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AA Pilots Reject Contract  
User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 791 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16634 times:
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pilots...t-american-airlines-175617745.html

Wow. Just wow. Keeping things interesting that's for sure.

I thought the vote might have been a little closer but I guess it just further highlights the animosity between the labor groups and management.

[Edited 2012-08-08 11:48:58]

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16399 times:

Reading some pilot forums....it sounds like that the AA pilots are not happy that this contract was all concessionary and they got nothing in return. The general feeling among pilots in the industry is that AA pilots are taking a stand and this no vote will strengthen their position and that they will get a better contract in the future, and they also feel that this will pressure AA more into a US merger, where they obviously have a lot to gain based on the agreement they reached with Parker.

While I understand what the AA pilots are doing with their no vote, I do think the no vote does more harm than good. For one thing, this was the companies last offer, now a new contract is going to be imposed on APA in bankruptcy, and the terms of this contract is probably going to be worse than this contract they just rejected. Secondly, the work rules at AA are so out of whack with the rest of industry that if the pilots think they are going to keep the same types of work rules, they are living in the past. Thirdly, although a merger with US would be good for the AA pilots, they can not count on such a merger to happen, and the agreement they had with US would have been effective regardless of the vote on this proposal. Lastly, although DL just had a contract agreement ratified, the UA pilots are in a contract negotiation of their own, and if the BK judge imposes all of what AA wants..it is going to put the UA pilots in a very difficult position as Smisek will use the AA contract as a baseline for negotiations and anything that DL may have gained is going to be negated by the AA contract.

I really fear for the AA pilots too...I suspect some of them are really good guys...but their stubbornness has cost them more than they realize...and as long as they have that attitude...they are going to have a real tough time moving forward and it makes AA management job that much harder.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16316 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
but their stubbornness has cost them more than they realize

   Every other industry has taken cuts. This entitlement needs to be minimized. I understand that it is hard to go from a certain sized paycheck and or work hours to less money and more hours but the rest of the country has been doing this since '08 and don't have the benefits of unionized action like Pilots do. I know many will argue that this strategy was done to aid the merger with US but AA pilots now are going to get worse terms that will make AA more profitable. To the creditors , while labor strife is bad, AA now has even more cost savings and productivity out of their pilots.


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16298 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
For one thing, this was the companies last offer,

Everything is management's last offer.

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
now a new contract is going to be imposed on APA in bankruptcy,

That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.


User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16207 times:

While some industries have taken reductions since 2008, you're completely glossing over the fact that airline labor has been on concessionary contracts since 2001. What other industry has lost 40% of their salaries and 100% of their pensions?

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16141 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 4):
What other industry has lost 40% of their salaries and 100% of their pensions?

Seriously ? You name it ... Financial , Automotive, Telecommunications. And what industry even has Pensions anymore in the first place ?


User currently onlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16143 times:
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The union is betting the airline will blink and they'll get a bit more then the final offer. That may happen but its just as likely the court will impose a contract that is current industry standard...which might be really bad for the pilots given their current deal.

User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 791 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 15612 times:
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Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

Not sure scared it the right word. However, I hope AA management realizes that the decisions they decide to impose on the pilots will have consequences to one degree or another.

I think it's going to be interesting if all the other unions approve their contracts, except for the pilot group. It potentially is going to leave them out in the cold in the eyes of the BK judge, AA management, and any potential merger partners.
It also leaves them vulerable for even deeper cuts to make up for the savings lost with the other labor group having approved their contracts.

Finally, if AA managment really wanted to put the screws to the pilot group they could now use bankruptcy to impose a new more favorable contract for AA, dump the pensions for the pilot group, and merge with US before exiting bankruptcy. This would give any new managment more leverage allwoing them keep the imposed AA pilot contract in place as an incentive/tool to bring all the pilot groups together under one new contract.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13135 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15481 times:
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I expected this, but it will have a cost for the pilots. I expect them to sit down and hammer out a *slightly* better deal. But first AA should sign contracts with all the other groups before showing that a "no" vote means better terms.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

Will management have a choice? Really bad operations will drive away customers. Today it is *really* easy for a company to blacklist an airline. Just a few mouse clicks...

Does anyone have AA's cash flow burn rate? It must be pretty high at this point.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinexjet From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 492 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15419 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
benefits of unionized action like Pilots do

I understand your point. But also understand that the unions that pilots are a part of are bound by the Railway Labor Act. This law really limits the actions that unions can take on their own behalf.

Also, in my opinion, the TA would have placed AA pilots at the bottom of the standard for major airline pilots in many areas. Especially scope, and regarding the B-scale for A319 flying. This is a giant concession. If an 1113c motion is granted, it is only valid during the bankruptcy. The TA would have been in effect for 6 years. Voting this TA down subjects AMR pilots to a possible 1113c ruling, but gets them back to the negotiating table faster.

I think everyone realizes this, but just to reiterate... the judge may grant the 113c motion, but that doesn't mean that the AMR "term sheet" would be ordered into effect. That's what the company will ask for, I'm sure. In fact, the judge could just order the terms of this rejected TA into effect.

Sometimes I feel that pilots get labeled as a bunch of whiners on here, but that truly isn't the case.  The pilots of AA are a very experienced group of aviators that have been around the block in this industry. They saw what happened to UA pilots when they voted to help avoid bankruptcy. That has yielded 10 years of rough times at UAL. AA pilots don't want to see the same happen to their pilot group.


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15325 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 6):
That may happen but its just as likely the court will impose a contract that is current industry standard...
Quoting crAAzy (Reply 7):
Finally, if AA managment really wanted to put the screws to the pilot group they could now use bankruptcy to impose a new more favorable contract for AA, dump the pensions for the pilot group

As I recall the process, the court doesn't impose a contract on the union, rather the court allows the company to impose it's "1113 terms." Also, IIRC, the Judge is already scheduled to rule on AMR's request to do that on August 15.

I heard the voting numbers were that 96.5 percent voted, and it was rejected 61 to 39 percent.

I also understand that there is some discussion as to whether APA can immediately strike if the company imposes a contract that wasn't formed within the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. From what I recall of the RLA, this situation isn't addressed, but I'll take another look. Does anyone know of any precedent that would apply?



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15139 times:

I think the pilots would have rejected anything they were offered. It seems they just hate management and want a US merger.

I was on an AA flight before and i still remember exactly how openly a pilot and flight attendant were publicly slamming management who both said they hope they merge with US so they can replace the current "bums". Personally i though it was a little "classless" to have such a conversation in uniform on an AA flight but i think it seems to be the majority opinion nowdays among employees. The union just represents the employees opinions dont blame them the individual employees hate the management


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15119 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

Interesting. We just saw an arbitrator impose management's contract on labor at Air Canada, and not much notice of that was taken here on a.net, nor have we seen any action on the part of the union, other than the predictable press statements full of outrage. Perhaps the Canadians are just too polite?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15082 times:

For those of us who don't follow the court issues more closely, what is the scope with the Airbuses?

Also, I know that the unions worked out an agreement with Parker; but I do have to wonder why. While he is saying that all this will be good, he still hasn't worked out the issues from the last time he merged with someone. It would seem that the issues with US pilots should show current AA pilots what the issues might and could become versus what D. Parker is saying on paper.



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14894 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Interesting. We just saw an arbitrator impose management's contract on labor at Air Canada, and not much notice of that was taken here on a.net, nor have we seen any action on the part of the union, other than the predictable press statements full of outrage. Perhaps the Canadians are just too polite?

The Railway Labor Act applies to U.S. companies, not Canadian ones. IOW, it's a different process. Furthermore, AA's situation and workgroups are different that ACs. IMHO, there's a lot more animosity at AMR.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14805 times:

Quoting xjet (Reply 9):
Voting this TA down subjects AMR pilots to a possible 1113c ruling, but gets them back to the negotiating table faster.

Not necessarily. Go read the letter that was sent to the pilots upon the decision to send the TA to a ratification vote. It is the opinion of APA's own legal advisors that AA could emerge from bankruptcy without a deal with the pilots. Furthermore, it was the opinion of APA's legal advisors that without a contract APA's claim against the AA estate would be compromised and therefore APA could very well be superseded by the other unsecured creditors. Without a TA and post-abrogation, AA holds all the cards.


Quoting flyhossd (Reply 10):
I also understand that there is some discussion as to whether APA can immediately strike if the company imposes a contract that wasn't formed within the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. From what I recall of the RLA, this situation isn't addressed, but I'll take another look. Does anyone know of any precedent that would apply?

Yes, the matter has been litigated. See Northwest versus its FA union. The court abrogated the FA contract. The FA unions engaged in a work stoppage (CHAOS). Northwest was granted an injunction against the work action. An appeal court upheld the injunction, after determining that the FA contract had been "legally" terminated.


User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 600 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14154 times:

I'm not completely knowledgable about AA's labor arrangements, but I do think the pilots shot themselves in the foot a bit today.

The pilots need to stop counting on Doug Parker to be their knight in shining armor, and they need to find a way to get on good (or at least better) terms with AA management. Especially if all the other labor groups approve their new contracts, it puts the pilots in a bad light, and the bankruptcy judge seems more likely to look unfavorably on a pilot union holdout.

Just my   



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 882 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14124 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
I was on an AA flight before and i still remember exactly how openly a pilot and flight attendant were publicly slamming management who both said they hope they merge with US so they can replace the current "bums". Personally i though it was a little "classless" to have such a conversation in uniform on an AA flight but i think it seems to be the majority opinion nowdays among employees. The union just represents the employees opinions dont blame them the individual employees hate the management

Anyone who does this to their company while in uniform and at work should be liable to be fired on the spot.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13927 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):
And what industry even has Pensions anymore in the first place ?

Mine does...and we EARN it!


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13821 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):
And what industry even has Pensions anymore in the first place ?

Seriously!?

Senior airline management!

See the downfall of Don Carty. IIRC, "retention bonuses" were at issue, too.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13788 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

And the last time the AA pilots did something like that who won? And what was the price tag of the action?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13715 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
and they also feel that this will pressure AA more into a US merger, where they obviously have a lot to gain based on the agreement they reached with Parker.

That's my main read. I think they're trying to force the merger.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 20):
And the last time the AA pilots did something like that who won? And what was the price tag of the action?

the situation is different. Management has more to lose than the pilots have. The pilots have a TA with Parker that they like. If they don't get the contract they like from AA, they are betting that AA will have no choice but to hop in bed with US. On the other hand, AA management has the airline to lose and they don't really have a fallback.


User currently offlineaaexecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 635 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13656 times:

If I remember correctly, this was expected. According to the rumor that AA was a long way down the road toward acquiring B6, AA is merely needing labor agreements to be finalized in order to move on the acquisition. Reportedly, the pilots were told by one of their own and were widely expected to reject the offer with the rationale that a new better offer would very quickly be reached in order for AA to be able to move on the B6 acquisition.

User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13590 times:

Quoting N353SK (Reply 4):
What other industry has lost 40% of their salaries and 100% of their pensions?

You're right. Most have lost WAY more.

NS


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13478 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
That makes sense, but I don't think it'll happen. I'm betting AA management is scared of what would happen operationally if the judge imposes a contract.

EASTERN. They will be about 2 steps from Eastern with an imposed contract (s).



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
25 MaverickM11 : I just don't see how USAPA + APA = anything other than a murder-suicide. The idea that any union is looking to a merger for salvation, with US of all
26 aaexecplat : Of course they would. That said, it is unlikely that AA wants to stick it to the pilots. But they have to pretend to want to impose terms or else the
27 DashTrash : I think it was in the Mesaba bankruptcy that the judge ruled labor groups cannot strike after a contract is imposed through an 1113c motion. Don't qu
28 LDVAviation : You must not remember what happened last time. The judge saw through all of APA's excuses.
29 einsteinboricua : Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They took cuts back when Carty was CEO and they got stabbed in the back. I don't blame them f
30 MaverickM11 : I don't think pilots understand how many measured data points they give off every second of every minute they're on the job--they do anything repeate
31 aaexecplat : Honestly...if you are really a college student, you have ZERO clue how the economy has changed since 2001. Most people would have been fortunate to h
32 phxa340 : Way to completely miss my point. If we can just get out of the mindset of being so Airline-Centric, you will realize other industries have lost WAY m
33 Post contains links flyhossd : Hey, you asked! I was surprised that you asked such an easy question. And this just happens to be an "Airline-Centric" forum (a.k.a. www.airliners.ne
34 Post contains images TVNWZ : But, it has nine lives.
35 stratosphere : Well I wouldn't expect a VP of marketing to understand how the common worker continues to be screwed. While you make valid points and there will alwa
36 flyhossd : So far, so good. It's been a tough economy on a lot of industries. When it comes to the AA pilots - that is what this thread is about after all - tha
38 DashTrash : No, I remember well. APA staged a sick out. It was fairly obvious. Most do. Airlines have drug the pilots to court for all sorts of things. Sick call
39 skedguy : Oh, the pilots have a lot to lose. I give tens of thousands of dollars in business to AA every year out of my own pocket, and I'm steaming mad about
40 chepos : You are steaming mad the pilots rejected the LBFO and you are a passenger? If your flight is on time and gets from point A to point B what do you car
41 PRAirbus : More leverage for AA management by voting down their offer. Surely FAs will vote NO too. Most likely AA management will get a better SCOPE clause and
42 DocLightning : They reached a TA with US, didn't they? And I guarantee that if AA has to fold to US, the new AA will still be AA, have an Eagle, and a DFW hub. US i
43 ROSWELL41 : Horton and the rest off senior AMR management are going to lose control of their enterprise if the FA's reject their TA and the judge abrogrates both
44 AAplat4life : Per the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, DFW and ORD were the only two pilot bases voting for the new contract. I think the large vote against the contract wi
45 einsteinboricua : Because all college students are anti capitalist freaks who simply waste their time in their own fantasy land, right? I may be a college student, but
46 MaverickM11 : Did that include the combined seniority list? In other words pilots have no leverage, unless they can magically give everyone the flu.
47 Revelation : Right, but we have seen that courts will punish union leaders severely till the "spike" subsides. I don't see it. I'm sure the judge will listen to r
48 EaglePower83 : ALL of management needs to take a haircut too if they want labor to play ball. My last company did that in the recession. All staff took 10% pay cuts,
49 DashTrash : I've never once seen a union "leader" get punished for anything. I've seen a case where DAL pilots stopped picking up open time on their own accord a
50 incitatus : This thread is much about nothing. The judge has full latitude and will impose the agreement that was voted down. That gives the AA pilots a solid sta
51 BigJKU : If their cost are too high how have they been severely burned? It sounds to me like they were not burned enough and that is the problem.
52 norcal : Which is problematic because AMR will not be able to find pilots to staff these aircraft at any regional. There is a shortage coming and regionals ar
53 LDVAviation : They did no such thing. And, funny how it was obvious to you, but not to the APA, or even the judge after the first hearing on the matter. In the fir
54 Post contains links SATexan : In related news, David Bates, the President of APA has resigned.... http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/2...n-at-american-airlines-resigns.ece
55 MaverickM11 : Didn't the same thing happen to USAPA more or less? Crazy. The union isn't in control of the situation, nor is AA, nor is US. Disaster all around.
56 TWA85 : What will be the next course of action for both AA and the APA? Was this TA truly the last offer? AA obviously wants a consensual labor contract with
57 Acey559 : I disagree. Captain Bates was a big proponent of the TA and did everything he could to get it passed. The pilot group has different priorities and as
58 william : Thank you for explaining the reasons the Pilot group voted this down. Why agree to a long term concessionary contract when one does not have too.
59 DashTrash : My understanding was that APA staged the sickout. If I'm wrong, great. I'm not too big to admit I might have my wires crossed. The court hearings you
60 LDVAviation : You have to understand his frustration. Bates told the pilots in his letter that the union would lose much of its leverage if they did not approve a
61 lightsaber : Question: Does this rejection have any possible impact on the new aircraft coming in house? Source? I would think the business jet companies who make
62 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I think you just agreed with me The APA leadership isn't in step with the pilots, AMR certainly isn't
63 flyhossd : I'm speaking first from personal experience. IIRC, 3 times in the last 12 months, I've had a regional airline flight cancelled for lack of pilots. Se
64 TWA85 : Does this loss of leverage by the pilots reduce the chances of AA merging with US regardless if it is before or after exiting bankruptcy?
65 Acey559 : haha Sorry, I must have read what you put incorrectly. After re-reading I see what you're saying, and I agree!
66 ckfred : I've always believed in taking what you can get and learning to make the best of the situation. Apparently, the APA membership that voted against the
67 IndustryInsider : How about all those other people that also lost their jobs. Do you think they are all consider themselves better people because of it?
68 aluminumtubing : AA may very well put the draconian 1113 in place. I am hoping they do not, as this would definitely be the beginning of the end of AA in it's present
69 cbphoto : I am not sure what you mean by a "business jet company?" If you are talking about the likes of Gulfstream, well they are no longer around (in that fo
70 Acey559 : Sign me up! I'm hearing a lot about this issue right now. One of our ALPA reps attended a training conference out in DC last month and ExpressJet was
71 freakyrat : A crew shortage affected one of my Eagle flights from DFW-LIT last month. In checking FlightAware it seems that this same flight had been chronically
72 Post contains images Acey559 : Funny you say that, crew scheduling called me today (Friday) on my day off to junior man me. I didn't have to take it but I wasn't doing anything and
73 Super80DFW : Eagle is chronically short staffed on the ground as well, especially at DFW. We're all in this together!
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