takeoff roll the plane was clearly struggling to gain speed and altitude and there was still clear grass to just put the plane down at before the trees.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3988 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 31424 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 11): I think everyone was watching, recording, and knew exactly what was happening. Why yell? What good does yelling do? It was obvious what was happening.
Sort of agree to a point - I was in a situation once where I and everyone else on board was convinced the plane I was in was going to crash, and even though I thankfully turned out to be wrong, I'm sure the feeling at that time was no different than what these guys were thinking before their actual crash. I didn't yell either. You often hear talk of planes becoming eerily quiet when things get dangerous and that was my experience too. I personally just did not know what to say or do, and I felt this tremendous feeling of frustration over that. But I knew yelling wouldn't accomplish anything, and it probably sounds ridiculous but the fact that nobody else was yelling either made me feel like it would have been really out of place to do so myself. For me, at least, there was the thought that I might sound crazy. I mean I was convinced I was at my time of death, and I was still worried about sounding like a crazy person. I think these things that have been ingrained in us since birth don't go away even in a situation like that.
I do think there's something a little odd in the way they film this, though. If it wasn't so obviously real, I'd almost think it was staged. They film without even moving the camera right to the point of impact - I doubt I'd have even been able to hold my hand steady. They don't say *anything*, ever. Even after the crash, they just turn the cameras back on and walk around soundless. I realize we don't know what happened in the intervening 4 minutes - they could have been freaking out on the phone to a 911 operator - but it just looks weird in the video. I mean they have the wherewithal and physical ability to use their cameras, so they can't just be completely in shock. I guess that's the weird part for me - not how people that I can see are acting, but knowing that somebody's behind the camera and realizing that they seem to be filming as if this is just all in a day's work.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
steex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2064 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 31300 times:
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 14): I do think there's something a little odd in the way they film this, though. If it wasn't so obviously real, I'd almost think it was staged. They film without even moving the camera right to the point of impact - I doubt I'd have even been able to hold my hand steady. They don't say *anything*, ever. Even after the crash, they just turn the cameras back on and walk around soundless. I realize we don't know what happened in the intervening 4 minutes - they could have been freaking out on the phone to a 911 operator - but it just looks weird in the video. I mean they have the wherewithal and physical ability to use their cameras, so they can't just be completely in shock. I guess that's the weird part for me - not how people that I can see are acting, but knowing that somebody's behind the camera and realizing that they seem to be filming as if this is just all in a day's work.
This was one of my initial reactions as well, but for many people these days, it seems life is lived in its entirety using some kind of recording device as a filter. How many times do you see people walking around zoos, museums, parks, or even whole vacations capturing everything on their cell phone or iPad without really spending any time to stop and look at it with their own two eyes while they are there? If I were a betting man, I'd say this was the type of person to whom the camera is now a permanent extension of his body and it's a big deal to capture everything so it can be uploaded to the internet later.
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1406 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 30865 times:
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 14): They don't say *anything*, ever. Even after the crash, they just turn the cameras back on and walk around soundless.
I'm quite certain it was filmed with a GoPro in its protective/waterproof housing. I use one myself and the case will block and muffle all but the loudest sounds, which explains the lack of talking and other ambient sounds. In the end, all you really hear are the creaking noises as the camera is handled in its protective case.
You can barely hear someone raising their voice as they're about to hit the trees though.
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 11166 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 29558 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 22): Is it me or during take-off the plane goes down to the strip before "taking off" again ? That should have been a clue right there that if was not going to fly.
It does appear to get airborne and stay in ground effect before hitting the ground again since you see the thud of it coming back down. To me, that should be a sign that you need to get some weight out of the plane or reschedule your flight. I don't know what was going on in the mind of the pilot and what pressure he was in. We obviously know the consequences of this specific event, but there have been plenty of other circumstances where airplanes struggle to get airborne, but eventually make it to their destination safely. 4 adult men in a 4 seat airplane that has less than 1100 lbs of useable payload is always going to be a struggle at high elevations on a hot day.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
MrMatt From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 1 day ago) and read 28279 times:
I would agree also with the overgross theory. Not only that but textbook "high, hot & heavy." Idaho is generally mountainous so 80 or 90 deg. temps can drastically affect DA. Glad to hear everyone survived though.
"3 things that won't help you: Runway behind you, Altitude above you & Fuel in the fuel truck"
: Yikes. But I don't know about the passengers' account.... "After taking off we hit an air pocket that made us rapidly loose altitude, pushing us down
: That was the shallowest rapid loss of altitude I've ever seen. Indeed, hot, high, and heavy. Not a good combo. Looks like a nice campsite, though.
: You would think after the forever takeoff run and lack of altitude, he would have set it down before approaching the trees and hills. I know I would h
: Even the NTSB preliminary report quotes the passenger as saying they hit a "downdraft". Oh well, the video pretty much explains it all.
: I got my PPL while flying out of Glenwood Springs, CO airport. Elevation @ 5900msl. I learned what density altitude means the hard way and the sinking
: Same here. I did my training out of GEU, and shortly after getting my ticket I took my parents up to Payson. It was a warm day in April, and I was ge
: You guys should try doing your entire commercial, instrument training here in BOG(8.360MSL) on a 40 year old C-152/PA-28. Especially when some of you
: No, according to the NTSB report it's a Stinson 108-3, a rather attractive 4-place taildragger capable of carrying a good-sized load.
: Yeah the first time I watched it I was at work and had the volume on my PC at about 50%, and I could hear the engine and the sounds of the camera bei
: It was a forest service flight, I remember. Ah, there is the video: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=316_1249535759 David
: Too heavy, too hot, too high. Abysmal airmanship.
: It was obvious the airplane wouldn't fly correctly from the get-go. He had plenty of time to abandon take off, and then to land again on soft grass se
: Judging by the obvious load of 4 adults, possibly 20 to 30 gallons of fuel the Stinson was at or near sea level gross takeoff weight. Throw in a densi
: Seems like there's at least a couple of teachable moments in this video: 1.) I wonder what the takeoff performance and weight-and-balance data would s
: Saw this yesterday on LiveLeak. The warning signs were all there during the take off roll. Especially as it touched down again before becoming airborn
: without seeing a weight and balance and some performance charts for that plane (as i've never flown one) its impossible to say if they were within wei
: Exactly. For all of the blame placed on the pilot (justified, it seems), at least he didn't spin in.
: I may be wrong, I only watched the video quickly, but I didn't see a stall. In fact (as somebody said above) the 'controlled' decent into the trees w
: I knew it was overloaded and too hot even before he got in the air the first time. That takeoff roll was simply far too long...
: No single engine GA prop plane under 200hp, (a stock Stinson has, at most, 165hp...possibly only 150...at sea level), can be accurately called a true
: I saw the video yesterday and thought the same thing. All of that wide open area and unfortunately they hit the trees.
: The stall was in reference to an older crash video on the same website, in which the pilot did manage to stall the aircraft at a similar altitude. Th
: For operations this high, presumably you would lean the mixture for take off?
: I did flight training out of North Las Vegas Airport in a Piper Traumahawk. The flight school lost a Tomahawk while taking off from Boulder City durin
: Ah, my mistake, I do remember seeing that one as well. My apologies AF1624.
: Ah, no worries, it wasn't very clear in my post I was referring to the second video In the first video though, I think the "controlled crash" comes d
: Firstly, glad these guys walked away Agree with Lemmy. The guy did one thing right...he did not attempt a turn back....that would have resulted in a
: No A tail wind could explain the long take off roll, but not the lack of climb performance. Yes What is obvious is that the plane did not have the pe
: Here's a quote from the pilot's son: "I knew that the takeoff took a little longer than normal," Tol Gropp told Boise's KBOI-TV. "But the runway was s
: Or the carb heat was left on, or the engine was not developing full horsepower. This guy flying had plenty of chances to abort and save the airplane
: Additionionally, this model Stinson had the following specs. The 108-3 introduced a taller vertical fin with a rudder featuring a straight trailing ed
: Ugh. These videos always make me excited to fly. *sarcasm* Obviously there's a big difference in experience, power and safety equipment on a modern je
: I see all the comments, but if you check out the passengers view of the crash, I don't see any flaps being used. Now, maybe they were used for takeoff
: Exactly. People who are pilots should pay attention to videos and NTSB crash reports like this. Because if it happened to somebody else, it definitel
: That's one scary experience for anyone... Certainly appeared to be struggling from the beginning... Happy to see all onboard have survived to tell sp
60 Max Q
: I'm surprised no one has mentioned whether the Pilot leaned the mixture for best power prior to take off. I just watched the clip on CNN and saw the m
: Not leaning the mixture for best power at that elevation would be a loss of about 150 RPM. Enough to make a difference. I owned a Stinson 108 about 20
: Probably not a good idea according to these Stinson pilots: http://www.stinsonclub.org/newBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32
: Holy crap! Never seen anything like it... Glad everyone got out more or less unscathed.
: Here's another quote from the son in that article: "I honestly believe my dad saved our lives by the way he continued to fly the plane through the tr
: I was trying not to be too critical of the pilot, but it sounds like this guy does no preflight planning at all. Crashing because he had to divert be
: The NTSB report says he is a commercial pilot - which I realize does not mean he flies for a large airline, but he is at least no "amateur". He does
: "Commercial pilot" is a rating. It speaks to the level of training, not what you actually do for a living. Tom.
: Yes, a commercial ticket is a rating, but what it really does is allows you to be paid for your pilot services. If you are a private pilot all you ca
: Humorous reaction to those words aside, I am inclined to agree. I also second the above comments about the ridgelines in all directions of the field