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Air Canada Fleet Overhaul & LCC Ops  
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 19088 times:

I just came across this news... Looks like AC is now looking at replacing its narrow-body fleet and starting LCC ops next year. A320NEO, B737MAX and the C-Series are being looked at by AC.

KrisYYZ

"Air Canada is in the midst of plotting a dramatic overhaul of its fleet that management says will include the launch of its new low-cost carrier sometime in 2013."

http://business.financialpost.com/20...aunch-of-low-cost-carrier-in-2013/

131 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18920 times:

Has AC not learned from their past mistakes? I guess they've forgotten about their previous attempt at an LCC operation, Air Canada Tango. If the airline within an airline concept was a winning concept, Delta would still have Song and United would still have Ted.

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18907 times:

To the average economy class passenger such as myself, there is no difference between AC's current level of service and that of an LCC.

This is just a gimmick by AC to reduce its fleet, cut salaries and start fresh...a la AVEOS.....

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-08-08 12:51:22]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4971 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 18829 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Has AC not learned from their past mistakes? I guess they've forgotten about their previous attempt at an LCC operation, Air Canada Tango. If the airline within an airline concept was a winning concept, Delta would still have Song and United would still have Ted.

I'm sure the people at Air Canada have very diligent people to assess the feasibility of this concept. Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas), Scoot, AirOne etc.

Air Canada is not here to launch a domestic LCC. It's looking for international growth at cheaper seat cost in order to partake in a larger leisure segment of the market.

Delta/Ted were competing in the domestic market - they both have re-oriented their respective airline towards international growth.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 18760 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
I'm sure the people at Air Canada have very diligent people to assess the feasibility of this concept. Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas), Scoot, AirOne etc.


After the failure of Air Canada Zip, and Air Canada Tango, I certainly hope so.

This appears to be the future of the business, and it was only a matter of time before it spread to international flying. However, my personal opinion is that there is not enough talent in Air Canada to make this work. Time and time again I have seen Air Canada's management handed a golden egg only to toss it away!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 18673 times:

I'm not an aviation insider so I may be way off the mark, but AC seems to be directing this new LCC ops at TS 's trans-atlantic and leisure travel market. In theory, if AC launches LCC TATL flights to Germany, Austria or Italy, would those pax be able to transfer onto Star Alliance partners for onwards travel? Can JetStar pax transfer to QF flights?

Since AC plans on transferring their 763s to LCC ops, is there any chance of seeing winglets and flightdeck upgrades added to the B763 fleet?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
To the average economy class passenger such as myself, there is no difference between AC's current level of service and that of an LCC.

I would agree with you when it comes to domestic/trans-boarder flights. But not when it comes to long-haul ops. There is a very distinct difference between AC and TS on TATL flights (granted a smaller difference now that TS is upgrading their cabins).

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24922 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 18469 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Has AC not learned from their past mistakes? I guess they've forgotten about their previous attempt at an LCC operation, Air Canada Tango.

Tango wasn't an LCC. It was a different brand using AC staff and higher density seating to spread costs over more passengers. Tango was converted to a separate fare category within the regular AC operation.

Zip was a separate AC-owned LCC which if memory correct had separate staff (at least ground staff) on different, lower-cost contracts, and using ex-CP 737-200s. It was shut down when the 732s were retired. I wouldn't call it a mistake as it permitted service in some western Canada markets at lower than AC mainline costs. I seem to recall that AC negotiated new, more flexible union agreements that made Zip redundant.


User currently offlinevoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2074 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 18357 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):

Since AC plans on transferring their 763s to LCC ops, is there any chance of seeing winglets and flightdeck upgrades added to the B763 fleet?

Yeah 'winglets' was first thing I thought as well.
That and the inevitable LCC livery i.e. billboard ['LCC!] titles and either all white or hideous flourescent all over coat.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 18299 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):
I'm not an aviation insider so I may be way off the mark, but AC seems to be directing this new LCC ops at TS 's trans-atlantic and leisure travel market.

I was under the impression (last I'd read) that the LCC will be based in YVR, for services over the Pacific. But then again, an east coast-based LCC would make more sense, as AC could fly into such places as MAN/GLA/NCE, and shift the current BCN/DUB/ATH flights from mainline to LCC. Also, add Carribean flights (POS, and possibly some mainlines moved to the LCC). There are so many possibilities, I don't think anyone really knows the answer at this time.


User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 777 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18137 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Zip was a separate AC-owned LCC which if memory correct had separate staff (at least ground staff) on different, lower-cost contracts, and using ex-CP 737-200s. It was shut down when the 732s were retired. I wouldn't call it a mistake as it permitted service in some western Canada markets at lower than AC mainline costs. I seem to recall that AC negotiated new, more flexible union agreements that made Zip redundant.

The only employees that actual Zip employees were the FAs, crew scheduling and office staff. Check in agents were AC employees, ground handlers were AC, pilots were AC (just a lower pay scale) and ops people were Jazz employees.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18093 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas),

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't QANTAS domestic do rather well and MAKE money? It's QANTAS international that bleeds red.


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18011 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 8):
I was under the impression (last I'd read) that the LCC will be based in YVR, for services over the Pacific. But then again, an east coast-based LCC would make more sense, as AC could fly into such places as MAN/GLA/NCE, and shift the current BCN/DUB/ATH flights from mainline to LCC. Also, add Carribean flights (POS, and possibly some mainlines moved to the LCC). There are so many possibilities, I don't think anyone really knows the answer at this time.

All of which only lends credence to the theory that AC really has no idea what this LCC is supposed to be. A Carribean leisure carrier? A Transpacific carrier? What will be left of mainline's international route network?

And if AC is in such financial straits that they require deep concessions from employees, how is it they have so much cash for fleet renewal?


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 17954 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Certainly you've heard of JetStar (the only profitable part of Qantas), Scoot, AirOne etc.

I thought QF Domestic was also profitable? I seem to be very much under the impression that only QF International is struggling.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Air Canada is not here to launch a domestic LCC.

JetStar has domestic operations as well, doesn't it? Do those contribute to its profitability?

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):
I'm not an aviation insider so I may be way off the mark, but AC seems to be directing this new LCC ops at TS 's trans-atlantic and leisure travel market.

I've read a lot suggesting it is going to be TPAC.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 5):
There is a very distinct difference between AC and TS on TATL flights (granted a smaller difference now that TS is upgrading their cabins).

At that end of the market, I suspect price will be a more important factor than actual offering. That said, will the LCC still offer *A points? How does Jetstar work in this context? Do they earn OW points? Will these be Tango fares (50% mileage?). I can see mileage accrual being more important than comfort in some markets.

Quoting multimark (Reply 11):
All of which only lends credence to the theory that AC really has no idea what this LCC is supposed to be. A Carribean leisure carrier? A Transpacific carrier? What will be left of mainline's international route network?

A very pertinent question. Presumably mainline international routes will be slashed away over time, with only a handful remaining (like QF)?


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 17817 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 12):
I've read a lot suggesting it is going to be TPAC.

So have I, there was even talk of AC getting some 77Ls from AI and converting them to high-density, LCC ops. But even if the LCC arm of AC is based out of YVR and focuses on TPAC flights, I bet AC would eventually target TATL destinations as well. That is if the LCC long-haul model works out.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17779 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't QANTAS domestic do rather well and MAKE money? It's QANTAS international that bleeds red.

True and Jetstar makes money on both domestic & international services.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Tango wasn't an LCC. It was a different brand using AC staff
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Zip was a separate AC-owned LCC which if memory correct had separate staff (at least ground staff)

Based on the Qantas/Jetstar experience the ONLY way this will work is to acquire/setup a TOTALLY separate corporations that has NO obligations to ANY contracts that bind Air Canada. QF did it by acquiring Impulse Airlines which had its own operating certificates, labour and supplier agreements (for ALL staff & suppliers) then appoint a "tough nut" like Alan Joyce, CEO and give him the authority, directly from the full Board of Directors, to run the LCC without ANY interference from the legacy airline.
Otherwise they are just wasting their time and resources, as the established bureaucracy will "white-ant" the new carrier from the inside, to protect their own interests.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 17692 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 13):
But even if the LCC arm of AC is based out of YVR and focuses on TPAC flights, I bet AC would eventually target TATL destinations as well. That is if the LCC long-haul model works out.

IIRC, Ben Smith, one of AC's executives said AC was looking for a partner in Asia for this low cost venture. I believe the article was in the Globe and Mail (can't seem to find it). If they're looking for an Asian partner and planning to offshore some of the jobs to Asia, then it will be some time before they go for the Atlantic.

If they do go TATL, I can only guess that they will take over all routes aside from LHR, FRA and possibly CDG?


User currently offlineGregsterYUL From Canada, joined Oct 2011, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 17645 times:

Quote:
There are several new entrants in the narrowbody market for the airline to consider, including the Boeing 737MAX, Airbus A320neo, and Bombardier’s CSeries aircraft.

The article doesn't say that AC is looking at these aircraft.. Although I'd be shocked if they ordered 737s or even C-Series. The mainline narrow body fleet will remain Airbus and don't expect a narrow body order until the end of the decade.

That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

[Edited 2012-08-08 20:09:37]

User currently offlinestrangr From Australia, joined Apr 2012, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17282 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 14):
QF did it by acquiring Impulse Airlines which had its own operating certificates

but what airline could they buy to obtain such an operating certificate. Does it need to be a large commercial or can it be a small commercial based seaplane operator and then smash in a few T7's and wham a new airline hits the market.


User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 777 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16781 times:
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Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

The only Embraers that could be operated by Jazz or any other company under agreement would be the 175s. The 190s are to large since the agreement limits them to 76 seats.

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
The article doesn't say that AC is looking at these aircraft.. Although I'd be shocked if they ordered 737s or even C-Series. The mainline narrow body fleet will remain Airbus and don't expect a narrow body order until the end of the decade.

The article does talk about AC and these newer aircraft. They even mention the fact the delivery slots are filling up but they are in no rush. With AC switching their long haul fleet to Boeing I think I'd be more surprised if Airbus is the narrow body replacement. There is some commonality between the aircraft.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16340 times:

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

Jazz is too expensive.

If any smaller narrow body aircraft are transferred to Air Canada Express, they will be operated by SkyRegional. In fact, one of the outcomes of the new pilot contract, is that Jazz no longer has a percentage "right" to regional flying. There is nothing stopping AC from transferring all new regional flying to SkyRegional .... slowly phasing out Jazz.

With regard to the CPA, one thing that has become apparent with the election of the majority Conservative Government, is how very closely large corporations are now working with the government. AC need only show financial hardship and the contract is cancelled. Or ... use the new bill C33 to just cut employee wages and working conditions.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16264 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Jazz is too expensive.

If any smaller narrow body aircraft are transferred to Air Canada Express, they will be operated by SkyRegional. In fact, one of the outcomes of the new pilot contract, is that Jazz no longer has a percentage "right" to regional flying. There is nothing stopping AC from transferring all new regional flying to SkyRegional .... slowly phasing out Jazz.

But still cheaper than AC mainline, even post-enforced contract. Cheapness will have to be balanced against the ability to ramp up a large operation. I'd be very interested to hear if the AC pilots even tried to fight having the regional flying to pushed down to Tier 3 carriers, or if moaning about a "race to the bottom" is just talk. As to phasing out Jazz, as you're well aware, under the terms of the CPA, AC cannot do that beyond a minimum threshold, short of a trip through CCAA, and I doubt you'd want to see that.

Given that AC is effectively tied in a relationship to Jazz for another 7 years, one would hope that AC management is smart enough to utilize the situation effectively, though that is far from certain, given their lacklustre track record.


User currently offlineflyb From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 684 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16245 times:

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 18):
Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 16):
That being said the Embraers will most likely be transferred over to some other deal such as Jazz to operate under "Air Canada Express"

The only Embraers that could be operated by Jazz or any other company under agreement would be the 175s. The 190s are to large since the agreement limits them to 76 seats.

Even the new agreement??


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16252 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 15):
If they do go TATL, I can only guess that they will take over all routes aside from LHR, FRA and possibly CDG?

i doubt GVA, BRU and MUC will be transfered to LCC ops either !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16166 times:

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 8):
I was under the impression (last I'd read) that the LCC will be based in YVR, for services over the Pacific. But then again, an east coast-based LCC would make more sense, as AC could fly into such places as MAN/GLA/NCE, and shift the current BCN/DUB/ATH flights from mainline to LCC. Also, add Carribean flights (POS, and possibly some mainlines moved to the LCC). There are so many possibilities, I don't think anyone really knows the answer at this time.

There are a lot of projects currently on the burner.

There was the initial LCC which was a "leisure/vacation" type venture aimed at Canadian charter carriers. This will operate 140 seat A319s and 270 seat B767-300s. (ouch) This will be flown by Air Canada pilots at greatly reduced wages, with NO other AC employees. Flight attendants will be hired off the street, and handling will be contracted out.

Proposed routes are Caribbean and Atlantic to lower yield destinations.

The Asian LCC was in response to apparent success of Jetstar and Scoot. It is proposed to operate B777s and possibly B787s in a higher density configuration. The new pilot contract allows AC to hire pilots outside of the airline. Again, all other employees will be hired from outside. It will be hard to find pilots, as current Asian contracts being offered by "agents" offer higher wages, better working conditions and more rights that the new AC pilot contract.

And that brings me to the new AC pilot contract itself. Everyone thought it was to reduce pilot costs, but that is incorrect. As pilot costs were about the same as Westjet and much lower than Southwest, Cathay, Singapore, etc. However, the old AC pilot contract "protected" a lot of other employee groups that were more expensive than the competition. Namely ground handling, Flight Attendants and Jazz for example. They now stand alone, and I predict a lot of lay-offs in those groups.

Pilot hiring is still going at max capacity, however, with the reduced wages and working conditions of the new contract, for the first time in AC's 75 year history, pilots are not showing up for the first day of training, as they can find better deals!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 16048 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 20):
But still cheaper than AC mainline, even post-enforced contract.

But mainline will not be flying the aircraft. Likely SkyRegional will, and Air Canada recently announced that seat mile costs of a Q400 flown by SkyRegional are less than HALF that of jazz/Chorus.

Quoting multimark (Reply 20):
As to phasing out Jazz, as you're well aware, under the terms of the CPA, AC cannot do that beyond a minimum threshold, short of a trip through CCAA, and I doubt you'd want to see that.

You mean like AVEOS? It wouldn't take much, and CCAA wouldn't even be necessary.

Quoting multimark (Reply 20):
I'd be very interested to hear if the AC pilots even tried to fight having the regional flying to pushed down to Tier 3 carriers, or if moaning about a "race to the bottom" is just talk.

The whole fight during negotiations was to stop the "race to the bottom" as it affected mostly the junior pilots. However, the "race to the bottom" was started by Jazz during the 2003 trip through CCAA when Jazz proposed operating Air Canada's EMJs and A320s at half the wages. That is why the EMJs today fly at a far less wage than the pilot "formula" would have allowed.

I recall a few years ago flying with an exJazz pilot who moaned about the low wages on the EMJ. I don't think he saw the irony when I brought up how that all happened!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 9252fly : I would have to agree. One just needs to look at where the current high Y configured B763 fly today to get an idea where the LCC will operate. Same t
26 krisyyz : I stand corrected... But I would disagree with the narrow body fleet staying Airbus. One of AC's reason for ditiching the A340s for the B777/787s was
27 ElPistolero : Pardon my ignorance, but is GVA a high-yield route? ZRH never struck me as anything great. Would AC continue with MUC or hand it over wholesale to LH
28 ElPistolero : Interesting insight into the new pilot contract. Are prospective pilots really going to other airlines? Which ones? Will AC be hiring Asian pilots fo
29 robsaw : AVEOS was spun-off by ACE Aviation after the last round of restructuring under bankruptcy protection and isn't really a comparable situation to what
30 idlewildchild : I wonder if the commercial aviation industry will ever return to a genuine focus on the customer experience and the belief that if you make that exper
31 multimark : But mainline will not be flying the aircraft. Likely SkyRegional will, and Air Canada recently announced that seat mile costs of a Q400 flown by SkyRe
32 Kaiarahi : I fly YOW-YUL-BRU 8-10 times a year and J is usually 90+% full. In addition to being a *A Africa hub, BRU is closer to North Rhine-Westphalia (the mo
33 LostSound : I hope they stick to the Airbus narrow bodies and keep the aircraft diversity amongst airlines in Canada. WestJet will probably spring for the 737MAX.
34 phxa340 : WSJ has said that to garner customers from Airbus, Boeing is discounting the MAX by 10% under Airbus' offer. Air Canada is prime for Boeing to pick u
35 LostSound : Yes. However given how close AC and Airbus have been working together for the first biofuel A330 flight and Air Canada's strong Airbus A32X presence,
36 Post contains links srbmod : Air Canada Tango was an LCC "airline within an airline" like Song (and Delta Express before that) was for Delta and Ted (and Shuttle By United/United
37 Viscount724 : I've never considered that type of operation that uses the same employees as the mainline carrier and working under the same union agreements and sal
38 longhauler : It doesn't have to happen quickly, and I am quite certain that it will not. Moving that many aircraft from one company to another would be a burden r
39 longhauler : I don't know if they went to other airlines, or just stayed where they were. Just that with every new pilot class, there have been no-shows, somethin
40 multimark : I had to go back to this, as there's a huge amount of irony here. Had ACPA not overeacted to the Jazz pilots opening gambit to fly E-jets and A320's,
41 robsaw : While C-33 sets a precedent. It was and is a specific Act applicable to a specific employer (AC) for a specific event and is not of any legal effect
42 longhauler : The E-jets are the same weight and mission as the DC-9s and B737s that they replaced, and had been flying with AC and CP for more than 30 years. Why
43 longhauler : Yes, that is right. Do you really think it is a stretch to think that that same thing would happen again to a different company? As you state ... C33
44 ANM604 : While I respect you, and your profession, this is utter bs/complete union spin. I absolutely do not believe that flying a plane, much less one for AC
45 davidCA : Where the LCC flight attendants and other employees will come from hasn't been determined yet. It's not a given that they'll be hired off the street.
46 mandala499 : Scoot is actually in SQ's response to Jetstar Asia's and Air Asia X's success in medium haul routes. Scoot is still in its infancy. Air Asia X's long
47 zkncj : I don't think any full service airline has really been able to create a LCC without a major cost to their own business. You just have to look at how m
48 longhauler : Actually, working conditions referred to when compared to other country's air crew duty and crewing restrictions. It is no secret that Canada's air c
49 bmacleod : I'd like to see AC pick 737MAX; though hindsight tells me they'll chose a mix of A320NEOs and being Canadian of course the C-series.
50 ytz : Much as I would love to see AC buy some CSeries birds (I think it's the perfect fleet for AC narrowbody), I'm left wondering where they'd get the fina
51 ytz : I think the CSeries would work for them, not because it's Canadian but because it could replace the E-Jets and the A320s. Especially if BBD launches
52 Revelation : Many should say that is as it should be: supply and demand should determine wages, and if AC's wages aren't cutting it, they'll have no choice but to
53 homSar : Hindsight? You mean to tell me they've already made a decision?
54 longhauler : That is in an ideal world. However, my biggest fear is that instead of increasing wages, they will decrease hiring standards simply to fill seats. Th
55 multimark : That's not my point. As I pointed out, the CPA is benchmarked to other North American CPA's, so if its started as too much, there is always the oppor
56 longhauler : Or just pull an AVEOS. But you are right, if the CPA runs its full length, then jazz/Chorus will have to do a lot of pencil sharpening to get even cl
57 gemuser : And just what has "Jetstar" done to Qantas, except make money? And keeping it on topic, what lessons are there for AC in it? Gemuser
58 bos2laf : Bingo. If AC goes ahead and ditches the E75's, they can lay off a good number of their US-based staff. The IBT contract is with Air Canada, not Jazz,
59 challengerdan : ACPA is pulling to keep flying among their ranks, Jazz is pulling to get some new business. It is a win-win situation for AC. And when Jazz is mature
60 challengerdan : Will the 737Max accept containerized cargo? I think that is one of the mains reasons why AC went with the A32S family in the first place, and this fe
61 ytz : I'm curious about this. To me, it would seem that if AC is going to operate two narrowbody types (E-Jets and A320) would they not be better off getti
62 longhauler : I think in the long run, the creation of jazz made both good economic sense, and operational sense. Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Alliance, Air Nova all o
63 longhauler : I see what you are saying, but I think the long term thoughts have only one narrow body series in AC, not two. With the bottom end being flown by reg
64 ytz : I was comparing it to the CSeries. Surprised you think the E-Jets will better the CSeries. Wider seats, more luggage space, larger windows. The only
65 longhauler : That is currently allowed in the new pilot contract. But, as you can imagine, the logistics and costs would be prohibitive in the short term, but may
66 longhauler : The E175s fly YYZ-YXE, YYZ-YQR, YUL-YWG and YOW-YWG. (Among others of course, but these are the longest). Until taken over by the CRJ705, YYZ-IAH and
67 sunrisevalley : On the A320Neo and 737Max debate, as I read it, if the sector distance is about 800nm the 737Max is more cost effective; if it is greater use the A320
68 ytz : They have 10 right now. But I'd argue that there may be a shift coming. Sub-150 seats for most of the regular domestic and trans-border North America
69 Viscount724 : Another issue with the Q400 is often having to fly through weather and associated turbulence which you'd be flying over on a CRJ, due to the Q400s ma
70 longhauler : Yes, even the plain old B737-200 ADV with a MTOW of 117,000 could fly YYZ-YEG with ease, the exCP -217s with a MTOW of 124,500 could fly YYZ-YVR, and
71 YVRLTN : My personal opinion has always been there is no room for the CS at AC at the moment. However, it will really depend whats happens with the E-Jets and
72 ytz : Seems to me that most of those routes could support upgauging with a marginal frequency cut. Looking at YYZ-YQR for example. Westjet has one flight p
73 ANM604 : I'm not disputing that. I seem to recall this was recently changed. However, just because the Americans are doing it, doesn't make it 100% true. I'll
74 columba : I still see high chances for the CSeries, Bombardier will fight hard to get an order from the biggest airline in Canada. The only disadvantage is tha
75 ytz : I've seen this before. And I'm always left wondering if AC uses ULDs because the have A320s or did they order the A320s because of the ULDs? They ord
76 yyz717 : The E190/E175 fleet and A321 fleets are young. The A320 fleet is aging. This will be the first replacement (IMO). I see AC sticking with the A32xneo w
77 longhauler : All regionals operate under the "Air Canada Express" trade name, with "Operated by ...." on the fuselage. AC's CPA with jazz/Chorus is for a set numb
78 Post contains links multimark : Chorus Aviation sees opportunity and risk in AC Pilots deal: http://business.financialpost.com/20...ion-in-air-canada-pilots-contract/
79 yyz717 : So the new pilot contract allows unlimited transfers of mainline transfer to regionals? Or is this still a cap or formula involved?
80 longhauler : There is still a formula, but it allows up to 120 seats.
81 yyz717 : Interesting article about Chorus/Jazz in today's NP. Chorus recognizes its high costs and the end of its (relatively absolute) exclusive regional ops
82 Post contains links and images multimark : Hmm, that would be the article I posted the link to, a couple posts up. Isn't there a Q400 leased by Jazz from Skyregional? The YTZ operation must be
83 connies4ever : I believe one of the reasons for AC choosing the 320 being able to handle containerised be loads.. The 319 not, as the weight saving would permit YHZ
84 9252fly : It was for a short time and the route was longer than YYT - LHR. Amazing in those days what cheap oil allowed the A319 to do! Should be interesting t
85 drgmobile : This is a rather American perspective. If Qantas had such a narrow view on strategy the prosperous Jetstar wouldn't exist. The LCC moniker ascribed t
86 yyz717 : Which routes? That I could understand. The 15x daily YTZ-YUL route can likely be handled by 4 Q400's.
87 longhauler : It is not a matter of three vice four, it often is two vice four. The majority of Canadian air carriers are crossing the Atlantic with only two pilot
88 ytz : I doubt that. Somehow I doubt any airline will up crews on the mainline. Why would they? That's just cost.
89 whiteguy : The Sky Regional schedule has always been operated with 4 aircraft with a 5th as a spare. The aircraft leased to Jazz is only for a couple months dur
90 challengerdan : Word from a highly ranked Jazz Executive, it is YUL-YQM. Apparently planned for October. Seems that it is not set in stone yet.
91 longhauler : Other way around. LESS crews on the LCC. That's just cheaper!
92 ytz : The thing is though, what defines an LCC is the pax experience. Pax have fewer services on an LCC. And airlines get to save money since there is not
93 Post contains images longhauler : This question would only arise in Canada, as we have an embarrassing set of Canadian Air Regulations .... far far more liberal than every "civilised"
94 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Assume you're referring to leisure carriers like Air Transat (which also sells scheduled seats). What other Canadian charter/leisure carriers are cur
95 longhauler : That's it. And ... Transat carries more people across the Atlantic than Air Canada! Why do you think that is? Sure isn't cause 9 across in an A330 or
96 multimark : Except AC management has also claimed this new airline will be based in YVR and serve Asia. How is that compatible with a leisure carrier serving sun
97 connies4ever : Well, ex YVR they could try to open up new sun markets like RAR, GUM, and perhaps HIR. Plus all of Hawaii from Canada (current HNL, OGG, KOA, possibl
98 longhauler : As I said above, it is actually two separate projects. Using 140 seat A319s and 270 seat B767s, change the existing low yield Atlantic flying, and cu
99 davidCA : Longhauler, from where do you have it that the LCC will involve no other current AC employees, that ground handling will be contracted and that F/As w
100 longhauler : When the pilot's first started negotiating two years ago, the concept of the LCC was brought to the table. Of course, pilots were skeptical ... after
101 rp tpa : And if these 2 ventures are profitable, who gets to share the $$$?? The current AC employees? Or, (more likely), the top executives and the stockhold
102 multimark : Well that really doesn't leave anything left for "Air Canada" to do, does it?
103 longhauler : That would be an ideal scenario for the soon to be defunct ACE Aviation. Part everything off and sell it, run with the spoils for which the Canadian
104 flyyul : Longhauler With the amount of disinformation you're posting on this site, one has to wonder if you're not being requested by your union to do this. Le
105 flyyul : Are you suggesting that Air Canada should be something other than it's core competency - an airline. Why should Air Canada also be an MRO, loyalty pr
106 ElPistolero : If longhauler is spreading disinformation, then just say so. He lists what he believes is true. You list what you believe is true. In the long run, w
107 abrelosojos : = Don't you think the jury is out there on some of that though? One can argue that a cash producing loyalty program (like Aeroplan) could have genera
108 longhauler : I am going to avoid your opinions, which clearly are different than mine, and stick to fact ... and at the same time to stick to the actual topic of
109 whiteguy : Which Air Transat pilots should we look at? The ones still working there or the 50 that just got laid off?
110 longhauler : I was originally going to ignore this drivel as it contributes nothing to the message thread, however I don't want you to think my silence is an admi
111 ytz : @longhauler I don't disagree with you, sir. I just think it's an odd thing to argue that LCCs and mainline will have notably different safety standard
112 yyz717 : This is probably in line with the decline in unit revenue. Pilot salaries are determined (ultimately) by the revenue paying passengers -- if the reve
113 longhauler : While I try to write in a clear manner, sometimes my point is not obvious. I will try again. First of all, Air Canada is a very safe airline. They we
114 longhauler : While I agree with this, look at your last statement. "This goes for all work groups". So far it hasn't, so far the greatest share of the pain has be
115 flyyul : Sure - but would Aeroplan have reached the heights it is currently reaching if it was run by Air Canada?
116 flyyul : Longhauler 1. I'm staring at the contract as we speak. The scope clause is quite clearly mentioned at 76 seats. 2. It is true that the pilots compensa
117 ytz : I guess I see the CARs as the lowest common denominator that all airlines will eventually gravitate towards. Including AC.
118 connies4ever : I'll lob in a factoid that I don't think has been raised in this discussion about AC and the proposed LCC (or LCCs, perhaps): there are currently ~70K
119 longhauler : So you are telling me, the Pacific LCC which does not necessarily have to have AC pilots, will be flown by aircraft carrying less than 76 passengers?
120 Post contains images longhauler : I don't mind being a target at all. Comes with being a Captain! But you are right. We all have to accept the job is changing. I look at the changes f
121 longhauler : This one had me scratching my head. As I have to assume you wouldn't say something you know to be incorrect, so I did a bit of digging. And I can see
122 connies4ever : A very good point. Fellow that married a cousin was a 340 driver for Coastal. Applied for and interviewed with ANA for a 767 right hand seat, I belie
123 flyyul : Longhauler - let's be clear. All aircraft over 76 seats operated by Air Canada will be flown with ACPA pilots. Anything under 76 seats will be going
124 longhauler : 76 seats, 90 seats, or 120 seats, depends on how successful a lawyer can be! But that is only for the North American scope clause. And as I stated ab
125 brilondon : In regards to the LCC start up, you would think that AC of all airlines would know better then anybody about the market in Canada for this type of ser
126 krisyyz : That's a lot of 777s for AC to find on the market. How many 77Ws are due from Boeing? I know they have 3 active orders but there was talk of AC leasi
127 Post contains links Viscount724 : Came across this recent item from the Canadian magazine Maclean's about a Jazz pilot and his comments on his background, training and on his current
128 ykaops : To be honest.. How much has the Canadian Public paid over the years to sustain AC? 2 billion or so wiped offthe boards by the Govt when AC went privat
129 challengerdan : SkyRegional now operates flights YQM-YTZ via YUL 3 times a day from October, according to the new timetable. I am guessing that AirCanada figured a w
130 ricardofg : Rather have off the street then the "cheery" group they have doing europe now.
131 connies4ever : It's interesting to note, similar to AC's desire to set up a separate LCC, a big driver in LH's current labour difficulties is the exact same goal: a
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